Disclaimer: I didn't know if this is the wrong forum to post this topic so, if not then please move it to where it's more appropriate.
I started thinking about this topic after reading Tank's reply (post number 94) in this (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8496.msg131747#new) thread.
While I was growing up, my father liked hunting wild game for sport, everything from birds to antelope, basically anything that he could pay for.
Being the type with, for as long as I can remember, an intense interest in animals, I would at first try to convince him to stop doing this, but he always came up with arguments that I couldn't really refute. For one, the animals were kept in large private reserves, and that the income obtained from selling licenses would revert to the reserve. Endangered animals were obviously protected. With the money, new measures could be implemented to try to ward off poachers, a huge problem in huge reserves...they're the ones who cause the most harm.
Secondly, licenses were sold depending on the number of animals available. In some cases population control was necessary, since there were some animals who ultimately unbalance the ecosystems they're in. Between having to kill part of a population of one type of animal and controlled hunting, better to sell a hunting license.
He told me that he only hunted the old and sick animals and so put them out of their misery, but I don't believe him.
Thirdly, hunted animals were not left to rot (except for the carnivores, but vultures make short work of them) but instead sold as meat to either the hunter or the local population.
What are your thoughts on this? Good arguments for controlled hunting?
As long as the hunter is competent to get it done right, and the animal is not endangered, I see no problem with regulated hunting for food animals.
If the hunter is some city slicker who has never shot a gun before, I would have a problem with that, as he very well may not have the training to take the animal down without causing undue suffering.
I also have a problem with people who shoot animals just for sport. If you can't eat it, don't shoot it.
I always did a lot of what we Brits call rough shooting. Wandering round the farm with a 12-bore, shooting either vermin or for the pot. These two often coincided, as with woodpigeons, which were a serious pest in my home area; also rabbits. I have never had a moral qualm about it at all.
I do agree about suffering; you shouldn't take casual shots where the probability of wounding is high. That mainly means judging the range, in the case of a shotgun. And if you do wound, you should go to considerable trouble to find the beast and kill it.
Quote from: Guardian85 on October 29, 2011, 05:47:05 PM
As long as the hunter is competent to get it done right, and the animal is not endangered, I see no problem with regulated hunting for food animals.
If the hunter is some city slicker who has never shot a gun before, I would have a problem with that, as he very well may not have the training to take the animal down without causing undue suffering.
I also have a problem with people who shoot animals just for sport. If you can't eat it, don't shoot it.
I agree with this, with the additional proviso that the animals being hunted truly are the old and sick, as they would mostly be in the wild by other predators. I don't mind going along with nature, but screwing with it unsettles me. Which I realize is a very hypocritical stance for a modern, first world human to take, but there you are.
My husband is a vegetarian, and I work with animals, but I don't really have a problem with hunting.
What a hunted wild deer goes through is probably way more humane than what our factory farmed cows/pigs/chickens go through.
I personally dont hunt, but I have no problem with those who do. As long as it is for food. I see no purpose in hunting down an animal and shooting it just for kicks.
Quote from: Xjeepguy on October 31, 2011, 12:56:57 AM
I personally dont hunt, but I have no problem with those who do. As long as it is for food. I see no purpose in hunting down an animal and shooting it just for kicks.
The other good purpose is to keep down vermin. If you had ever seen what a crow will do to a newborn lamb, you'd shoot every crow you saw. Then rabbits: they eat large amounts of grass which the hard-pressed farmer wants his for stock. If you keep chickens and a magpie is forever stealing your eggs, you'll hide in the barn door with your shotgun and wait for the beggar. When a friend's ducks were being slaughtered by a fox
and a mink, we killed both (in the end, after much trouble).
On a bigger issue, I feel no need to apologise for shooting things "just for kicks", as you put it - there is nothing wrong in enjoying the killing of vermin. It's the skill of the chase, and learning the ways of the animal.
Quote from: OldGit on October 31, 2011, 09:12:01 AM
On a bigger issue, I feel no need to apologise for shooting things "just for kicks", as you put it - there is nothing wrong in enjoying the killing of vermin. It's the skill of the chase, and learning the ways of the animal.
I'm glad you said that. I've only been shooting once - rabbits, for the reason you mention - and yes, it was fun. The farmer who took me out spent a lot of time beforehand teaching me to shoot accurately, so as to kill and not just maim, and there was the satisfaction of "a job well done" about it. It was a lot more humane than the alternatives and what we didn't eat that night went into the freezer.
I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea of "amateurs" paying to hunt old and sick animals. Surely that's the game wardens' job?
In this reagard, I am Asmodean the Typical.
For those who don't know what that is, it means I simply don't care. I don't hunt, but as long as you don't start firing large caliber weaponry from my parking lot inwards (Within my domain, that is) without permission, you can hunt all you want and for whatever reason pleases you. None of my business.
Quote from: OldGit on October 31, 2011, 09:12:01 AM
Quote from: Xjeepguy on October 31, 2011, 12:56:57 AM
I personally dont hunt, but I have no problem with those who do. As long as it is for food. I see no purpose in hunting down an animal and shooting it just for kicks.
The other good purpose is to keep down vermin. If you had ever seen what a crow will do to a newborn lamb, you'd shoot every crow you saw. Then rabbits: they eat large amounts of grass which the hard-pressed farmer wants his for stock. If you keep chickens and a magpie is forever stealing your eggs, you'll hide in the barn door with your shotgun and wait for the beggar. When a friend's ducks were being slaughtered by a fox and a mink, we killed both (in the end, after much trouble).
On a bigger issue, I feel no need to apologise for shooting things "just for kicks", as you put it - there is nothing wrong in enjoying the killing of vermin. It's the skill of the chase, and learning the ways of the animal.
I should have been more precise, I support the killing of animals for a purpose, what I was referring to is a practice I have seen here in the states at least a dozen times is where someone went into the woods and headshot a deer (sometimes very young), only to leave the whole deer there to rot. Personally, I think that if someone were to shoot a deer they had no desire to eat, they should have brought it out and given it to someone who would. I have shot rabbits and squirrel and the occasional groundhog to keep the garden from being destroyed.
Did any of you know that there is a safari park in South Africa where you can hunt elephants with paint ball guns!
Quote from: Tank on October 31, 2011, 10:46:01 AM
Did any of you know that there is a safari park in South Africa where you can hunt elephants with paint ball guns!
Please tell me you are making this up? That is just mean and so embarrassing for the elephants. Though I expect they would enjoy the baths afterwards.
Quote from: Tank on October 31, 2011, 10:46:01 AM
Did any of you know that there is a safari park in South Africa where you can hunt elephants with paint ball guns!
I tried to Google it, but all I got were jokes!
I don't imagine that PETA would be pleased with this.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on October 31, 2011, 03:08:23 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 31, 2011, 10:46:01 AM
Did any of you know that there is a safari park in South Africa where you can hunt elephants with paint ball guns!
I tried to Google it, but all I got were jokes!
I don't imagine that PETA would be pleased with this.
I'll see if I can find a link. I would have thought PETA would have approved over killing them?
Quote from: Tank on October 31, 2011, 03:19:19 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on October 31, 2011, 03:08:23 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 31, 2011, 10:46:01 AM
Did any of you know that there is a safari park in South Africa where you can hunt elephants with paint ball guns!
I tried to Google it, but all I got were jokes!
I don't imagine that PETA would be pleased with this.
I'll see if I can find a link. I would have thought PETA would have approved over killing them?
Oh no, animals should never be used for human entertainment! Or food. or research. or anything. Ever.
(FYI I am not a PETA fan)
Quote from: Ildiko on October 31, 2011, 10:27:20 AM
I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea of "amateurs" paying to hunt old and sick animals. Surely that's the game wardens' job?
That's just what my father would tell me to make it seems less wrong on his part, but like I mentioned, I never really bought it. Though he wouldn't like being called an "amateur" ;)
I can't say I disagree with the idea of hunting vermin though.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on October 31, 2011, 03:31:24 PM
Oh no, animals should never be used for human entertainment! Or food. or research. or anything. Ever.
(FYI I am not a PETA fan)
So this sort of thing (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/oct/31/barking-mad-weird-world-pet-ownership) would be right out, then?
I think if one lives in the country and needs to hunt to survive I think it's okay. I think people who hunt for fun, and get an enjoyment out of killing animals is sadistic.
Quote from: John Yossarian on October 31, 2011, 03:52:47 PM
I think if one lives in the country and needs to hunt to survive I think it's okay. I think people who hunt for fun, and get an enjoyment out of killing animals is sadistic.
What do you think about hunting vermin? There are a few mice in my family's house's roof that keep trying to evade every trap set up for them. ::)
As a kid I used to love roaming around the orchard shooting birds.
But at times I noticed that the birds had feelings, sometimes when I shot one, others would crowd around it in a distressed manor.
This and maturity of age has made me against hunting, certainly against hunting for fun.
Killing Rabbits, Magpies and Possums is good though.
But with regards to hunting for fun, I am against it. Playing with guns is serious business, many people get killed every year, mistaken for deer.
Quote from: Stevil on October 31, 2011, 06:11:38 PM
But with regards to hunting for fun, I am against it. Playing with guns is serious business, many people get killed every year, mistaken for deer.
Reminds me of my brother, who went on a hunting trip (for birds) with my father, and fell asleep under a tree. Some people eventually came to us with him and said that they had almost mistaken the rustling he was causing under the tree to be birds. My mother was scared out of her wits when my father told her what happened. :o
My brother was around 5.
Anyone who even considers shooting at a noise, where he can't see, should have his gun rammed up his rear end.
Quote from: OldGit on October 31, 2011, 06:43:00 PM
Anyone who even considers shooting at a noise, where he can't see, should have his gun rammed up his rear end.
I couldn't agree more.
I don't hunt, but do fish quite frequently. I think that as long as one follows the regulated seasons and that the sought after species is sustainable/correctly managed there is no problem with hunting or fishing. Oh, and I'm a pretty big proponent of eating what one kills, so that, too.
For me, there is something cathartic about fishing, and I suppose it must be the same for hunting.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 31, 2011, 06:01:30 PM
What do you think about hunting vermin? There are a few mice in my family's house's roof that keep trying to evade every trap set up for them. ::)
I had a mouse in my kitchen once, I made a bed for it in the cupboard under the sink where it was living.
As for poorly skilled hunters making the death of an old or sick animal even more miserable, well, ideally only skilled hunters would have hunting licences but I don't see any way of guaranteeing that and between an idiot with a rifle killing a healthy, young animal or an old, sick one, I think it's better for the animal population as a whole if the old or sick one goes.
I'm fine with hunting as long as those doing it take care to be safe and to make sure their shot is clean so the animal doesn't suffer. Ideally anything killed should be eaten otherwise it's just pointless.
Personally I'm too big of a sissy to see something alive and then feel okay eating it later. Even fishing and eating the catch makes me a bit queasy...or at least did the last time I tried.
Quote from: Whitney on November 01, 2011, 02:08:24 AM
I'm fine with hunting as long as those doing it take care to be safe and to make sure their shot is clean so the animal doesn't suffer. Ideally anything killed should be eaten otherwise it's just pointless.
Personally I'm too big of a sissy to see something alive and then feel okay eating it later. Even fishing and eating the catch makes me a bit queasy...or at least did the last time I tried.
I know, I can't eat anything that reminds me of what it was when it was alive -- I feel too sorry for it. I should just become a vegetarian once and for all and be done with it.
Didn't British hunting parties used to have servants who were actually good shots go along with the lords to kill quickly anything that was merely injured? I wonder if something like that would be enforceable?
Quote from: Whitney on November 01, 2011, 02:08:24 AM
I'm fine with hunting as long as those doing it take care to be safe and to make sure their shot is clean so the animal doesn't suffer. Ideally anything killed should be eaten otherwise it's just pointless.
Personally I'm too big of a sissy to see something alive and then feel okay eating it later. Even fishing and eating the catch makes me a bit queasy...or at least did the last time I tried.
You touch on another interesting point. Most people who are the most PETA type anti-hunting will eat packaged supermarket meat without second thought on where that food came from. Veganism would be more consistent, IMO.
QuoteI had a mouse in my kitchen once, I made a bed for it in the cupboard under the sink where it was living.
You made a bed for it? :P Didn't you worry that it would walk all over your kitchen utensils?
Even after living in India, where the sight of mice and huge rats hoping from one fruit to another in the marketplace didn't ease these things for me.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 01, 2011, 02:30:34 AM
Didn't British hunting parties used to have servants who were actually good shots go along with the lords to kill quickly anything that was merely injured? I wonder if something like that would be enforceable?
Based on what my father would say, a park ranger would go along even if to make sure that you killed the animal you paid for and not another. I'm assuming that they at least are good shots, even if the hunter is amateur.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 01, 2011, 02:33:13 AM
QuoteI had a mouse in my kitchen once, I made a bed for it in the cupboard under the sink where it was living.
You made a bed for it? :P Didn't you worry that it would walk all over your kitchen utensils?
Never even occurred to me. I was just glad it didn't seem to have any family or friends coming over. I used to keep mice as pets when I was a teenager, so they don't bother me.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on October 31, 2011, 03:31:24 PM
Oh no, animals should never be used for human entertainment! Or food. or research. or anything. Ever.
(FYI I am not a PETA fan)
I am against horse racing. Jumping on top of an animal yanking on a metal bit forced into its mouth and kicking it and whipping it so that people can gamble is abhorrent.
Quote from: Stevil on November 01, 2011, 04:53:02 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on October 31, 2011, 03:31:24 PM
Oh no, animals should never be used for human entertainment! Or food. or research. or anything. Ever.
(FYI I am not a PETA fan)
I am against horse racing. Jumping on top of an animal yanking on a metal bit forced into its mouth and kicking it and whipping it so that people can gamble is abhorrent.
I have no idea where that strawman of horse racing came from. If a jocky abused a multi-million pound horse he'd find himself out of the stable in a flash. I would ban the whip though as it is completly unnecessary. If all jockys have one it cancels out, so is unnecessary.
I don't like jumping horse racing as the risks to horse and rider are unneccessary. Competition on the flat is perfectly acceptable.
Quote from: Tank on November 01, 2011, 08:29:18 AM
I have no idea where that strawman of horse racing came from. If a jocky abused a multi-million pound horse he'd find himself out of the stable in a flash.
Depends on your definition of abuse. I would consider horse racing unnecessary and abusive, purely for people's entertainment, unless of course it was more like dog racing, with no rider and the horse choosing to chase after something.
IMO the Mongolian practice of inserting rockets in the horse's rear end is not inhumane, provided that:
1. The rocket has adequate thermal insulation
2. It is not one of those which shoot out stars at the end.
Quote from: Stevil on November 01, 2011, 10:03:38 AM
Quote from: Tank on November 01, 2011, 08:29:18 AM
I have no idea where that strawman of horse racing came from. If a jocky abused a multi-million pound horse he'd find himself out of the stable in a flash.
Depends on your definition of abuse. I would consider horse racing unnecessary and abusive, purely for people's entertainment, unless of course it was more like dog racing, with no rider and the horse choosing to chase after something.
That would be interesting. But what would they chase? A bale of hay? ;D
Quote from: Tank on November 01, 2011, 11:30:44 AM
Quote from: Stevil on November 01, 2011, 10:03:38 AM
Depends on your definition of abuse. I would consider horse racing unnecessary and abusive, purely for people's entertainment, unless of course it was more like dog racing, with no rider and the horse choosing to chase after something.
That would be interesting. But what would they chase? A bale of hay? ;D
They chase a mechanical rabbit. Frankly, dog racing seems very hard on the greyhounds -- there's a local rescue group devoted entirely to racing dogs and I don't know if it's a co-incidence, but a lot of those dogs are missing a leg.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 01, 2011, 02:08:43 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 01, 2011, 11:30:44 AM
Quote from: Stevil on November 01, 2011, 10:03:38 AM
Depends on your definition of abuse. I would consider horse racing unnecessary and abusive, purely for people's entertainment, unless of course it was more like dog racing, with no rider and the horse choosing to chase after something.
That would be interesting. But what would they chase? A bale of hay? ;D
They chase a mechanical rabbit. Frankly, dog racing seems very hard on the greyhounds -- there's a local rescue group devoted entirely to racing dogs and I don't know if it's a co-incidence, but a lot of those dogs are missing a leg.
LOL I know the dogs chase a mechanical rabbit. I was thinking what would the horses chase if they didn't have a jokey :D
Quote from: Stevil on November 01, 2011, 10:03:38 AM
Quote from: Tank on November 01, 2011, 08:29:18 AM
I have no idea where that strawman of horse racing came from. If a jocky abused a multi-million pound horse he'd find himself out of the stable in a flash.
Depends on your definition of abuse. I would consider horse racing unnecessary and abusive, purely for people's entertainment, unless of course it was more like dog racing, with no rider and the horse choosing to chase after something.
Dog racing is worse, most retired greyhounds are put to sleep when they're past their prime.
I think Tank is right, champion horses are treated very well - if they weren't, they can't race. Don't really know what happens to the average racers after their careers are over though.
Quote from: Tank on November 01, 2011, 11:30:44 AM
Quote from: Stevil on November 01, 2011, 10:03:38 AM
Quote from: Tank on November 01, 2011, 08:29:18 AM
I have no idea where that strawman of horse racing came from. If a jocky abused a multi-million pound horse he'd find himself out of the stable in a flash.
Depends on your definition of abuse. I would consider horse racing unnecessary and abusive, purely for people's entertainment, unless of course it was more like dog racing, with no rider and the horse choosing to chase after something.
That would be interesting. But what would they chase? A bale of hay? ;D
Better to get them running from something. LOL ;D
But seriously now, even horse racing pales in comaprision to bloody sports such as bull baiting. I think it wasn even recently banned in Spain?
Talk about vestiges of a gladitorial past. ::)
Quote from: Tank on November 01, 2011, 04:09:09 PM
LOL I know the dogs chase a mechanical rabbit. I was thinking what would the horses chase if they didn't have a jokey :D
Oh, the
horses. I think you'd be out of luck with them chasing anything jockey-less, unless it was a bunch of stallions chasing a mare.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 01, 2011, 05:13:45 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 01, 2011, 04:09:09 PM
LOL I know the dogs chase a mechanical rabbit. I was thinking what would the horses chase if they didn't have a jokey :D
Oh, the horses. I think you'd be out of luck with them chasing anything jockey-less, unless it was a bunch of stallions chasing a mare.
Even geldings do that sometimes. Mostly mine when we're showing ::)
I personally would love to get my hunting license, but I have nobody to go with.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 01, 2011, 04:24:00 PM
Don't really know what happens to the average racers after their careers are over though.
Retirement and a life of munching on hay and hanging around allergy-inducing stables, if they lucky :P
Quote from: Stevil on November 01, 2011, 04:53:02 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on October 31, 2011, 03:31:24 PM
Oh no, animals should never be used for human entertainment! Or food. or research. or anything. Ever.
(FYI I am not a PETA fan)
I am against horse racing. Jumping on top of an animal yanking on a metal bit forced into its mouth and kicking it and whipping it so that people can gamble is abhorrent.
I actually support many of the same causes that PETA does - I just don't like that they are an organization that makes over $30 million a year and uses practically NOTHING of this to actually improve the lives of animals in any real way. They are a marketing/money making machine. I have a million times more respect for the SPCA and humane shelters - I've seen first hand the good that they do with very minimal budgets.
Penn and Teller did an Bullsh1t (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kXUPy-dCx4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLC924273B24E94876) episode on PETA. Don't know how much of it is true, though.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 02, 2011, 03:03:45 PM
Penn and Teller did an Bullsh1t (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kXUPy-dCx4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLC924273B24E94876) episode on PETA. Don't know how much of it is true, though.
Oh yea I remember that. It was really funny and a little scary at the same time.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on November 02, 2011, 03:29:06 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 02, 2011, 03:03:45 PM
Penn and Teller did an Bullsh1t (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kXUPy-dCx4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLC924273B24E94876) episode on PETA. Don't know how much of it is true, though.
Oh yea I remember that. It was really funny and a little scary at the same time.
I think that pretty much sums up Penn and Teller!
Quote from: Tank on November 02, 2011, 03:52:55 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on November 02, 2011, 03:29:06 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 02, 2011, 03:03:45 PM
Penn and Teller did an Bullsh1t (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kXUPy-dCx4&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLC924273B24E94876) episode on PETA. Don't know how much of it is true, though.
Oh yea I remember that. It was really funny and a little scary at the same time.
I think that pretty much sums up Penn and Teller!
That's why I like them ;D
I eat meat. Love the stuff. Back in the day I hunted...for food. For about $40 I could get roughly 80-100 pounds of venison, and that would last 4 or five months...double that for an extra $25. I never hunted for sport. I could care less about antlers or a prime specimen of a pheasant. What I care about are the Peta type idiots that think it's just great fun to run amuck in the forest clanging pots and pans while people hunt.
Right. In England nowadays you can be walking with a shotgun across farmland, with permission, and get harassed by these idiots. You may learn afterwards that they then went to the police and accused you of threatening them with your gun.
Hunting is big business in Michigan. One of the very few big businesses.....
I think that controlled hunting is necessary, that the meat should be used whenever an animal is hunted - if not by the hunter, there are always groups or individuals that are willing to take the donations. The deer population is growing so fast that farmers are having issues with the destruction of crops and vehicle/deer accidents are so common that nearly everyone has a story or three about when they or someone close to them hit a deer.
However....
I have only gone hunting for deer once with a gun in my hands, and took one deer. I couldn't eat the meat, even though my family did - and I am not vegetarian. Something about actually taking the life wasn't up my alley, and I haven't been out hunting since.
Quote from: Sgtmackenzie on December 16, 2011, 02:28:08 PM
Hunting is big business in Michigan. One of the very few big businesses.....
I think that controlled hunting is necessary, that the meat should be used whenever an animal is hunted - if not by the hunter, there are always groups or individuals that are willing to take the donations. The deer population is growing so fast that farmers are having issues with the destruction of crops and vehicle/deer accidents are so common that nearly everyone has a story or three about when they or someone close to them hit a deer.
However....
I have only gone hunting for deer once with a gun in my hands, and took one deer. I couldn't eat the meat, even though my family did - and I am not vegetarian. Something about actually taking the life wasn't up my alley, and I haven't been out hunting since.
Yeah when I use to live in the vicksburg/kalamazoo area you would know hunting season had begun because of the increase in sirens out in the country. People were getting hurt often. Two men were even found dead a field over from our house one season.
So far I have only killed one deer with my truck. The other two times the deer caught it in the butt and scampered off leaving me with a 'minor' repair to the front headlights. This was all not intentional though I know a few who seem to go hunting that way.
Last night my wife came home with a pile of processed deer. Her family are all hunters and they manage to kill enough to spread around the whole family. I am okay with it but the duality of it bothers me. I love the aspca, I am the go to for cat adoption among friends, I sometimes still think peta does good things, and I could never kill a deer myself intentionally. But if i had to in order to survive, I would NOT use a bow. The few I know who do this I sometimes will hassle them for it. Such a disturbing method to track a bleeding animal. >:(
Modern compound bows, crossbows or firearms. As long as you have the skills to make a clean, efficient kill, and the patience and disipline to wait for that perfect shot, it doesn't really matter what you kill with.
Quote from: Guardian85 on December 16, 2011, 06:29:18 PM
As long as you have the skills to make a clean, efficient kill, and the patience and disipline to wait for that perfect shot, it doesn't really matter what you kill with.
Strategic nuclear weapons.
There is such a thing as too much of a good thing... :o
Quote from: Guardian85 on December 16, 2011, 08:39:13 PM
There is such a thing as too much of a good thing... :o
And when did that happen in reality? ;D
I happily eat meat. If I had to kill and butcher on my own behalf, I would, but I don't, so I don't.
Hunting for trophies makes no sense to me, not for moral reasons, but for psychological ones. The only trophy that would mean anything to me would be the beast I killed with a knife in a fair fight. Hell, I think if I killed a mugger in a fair fight, I might be tempted to have the corpse (or at least the head) stuffed and mounted. But shooting something that can't shoot back just doesn't feel like glory to me. Now, if I found myself in a gunfight with a sniper and won, I might be tempted to stick the head on my wall.
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 16, 2011, 10:02:18 PM
I happily eat meat. If I had to kill and butcher on my own behalf, I would, but I don't, so I don't.
Hunting for trophies makes no sense to me, not for moral reasons, but for psychological ones. The only trophy that would mean anything to me would be the beast I killed with a knife in a fair fight. Hell, I think if I killed a mugger in a fair fight, I might be tempted to have the corpse (or at least the head) stuffed and mounted. But shooting something that can't shoot back just doesn't feel like glory to me. Now, if I found myself in a gunfight with a sniper and won, I might be tempted to stick the head on my wall.
A person after The Asmo's little black heart! ;D
I live is small town south Texas and we have A LOT of deer. Even with hunting season in full swing the deer are often overpopulated and in search of food and other resources they wander onto highways, into the city and munch on the neighborhood greenery. It's extremely common for me to drive to work in the morning and see several mauled deer carcases on the side of the road that were hit the night before. In this instance is helps for population control but, like now, even hunting hasn't made a significant enough dent in the population. Disease has also become a problem as well, as it does with many large populations of organisms. Without hunting I think it would be quite worse then what it is now.
I think so long as the hunter does everything conceivable to prevent the animal from suffering, it's okay. I feel the same way about farming. I like animals and I like eating animals. This is the only logical compromise I can think of.
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 16, 2011, 10:02:18 PM
I happily eat meat. If I had to kill and butcher on my own behalf, I would, but I don't, so I don't.
Hunting for trophies makes no sense to me, not for moral reasons, but for psychological ones. The only trophy that would mean anything to me would be the beast I killed with a knife in a fair fight. Hell, I think if I killed a mugger in a fair fight, I might be tempted to have the corpse (or at least the head) stuffed and mounted. But shooting something that can't shoot back just doesn't feel like glory to me. Now, if I found myself in a gunfight with a sniper and won, I might be tempted to stick the head on my wall.
As a sniper, I'm slightly offended, but I see your point! ;D
Quote from: Squid on December 17, 2011, 07:27:54 AM
I live is small town south Texas and we have A LOT of deer. Even with hunting season in full swing the deer are often overpopulated and in search of food and other resources they wander onto highways, into the city and munch on the neighborhood greenery. It's extremely common for me to drive to work in the morning and see several mauled deer carcases on the side of the road that were hit the night before. In this instance is helps for population control but, like now, even hunting hasn't made a significant enough dent in the population. Disease has also become a problem as well, as it does with many large populations of organisms. Without hunting I think it would be quite worse then what it is now.
Newfoundland is like this, but for Moose. There are over 600 significant car/moose collisions a year, which is pretty large for a province with a population under 1 million. Fatalities from these collisions is a real concern, as well. A moose can totally demolish most passenger cars. So yeah, I have no problem with moose hunting.
Moose meat is pretty tasty, as well, actually. And most people that I know who do moose hunt use the meat.
I have moose in the freezer right now. Very tender steaks.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whiterabbitcult.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F09%2Fbullwinkle_assassinated.jpg&hash=0c9d59ed80385991e79032a42e3e5ee7aeb30921)
Interesting question. If someone has to hunt as a means of survival it's one thing, but there is certainly something wrong with killing poor defenseless animals for sport.
Quote from: unholy1971 on December 18, 2011, 05:50:46 PM
Interesting question. If someone has to hunt as a means of survival it's one thing, but there is certainly something wrong with killing poor defenseless animals for sport.
How do wild animals normally die? Illness, accident, starvation and/or being eaten alive.
I think I'd rather take a clean effective rifle bullet.
Quote from: unholy1971Interesting question. If someone has to hunt as a means of survival it's one thing, but there is certainly something wrong with killing poor defenseless animals for sport.
As I said before, there's at least one more reason for killing, which is to get rid of a pest. I daresay unholy1971 would have no qualms about using a spray can to kill flies or wasps. Similarly I don't mind killing crows.
Quote from: Tank on December 18, 2011, 07:40:59 PM
Quote from: unholy1971 on December 18, 2011, 05:50:46 PM
Interesting question. If someone has to hunt as a means of survival it's one thing, but there is certainly something wrong with killing poor defenseless animals for sport.
How do wild animals normally die? Illness, accident, starvation and/or being eaten alive.
I think I'd rather take a clean effective rifle bullet.
I know that in private parks the animals live relatively stress-free compared to their wild counterparts. Their natural predators are kept separated and they don't go lacking in things such as food and water.
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 17, 2011, 11:25:59 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whiterabbitcult.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F09%2Fbullwinkle_assassinated.jpg&hash=0c9d59ed80385991e79032a42e3e5ee7aeb30921)
LMAO Okay this is absolutely hilarious. Thanks for posting.
Quote from: Tank on December 18, 2011, 07:40:59 PM
Quote from: unholy1971 on December 18, 2011, 05:50:46 PM
Interesting question. If someone has to hunt as a means of survival it's one thing, but there is certainly something wrong with killing poor defenseless animals for sport.
How do wild animals normally die? Illness, accident, starvation and/or being eaten alive.
I think I'd rather take a clean effective rifle bullet.
Humans die the same way, though being eaten alive is a little rarer.
Quote from: Davin on December 19, 2011, 04:50:57 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 18, 2011, 07:40:59 PM
Quote from: unholy1971 on December 18, 2011, 05:50:46 PM
Interesting question. If someone has to hunt as a means of survival it's one thing, but there is certainly something wrong with killing poor defenseless animals for sport.
How do wild animals normally die? Illness, accident, starvation and/or being eaten alive.
I think I'd rather take a clean effective rifle bullet.
Humans die the same way, though being eaten alive is a little rarer.
I would agree. Mostly because Humans have No natural predators, while at the same time they prey on every other creature including themselves.
Think about this a minute. Would the agriculture industry that grows cows for meat, chickens for meat, turkeys for meat, pigs for meat, would those have had any impact on the increase in the deer population? Now instead of deer being a major source of protein for consumption by humans, they are an animal that is to be avoided if at all possible while driving our deathtraps on the road.
It is easy to see why deer overpopulation has become a "problem". More American's on the road, which leaves the deer fewer natural habitats caused by an increase of population in the US or an increase in the amount of land used to grow crops (a yummy source of FOOD for Deer) which by extension was also caused by an increase in population.
My argument would be that hunting deer is necessary, if only to prevent even worse alternative fixes for the "problem".
Quote from: Sgtmackenzie on December 19, 2011, 06:22:57 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 19, 2011, 04:50:57 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 18, 2011, 07:40:59 PM
Quote from: unholy1971 on December 18, 2011, 05:50:46 PM
Interesting question. If someone has to hunt as a means of survival it's one thing, but there is certainly something wrong with killing poor defenseless animals for sport.
How do wild animals normally die? Illness, accident, starvation and/or being eaten alive.
I think I'd rather take a clean effective rifle bullet.
Humans die the same way, though being eaten alive is a little rarer.
I would agree. Mostly because Humans have No natural predators, while at the same time they prey on every other creature including themselves.
Think about this a minute. Would the agriculture industry that grows cows for meat, chickens for meat, turkeys for meat, pigs for meat, would those have had any impact on the increase in the deer population? Now instead of deer being a major source of protein for consumption by humans, they are an animal that is to be avoided if at all possible while driving our deathtraps on the road.
It is easy to see why deer overpopulation has become a "problem". More American's on the road, which leaves the deer fewer natural habitats caused by an increase of population in the US or an increase in the amount of land used to grow crops (a yummy source of FOOD for Deer) which by extension was also caused by an increase in population.
My argument would be that hunting deer is necessary, if only to prevent even worse alternative fixes for the "problem".
They do this in Africa as well, the overpolulation of some species can really endanger others, by competing for limited resources. Numbers should be kept under control.
Not to forget the fact that venison is freaking delicious! ;D
Quote from: Guardian85 on December 19, 2011, 08:35:28 PM
Not to forget the fact that venison is freaking delicious! ;D
Although in Skyrim, it is too heavy to make for good loot. :(
Quote from: Asmodean on December 19, 2011, 08:52:30 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on December 19, 2011, 08:35:28 PM
Not to forget the fact that venison is freaking delicious! ;D
Although in Skyrim, it is too heavy to make for good loot. :(
In Oblivion too. Two feathers?! :o
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 19, 2011, 09:20:06 PM
In Oblivion too. Two feathers?! :o
Yes. For a chunk of MEAT! >:( And The Asmo, he has OCD when it comes to looting, so as long as it can be sold for goldies, The Asmo will carry it out, even if he can barely move as the result.
Thoughts on hunting:
True story. When I was a kid, I had a BB gun that I an my friends played with a lot one summer. We would shoot cans, model cars, coins, just about anything that would pop, go 'Ting', or bust apart. I was shooting stuff on my own one day and was distracted by a bird up on the top of the street light. Without thinking, I took aim and shot. I hit the little sparrow smack in the head. He came down like a rock. My first instinct was that of excitement that I hit it. It was a pretty good shot for the height of the pole and the distance if I do say so myself. I ran to our block fence to peer over and see the bird and of course it was dead the moment the BB hit it. There was a trickle of blood coming out of it. A few moments later another sparrow landed right by the dead bird and just chirped and chirped. Then another came...it broke my heart.
From that moment on, I cannot bring myself to ever hurt an animal in that fashion. Rats and all those objectionable vermin even get sympathy from me when they get killed or die as a result of my doing. My dog has maimed 4 opossom and killed two this year. I hate having to put the thing out of its misery! I feel bad even doing that.
I couldn't hunt. I would have a VERY difficult time even if I had to hunt to eat. For this reason I find it difficult to understand the thinking of some of my hunting friends that simply find it so funny and fun to kill animals.
I don't have issue with those that hunt for their sustenance. My issue is with those that kill just for fun.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on December 19, 2011, 09:45:02 PM
Thoughts on hunting:
True story. When I was a kid, I had a BB gun that I an my friends played with a lot one summer. We would shoot cans, model cars, coins, just about anything that would pop, go 'Ting', or bust apart. I was shooting stuff on my own one day and was distracted by a bird up on the top of the street light. Without thinking, I took aim and shot. I hit the little sparrow smack in the head. He came down like a rock. My first instinct was that of excitement that I hit it. It was a pretty good shot for the height of the pole and the distance if I do say so myself. I ran to our block fence to peer over and see the bird and of course it was dead the moment the BB hit it. There was a trickle of blood coming out of it. A few moments later another sparrow landed right by the dead bird and just chirped and chirped. Then another came...it broke my heart.
From that moment on, I cannot bring myself to ever hurt an animal in that fashion. Rats and all those objectionable vermin even get sympathy from me when they get killed or die as a result of my doing. My dog has maimed 4 opossom and killed two this year. I hate having to put the thing out of its misery! I feel bad even doing that.
I couldn't hunt. I would have a VERY difficult time even if I had to hunt to eat. For this reason I find it difficult to understand the thinking of some of my hunting friends that simply find it so funny and fun to kill animals.
I don't have issue with those that hunt for their sustenance. My issue is with those that kill just for fun.
This reminds me of interviews/stories about people who go to war or commit murder for revenge. They expect a sense of triumph but the killing leaves only guilt and an anticlimactic emptiness. I remember feeling this way too when my childhood friends poured salt on snails and asked me to join in. Now, I can barely speak to those who take any pleasure in torturing/killing animals. Isn't it odd how some people can find this sort of thing "funny and fun"? It's worse than your dog attacking critters, we people have so much else to occupy ourselves with.
First off, I have to say that it finally clicked in this morning. This is probably the first truly international forum board I have ever been on. So I am adjusting just a little bit.
With regards to hunting, I am an avid hunter, my child is an avid hunter, my younger one, not so much. And that is fine. My wife used to hunt up until we had the two little tricycle motors. Then she stayed home and took care of them while I went hunting. Last year she started again and got her first deer in a several years.
Come on folks, we pride ourselves in being rational thinkers here right? Do you really think that hunters stalk and kill only the old and sick? If you are a trophy hunter you want the largest healthiest male, if you are hunting to put food on the table you are simply hunting for the largest, for quantity.
There was a study done here in the US on Whitetail deer. There are fewer deer killed by hunters throughout the entire hunting season across the country than there are killed by cars in the same year. And cars are a only a portion of deer that die more horrific deaths each year. Winter kill is a huge percentage of deer that die each year (freezing to death), disease and predators also take a huge toll. To a deer, a hunter is slightly more than an inconvenience.
Those that want to talk about nature. Wild game has predators, depending on where you live in the world, lions, tigers and bears, oh my! Humans are simply another predator that the wild animal has to contend with.
The hunting and I am opposed to are the people who go and shoot animals just for trophies. Like shooting elephants just for the tusks, rhino's just for the horns, deer just for the antlers and leaving the rest to rot.
I even support varmint hunting here. Prarrie Dogs and gophers. If left unchecked they will completely destroy a pasture ground within a few years.
Quote from: lomfs24 on December 28, 2011, 02:48:32 PM
Come on folks, we pride ourselves in being rational thinkers here right? Do you really think that hunters stalk and kill only the old and sick? If you are a trophy hunter you want the largest healthiest male, if you are hunting to put food on the table you are simply hunting for the largest, for quantity.
My father is a trophy hunter, and I never really did buy that excuse ;D
This is the only kind of trophy hunter I have any admiration for:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffc01.deviantart.net%2Ffs17%2Ff%2F2007%2F134%2F8%2F8%2FBear_Wrestling_by_jameson9101322.jpg&hash=ecc7d76b7c812b75a024cee3ad88e8d1fd174793)
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 28, 2011, 03:32:36 PM
This is the only kind of trophy hunter I have any admiration for:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffc01.deviantart.net%2Ffs17%2Ff%2F2007%2F134%2F8%2F8%2FBear_Wrestling_by_jameson9101322.jpg&hash=ecc7d76b7c812b75a024cee3ad88e8d1fd174793)
Who, the fool in the furry brown suit? Or the other guy? :P
My story is similar to AnimatedDirt's.
I lived in the backwoods of a small town and would take the BB gun out and shoot at stuff on the summer days. I shot at a lot of stuff but the barrel on the gun was coming off of the stalk to the side, so I missed a lot (though I don't think this affected the sites). I shot at a bird way across the field, broke the branch it was on and saw the bird fly away, but I was so close and it felt pretty awesome. Then I shot at this squirrel in the tree eating an acorn it dropped the acorn and ran up the tree.
After awhile I was laying on the hood of our jeep in the sun. I heard this crash of tree limbs breaking and falling and ran over to find the squirrel lying on the ground twitching with a hole in its stomach I felt awful. To ad to that I wanted to put it out of its misery (hopefully it was already in shock), so I pumped the gun up as many time as I could and pointed the barrel at its head. Bad idea since I just left a BB sized dent in the side of its head.
I ended up taking it to my mom who thought it was sad and had it in a towel until it died.
I do not kill insects/arachnids unless they are poisonous or infesting the house like spiders sometimes do, but I've also always wanted to be an entomologist. So I now can't imagine harming an animal knowing that it is most likely self aware to some extent. (and I know insects are probably not self aware)
Quote from: envilid on December 28, 2011, 04:46:51 PM
(and I know insects are probably not self aware)
Maybe not but they flee so I conclude that they fear, and the essence of physical pain is fear. (Without fear, sensation is just sensation. Fear turns it into pain.)
I rarely kill insects but now and then I will do so, if what the insect is doing or where it is doing it is intolerable to me. On those occasions I strike swiftly and with overwhelming force.
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 28, 2011, 06:03:19 PM
Quote from: envilid on December 28, 2011, 04:46:51 PM
(and I know insects are probably not self aware)
Maybe not but they flee so I conclude that they fear, and the essence of physical pain is fear. (Without fear, sensation is just sensation. Fear turns it into pain.)
Though it may just be a sort of instinct brought on by evolution for survival. Though we are about in the same boat just the possibility that it is scared or the fact its another living life form I do not like to harm them.
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat
I rarely kill insects but now and then I will do so, if what the insect is doing or where it is doing it is intolerable to me. On those occasions I strike swiftly and with overwhelming force.
Agreed. No animal, plant or insect has any more or less claim to life than I do. I just have the ability and power to forego my sentiments if an animal annoys me, or I otherwise have a want for anothers' death. I won't loose sleep. But I certainly don't consider 'for fun' a good enough reason to kill anything.
I would have no problem living off the land and killing for my own food or clothing. In fact I would be happier doing so given that some animals are forced to endure excessive discomfort to end up on my plate. I have a conscience, albeit variable. If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made of meat?
Quote from: Scissorlegs on December 28, 2011, 08:43:01 PM
If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made of meat?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.magicmonkeys.co.uk%2Fgames%2Ffiles%2Fsealofapproval.jpg&hash=06dd26b84176f16f0e2caa9fad37bbb181519b0e)
I have hunted for years and I have come to believe that Hunting is cruel, but Hunting is also necessary. So I have also come to believe that if Hunting is both cruel and necessary, then why not do it right and enjoy the doing well (and suffer the NOT doing so well)? So, to me Hunting in it's raw form is very dramatic – many highs and lows – I figure it's as close to Bi-polar depression as you can get without actually experiencing it.
But I do not practice Hunting raw – I refine it. My kills are clean and without much suffering, and I demand those who hunt with me to do the same. I am a wildlife surgeon, and I am proud of this fact.
Really...I do not hunt so much as to help others hunt: I am a Hunting Guide. I like being a guide, for it brings in a few bucks and lets me peer into people's souls along the way. Specifically, I guide Duck Hunts on the "Down Low" in Eastern Texas. I do not advertise.
When people hunt they bare their souls. Eventually, I always ask them why they are hunting, and I figure there are just but a few good answers. But...let is start with the worst answers!
Some say they hunt to make them "Men"...or whatever. These are the worst. Killing a duck that I "call and decoy" in does not a man make. Maybe when these guys figure out that standing ducks over decoys is no easy task, then they will change – but I've never seen it. And they kill sloppy, too.
Some insist that the hunt for "FOOD": what a joke! You are paying me $350 a morning, or evening, to help you hunt for food...from a skinny, wild duck? I mean, if you get 5 pounds of meat, then you are incredibly lucky...I just don't see how this has anything to do with "FOOD"! I mean, go to the Super Market!
Some insist that they do it as an art (and these are the majority of my customer nowadays). I can agree – duck hunting is an art (and it's really hard)! These guys/gals are usually the best prepared, and the best shots by far – they hit solid. They not only score more ducks, but they tend to see how I actually do it – call them and lead them to the decoys. Last year, I had an Australian woman take the call from me and lead them in...I was quite impressed. Good show! I cooked a redfish dinner for her that night (which she caught), and she gave me all the ducks – which I marianated and cooked later. Fair Trade!
I used to do deer hunts, too – but I gave it all up this year – I've got other things on my plate (so-to-speak). Nevertheless, I do miss Hunting, and what it may teach us about the Human Condition.
Just me.
I'm okay with hunting for food. We live way out in the country and see so many dead deer that have been hit by cars. My neighbor hunts and gives us venison sometimes. The meat is really good and it's much healthier than beef you would buy in the store. I don't agree with hunting just to kill something, though. If you take a life, make the sacrifice count. Use the meat to feed your family. Also, I don't think I could personally kill an animal. But I can cook them up.
Oddly, I only yesterday saw the parallels between hunting and fishing in terms of pride of accomplishment. To fish successfully one needs knowledge, patience, the right equipment, and luck. To hunt successfully, one needs those same four elements. I guess I was a little silly to equate hunting with combat. I saw the gun and thought soldier. Silly. A gun is a landlubber's fishing pole.
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 30, 2011, 01:07:58 PM
Oddly, I only yesterday saw the parallels between hunting and fishing in terms of pride of accomplishment. To fish successfully one needs knowledge, patience, the right equipment, and luck. To hunt successfully, one needs those same four elements. I guess I was a little silly to equate hunting with combat. I saw the gun and thought soldier. Silly. A gun is a landlubber's fishing pole.
Funny you should bring that up. I once knew a religious fellow in Oregon who didn't think it was alright to hunt. All the same reasons, taking another life, just for the sport of it, cheaper to buy meat at the store so it can't be for food...etc... However, he did think it was OK to fish. When asked what the difference between taking a deer's life and a fishes life was he replied that when you are out in the forest or driving your car down the road, you can see deer but you can't see fish. HUH??? OK!
Quote from: lomfs24 on December 30, 2011, 02:15:56 PM
Funny you should bring that up. I once knew a religious fellow in Oregon who didn't think it was alright to hunt. All the same reasons, taking another life, just for the sport of it, cheaper to buy meat at the store so it can't be for food...etc... However, he did think it was OK to fish. When asked what the difference between taking a deer's life and a fishes life was he replied that when you are out in the forest or driving your car down the road, you can see deer but you can't see fish. HUH??? OK!
That's idiotic. I use to fish with my dad all the time didn't think it was too bad because someone told me they don't feel pain. I don't really have fun fishing so I don't go anymore, but a year or so ago I decided to look up whether fish felt pain or not and I'm not sure the study showed absolutely that they did but the time it took a fish to start feeding again after it had a hook through its mouth was substantially larger than a fish caught with a net.
Quote from: envilid on December 30, 2011, 04:31:24 PM
I'm not sure the study showed absolutely that they did but the time it took a fish to start feeding again after it had a hook through its mouth was substantially larger than a fish caught with a net.
Pain would be a reasonable explanation for that. As for me, I assume anything that flees, fears, and anything that fears, known pain, since pain is nothing other than sensation triggering fear. Fish flee.
As a society I don't think we are ready for people to own guns and go recreational hunting
I live in a small country with relatively restrictive gun laws, but...
Victim of hunting accident named (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10774188)
Brothers had heated argument before shooting fatality (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10773222)
Stalker's fatal error stuns teacher's colleagues (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10682866)
Coroner calls for gun law changes over death (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10676626)
Turkey hunter shot and killed (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10645468)
Teen hunter shot in foot (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10637500)
Shot hunter fights for life (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10611808)
Hunter dies on first day of duck hunting season (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10570080)
Shooting victim pleased friend not jailed (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10562699)
Fatal shooting accused in court ahead of funeral (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10544076)
Danish tourist acquitted of hunting trip shooting (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10541695)
Don't jail man man who shot my son: Father (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10514512)
Pig hunter fatally shot in hunting accident (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10513041)
Hunter who shot friend escapes conviction (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10487816)
Coroner finds hunter's death result of mate's 'buck fever' (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10472291)
The son who shot his father (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10408124)
Lucky teenager survives rifle bullet in skull (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10377847)
Seventeen cases in just less than 6 years? It's not good, but in comparison is it bad? How many people have been killed or maimed in the past six years from car accidents? I would venture a guess that you are less prepared as a society to drive cars than you are to own firearms. In the US there are more people killed each year by misdiagnosis of medical doctors than are killed accidentally by firearms. And if you throw in number of people injured by doctors and firearms the numbers are astounding. It would appear that as a society the US should not have doctors.
Quote from: lomfs24 on December 31, 2011, 03:02:01 AM
Seventeen cases in just less than 6 years? It's not good, but in comparison is it bad? How many people have been killed or maimed in the past six years from car accidents? I would venture a guess that you are less prepared as a society to drive cars than you are to own firearms. In the US there are more people killed each year by misdiagnosis of medical doctors than are killed accidentally by firearms. And if you throw in number of people injured by doctors and firearms the numbers are astounding. It would appear that as a society the US should not have doctors.
Cars are necessary to get to work, school, supermarket.
Medical Health is necessary to get well.
Recreational hunting is a hobbie for fun
I guess I would rather that a person hunt and eat an animal than just buy it at the grocery store. But as a vegetarian - yeah, gross.
Yeah, I shouldn't have snapped Stevil. I am a hunter and a firearm enthusiast myself. Perhaps I view firearms in a different light than some. I view a firearm as an inanimate piece of steel that if used improperly can and will cause devastating harm, just like a car. I don't view the piece of steel as the scary part of the equation. It's the person holding the piece of steel.
I am just tired of people pointing to accidents... or incidents that were not accidents and saying "Oh, look that scary gun killed someone. We should ban all firearms!" They tend to point at the firearm as the problem rather that pointing at the problem that caused the kid to feel the need to walk into a school with a firearm in the first place. Wasn't the gun that did it. The gun was just the tool.
Just like in these seventeen articles that you posted, none of them were the fault of the gun. I guarantee you that in each and every one of those instances the gun was simply doing what the person holding it told it to do. So do we ban the gun from everyone? Or do we address the problem of the person holding the gun.
Anyway, sorry about snapping Stevil, and I will get off my soap box now. ;D
Actually, there's a better case for alcohol being banned. It's the cause of a huge number of car accidents and is used recreationally. ;D But, um...yeah.
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 30, 2011, 01:07:58 PM
Oddly, I only yesterday saw the parallels between hunting and fishing in terms of pride of accomplishment. To fish successfully one needs knowledge, patience, the right equipment, and luck. To hunt successfully, one needs those same four elements. I guess I was a little silly to equate hunting with combat. I saw the gun and thought soldier. Silly. A gun is a landlubber's fishing pole.
Combat? You go into combative mode against a grizzly and all you're gonna get is mauled. :o
(and I mean really get down and dirty with a bear, not tackle one from behind the computer screen ;D )
The skill level for hunting isn't necessarily that high though. You learn to handle a firearm properly, learn to stay quiet and how to track an animal you want sucessfully. Shoot.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 31, 2011, 06:09:31 AM
Actually, there's a better case for alcohol being banned. It's the cause of a huge number of car accidents and is used recreationally. ;D But, um...yeah.
Yes, there is a very good case to ban alcohol.
Quote from: lomfs24 on December 31, 2011, 05:26:17 AM
Yeah, I shouldn't have snapped Stevil. I am a hunter and a firearm enthusiast myself. Perhaps I view firearms in a different light than some.
No worries, I didn't take it personally.
I understand that in some countries gun ownership is a hot topic. Not so much in NZ.
I was very keen as a child with guns. I have used air rifle, 22, 308, shotgun, pistol (can't remember what), a semi automatic. They are extremely dangerous and should only be handled with the utmost caution. I don't see ownership as a legal right, but as a privilege, and that people ought to be tested for competency and maturity in order to own one. To have two people die per year so that others can enjoy the sport of hunting, I'm not sure if that is acceptable collateral damage. Would need to evaluate against other sports. But it seems more sinister having a person shot with a gun rather than falling off a cliff or off a horse, or off a boat. We can't put too many restrictive laws in place and hence wrap society in bubble wrap.
Personally I have no interest in owning a gun, for recreation or for defense. I think it would put my life more at risk if I owned a gun.
There are many people in society that I wouldn't want to see own guns. I don't think America is promoting the "right to bear arms" very well at all.
I would like to see balanced information rather than propoganda. The links I posted were purely news articles about people who have been injured or killed in recreation hunting via gunshot. Not embellished, not propoganda-ised, just cold stories of people.
Quote from: Stevil on December 31, 2011, 06:36:42 AM
To have two people die per year so that others can enjoy the sport of hunting, I'm not sure if that is acceptable collateral damage.
Do you deem the value of a single human life to be infinite? Or finite but very high? Based on what?
Two deaths per year, in a world where death is inevitable for everyone, somehow doesn't strike me as meeting the threshold at which I would ban guns. Obviously if my daughters happened to be the two this year, I would be pissed, but not at guns or the gun industry or the institution of hunting. I'd be pissed at the malice or negligence of whoever pulled the trigger, unless it turned out my daughters were the negligent ones. If no culpability could be laid at my dead daughters' feet, then the person who pulled the trigger, if enough of a dick or bastard, might be in for a sudden, frightening experience, applauded only by the maggots or vultures who get a tasty meal, and a grieving father who doesn't subscribe to the constraints Christianity might place on retribution.
Case in point, I don't think Pharoh Cat should have a gun.
... or a chainsaw for that matter.
Actually, a rusty pair of pliers could be lethal in PC's hands.
Quote from: lomfs24 on December 31, 2011, 05:26:17 AM
Yeah, I shouldn't have snapped Stevil. I am a hunter and a firearm enthusiast myself. Perhaps I view firearms in a different light than some. I view a firearm as an inanimate piece of steel that if used improperly can and will cause devastating harm, just like a car. I don't view the piece of steel as the scary part of the equation. It's the person holding the piece of steel.
In Norway a person can also get guns, but we are a bit more restrictive in terms of who can and may own a weapon. You need to be able to document a certain level of competence with firearms, have a clean record, not be a nutcase and have proper storage ability for the firearm in question.
Tat is the way to go. Only people with competence and who can lock it up to prevent theft or accidents get to own weapons.
I am an ex-military gun lover, and I wholehartedly support these rules.
As far as hunting deaths (of humans) are concerned...they only happen when someone is being stupid (usually involving alcohol and improper safety equipment).
Lots of activities we participate in on a daily basis have some kind of danger. If only two deaths result from hunting a year then you'd actually be safer hunting than driving.
Quote from: Whitney on December 31, 2011, 07:11:35 PM
Lots of activities we participate in on a daily basis have some kind of danger. If only two deaths result from hunting a year then you'd actually be safer hunting than driving.
...Or riding a bike. Drunks are as likely or more to go out driving as they are to go hunting, methink.
Quote from: Whitney on December 31, 2011, 07:11:35 PM
As far as hunting deaths (of humans) are concerned...they only happen when someone is being stupid (usually involving alcohol and improper safety equipment).
Lots of activities we participate in on a daily basis have some kind of danger. If only two deaths result from hunting a year then you'd actually be safer hunting than driving.
Actually, most hunting deaths are the result of one Hunter shooting the other - and it is most likely to happen with younger Hunters. And....statistics bear my assertions. Alcohol may play a factor, and I'm sure it does in a lot of deaths, nevertheless I think it is mostly a matter of "not thinking about the other guy" that causes so much harm. My experience has taught me that safe hunting is a matter of observing "the Golden Rule" more than any other factor.