Does anybody find that as they get older that they have gotten more cynical and/or intolerant of others? I've always been an atheist since I stopped believing in Santa and the Tooth Fairy - my mothers just said "no I don't think so" when I popped the god question. So in many ways I've been lucky that religion and belief has not played a part in my upbringing.
The thing is, growing up, I never really had a problem with religion or religious people - probably because where I live is hardly the bible belt so I was never given a negative impression. To me it was "if they want to believe, let them believe, if it gives them a crutch or a purpose or inner strength" This has changed over the years and I feel like I have become "radicalised" - if that is possible for an atheist.
Nowadays, I just find it so hard to be tolerant of religion. I find it so hard to respect believers, I think the whole thing is silly, I just can't tolerate it very well any more. I find myself having an insatiable appetite to view some of the more in your face atheists like Hitchens, Condell, but it's hardly like my non belief needs re-inforcing. I suppose I just find those guys entertaining - I can't stand that smug git Dawkins though.
I feel like going on a one man face slapping crusade, I just want to shout at theists about how silly their beliefs are until they stop believing. I actually feel like every believer is being taken for a ride, and that they have to be waken up! :(
My opinion has lowered so much over the years that I cannot even bring myself to capitalise words like "god", "bible", "christians/christianity", because I feel like the whole thing is contemptuous and has not even earned the right to be assigned capital letters. This may seem silly to many, but it is actually how I feel.
I'm not sure when I got on this path of caring about religion and it's effects, or when I started to disdain religious belief, but I think I can trace the start back to 9/11, and the horrific murders committed in Iraq by jihadist groups, yes they may have felt that they were oppressed by the West but their deeds were done in the name of allah. Then 10 years of having the internet hasn't helped me either, because it's brought me face to face with the reality of what some people believe, it's no longer something I find easy to box up and stick in a corner. And then of course aging, I'm sure my growth of intolerance has grown with each year.
There's no real point to this post, but is anybody similar to me, increasingly intolerant of the whole sky fairy business?
Yes. With every passing outrage. Even a few years back I could smugly post 'Oh well, we don't really suffer from that stuff in the UK". Lately, however, the insanity is creeping in here, too, especially in education.
@ N&C
I could have written your post myself.
I was reasonably ambivalent and tolerant with religious people (people who define/identify themselves by their religion as opposed to just follow one out of habit/culture), but having now met a few on-line I find my attitude towards religion, all religion, hardening. And the more I read the posts of people like bandit4god et al, the more convinced I am that religion is a bad influence on people and should be challenged always and at every opportunity.
I have the same opinion of Dawkins too.
Killed off the other copy of this thread, in case you were looking for it ;D
Ditto Dawkins...
Don't let them rile you, guys. That'll just end in them - reasonably - pegging you as a nut.
Educate the fence-sitters by all means, and maintain a balanced view for the young. But trying to deconvert the zealot is futile and gives them more strength and purspose.
I love to give the "OK, if that's what you want to believe..." and walk away. Moral high ground every time.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 14, 2011, 09:47:37 AM
can't stand that smug git Dawkins though.
funnily enough, that's exactly how I feel. Glad to see that tank and scissorlegs feel that way too, I've always found him far too smug and smarmy, and appearing to have a huge ego too, that I always dislike. Plus I'm sure he's made far too much money out of his atheism in TV and book sales, and the after dinner speech circuit. It's been 'a nice little earner' as Arthur Daley used to say!
Yet I've found that a lot of Christians I've encountered online (thankfully I dopn't know any in my everyday life) seem to think that all atheists worship the man like JC himself. They always seem a bit shocked to find out that some atheists find Dawkins really quite irritating, and have always been atheists and weren't converted by him.
I never capitalize the word 'god' either, the Christian god is not the only god, and is no different from Zeus, Baal, Isis or any other (although obviously I do still capitalize Christian, just like I might Greek or Jew).
Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with being intolerant of religion, but I've always been a pretty fervent (yet open-minded) atheist. The more religious texts I've read and the more I've read about religions, the more convinced I've become they're 100% man-made. At the end of the day, radical atheists don't fly planes into buildings, persecute and murder people of differing beliefs, behead people for sorcery or stone homosexuals to death, unlike radical theists.
But I think the problem is religion, and not the belief in sky-fairies per se. I've never met an intolerant, violent or dangerous deist or pantheist (admittedly I haven't met many!) Religions such as Christianity, Islam and Judaism were written by small-minded intolerant people in much less enlightened times, and it shows in the teachings of their books, and the countless atrocities these books have inspired throughout history
I kinda' like the smug professor, but he can sometimes have the opposite of the intended effect when it comes to promoting skepticism in godly matters.
That said, good post, Norfolk. I agree with the overall sentiment and can see the same tendencies in me.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on October 14, 2011, 10:56:15 AM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 14, 2011, 09:47:37 AM
can't stand that smug git Dawkins though.
funnily enough, that's exactly how I feel. Glad to see that tank and scissorlegs feel that way too, I've always found him far too smug and smarmy, and appearing to have a huge ego too, that I always dislike. Plus I'm sure he's made far too much money out of his atheism in TV and book sales, and the after dinner speech circuit. It's been 'a nice little earner' as Arthur Daley used to say!
Yet I've found that a lot of Christians I've encountered online (thankfully I dopn't know any in my everyday life) seem to think that all atheists worship the man like JC himself. They always seem a bit shocked to find out that some atheists find Dawkins really quite irritating, and have always been atheists and weren't converted by him.
I never capitalize the word 'god' either, the Christian god is not the only god, and is no different from Zeus, Baal, Isis or any other (although obviously I do still capitalize Christian, just like I might Greek or Jew).
Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with being intolerant of religion, but I've always been a pretty fervent (yet open-minded) atheist. The more religious texts I've read and the more I've read about religions, the more convinced I've become they're 100% man-made. At the end of the day, radical atheists don't fly planes into buildings, persecute and murder people of differing beliefs, behead people for sorcery or stone homosexuals to death, unlike radical theists.
But I think the problem is religion, and not the belief in sky-fairies per se. I've never met an intolerant, violent or dangerous deist or pantheist (admittedly I haven't met many!) Religions such as Christianity, Islam and Judaism were written by small-minded intolerant people in much less enlightened times, and it shows in the teachings of their books, and the countless atrocities these books have inspired throughout history
Yes TFL, that reminds me of the quote "No one kills in the name of Atheism" (which is only partially true - see Communism)
I found Dawkins making unfounded conclusions in his work and this put me off for the same reasons I dislike Christian belief. And while I do respect his fervence and (purportedly) scientific approach this does come over as smarmy.
I don't suppose any
committed Christians have been deconverted by Dawkins, Sagan, Hitchens or any other outspoken Atheist. I'm sure these authors are predominantly used as a resource for already Atheist readers (well, that's my story anyway).
The more I hear from Christians, the more I am convinced they are defective. I cannot, therefore, derive any satisfaction from arguing with them. I'm not prepared to engage a Christian on philosophical matters any more than I would any other looney. Just walk away...
Quote from: Scissorlegs on October 14, 2011, 11:57:25 AM
Yes TFL, that reminds me of the quote "No one kills in the name of Atheism" (which is only partially true - see Communism)
that's true, but I don't equate Communism with atheism, just as I don't equate Christianity with theism per se. It was an atheistic ideology, but it had plenty of other elements to it, atheism wasn't the overriding part of the ideology. Plus it always bugs me when Christians throw the old 'Stalin and Mao were atheists' line at me. I just think strong monolithic ideology is dangerous, be it Communism or Christianity. For me Christianity is as bad as Communism, just as basic deistic theism is not inherently any more dangerous than atheism
Quote
The more I hear from Christians, the more I am convinced they are defective. I cannot, therefore, derive any satisfaction from arguing with them. I'm not prepared to engage a Christian on philosophical matters any more than I would any other looney. Just walk away...
:D too true!
Quote from: Scissorlegs on October 14, 2011, 11:57:25 AM
{snip}
I don't suppose any committed Christians have been deconverted by Dawkins, Sagan, Hitchens or any other outspoken Atheist. I'm sure these authors are predominantly used as a resource for already Atheist readers (well, that's my story anyway).
I used to frequent the Richard Dawkins Forum for a few years where I had a post count over 20,000 and was a moderator for a while. There where people who joined and cited The God Delusion as either causing the first crack in their faith or being the last straw that killed off their beliefs. There is still an area on his site called 'Converts Corner' where the de-conversion emails are posted. Now we are not talking thousands last time I looked so the quantity of de-conversions directly attributed to TGD is small in the scheme of things but it has done the trick for some people.
I'm really pleased that I'm not the only one. :)
I've had a few people tell me that I am overly radical for no good reason, that I have a grudge against religion and christians and they ask "why are you like that? Why not live and let live?" and I started to think there might be something wrong with me. ???
"You're just as bad as anybody preaching religion and trying to shove it down your throat" they say, "because you try and shove atheism down people's throats in the same way" - well yeah, but I'm happy to be "just as bad" as my opinion is based in reason and evidence and fact!
I'm tollerent of theists and deists beliefs in so long as they don't express them around me. I feel they have the right to express their beliefs, but equally I think I have the right to question and express my opinion on any thing anyone expresses publicly. It's difficult for me to let things go that don't make any sense. But I have been noticing that more and more religious beliefs are being expressed publicly nowadays.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on October 14, 2011, 04:29:51 PM
I'm really pleased that I'm not the only one. :)
I've had a few people tell me that I am overly radical for no good reason, that I have a grudge against religion and christians and they ask "why are you like that? Why not live and let live?" and I started to think there might be something wrong with me. ???
"You're just as bad as anybody preaching religion and trying to shove it down your throat" they say, "because you try and shove atheism down people's throats in the same way" - well yeah, but I'm happy to be "just as bad" as my opinion is based in reason and evidence and fact!
I think if one is only reactive that the 'shoving your opinion' argument is a load of bollocks.
Am I, along with Asmo, the only one who likes Dawkins here? :P
Anyways, to sum up my response to the OP, I just find theists and their take on things so frustrating, and the more I know them the more frustrating they become. I just don't like small and ego centered philosophies. The place is just too big for any theistic worldview.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on October 14, 2011, 11:57:25 AM
Yes TFL, that reminds me of the quote "No one kills in the name of Atheism" (which is only partially true - see Communism)
This has become one of my pet peeves. I think there's an entire historical context you're ignoring there.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on October 14, 2011, 07:34:58 PM
Am I, along with Asmo, the only one who likes Dawkins here? :P
Anyways, to sum up my response to the OP, I just find theists and their take on things so frustrating, and the more I know them the more frustrating they become. I just don't like small and ego centered philosophies. The place is just too big for any theistic worldview.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on October 14, 2011, 11:57:25 AM
Yes TFL, that reminds me of the quote "No one kills in the name of Atheism" (which is only partially true - see Communism)
This has become one of my pet peeves. I think there's an entire historical context you're ignoring there.
Do you mean the historical context of Atheitst Communism? Yes, I'm sorry, it was a flippant comment.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on October 14, 2011, 07:43:00 PM
Do you mean the historical context of Atheitst Communism? Yes, I'm sorry, it was a flippant comment.
Yeah. I got into a very long and tedious argument about why atheists don't kill for atheism with a Catholic on another forum and I still have nightmares over it. :-X
As a former believer, I can sympathize with theists. However, now that I am a heathen, I am downright embarrassed about some of my former beliefs. What was I thinking? Once I realized I didn't believe anymore (versus just being turned off religion), it was like a switch flipped in my head and suddenly all the illogical thoughts and explanations that go along with belief in god became totally clear to me. Now, I have trouble accepting that anybody believes this crap. It's kind of like when you're high and you look around and think all the world must be high as well. (I never got high often, and don't anymore, but I remember the strong feeling that everyone I met must also be under the influence.)
I find it hard to make friends, especially in the fairly conservative town I live in. I'll be talking to another mom at the park, and as soon as I see the cross around her neck or hear her mention church, I feel quite crestfallen because I know that she believes in at least some of the loony ideas that go along with Christianity. Yes, I judge her immediately. Yet I used to be her! I even had a fish on my car and the WWJD bracelet in several different colors.
Anyway, I get what you're saying N&C. I've only been an atheist for a few years, but in that time my tolerance for the religious folk has really plummeted.
Quote from: Good and Godless on October 15, 2011, 04:45:40 AM
As a former believer, I can sympathize with theists. However, now that I am a heathen, I am downright embarrassed about some of my former beliefs. What was I thinking? Once I realized I didn't believe anymore (versus just being turned off religion), it was like a switch flipped in my head and suddenly all the illogical thoughts and explanations that go along with belief in god became totally clear to me. Now, I have trouble accepting that anybody believes this crap.
Couldn't have said it better myself, this is how I felt as well when I drifted from my former church. I am deeply ashamed that I used to believe in pregnant virgins and a zombie who rose from the dead after 3 days and a sky daddy. It used to hurt my feelings when someone would sneer and laugh at my former faith but looking back on it I really don't blame them. It is complete lunacy and the only reason these beliefs (weather it's christianity, islam or whatever) are even tolerated to begin with is because the followers are in large numbers (yes just because lots of ppl say/think it's true makes it true *rolls eyes* ::) ). If it this was only a handful of people who had these beliefs they would be written off as clinically insane but because organized religon is worldwide with millions of followers we have to "respect" and "tolerate" their beliefs.
The ignorance and the groupthink is just mind boggling to me, but what bothers me the most is not so much that they believe this crap but that theists want to push this crap in our public schools and laws, get in the way of scientific advancement and healthcare (ie: stem cells and abortion, historically persecuting scientists who have made discoveries that have proven religous texts wrong etc.), and lets not forget the theists who kill and destroy in the name of their god. Meanwhile I see their clergy living the high life in nice mansions and driving escalades.
I am totally with you Norfolk, I sometimes cannot understand or even begin to tolerate theists who insist that we convert, pass laws, restrict our healthcare, and change our educational curriculum all in the name of "tolerance" for their unproven bronze age myth.
Quote from: Tank on October 14, 2011, 10:26:31 AM
I could have written your post myself.
This was my thought as well.
I think my real problem started when I entered the Navy. The kicker is, they didn't really attack me for being an Atheist. Although there were some snide remarks due to the fact that I refused to go to Church. But the main attack came from the bible belters who identified me as a Jew. I never went to Temple. I didn't wear a Star of David around my neck and I had never considered myself to be a Jew, nor had I ever been accepted as a Jew. Not by my family nor friends. But I LOOK like a Jew. I look like my grandmother on my father's side of the family. That was enough to be identified as such. I was nick named "Christ Killer". It was quite unnerving.
I was 19 however and didn't stay long in the military. I was very angry for a long time after that. I did calm down eventually but it left a bad taste in my mouth that has continued to build over the years. It seemed to well up again when my husband and I moved to AZ and found ourselves surrounded by Mormons. I had met Mormons before and didn't think they were any less reasonable than any other Christian. However, when an entire city is completely taken over by Mormons, as is the case in Mesa, AZ, they tend to form their own little world and non-members aren't invited. They take over every aspect of the community. For example, my husband worked at a Mormon owned company. He's a web-developer. The company kept hiring an outside company (also Mormon owned) to design sites that should have been designed by their own in-house team. The outside company would either screw up the site or simply not finish it and it would then be sent back to the in-house team to fix their screw-ups. After 3 years we had had enough and moved back to Southern California.
But I think most of my anger and lack of patience now has come more from what has gone on in this country in the last few years. The very people who are screwing us over are standing up in front of the brainwashed masses claiming family values and calling us immoral heathens, while they lie through their teeth and rob us blind.
Quote from: MathKat on October 16, 2011, 09:02:03 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 14, 2011, 10:26:31 AM
I could have written your post myself.
This was my thought as well.
I think my real problem started when I entered the Navy. The kicker is, they didn't really attack me for being an Atheist. Although there were some snide remarks due to the fact that I refused to go to Church. But the main attack came from the bible belters who identified me as a Jew. I never went to Temple. I didn't wear a Star of David around my neck and I had never considered myself to be a Jew, nor had I ever been accepted as a Jew. Not by my family nor friends. But I LOOK like a Jew. I look like my grandmother on my father's side of the family. That was enough to be identified as such. I was nick named "Christ Killer". It was quite unnerving.
That's pathetic.
Quote from: MathKat on October 16, 2011, 09:02:03 AM
I was nick named "Christ Killer". It was quite unnerving.
Seriously?! :o
...Cool!
Ooghhh, I can sympathize... I've been having the same internal debate. I would say a majority of my friends are theists, and as much as I love those guys sometimes I just want to grab them and shake them and beg them to stop wasting their lives on this crap. It's hard because I've been on their side of the fence, and I know why they stick to what they do, but I can't find the right words to break them out of it. No single person wrung the sky-daddy faith out of me. It was a slow process and I think it's probably futile to actively try to de-convert most people, because they've been taught to cover their eyes and plug their ears the minute conversations start heading down that road.
It's just so frustrating.
Theism in principle doesn't bother me, but certain beliefs held by theists do, for example:
1. Hell is forever. (Think about how long that is.)
2. Unbelievers go to hell.
3. Behaviors that harm no one are sins.
4. Sinners go to hell unless they do X or Y or Z or whatever.
Anyone who can seriously hold the above views must be very cold inside.