I belong to a mom's group and last night we had a moms' night out. It's amazing where a conversation can go when you don't have kids to distract you.
An atheist (me!), an agnostic, a Christian and a somewhat crazy person of questionable spirituality sat around a table having a drink and basking in our temporary childlessness. The "crazyish" person said she was a licensed hypnotherapist and I immediately jumped on it since I just read Many Lives, Many Masters about regressive hypnotherapy. She immediately started talking about what a great book it was, to the point that I became a bit uncomfortable when she asked for my opinion and I told her I thought the story was not only unlikely, but that the spiritual messages within the book were also very trite.
Anyway, she took it well and went on to say that she's had experiences and believes what she believes and is confident in that, etc. She went on to tell me how she has predicted several deaths, how she knew the instant her brother was killed (though he was several hundred miles away), and how his spirit even lived in her body for 3 months. She also went on to say that she knows that she and her brother were married in a past life (weird, right?), but how she has never "known" her mother before this life, and that is why they don't jive very well.
She was good natured about that fact that I was clearly skeptical. While her experience doesn't make me doubt my faithlessness, I get confused with conversations such as these. People are so CERTAIN that they have had spiritual/supernatural/psychic experiences. You can't argue with personal experience. When I speak with people whose convictions are this strong, I almost have trouble not believing them. However, I don't believe in it. How do I resolve this? What have you done when you encounter this?
Another question that I'm curious about: Do you think that psychic abilities are necessarily supernatural? Do you think a psychic connection or experience is possible within an atheistic worldview?
Please discuss!
I once read an atheist's account of how he knew the precise moment when his father died unexpectedly, even though they were separated by thousands of miles with no communication. The time of death was later confirmed (according to his account) by family members. This doesn't have to be supernatural, but it may fall in line with philosopher David Chalmers' idea that consciousness itself is a fundamental aspect of reality, like space-time. If so, our brains may act as sorts of receivers that can pick up on information existing within the conscious framework of the universe.
There are people who insist on:
having being abducted by aliens
having had a near death experience
having had previous lifes
having seen ghosts
having been possessed by demons
having seen loch ness
having seen big foot
having aliens travel down to their farm and create crop circles
having been visited by Jesus
having been visited by Allah
having been visited by YHWH
having been visited by dead relatives
having been raised from the dead
being able to read people's minds
being able to cure people
being able to harm people with black magic
If we believe anecdotal stories without questioning, without engaging reason and asking for evidence then we are open to believing anything that sounds good, this will distract us from knowing the real truth
There are various psychological and medical explanations for how someone could honestly believe they had an experience when they really didn't have one. False memories due to a traumatic event; sleep paralysis, etc. So, I don't have issues discounting what someone honestly claims to be true if it doesn't fit reality as I perceive it; even less reason to accept them if the average person doesn't claim to have had a similar experience.
As for psychic powers...I'm going with no. JREF has been trying to find a true psychic for years an not a single one of them has been able to demonstrate psychic ability under controlled conditions.
Quote from: Whitney on November 19, 2011, 12:03:52 AM
As for psychic powers...I'm going with no. JREF has been trying to find a true psychic for years an not a single one of them has been able to demonstrate psychic ability under controlled conditions.
Psychic powers - yes, I agree. Psychic phenomena in general - I don't know. There may be something analogous to the Uncertainty Principle where psychic phenomena are concerned. If you know X (or do X or force X) you can't know Y. Controlled experiments (as currently conceived) may not be valid because they cause us to know (or do or force) X. If we had any sense at all of what consciousness even is, we could make strong statements. But we haven't the foggiest idea what consciousness is. Let's start there, with that question. Let's figure out what consciousness is. Then, armed with that knowledge, let's consider the question of psychic phenomena.
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on November 19, 2011, 12:24:14 AMBut we haven't the foggiest idea what consciousness is.
I have a foggy idea as to what consciousness is, but I have lots of foggy ideas.
What's the big deal about conciousness anyway?
The dolphin machine has less than us, our computers may soon have more.
We know our brains can be fooled, especially if we welcome delusion.
You may consider my conversations with a pudding I'm quantumly entangled with in the Andromeda galaxy as supernatural, but it isn't.
I don't think there's anything more to this topic other than intuition in some cases, even if unconscious.
As for those weird stories about people having those wierd moments of insight at just the right moment - I don't know, but it isn't statistically significant. For every one person who was able to weirdly predict someone else's death, millions do not.
Quote...he knew the precise moment when his father died unexpectedly...
Was he ill? I ask because I'm curious to know whether it was indeed very unexpected.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 19, 2011, 03:00:32 AM
Quote...he knew the precise moment when his father died unexpectedly...
Was he ill? I ask because I'm curious to know whether it was indeed very unexpected.
According to him, his father wasn't ill - totally unexpected. The atheist's forum name is "duckphup." He's shown up on several fora. He doesn't like me, so if you find him and mention me, he'll say something nasty. But you can get the story from him, if you can find him.
I saw an episode of 'Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman' a few months back, which mentioned several experiments which have been conducted that could have potentially proved that the human brain can send and receive messages from other brains. I can't remember all the experiments as they mentioned quite a few, but one of them involved two people in completely dark rooms next to each other. Basically, both of their brains were hooked up to monitors and when the light was turned on in just one room, both of the people's brain activity spiked at the same time even though nothing had changed for one person. I don't immediately accept it, but I don't reject it either. The brain, after all, is nothing but a series of electrical impulses. Electrical currents produce magnetic fields, i believe it's not impossible that they could also produce some other type of field that other brains can receive.
In another interesting one, participants brain waves were measured while they were shown a series of images. Half of the images were supposed to elicit strong emotional responses (either good or bad) while half were of neutral images. They found that, not surprisingly, when they changed from one type of image to the other, the brain activity changed as soon as the picture did. The only exception came when the picture involved something sexual. In this case, their brain waves actually spiked a split second before the image came up! The experimenters believed this showed that we have actually evolved a sense of foresight when it comes to reproduction.
Quote from: Good and Godless on November 18, 2011, 10:00:37 PMAnother question that I'm curious about: Do you think that psychic abilities are necessarily supernatural? Do you think a psychic connection or experience is possible within an atheistic worldview?
Please discuss!
I'll tackle this part. Psychic experiences (at least mine) can be explained as events predictable with some certainty. Every so often, I will have a dream about something insignificant that happens the following day or in the very near future. Nothing that will happen in the event is new information. For example, I can't possibly dream about the winning lottery numbers, but it isn't uncommon to know a rather mundane conversation from start to finish.
Two hypotheses:
1.) My brain randomly and subconsciously connects new information or intentions with solidified patterns in my life, then refines and visualizes a future event with a very high probability of occurring. Everyone's brain does the first part (you can predict behavior and "where this is going" with a fair amount of certainty), I just get HD video and some advance warning.
2.) My brain randomly and subconsciously connects new information or intentions with solidified patterns in my life, then forms/visualizes a scenario which turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. A lack of free will could explain how I've only avoided a few situations at the last minute, but it could also be the lack of knowing when the event will occur (and simply not being ready for it at every moment of the day).
I'm not qualified to speak about much psychic or neurological activity, but I can state that some premonitions are simply involuntary calculations on a large scale. As stated, they aren't particularly useful, and it's near impossible to tell when the event will occur.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 19, 2011, 03:00:32 AM
I don't think there's anything more to this topic other than intuition in some cases, even if unconscious.
Yes, but what is intuition?
I don't posit a supernatural realm. I figure all is nature and nature is all. But what are the limits of nature? Do we know them?
See my next post, responding to something interesting someone shared.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 19, 2011, 05:26:40 AM
Basically, both of their brains were hooked up to monitors and when the light was turned on in just one room, both of the people's brain activity spiked at the same time even though nothing had changed for one person. I don't immediately accept it, but I don't reject it either.
If it happened, it happened. The question is, how? By what mechanism?
By the way - great user name! 8)
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 19, 2011, 05:26:40 AM
The only exception came when the picture involved something sexual. In this case, their brain waves actually spiked a split second before the image came up! The experimenters believed this showed that we have actually evolved a sense of foresight when it comes to reproduction.
Very interesting! :)
If and when we come to an understanding of the nature of consciousness, we'll better understand how time (in this instance) and space (in the prior one you cited) can sometimes pose less of a hindrance than we might otherwise expect.
None of this will be supernatural. We will simply have learned something new about nature and the potency thereof.
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on November 19, 2011, 10:49:47 AM
By the way - great user name! 8)
Thanks :)
Quote
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 19, 2011, 05:26:40 AM
The only exception came when the picture involved something sexual. In this case, their brain waves actually spiked a split second before the image came up! The experimenters believed this showed that we have actually evolved a sense of foresight when it comes to reproduction.
Very interesting! :)
If and when we come to an understanding of the nature of consciousness, we'll better understand how time (in this instance) and space (in the prior one you cited) can sometimes pose less of a hindrance than we might otherwise expect.
None of this will be supernatural. We will simply have learned something new about nature and the potency thereof.
I agree that it is presumptuous to just assume that things we don't understand are supernatural. If you went back in time and proved quantum fluctuations to people a few hundred years back you would have been accused of witchcraft.
For anyone who's interested, here is a link to the episode I was referring to: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/through-the-wormhole-is-there-a-sixth-sense/.
Great discussion so far. I agree that we have yet to discover what our brains are truly capable of, and just because we don't understand it, we shouldn't call it supernatural (look where that's gotten us!).
I had this conversation with my husband and a couple of his points were:
1. Everyone has a different reality based on their genetics and personal experiences. We can't really know what this woman's reality is and why she came to the conclusions she did. Her experiences are anecdotal, at best. Exaggerations or fabrications, most likely.
2. She might be a very anxious person who "predicts" people's death all the time and just happens to occasionally get it right.
3. Her brother's soul "living in her" was probably just her manifestation and interpretation of some intense grief.
I also just read an interesting piece about religious revelation and it argued that revelation is revelation to the person (such as Muhammad) who claims it ONLY. To everyone else, it is simply hearsay and we have not obligation to accept it as revelation.
Anyway, thanks for all the thoughts. Keep them coming!
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 19, 2011, 03:10:14 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 19, 2011, 03:00:32 AM
Quote...he knew the precise moment when his father died unexpectedly...
Was he ill? I ask because I'm curious to know whether it was indeed very unexpected.
According to him, his father wasn't ill - totally unexpected. The atheist's forum name is "duckphup." He's shown up on several fora. He doesn't like me, so if you find him and mention me, he'll say something nasty. But you can get the story from him, if you can find him.
Yeah...that is odd. But I don't know, the problem with these sorts of anecdotal stories is that is isn't good evidence. People are selective about what they remember and how they remember it. Could've been just a case of extreme bad luck, when he anxiously thought of his father dying and he did. The bad thing is that there isn't much to go on to get the bigger picture other than what he says...
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on November 19, 2011, 10:42:10 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 19, 2011, 03:00:32 AM
I don't think there's anything more to this topic other than intuition in some cases, even if unconscious.
Yes, but what is intuition?
I don't posit a supernatural realm. I figure all is nature and nature is all. But what are the limits of nature? Do we know them?
If I would guess, it's the mechanism from which the brain unconsciously analyses stored brain information, hard-wired or learned, to construct a mental situation and act accordingly. I don't think there's anything supernatural about it, just based on what goes on unconsciously, with the result being conscious.
As for nature...I have no idea ;D All those potential unknown unknowables out there...
Quote from: Good and Godless on November 19, 2011, 03:26:10 PM
2. She might be a very anxious person who "predicts" people's death all the time and just happens to occasionally get it right.
Yes! That's the main point. Though due to confirmation bias she'll choose to believe only that the ones that she got right to be significant and that will form the basis for that belief system.
Quote3. Her brother's soul "living in her" was probably just her manifestation and interpretation of some intense grief.
You might want to look up simulacrum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacrum). The evolutionary explanation for this is because we have evolved theory of mind.
This is an interesting topic, even though I find it somewhat agonising (I've known too many stupid people).
Quote from: Good and Godless on November 19, 2011, 03:26:10 PM
Great discussion so far. I agree that we have yet to discover what our brains are truly capable of, and just because we don't understand it, we shouldn't call it supernatural (look where that's gotten us!).
I had this conversation with my husband and a couple of his points were:
1. Everyone has a different reality based on their genetics and personal experiences. We can't really know what this woman's reality is and why she came to the conclusions she did. Her experiences are anecdotal, at best. Exaggerations or fabrications, most likely.
2. She might be a very anxious person who "predicts" people's death all the time and just happens to occasionally get it right.
3. Her brother's soul "living in her" was probably just her manifestation and interpretation of some intense grief.
I also just read an interesting piece about religious revelation and it argued that revelation is revelation to the person (such as Muhammad) who claims it ONLY. To everyone else, it is simply hearsay and we have not obligation to accept it as revelation.
Anyway, thanks for all the thoughts. Keep them coming!
She is more than likely mentally ill - a significant proportion of the worlds population is. Lots of highly deluded people can operate normally at face value - hence your reluctance to immediately dismiss her claims as delusional pap. Some people are very convincing. Lack of knowledge plus convincing preachers started religion.
As for psyhcic abilities, I'm not convinced such a thing would be necessarily god given. We have a lot to learn about our brains, our mental strenth is still evolving, who knows what we may be capable of in the future? You can't rule out psi ability totally, even though we so far have no concrete evidence of anybody possessing any that they can use at will.
Quote from: Good and Godless on November 18, 2011, 10:00:37 PM
Another question that I'm curious about: Do you think that psychic abilities are necessarily supernatural? Do you think a psychic connection or experience is possible within an atheistic worldview?
Please discuss!
Here's a story my mother's side of the family has been dining out on for nearly 70 years: When my mother was 10, her mother had a dream that she went to the well to draw water for the family breakfast, but instead of a bucket full of water she brought up a bucket full of blood. As soon as she woke up, grandma ran down the street to tell her cousin this dream (the cousin had a reputation for being able to interpret dreams). The cousin said it meant that in 3 days someone in her family would die violently. Three days later, her husband was killed in a mine cave in.
Grandma took every dream she had after that very seriously, tho this is the only instance I know of that she "dreamed true", as they say. Myself, I have absolutely no theories about this -- I consider it one of the many, many things I know nothing about. I do know I find the supernatural a hard concept to wrap my mind around no matter how many odd things happen or appear to happen.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 20, 2011, 06:14:58 PM
Quote from: Good and Godless on November 18, 2011, 10:00:37 PM
Another question that I'm curious about: Do you think that psychic abilities are necessarily supernatural? Do you think a psychic connection or experience is possible within an atheistic worldview?
Please discuss!
Here's a story my mother's side of the family has been dining out on for nearly 70 years: When my mother was 10, her mother had a dream that she went to the well to draw water for the family breakfast, but instead of a bucket full of water she brought up a bucket full of blood. As soon as she woke up, grandma ran down the street to tell her cousin this dream (the cousin had a reputation for being able to interpret dreams). The cousin said it meant that in 3 days someone in her family would die violently. Three days later, her husband was killed in a mine cave in.
Grandma took every dream she had after that very seriously, tho this is the only instance I know of that she "dreamed true", as they say. Myself, I have absolutely no theories about this -- I consider it one of the many, many things I know nothing about. I do know I find the supernatural a hard concept to wrap my mind around no matter how many odd things happen or appear to happen.
:o
Whoa.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 20, 2011, 06:14:58 PM
Quote from: Good and Godless on November 18, 2011, 10:00:37 PM
Another question that I'm curious about: Do you think that psychic abilities are necessarily supernatural? Do you think a psychic connection or experience is possible within an atheistic worldview?
Please discuss!
Here's a story my mother's side of the family has been dining out on for nearly 70 years: When my mother was 10, her mother had a dream that she went to the well to draw water for the family breakfast, but instead of a bucket full of water she brought up a bucket full of blood. As soon as she woke up, grandma ran down the street to tell her cousin this dream (the cousin had a reputation for being able to interpret dreams). The cousin said it meant that in 3 days someone in her family would die violently. Three days later, her husband was killed in a mine cave in.
Grandma took every dream she had after that very seriously, tho this is the only instance I know of that she "dreamed true", as they say. Myself, I have absolutely no theories about this -- I consider it one of the many, many things I know nothing about. I do know I find the supernatural a hard concept to wrap my mind around no matter how many odd things happen or appear to happen.
Events of this nature (I'm assuming that the story you have heard is true - no reason to think otherwise at this point) could be explained by an
a priori consciousness theory along the lines suggested by philosopher David Chalmers. If consciousness as a whole is fundamental to the universe, then individuals might pick up on bits and pieces of it from time to time, since we have complex brains that are themselves self-aware. You wouldn't have to call it "supernatural," as consciousness would just be seen as a part of the fabric of the universe, like space-time.
If I ever get a yacht I think I'll call it Confirmation Bias.
I'll probably never own a yacht, I suppose I could give my kayak a name.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on November 21, 2011, 12:39:20 AM
If I ever get a yacht I think I'll call it Confirmation Bias.
I'll probably never own a yacht, I suppose I could give my kayak a name.
Slippery Fish?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 19, 2011, 03:10:14 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 19, 2011, 03:00:32 AM
Quote...he knew the precise moment when his father died unexpectedly...
Was he ill? I ask because I'm curious to know whether it was indeed very unexpected.
According to him, his father wasn't ill - totally unexpected. The atheist's forum name is "duckphup." He's shown up on several fora. He doesn't like me, so if you find him and mention me, he'll say something nasty. But you can get the story from him, if you can find him.
Well, this is questionable at best.
For instance, did he tell someone he knew his father was dead before being informed of it? Or did he connect a sudden pang of depression, possibly caused, and possibly caused without his realising it, by seeing a merry-go-round which reminded him of the first schoolyard beating he recieved or something like that? Or was he perhaps kinda' down, decided to call daddy and was informed of his death? Beause then it just boils down to finding patterns in all the wrong places.
I'm open to the idea of a naturalized kind of "psychic powers", based on two personal experiences that I've been trying to figure out. Feel free to pick apart my examples, because I'm open to any kind of explanation for these things.
1)My husband and I have lived in an apartment building for years. There are always people coming and going in our apartment building, but one of our cats, Rocky, always seems to know when one of us is coming home. Almost always, about 30 seconds or so before one of us gets to our floor, he'll jump up from wherever he is and go sit by the door. He'll do this long before the elevator has reached our floor (our apartment is the closest one to the elevator). It's eerie and I've been trying to figure out how he does it - one of our babysitters has even commented on it without either of us mentioning it to her. He'll do it, even if the person who is home doesn't know when the person who is out is coming home (so that we're not giving off unconscious signals that we're expecting someone to come in through the door).
I really wonder how he does it, but I can't come up with anything.
2) I swear, no matter what time my son wakes up, I wake up 15 minutes before he does. If he wakes up at 2:30 am, I'll wake up at around 2:15am. if he wakes up at 4:45 am, I'll wake up at 4:30am. A lot of the time he'll wake up the same time every day (around 6:30am, or so), so it makes sense to me as to why I'd wake up at a consistent time on those days, but I do the same thing when he's sleeping very sporadically or wakes up unexpectedly. The only thing I can think of to explain it is that he actually wakes at the same time that I do, and that he wakes me up somehow without me realizing it and is then completely silent for 15 minutes, but that seems kind of unlikely for a hungry/wet baby. The other thing I've thought is maybe I just wake up a whole LOT during the night and I don't remember the times that I eventually go back to sleep, but I think I'd be pretty tired if I spent most of the night in frequent 15 minute intervals of awake time. I've also asked my husband if he's noticed me awake at night more often since our son has been born, and he's said that I haven't, besides the times that I get up with him.
So I can't really figure that one out either.
Possible explanations?
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 21, 2011, 02:24:38 PM
Possible explanations?
I don't know about the waking up one (unless he starts making little noises in his sleep before waking that you pick up on in your sleep) but Temple Grandin wrote about cats and dogs appearing to know exactly when someone is near home in her book
Animals in Translation. She credits the superior hearing of cats and dogs which lets them pick up on signals at a distance human beings can't even imagine.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 21, 2011, 03:27:41 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 21, 2011, 02:24:38 PM
Possible explanations?
I don't know about the waking up one (unless he starts making little noises in his sleep before waking that you pick up on in your sleep) but Temple Grandin wrote about cats and dogs appearing to know exactly when someone is near home in her book Animals in Translation. She credits the superior hearing of cats and dogs which lets them pick up on signals at a distance human beings can't even imagine.
I watched a documentary once about a dog who always seemed to know when his owner was coming home, even if she borrowed a friend's car the dog had never heard before or arrived at a different and unexpected time. Makes me wonder what it is that the dog could possibly be hearing. ???
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 21, 2011, 04:27:26 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 21, 2011, 03:27:41 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 21, 2011, 02:24:38 PM
Possible explanations?
I don't know about the waking up one (unless he starts making little noises in his sleep before waking that you pick up on in your sleep) but Temple Grandin wrote about cats and dogs appearing to know exactly when someone is near home in her book Animals in Translation. She credits the superior hearing of cats and dogs which lets them pick up on signals at a distance human beings can't even imagine.
I watched a documentary once about a dog who always seemed to know when his owner was coming home, even if she borrowed a friend's car the dog had never heard before or arrived at a different and unexpected time. Makes me wonder what it is that the dog could possibly be hearing. ???
I agree that it could be that, but Rocky would have to be able to hear us from within the elevator several floors down most of the time (it takes about 10 seconds for the elevator doors to open and for us to reach our apartment door). Apart from him being able to distinguish our footsteps from every other person that walks by. Pretty incredible either way.
Yeah, maybe the way you turn the key, or open the door, or close the door or walk to the elevator. All subtle queues but personal signatures nonetheless.
And as for baby, have you noted down times, or are these patterns extracted from a whole string of wake/sleep cycles? Is your analysis of these times objective and scientific? Human sleep cycles are around 90 minutes long. This means that statistically around 1/6 of the times you arrive at lighter sleep stages you will be within 15 minutes of your babies' random wakefulness. And as we normally have around four of these cycles per night, it starts looking less freakish.
If I was to suggest that the number 34 is a magical number, you'd see it start popping up everywhere and marvel everytime it did... and completely ignore when a number 33 bus came past or you got 35c in change. I think personal superstitions feed from the same inputs as religion - it's about extracting patterns from random events.
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/hidden_messages_and_the_bible_code
http://www.nmsr.org/biblecod.htm
Sweet dreams... :-*
Well, my observations about waking up before my baby obviously aren't scientific or objectively quantifiable, I didn't really claim that they were.
The information about sleep patterns are interesting. Though, I am literally wide awake and staring at the ceiling for a good solid 10-15 minutes most nights/mornings before my son wakes up. I think that's a bit different than usual sleep fluctuations. Beyond that, I'm not a very superstitious person, and I don't think I really went looking for this pattern, I just came to notice it after a year or so of it happening. I don't talk about it to people in my life, or actively claim that we have some kind of "psychic link" or anything like that. There are no other aspects in our relationship where anything remotely like this happens, as far as I can tell.
The most likely scenario is that he's doing something to wake me up 10-15 minutes before I can consciously hear him, but I wish I could figure out what it is. Maybe, like clockwork, he kicks his wall or something 10 minutes before he wakes up. I just wish I knew because it's a weird thing and I'm curious. I need to get a camera in his room, the little dickens :P
I had a cat that had an eery way of anticipating our movements and laying down wherever we were going to go.. in front of the bathroom, near the kitchen, etc. It often seemed he knew are thoughts better than we did! I guess when you are a pet and all you do is eat, sleep, play and watch your owners, you might develop some "sixth-sense" type behaviors.
BooksCatsEtc- I loved Animals in Translation. I have seen Temple Grandin speak a couple of times, and she is really fascinating.
Determined Juliet- I also have a young baby (almost 6 months) as well as a 2 year old. My husband (who has weird working hours) sometimes jokes that he will come into bed and literally move me around with no response, but that one of my girls will fart in her sleep and I'll dart up like an alarm went off. I imagine you are right and that we are responding to some almost imperceptible sound or movement, but I also think I have developed something akin to a mother's intuition since becoming one. It's probably just hyper-sensitivity, but who really knows what are brains are capable of...?
I do agree that there are things about the human brain that we don't know about, but I do thing that most psychic whatchamacalit is a load of bull. I never really believed in Ouija boards or crystal balls.
Ecrub Noselrub- I really like the idea of a universal or collective consciousness. I don't know if I buy it or not...but it would explain a lot without necessarily requiring any kind of deity. I guess time and science will tell...
I have a pretty big coincidence that some of my religious family members certainly ascribe to divine power. My mother died of ovarian cancer 8 years ago. I got pregnant with my first baby several years later. Once my husband and I found out we were having a girl, we decided to give her my mother's first name as a middle name. My mother's name was June (she was born on June 1). My baby was due on July 1st. We were hoping she would come early so that the name June would be not only a tribute to my mother, but also timely.
After a very uneventful and even pleasant pregnancy, my water inexplicably broke on May 31 and I had my daughter early in the morning on June 1, my mom's birthday. It is special and meaningful, but I don't believe it is a "miracle," though some people describe it that way. I think it is just as likely that my mind subconsciously wanted it to happen that way, and that resulted in the early delivery. Either way, it's pretty cool, and I love that my mom lives on through my daughter via both the genetic and shared- birthday connection.
That is a really nice story, Good and Godless :)
Quote from: Good and Godless on November 21, 2011, 07:14:30 PM
Ecrub Noselrub- I really like the idea of a universal or collective consciousness. I don't know if I buy it or not...but it would explain a lot without necessarily requiring any kind of deity. I guess time and science will tell...
I have a pretty big coincidence that some of my religious family members certainly ascribe to divine power. My mother died of ovarian cancer 8 years ago. I got pregnant with my first baby several years later. Once my husband and I found out we were having a girl, we decided to give her my mother's first name as a middle name. My mother's name was June (she was born on June 1). My baby was due on July 1st. We were hoping she would come early so that the name June would be not only a tribute to my mother, but also timely.
After a very uneventful and even pleasant pregnancy, my water inexplicably broke on May 31 and I had my daughter early in the morning on June 1, my mom's birthday. It is special and meaningful, but I don't believe it is a "miracle," though some people describe it that way. I think it is just as likely that my mind subconsciously wanted it to happen that way, and that resulted in the early delivery. Either way, it's pretty cool, and I love that my mom lives on through my daughter via both the genetic and shared- birthday connection.
Nice story. Thanks.
Yes, a hearteningly serendipitous story.
How's this one:
My wifes mother died a few years before we met. The one plant from her house that survives to this day is a large and beloved lily now in our lounge. The summer we got married (six years ago) the lily bloomed with a single beautiful white flower for the first time ever. It has never bloomed since. My wife, being a Christian of sorts, believes it was her mother smiling on the wedding. I think it's another nice serendipitous story.
My wife also had a cat who was a pedigree Persian. The cat didn't much like people except my wife. When we started courting the cat wouldn't talk to me at all. One evening we spent watching a movie at her flat and the cat came and sat down on my lap which he had never done before - much to the amazement of my wife (then girlfriend). The cat died two days later. I have no doubt that the cat was acknowledging our relationship and sending us a message of approval - knowing he was leaving.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on November 21, 2011, 04:46:10 PM
Yeah, maybe the way you turn the key, or open the door, or close the door or walk to the elevator. All subtle queues but personal signatures nonetheless.
I should have mentioned this at the time, but I plain forgot -- in addition to hearing, Grandin also mentioned their sense of smell came into play picking up the approach of "their human" from a ridiculous distance away. And this is something I hadn't known -- cats sense of smell is far superior to dogs. They say cats would be amazing search animals if only they could be trained to do such things.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 20, 2011, 11:57:40 PM
(I'm assuming that the story you have heard is true - no reason to think otherwise at this point)
Well, that's the problem with handed down stories isn't it? Even if it is "true" as far as my Grandma's veracity and memory went, the story was already 20 yrs old by the time I first heard it and you know what can happen to a story during even 5 minutes of a game of Telephone. Plus there are changes that other tellers may not even be aware of making -- I leave off a lot from the original story because I consider it embellishment and beside the point, but a cousin might retell it adding in something he considers a given despite it not being in the original story he heard.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 22, 2011, 01:07:14 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 20, 2011, 11:57:40 PM
(I'm assuming that the story you have heard is true - no reason to think otherwise at this point)
Well, that's the problem with handed down stories isn't it? Even if it is "true" as far as my Grandma's veracity and memory went, the story was already 20 yrs old by the time I first heard it and you know what can happen to a story during even 5 minutes of a game of Telephone. Plus there are changes that other tellers may not even be aware of making -- I leave off a lot from the original story because I consider it embellishment and beside the point, but a cousin might retell it adding in something he considers a given despite it not being in the original story he heard.
Yes, that is the problem. You take a story with a grain of salt. The closer you get to a person who has first-hand knowledge of what happened, the more credible it is - assuming that the person is one of general truthful character.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 22, 2011, 02:48:13 AM
Yes, that is the problem. You take a story with a grain of salt. The closer you get to a person who has first-hand knowledge of what happened, the more credible it is - assuming that the person is one of general truthful character.
Even then you're not quite in the clear -- suppose they're generally truthful, but gullible? And lets not even get into the whole mess of how easily people sincerely fool themselves.
Great stories, Scissorlegs. Just out of curiosity, how do interpret/explain the lily story? Or do you just let it sit as a nice, serendipitous coincidence?
Sometimes, I think just allowing for a meaningful coincidence is perfectly fine. I'm not a scientist (by trade, at least), so I'm okay with simply appreciating something that seems purposeful, even if it is just happenstance.
Quote from: Good and Godless on November 22, 2011, 02:22:39 PM
Great stories, Scissorlegs. Just out of curiosity, how do interpret/explain the lily story? Or do you just let it sit as a nice, serendipitous coincidence?
Sometimes, I think just allowing for a meaningful coincidence is perfectly fine. I'm not a scientist (by trade, at least), so I'm okay with simply appreciating something that seems purposeful, even if it is just happenstance.
Well, I can't really bring myself to believe in some supernatural message, so I have to satisfy myself with it being just a happy coincidence. Maybe there were some coincidental conditions that particular year that were good for the plant, maybe it was watered more, or fed more, or more sunshine, or more suitable temperatures, or maybe it fed off some positive energy in the house due to our excitement at getting married. There are countless variables - too many for me to put it down to a divine message. The 'God of the gaps' theory springs to mind here, whereby a gap in understanding is automatically filled with the divine. I won't get sucked in by this, however attractive a thought it might be. In any case my wife likes to believe - it makes her feel connected to her mother who is sadly missed. I'm happy to let that stand for her sake.