Happy Atheist Forum

Hi,

I am David Pronk(davpronk), i am 17 years old and i live in Amersfoort, The Netherlands.

I am a convinced atheist, i was raised as a christian but my parents gave me the freedom of choice.

My interests are photography and webdesign.

Greetings,

David

Welcome davpronk!

We are glad to have you here on our forum. Feel free to jump right in!

Welcome and good job to your 'rents for lettin' you choose.

Welcome, davpronk... it's wonderful that your parents let you choose!  How very progressive.  Christian parents in the US wouldn't EVER be that progressive.  :-)

Hi davpronk - welcome to the forum!

Welcome to the forum, David.  I hope you enjoy your stay.

Welcome to the forum - score one up for Europe!

Quote from: "rlrose328"Welcome, davpronk... it's wonderful that your parents let you choose!  How very progressive.  Christian parents in the US wouldn't EVER be that progressive.  :-)

Yes, i have great parents! My parents are christian but are not strong believers. Sometimes they have their doubts about god too.

So, actually, what you are saying is, that if you are a child born in a christian family in the US you are forced to be christian too, right?

Quote from: "Davpronk"So, actually, what you are saying is, that if you are a child born in a christian family in the US you are forced to be christian too, right?

Yes and no.  I was raised, essentially, as a christian, but was never part of any denomination.  So, by the time I was about 10 or 11 I realized it was all a load of bullshit.  

Generally, though, people indoctrinate their kids into whatever religion they were indoctrinated into when they were young.  An endless cycle of bullshit threatening to engulf us all...

Quote from: "donkeyhoty"

Quote from: "Davpronk"So, actually, what you are saying is, that if you are a child born in a christian family in the US you are forced to be christian too, right?

Yes and no.  I was raised, essentially, as a christian, but was never part of any denomination.  So, by the time I was about 10 or 11 I realized it was all a load of bullshit.  

Generally, though, people indoctrinate their kids into whatever religion they were indoctrinated into when they were young.  An endless cycle of bullshit threatening to engulf us all...

Yes, it is stupid that parents don't grant their children with freedom of choice. It is just like Santa Claus, when we grow older we realize that he doesn't exists. So why do we still believe in gods????

Quote from: "Davpronk"So, actually, what you are saying is, that if you are a child born in a christian family in the US you are forced to be christian too, right?

In my experience, yes... until you are out of their house.  No one can force you to believe... but parents can and do force you to participate until it is better to just give in than fight it.

I was 'forced' (for lack of a better word) to attend church, choir and sunday school until I was 17 and flat out refused to go.  I didn't believe for quite awhile, but I was afraid to say anything to my parents to that effect for fear of their rejection, which was certain.

The fundie and gellie families I know at my son's school have done a wonderful job of brainwashing their kids at their respective religions that the kids have no choice but to believe and they don't know any better... hoepfully, someday, they will.

So in that respect... the "you have no choice but to listen and learn because I'm telling you to" aspect of religious families, yes, you have no choice.  But no one can wrangle your mind unless you let them... and these kids are so young, they absolutely have no choice.

In Kindergarten, the teacher had told them one day what made rainbows.  The following day, she asked them, "So who can tell me what makes a rainbow?"  One little girl raised her hand and said, "God makes the rainbows."  To my dismay, the teacher (a seminarian) said, "Yes, that's right, but how?"  Yes, this is a public school.  Yes, I was furious.

Last year, in First Grade, the teacher was discussing how species change and merely said the word "evolution," and one of the little boys STOOD UP and said, "There is no evolution, god created EVERYTHING including the earth."  The teacher (a non-believer... I miss her!) said, "Some people believe that, yes." and continued with what she was saying.  

These are 5 and 6 year olds!  The same anti-evolution little boy was running around last year on the playground telling all the other kids there is no such thing as the Easter Bunny, leaving many kids in tears.  My son ran over to him saying, "They can believe whatever they want!  You don't have the right to tell them there's no Easter Bunny!"  Yes, I was proud.

So you see... these kids are brainwashed/indoctrinated, etc. at such a young age that by the time they may get an idea they've been lied to, they don't have the ability to break free.  Some do... we have many people on these forums who have... but it's rare here in America.

Quote from: "rlrose328"

Quote from: "Davpronk"So, actually, what you are saying is, that if you are a child born in a christian family in the US you are forced to be christian too, right?

In my experience, yes... until you are out of their house.  No one can force you to believe... but parents can and do force you to participate until it is better to just give in than fight it.

I was 'forced' (for lack of a better word) to attend church, choir and sunday school until I was 17 and flat out refused to go.  I didn't believe for quite awhile, but I was afraid to say anything to my parents to that effect for fear of their rejection, which was certain.

The fundie and gellie families I know at my son's school have done a wonderful job of brainwashing their kids at their respective religions that the kids have no choice but to believe and they don't know any better... hoepfully, someday, they will.

So in that respect... the "you have no choice but to listen and learn because I'm telling you to" aspect of religious families, yes, you have no choice.  But no one can wrangle your mind unless you let them... and these kids are so young, they absolutely have no choice.

In Kindergarten, the teacher had told them one day what made rainbows.  The following day, she asked them, "So who can tell me what makes a rainbow?"  One little girl raised her hand and said, "God makes the rainbows."  To my dismay, the teacher (a seminarian) said, "Yes, that's right, but how?"  Yes, this is a public school.  Yes, I was furious.

Last year, in First Grade, the teacher was discussing how species change and merely said the word "evolution," and one of the little boys STOOD UP and said, "There is no evolution, god created EVERYTHING including the earth."  The teacher (a non-believer... I miss her!) said, "Some people believe that, yes." and continued with what she was saying.  

These are 5 and 6 year olds!  The same anti-evolution little boy was running around last year on the playground telling all the other kids there is no such thing as the Easter Bunny, leaving many kids in tears.  My son ran over to him saying, "They can believe whatever they want!  You don't have the right to tell them there's no Easter Bunny!"  Yes, I was proud.

So you see... these kids are brainwashed/indoctrinated, etc. at such a young age that by the time they may get an idea they've been lied to, they don't have the ability to break free.  Some do... we have many people on these forums who have... but it's rare here in America.

The horibble part is that the minds of young children are easy to manipulate. They nearly have a mind of their own, because their parents are a important part of their lifes, and a role model to them. So whatever their parents or teachers tell them, children believe it.

Well, i like that teacher you were talking about, because she is a non-believer and she is not brainwashing the children with religious talk, she is giving the children the right to choose for themselves.

I am not saying people should not be christian, or moslim or whatever, i only want people to have the freedom of choice, and that starts from childhood.

Hallo David. Leuk om nog een nederlander op dit forum te zien.

Quote from: "Tom62"Hallo David. Leuk om nog een nederlander op dit forum te zien.

Maar ligt Darmstadt niet in Duitsland dan? Of ben je een Nederlander die in het buitenland woont?

Thank goodness for Babelfish.com!  LOL!

Quote from: "rlrose328"Thank goodness for Babelfish.com!  LOL!

LMAO. Well, Babelfish doesn't always give a good translation. But it's good enough.

I thought I'd jump in and say Hi there.  My favorite band is from the Netherlands (Bettie Serveert)... heh.

Quote from: "MysticalChicken"I thought I'd jump in and say Hi there.  My favorite band is from the Netherlands (Bettie Serveert)... heh.

I had never heard of them, but i have looked them up on Youtube and they sound really great!

Yeah, they're not really all that well-known.  I've only recently come into possession of all seven of their CDs.  (Mostly used, bought at underground/indie record shops)  I'd been searching for Palomine for five years (!) and finally found it last week.

My favorite CD of theirs is Log 22, though, which has my favorite Bettie song on it, "De Diva."  I think there's a live version on YouTube...

Quote from: "MysticalChicken"Yeah, they're not really all that well-known.  I've only recently come into possession of all seven of their CDs.  (Mostly used, bought at underground/indie record shops)  I'd been searching for Palomine for five years (!) and finally found it last week.

My favorite CD of theirs is Log 22, though, which has my favorite Bettie song on it, "De Diva."  I think there's a live version on YouTube...

Yep, they sound very good! I really like the voice of that girl, she is so adorable!  

I also love underground music, especially underground electronica and techno. Just look at
http://www.last.fm/user/davpronk (http://www.last.fm/user/davpronk)

Quote from: "Davpronk"I am not saying people should not be christian, or moslim or whatever, i only want people to have the freedom of choice, and that starts from childhood.

I try to stick with that attitude myself... I have my good days and my bad days, but for the most part, I'm okay with people believing whatever they want to believe as long as they don't attempt to convert me or otherwise preach at/to me.

The main problem with that tack is that then they believe they can do anything they wish with their belief, including passing laws justifying their beliefs. Here in the US, the main offending laws would be banning gay marriage and stifling stem cell research.  Gays are an aberration to the Fundies... against god's word (though in my opinion, their god must have MADE gays that way, but whatever), so they don't deserve rights and if we give them the right to marry, it will somehow taint hetero marriage.  They say their right to marry is threatened by gays demanding their right to marry.

It infuriates me!  Now that we are speaking up against this, they say they are persecuted and their rights to make these laws are being stifled by our wanting a godless nation.  That's because we kept silent for too long.  I run into non-believers more and more these days and so many of them just say, "Yes, I don't believe but it's no one's business but my own and I don't care what believers do."  If we continue to think like that, we abdicate our right to choice in government.

Add to that the fact that believers procreate at such a rapid pace (4 or more children and there are several families in American who are having 12 or more... "as many as god blesses" them with), we are far outnumbered and will continue to be because we don't believe in indoctrinating our children in our (non-)belief and they DO indoctrinate (brainwash, whatever) their 25 children who will each have 25 children, etc.

Ooops... there I go, sounding all defeatist again.  LOL!

Quote from: "rlrose328"

Quote from: "Davpronk"I am not saying people should not be christian, or moslim or whatever, i only want people to have the freedom of choice, and that starts from childhood.

I try to stick with that attitude myself... I have my good days and my bad days, but for the most part, I'm okay with people believing whatever they want to believe as long as they don't attempt to convert me or otherwise preach at/to me.

The main problem with that tack is that then they believe they can do anything they wish with their belief, including passing laws justifying their beliefs. Here in the US, the main offending laws would be banning gay marriage and stifling stem cell research.  Gays are an aberration to the Fundies... against god's word (though in my opinion, their god must have MADE gays that way, but whatever), so they don't deserve rights and if we give them the right to marry, it will somehow taint hetero marriage.  They say their right to marry is threatened by gays demanding their right to marry.

It infuriates me!  Now that we are speaking up against this, they say they are persecuted and their rights to make these laws are being stifled by our wanting a godless nation.  That's because we kept silent for too long.  I run into non-believers more and more these days and so many of them just say, "Yes, I don't believe but it's no one's business but my own and I don't care what believers do."  If we continue to think like that, we abdicate our right to choice in government.

Add to that the fact that believers procreate at such a rapid pace (4 or more children and there are several families in American who are having 12 or more... "as many as god blesses" them with), we are far outnumbered and will continue to be because we don't believe in indoctrinating our children in our (non-)belief and they DO indoctrinate (brainwash, whatever) their 25 children who will each have 25 children, etc.

Ooops... there I go, sounding all defeatist again.  LOL!

I also think christianity is a part of culture in the U.S. Something that has been in a county for decades and centuries, is not just something you can wipe away in a second i guess. Children are raised with christianity and so are their parents by their parents, and so on.

The thing i hate the most is that the American president, George W. Bush, does everything in 'God's blessing'. So everytime he does a speech about the invasion in Iraq, he says "God bless America", like killing innocent Iraqi children and people can be done in 'Gods blessing'. American christians are truly brainwashed by this man. No wonder he gets re-elected two times in a row. I heard Barack Obama was an atheist, i hope so, because if he is elected as president in 2008, we will finally have an atheist in the white house

Here in The Netherlands 48,2% of the people have no religion, in the U.S that's only 15,0%(wikipedia), what a difference. Religion used to be a part of culture here, but more and more people become atheist here in Holland. I think Americans are afraid of becoming aheists. Here in The Netherlands we also have a law that allows Gay Marriage, i heard that in America bush tried to make a law that banned Gay Mariagge from the law. Bush is very anti-gay. And all in ''Gods blessing', i just can't believe how stupid that president is.

I also found the following maps about religion in the U.S:

Plurality religion by state, 2001. Data is unavailable for Alaska and Hawaii:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2Fd%2Fdb%2FReligions_of_the_US.PNG%2F800px-Religions_of_the_US.PNG&hash=41346a6c2a106429b0d226d401b85f4544e5e7ac)

Percentage of religion against average, 2001:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2Fd%2Fd1%2FReligions_by_State.PNG%2F800px-Religions_by_State.PNG&hash=01da72852c7f08615bf457d0632c1bfbaa2ca261)

Percentage of state populations that identify with a religion rather than "no religion", 2001:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2F2%2F2e%2FReligious_Belief_in_USA-states.png%2F800px-Religious_Belief_in_USA-states.png&hash=1e7e55adf79e4b5db6774e3a94a032cd11dc87f6)

Quote from: "Davpronk"Maar ligt Darmstadt niet in Duitsland dan? Of ben je een Nederlander die in het buitenland woont?

I left Holland in 1992. Spend 3,5 years in Paris  then 6 years in the french-speaking part of Switzerland and "finally" ended up in Germany. This might however not be my endstation, because there is a 30-50% chance that my wife and I'll move to the USA (Washington) next year.

Quote from: "Tom62"

Quote from: "Davpronk"Maar ligt Darmstadt niet in Duitsland dan? Of ben je een Nederlander die in het buitenland woont?

I left Holland in 1992. Spend 3,5 years in Paris  then 6 years in the french-speaking part of Switzerland and "finally" ended up in Germany. This might however not be my endstation, because there is a 30-50% chance that my wife and I'll move to the USA (Washington) next year.

But why did you leave Holland? Do you like to travel?

Quote from: "Davpronk"I also think christianity is a part of culture in the U.S. Something that has been in a county for decades and centuries, is not just something you can wipe away in a second i guess. Children are raised with christianity and so are their parents by their parents, and so on.

That's the point right there... Christianity is passed down like fine china, from generation to generation, and only occasionally (as can be found on this forum), there are some who break away and start to think for themselves.  Some atheists cling to the fact that ancient religions died, and so, hopefully, will Christianity but I seriously doubt it.  Christianity is much more widely spread (thank you missionaries) than any of the ancient religions.

Quote from: "Davpronk"The thing i hate the most is that the American president, George W. Bush, does everything in 'God's blessing'. So everytime he does a speech about the invasion in Iraq, he says "God bless America", like killing innocent Iraqi children and people can be done in 'Gods blessing'. American christians are truly brainwashed by this man. No wonder he gets re-elected two times in a row.

I could have written this paragraph!  You are wise beyond your years, Dave...  :D [/quote]

I'm afraid you've heard wrong, my friend.  While Obama was raised in a secular household (by an atheist mom and a formerly Muslim step-father, his father having left his life at age 2), he is a committed Christian.  Linkage: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp)  We can only WISH that someday, we will have at least an agnostic in office.  I think there is an out atheist in a State Senate... the guy who tried to sue god recently... and maybe another one in California... but that's as close as we come.

Quote from: "Davpronk"Here in The Netherlands 48,2% of the people have no religion, in the U.S that's only 15,0%(wikipedia), what a difference. Religion used to be a part of culture here, but more and more people become atheist here in Holland. I think Americans are afraid of becoming aheists. Here in The Netherlands we also have a law that allows Gay Marriage, i heard that in America bush tried to make a law that banned Gay Mariagge from the law. Bush is very anti-gay. And all in ''Gods blessing', i just can't believe how stupid that president is.

Same here, my friend... same here.  And it's so funny to hear conspiracy theorists posit that he and his cronies were fully aware of and even behind the 9/11 tragedy.  I maintain he's not smart enough to do any of that.  Cheney, maybe... Bush, nope.  All you have to do is watch the footage in Farhenheit 9/11 of him in the classroom reading to the kids and the bewilderment on his face when they whispered to him what had happened.  He had no idea how to proceed or even IF to proceed.  He's an idiot.  I AM happy I live in a country where I can say that!

Quote from: "Davpronk"I also found the following maps about religion in the U.S:

Nice references... thanks!

Quote from: "Tom62"I left Holland in 1992. Spend 3,5 years in Paris  then 6 years in the french-speaking part of Switzerland and "finally" ended up in Germany. This might however not be my endstation, because there is a 30-50% chance that my wife and I'll move to the USA (Washington) next year.

Washington State?  Oooo... we'd be neighbors!  I'm just a 15 minute drive from the Washington State border (Oregon).  We LOVE Seattle... we'd move there in a heartbeat if it weren't so expensive. We love overcast and rain.  I'm in heaven right now!

I was just gonna toss in that Obama is not an atheist - but rlrose328 beat me to the punch.

Right now, being an atheist would be devastating to your political career in the U.S.  What were the latest numbers?  Something like only 40% of the populace would even consider voting for you if you are an atheist - its gonna be real hard (i.e. impossible  :wink:  ) to get a majority vote with that number.

Quote from: "Davpronk"But why did you leave Holland? Do you like to travel?

Yes, I do love to travel, but the reason why I left Holland was that I got a wonderful job offer from the American company I worked for. Their european software development center was located south of Paris (Gagny) and they liked the stuff that I'd done in the dutch subsidiary. My net salary was increased by 100%, so how could I refuse? Later the european headquarters moved to Nyon, Switzerland and I moved with them. In Switzerland I fell in love with a german lady who was not so happy with her work at CERN, so we decided then to try our luck in Germany.

Quote from: "rlrose328"Washington State?  Oooo... we'd be neighbors!  I'm just a 15 minute drive from the Washington State border (Oregon).  We LOVE Seattle... we'd move there in a heartbeat if it weren't so expensive. We love overcast and rain.  I'm in heaven right now!

My wife just called me to tell me that she is now in the final rounds. There only one other job candidate, so the chances are indeed high that I end up in Washington after all.

Quote from: "SteveS"I was just gonna toss in that Obama is not an atheist - but rlrose328 beat me to the punch.

Right now, being an atheist would be devastating to your political career in the U.S.  What were the latest numbers?  Something like only 40% of the populace would even consider voting for you if you are an atheist - its gonna be real hard (i.e. impossible  :wink:  ) to get a majority vote with that number.

Unfortunately, that's true... look at that Senator who sued god... he's a laughing stock, even by those who share his beliefs.  I guarantee he will not be re-elected no matter WHAT his views on anything political are.

Saying anything other than that you are ACTIVELY Christian is political suicide in the US.  It's quite discouraging.  I wonder when the thought police will round all of us freethinkers up and send us to an island, Survivor style?

Quote from: "rlrose328"I wonder when the thought police will round all of us freethinkers up and send us to an island, Survivor style?

Didn't the English do that with Australia?  Seems to have worked out fine - all the exported "criminals" made a very respectable first-world nation out it.

So I'm game - I like islands, lots of water, warm climate, only freethinkers present --- sounds perfect!

Sounds good... let me pack my things!

Obama may not be an atheist but right now I'd vote for him if the election were tomorrow, and there's a damn good chance I will vote for him come November 2008.  However, I doubt he'd be like * and start unnecessary wars "with God's blessing."