So I have been invited to attend a Baptism by a close family member for their 8 month old kid (first one i have been invited to). I really don't like the idea of attending these things, it seems wrong to watch a kid that is too young to think for themselves be initiated as a church member without consent (to me its equally as stupid as piercing a baby's ear when they arn't even old enough to consent). I also would feel like the biggest hypocrite standing up there with the rest of the family promising that I will do my best to help this child in their "walk with god" when I don't intend on doing anything of the sort. I agreed to go to the after party for the baptism (skip the church part) but I got a phone call saying I MUST be present at the church and witness the ritual. Am I within my right for feeling uncomfortable with this ? or Am I making way to big of a deal and should suck it up ?
what do you guys think ?
Do the parents know that you're an atheist?
I don't think your out of line in any way for feeling uncomfortable. You can be there for the kid without having to contribute to his 'walk with god'. I would be insulted if a family member did the same to me and told me I HAD to go to the service. Frankly, a baptism sounds fucking awful. Can't say I've had the displeasure of being invited to one.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 02, 2011, 07:49:59 PM
Do the parents know that you're an atheist?
Yes this is a good question. Even if they don't it still irks me they would tell you that you have to be there.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 02, 2011, 07:52:51 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 02, 2011, 07:49:59 PM
Do the parents know that you're an atheist?
Yes this is a good question. Even if they don't it still irks me they would tell you that you have to be there.
I would see it as a bit disrespectful if they knew that you were an atheist, but still insisted that you attend and take part in their rituals. Unless they're the type that don't think much of it, and are open-minded enough to attend godless reunions or take part in rituals of other religions that they don't share. I couldn't hold anything against those types of people.
Quote from: no_god_know_peace on November 02, 2011, 07:47:00 PM
So I have been invited to attend a Baptism by a close family member for their 8 month old kid (first one i have been invited to). I really don't like the idea of attending these things, it seems wrong to watch a kid that is too young to think for themselves be initiated as a church member without consent (to me its equally as stupid as piercing a baby's ear when they arn't even old enough to consent). I also would feel like the biggest hypocrite standing up there with the rest of the family promising that I will do my best to help this child in their "walk with god" when I don't intend on doing anything of the sort. I agreed to go to the after party for the baptism (skip the church part) but I got a phone call saying I MUST be present at the church and witness the ritual. Am I within my right for feeling uncomfortable with this ? or Am I making way to big of a deal and should suck it up ?
what do you guys think ?
I think you need to suck it up I'm afraid :(
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 02, 2011, 07:56:17 PM
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 02, 2011, 07:52:51 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 02, 2011, 07:49:59 PM
Do the parents know that you're an atheist?
Yes this is a good question. Even if they don't it still irks me they would tell you that you have to be there.
I would see it as a bit disrespectful if they knew that you were an atheist, but still insisted that you attend and take part in their rituals. Unless they're the type that don't think much of it, and are open-minded enough to attend godless reunions or take part in rituals of other religions that they don't share. I couldn't hold anything against those types of people.
Ya they know I am an atheist but they are really religious. And I have a hunch they do not like godless reunions either seeing as they once told my mother (who is an agnostic btw) that it is wrong that she would allow me ever get married outside the church in a civil ceremony when the time comes to do so (boy did that statement ever piss off my mom and I). Their my fam, I still love them...but they can really get under my skin sometimes when it comes to these things.
I wouldn't go if they are going to be like that.
If you show up to support the family, and they know you are an atheist, that might create some sort of goodwill, or at least show them that you aren't a devil worshiper. You don't have to promise to do anything religious, but just being there would gain you some points, I would suppose.
I don't really see the problem. Why is it such an issue? Can't you just go and let the pomp and ceremony just wash over you, just like the baby will. It's only some silly words and some water, what's the harm?
Any free food and booze afterwards?
I enjoy going to these things and amuse myself by watching the congregation of non-religious family and friends squirm uncomfortably while pretending to enjoy the religious singing and prayers. I, myself am just happy to stand proudly (but respectfully) silent.
When it comes to religious ceremonies, I usually go and "play the part". I used to be a religious church-goer, so I guess I "get it" and why it appeals to some people.
My husband will physically attend events that are in churches, but he refuses to "play the part" (won't take part in communion, won't sing along to hymns, won't recite prayers, etc.) He hasn't had any family say anything to him as of yet, but he's pretty relaxed about it all.
I guess it depends on how much of a fuss you are willing to kick up.
Maybe I'm in the minority but I can't stand being in any church/temple setting. I literally cringe every time I hear prayer.
I would simply tell them you are an atheist and going to church makes you uncomfortable. If they insist you go anyway, you could show up in full pirate regalia. Then they will tell you to leave. Of course this is coming from someone who has scraped off half his family.
Quote from: no_god_know_peace on November 02, 2011, 07:47:00 PM
I also would feel like the biggest hypocrite standing up there with the rest of the family promising that I will do my best to help this child in their "walk with god" when I don't intend on doing anything of the sort.
I'd remind them of this, and let them know I had no intention of disrespecting their beliefs by pretending otherwise.
QuoteAm I within my right for feeling uncomfortable with this?
You're within your rights feeling anything at all, whether or not it's a good idea to act on them is another matter. To me, it looks like your family needs to start adjusting to your godlessness (trying to dictate how and where you're eventually married? c'mon) and it might as well be now since it looks like it may take awhile to get thru to them. I think you're on the right track with just going to the party and taking a nice gift for the baby.
Sometimes it's best to make concessions. Really, other than being annoyed, what harm will it do to you to attend the service? This is obviously important to members of your family, no matter how misguided their beliefs seem. From my experience with my Irish-American Catholic family, baptism seems to be less about affirming belief in some deity than it is about adhering to tradition. Family's important, and if they want you to be present during a traditional ceremony, I say why not? At the end of the day, at least with my relatives, we'll all be drinking whiskey together and talking about the time(s) uncle Pat got arrested.
In short, go to the baptism. Smile at the new parents and congratulate them on their handsome baby. When the kid turns thirteen, give him/her a skateboard and a Black Flag record (CD, MP3, whatever), sit back and watch what unfolds. ;)
Quote from: BullyforBronto on November 03, 2011, 02:45:47 AM
Sometimes it's best to make concessions. Really, other than being annoyed, what harm will it do to you to attend the service? This is obviously important to members of your family, no matter how misguided their beliefs seem. From my experience with my Irish-American Catholic family, baptism seems to be less about affirming belief in some deity than it is about adhering to tradition. Family's important, and if they want you to be present during a traditional ceremony, I say why not? At the end of the day, at least with my relatives, we'll all be drinking whiskey together and talking about the time(s) uncle Pat got arrested.
In short, go to the baptism. Smile at the new parents and congratulate them on their handsome baby. When the kid turns thirteen, give him/her a skateboard and a Black Flag record (CD, MP3, whatever), sit back and watch what unfolds. ;)
Couldn't agree more.
I don't understand why you'd be uncomfortable in a church... unless you're Damien Thorne.
It's a good opportunity to demonstrate that your family have nothing to fear from their Atheist son/cousin/brother. Pin your colours to the mast with dignity, respect and pride, and they may be more willing to accept your beliefs.
I actually had to go to a baptism last Sunday for my girlfriend's friend's son, which was linked to the whole Sunday service so it all dragged on far longer than I would have liked.
It was a seriously weird experience, I just felt like I'd spent an hour in a mental asylum. None of my girlfriend's friends are religious either, so we all felt the same way, like we'd spent an hour in the company of a very odd cult.
I can't say I'd do it again, so I can totally understand you not wanting to go. If you do end up going, all you can do is what I did, not sing any of the hymns, or say any of the prayers, or join in with any of that rubbish about bringing the poor child up as a Christian. I just sat there part bemused, part disturbed, and part trying not to laugh at the stupidity of what's going on!
Part of it was quite disturbing, the vicar kept going on about the importance of faith, and how faith was god's greatest gift to mankind. I guess it's all they've got but it's pretty pathetic to place faith above knowledge or reason.
There was also all the rubbish about Christ claiming the child as his own, and how god always looks after his followers, the examples given being Noah being saved from the flood and Moses and the Israelites being brought out of Egypt. I so wanted to pipe up and point out that these are myths that never actually happened! But I just bit my tongue (there was a lot of that during the course of the ceremony!)
Good luck if you do go, I think you can politely show your apathy for what's going on by just keeping silent and not taking actively participating in the whole charade.
Yea, God ALWAYS looks after his followers. Holocaust anyone?
If I were you TFL, I might have passed out from rolling my eyes too far back into my head.
I've gone to church weddings, funerals and recently a christening. I try to be unobtrusive about not praying and saying amen, and I don't feel I'm doing very much harm to the atheist cause by compromising a bit in the interests of harmony.
The important thing for me is not to spoil the other person's occasion - usually, not attending would do that and so would obtrusive non-cooperation.
Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right. Isaac Asimov.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 03, 2011, 12:12:54 PMYea, God ALWAYS looks after his followers. Holocaust anyone?
If I were you TFL, I might have passed out from rolling my eyes too far back into my head.
That reminds of the God on Trial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI) film, I thought it was very good.
But on topic: Don't do anything you don't want to do that you can't handle being civil for. If you think can make it through with a smile and not getting too irritated, then I'd say do it, it doesn't take up too much time and doesn't hurt you too much. But one of my brothers I would advise not because he can't make it through something like that without making fun of religious people. He does it to their faces, which is often hilarious, but maybe not the end result you want. Of course if you do want to go in order to laugh at them and either don't care about the consequences or want the consequences, then go ahead and go.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 03, 2011, 12:12:54 PM
Yea, God ALWAYS looks after his followers. Holocaust anyone?
If I were you TFL, I might have passed out from rolling my eyes too far back into my head.
hehe, it was a struggle at times. Particularly when they all started shaking each others' hands while saying 'peace' at one point. The vicar must have seen we were clearly not actively participating because he came straight over to us to shake our hands. I almost blanked him, but thought better of it out of politeness, and just looked away while shaking his hand and mumbling 'peace'. It was all a very surreal experience, like going to an exotic foreign land and witnessing some bizarre superstitious voodoo ritual!
The old lady with the collection tray also looked a bit miffed as she just stood there at the end of our isle and we just ignored her until she moved on, that made us all smile.
I still find it morally wrong to try and claim a baby for your religion when the baby clearly isn't old enough to be making any decisions!
Quote from: Too Few Lions on November 03, 2011, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 03, 2011, 12:12:54 PM
Yea, God ALWAYS looks after his followers. Holocaust anyone?
If I were you TFL, I might have passed out from rolling my eyes too far back into my head.
hehe, it was a struggle at times. Particularly when they all started shaking each others' hands while saying 'peace' at one point. The vicar must have seen we were clearly not actively participating because he came straight over to us to shake our hands. I almost blanked him, but thought better of it out of politeness, and just looked away while shaking his hand and mumbling 'peace'. It was all a very surreal experience, like going to an exotic foreign land and witnessing some bizarre superstitious voodoo ritual!
The old lady with the collection tray also looked a bit miffed as she just stood there at the end of our isle and we just ignored her until she moved on, that made us all smile.
I still find it morally wrong to try and claim a baby for your religion when the baby clearly isn't old enough to be making any decisions!
Ya this is the part that is bugging me about attending the church. I have no problem going to religious ceremonies like weddings or whatever because it is two consenting adults who are old enough to think for themselves and form their own beliefs... but initiating an infant when they have no say ? I view it equally immoral as infant ear piericing, circumcision etc.
Quote from: no_god_know_peace on November 03, 2011, 08:33:55 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on November 03, 2011, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 03, 2011, 12:12:54 PM
Yea, God ALWAYS looks after his followers. Holocaust anyone?
If I were you TFL, I might have passed out from rolling my eyes too far back into my head.
hehe, it was a struggle at times. Particularly when they all started shaking each others' hands while saying 'peace' at one point. The vicar must have seen we were clearly not actively participating because he came straight over to us to shake our hands. I almost blanked him, but thought better of it out of politeness, and just looked away while shaking his hand and mumbling 'peace'. It was all a very surreal experience, like going to an exotic foreign land and witnessing some bizarre superstitious voodoo ritual!
The old lady with the collection tray also looked a bit miffed as she just stood there at the end of our isle and we just ignored her until she moved on, that made us all smile.
I still find it morally wrong to try and claim a baby for your religion when the baby clearly isn't old enough to be making any decisions!
Ya this is the part that is bugging me about attending the church. I have no problem going to religious ceremonies like weddings or whatever because it is two consenting adults who are old enough to think for themselves and form their own beliefs... but initiating an infant when they have no say ? I view it equally immoral as infant ear piericing, circumcision etc.
What exactly is particularly abhorrent about this? They can 'claim' a baby 'til they're blue in the face without the slightest effect on the baby. It's as inane as any other of their futile rituals. Completely harmless. Is it that that they
think they own the baby that appalls you? If it pleases them, why not let them have their delusions? It's such a non-issue.
I personally think (as I'm sure others here do) that for many people, religion starts with being 'brainwashed' at a young age. Perhaps no_god_know_peace was more referring to the fact that the child is being forced into Christianity than being baptised.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 03, 2011, 10:38:00 PM
I personally think (as I'm sure others here do) that for many people, religion starts with being 'brainwashed' at a young age. Perhaps no_god_know_peace was more referring to the fact that the child is being forced into Christianity than being baptised.
^^this. It happened to me. Only took 30 years to correct it. I wish someone had intervened, but it was my parents decision, and wouldn't have mattered. Religion is a disease.
Quote from: Xjeepguy on November 03, 2011, 11:33:20 PM
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 03, 2011, 10:38:00 PM
I personally think (as I'm sure others here do) that for many people, religion starts with being 'brainwashed' at a young age. Perhaps no_god_know_peace was more referring to the fact that the child is being forced into Christianity than being baptised.
^^this. It happened to me. Only took 30 years to correct it. I wish someone had intervened, but it was my parents decision, and wouldn't have mattered. Religion is a disease.
My Mum told me I screamed all through my chriestening, my sister (15yo) had to take me outside where I immediatly shut up. Obviously I was an atheist then and didn't even know it ;D
Quote from: Tank on November 04, 2011, 10:16:39 AM
Quote from: Xjeepguy on November 03, 2011, 11:33:20 PM
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 03, 2011, 10:38:00 PM
I personally think (as I'm sure others here do) that for many people, religion starts with being 'brainwashed' at a young age. Perhaps no_god_know_peace was more referring to the fact that the child is being forced into Christianity than being baptised.
^^this. It happened to me. Only took 30 years to correct it. I wish someone had intervened, but it was my parents decision, and wouldn't have mattered. Religion is a disease.
My Mum told me I screamed all through my chriestening, my sister (15yo) had to take me outside where I immediatly shut up. Obviously I was an atheist then and didn't even know it ;D
That is hilarious. And apropos.
personally, I don't go to the church ceremony, not because I feel uncomfortable (on the contrary a church is like a second home too many weddings and funerals) but I am strongly against christening an infant. I do go to the lunch afterwards though, as a way of celebrating the namegiving of the child/
Quote from: Scissorlegs on November 03, 2011, 10:30:17 PM
Quote from: no_god_know_peace on November 03, 2011, 08:33:55 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on November 03, 2011, 03:42:18 PM
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 03, 2011, 12:12:54 PM
Yea, God ALWAYS looks after his followers. Holocaust anyone?
If I were you TFL, I might have passed out from rolling my eyes too far back into my head.
hehe, it was a struggle at times. Particularly when they all started shaking each others' hands while saying 'peace' at one point. The vicar must have seen we were clearly not actively participating because he came straight over to us to shake our hands. I almost blanked him, but thought better of it out of politeness, and just looked away while shaking his hand and mumbling 'peace'. It was all a very surreal experience, like going to an exotic foreign land and witnessing some bizarre superstitious voodoo ritual!
The old lady with the collection tray also looked a bit miffed as she just stood there at the end of our isle and we just ignored her until she moved on, that made us all smile.
I still find it morally wrong to try and claim a baby for your religion when the baby clearly isn't old enough to be making any decisions!
Ya this is the part that is bugging me about attending the church. I have no problem going to religious ceremonies like weddings or whatever because it is two consenting adults who are old enough to think for themselves and form their own beliefs... but initiating an infant when they have no say ? I view it equally immoral as infant ear piericing, circumcision etc.
What exactly is particularly abhorrent about this? They can 'claim' a baby 'til they're blue in the face without the slightest effect on the baby. It's as inane as any other of their futile rituals. Completely harmless. Is it that that they think they own the baby that appalls you? If it pleases them, why not let them have their delusions? It's such a non-issue.
I definitely rank circumcision as higher than piercing because it does a lot more harm (I'm against both of those), but I don't see how anyone can put baptism into the same basket.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 03, 2011, 10:38:00 PM
I personally think (as I'm sure others here do) that for many people, religion starts with being 'brainwashed' at a young age. Perhaps no_god_know_peace was more referring to the fact that the child is being forced into Christianity than being baptised.
If that was the case then all of these baptism-boycotting protesters should be also boycotting any church wedding or funeral to which non-consenting children are taken.
Quote from: MariaEvri on November 04, 2011, 12:26:06 PM
personally, I don't go to the church ceremony, not because I feel uncomfortable (on the contrary a church is like a second home too many weddings and funerals) but I am strongly against christening an infant. I do go to the lunch afterwards though, as a way of celebrating the namegiving of the child/
Why would you go to a church marriage or funeral, but not to a Baptism? It's no more or less inappropriate than taking a baby to a wedding.
Would you boycott baby music classes because 'the baby can't object to the choice of music'? No...?? Why not?
The act of Baptising is utterly innocuous. I think you credit the ceremony with too much meaning. I thought you lot were Atheists. Why would you object to an impotent ceremony? Or do you secretly fear that the Baptism will somehow curse the child with Christianity?
Seems like a futile protest to me...
There're plenty more constructive protests to be made in the name of anti-christianity.
Lots of mixed opinions on this, But a good majority of you have made good arguments about how I am over thinking all this and giving baptism more meaning & power then it really has. I am still not crazy about the whole thing (the only thing I actually look forward too is seeing the little one) but I suppose taking the high road and attending would be the better thing to do.
Thanks happy atheists :)
I don't think you should have to go. Personally, I'm a Christian who is against the thought of baptism of babies. And I have a lot of atheist friends, some who are ok with church and others that when I'll start to say even the slightest prayer, they'll flip out... needless to say, I pray a lot around them. ;) If your family knows you're an atheist and still are trying to force you to attend, I'd show up with a shirt that has a pentagram and rams head on it, just to piss them off... But that's just me, since I'm already the black sheep of the family. Good luck though. Hopefully you find a way out of it.
QuoteI'd show up with a shirt that has a pentagram and rams head on it, just to piss them off... But that's just me
That is exactly what I plan to do next time my family bugs me about going to church.
Let us know how it goes, curious to hear if they try to convert you.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 05, 2011, 07:36:31 PM
I don't think you should have to go. Personally, I'm a Christian who is against the thought of baptism of babies. And I have a lot of atheist friends, some who are ok with church and others that when I'll start to say even the slightest prayer, they'll flip out... needless to say, I pray a lot around them. ;) If your family knows you're an atheist and still are trying to force you to attend, I'd show up with a shirt that has a pentagram and rams head on it, just to piss them off... But that's just me, since I'm already the black sheep of the family. Good luck though. Hopefully you find a way out of it.
You'll be an atheist by your 1,000th post.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on November 06, 2011, 02:17:06 AM
Quote from: not your typical... on November 05, 2011, 07:36:31 PM
I don't think you should have to go. Personally, I'm a Christian who is against the thought of baptism of babies. And I have a lot of atheist friends, some who are ok with church and others that when I'll start to say even the slightest prayer, they'll flip out... needless to say, I pray a lot around them. ;) If your family knows you're an atheist and still are trying to force you to attend, I'd show up with a shirt that has a pentagram and rams head on it, just to piss them off... But that's just me, since I'm already the black sheep of the family. Good luck though. Hopefully you find a way out of it.
You'll be an atheist by your 1,000th post.
I'll take your word on that. I'm actually in a similar position. my mother has recently started making us to 10'o'clock devotions. now, I don't have anything against reading the Bible or anyting like that. It's just afterward they force me to pray... I thought prayer was supposed to be something that is "intimate between ones self and God." Maybe that's just me...
Quote from: Xjeepguy on November 05, 2011, 07:44:50 PM
QuoteI'd show up with a shirt that has a pentagram and rams head on it, just to piss them off... But that's just me
That is exactly what I plan to do next time my family bugs me about going to church.
Let us know how it goes, curious to hear if they try to convert you.
So I went yesterday, it was ok I guess. The ritual was ridiculous :P everyone was all jumpy and excited and huddled around as if it was some earth shattering event ... I found it really strange but it was kinda funny :D I got some nasty stares & a cold shoulder from some of the ppl there (including the reverand)... I take it some of them arnt welcoming of atheists. It was nice to see some ppl that I havnt seen in a while and some of them had babies of their own since the last time I saw them.
Their was lots of food so I didnt have to resort to eating any of the babies :D
I'm glad it wasn't too horrible!
Well it sounds like it went as well as could be expected.