Hi
I live in Pennsylvania and have been an atheist since I was very young. I used to be a research scientist, but have switched careers and now run my own photography business. I have never had a problem with declaring myself an atheist and was never in the closet about it. Surprisingly, not one single person has ever given me grief about it or tried to engage in conversation in an attempt to convert me. I think anyone who knows even a little about me realizes it would be futile!
Lately, though, I've been a bit flummoxed about how to respond to well-meaning religious people. My mom (also an atheist) had a lung transplant two months ago and is doing poorly. She has been hospitalized since her surgery on July 21 and has experienced all manner of complications. It's been extremely difficult, but I am doing well. This situation is so out of my control and the staff at the hospital so supremely competent that there is just no point in me being stressed out or worried. She doesn't need the extra stress and it's only harmful to me. If this particular institution can't help her, nobody can and that's just life. People get sick and die, especially parents and that's just the way it is.
The problem is statements like this:
Hand your concerns and worries about your mom over to God. He is there by her side throught this whole ordeal.
That's from a friend of the family with whom we recently reconnected after not seeing her and her husband for many years. I hear hogwash like that all the time Do I bother to tell them that we can do without the god crap? If so, how would I state that politely? Or is it just one of those times in which one keeps their mouth shut and accepts the caring sentiment? I realize they're trying to be supportive, but it just rankles me.
I know these people mean well but those types of statements piss me off for a couple of reasons. One, they assume that I believe the same thing they do. Two, it discredits the doctors and staff at the hospital who are verging on superhumans in their competence and caring. Three, I'm handling this as well as can be expected, probably better than a lot of people would. It's insulting to me to assume that I'm just going to pieces and that I need support from some fictitious freak in the sky.
I really wish I had a tactful way to express gratitude for their caring sentiment, but let them know that the god bunk is just not welcome. ANyone been in this situation?
thanks
Melody
hi Melody
I can understand how such comments could vex you, they would me too. If I'm honest I'd be quite blunt with these people and say 'thanks for your support, I appreciate it a lot, but I don't believe in your god. I'll put my trust in the doctors and medical science.'
My mum died when I was 21, but thankfully I don't really know any religious people and I don't remember having to put up with any of that kind of rubbish. I would have been quite rude to anyone who said something like that back then, I'm mellower these days.
oh, and welcome to the forum.
Greetings and welcome, Melody.
Seems to me all you can do is grit your teeth and remember that they mean well. Not easy, I know. ::)
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 23, 2011, 02:31:14 PM
thankfully I don't really know any religious people and I don't remember having to put up with any of that kind of rubbish.
Wow. I can't imagine being able to say that! I live in farm country and the jesus hogwash here is pretty pervasive. I only know a few other atheists; my siblings, mom and a few friends.
Welcome to HAF.
I'd just tell them that while I appreciate their concern that since I'm not religious and value the hard work of medical staff that comments about turning it over to god rub me the wrong way and I'd appreciate if they not mention it again.
Quote from: Melody on September 23, 2011, 01:26:53 PM
Hi
I live in Pennsylvania and have been an atheist since I was very young. I used to be a research scientist, but have switched careers and now run my own photography business. I have never had a problem with declaring myself an atheist and was never in the closet about it. Surprisingly, not one single person has ever given me grief about it or tried to engage in conversation in an attempt to convert me. I think anyone who knows even a little about me realizes it would be futile!
Lately, though, I've been a bit flummoxed about how to respond to well-meaning religious people. My mom (also an atheist) had a lung transplant two months ago and is doing poorly. She has been hospitalized since her surgery on July 21 and has experienced all manner of complications. It's been extremely difficult, but I am doing well. This situation is so out of my control and the staff at the hospital so supremely competent that there is just no point in me being stressed out or worried. She doesn't need the extra stress and it's only harmful to me. If this particular institution can't help her, nobody can and that's just life. People get sick and die, especially parents and that's just the way it is.
The problem is statements like this:
Hand your concerns and worries about your mom over to God. He is there by her side throught this whole ordeal.
That's from a friend of the family with whom we recently reconnected after not seeing her and her husband for many years. I hear hogwash like that all the time Do I bother to tell them that we can do without the god crap? If so, how would I state that politely? Or is it just one of those times in which one keeps their mouth shut and accepts the caring sentiment? I realize they're trying to be supportive, but it just rankles me.
I know these people mean well but those types of statements piss me off for a couple of reasons. One, they assume that I believe the same thing they do. Two, it discredits the doctors and staff at the hospital who are verging on superhumans in their competence and caring. Three, I'm handling this as well as can be expected, probably better than a lot of people would. It's insulting to me to assume that I'm just going to pieces and that I need support from some fictitious freak in the sky.
I really wish I had a tactful way to express gratitude for their caring sentiment, but let them know that the god bunk is just not welcome. ANyone been in this situation?
thanks
Melody
Hi Melody
I think you have the answer already, I bolded the underlying issue in your post.
You don't need the additional stress that these people are unintentionally putting on you. They know that you are already stressed, that gives you a little leeway in your behaviour. I would simply say something along the lines of "I know you mean well but I don't believe what you believe and I find what you say upsetting." It's simple, true and to the point. Given the situation you face (my father died of lung cancer) you have enough on your plate and you need to assert yourself on this matter.
Welcome to HAF
Regards
Chris
Welcome.
You hit the nail on the head - all of the situation is out of your control. Some people make comments like this sincerely, others may be sincere but trying to evangelize. If they know your are an atheist, these statements are rude. Hospitals are not conducive to religious discussions or debates, but some people are on a "mission" of course.
In any case, your main concern is your Mom and only you can evaluate if responding to these comments will help or hurt her situation or yours.
This is a personal decision, but if it were me, I would probably just say something like "Thank you for your concern. My Mom is getting wonderful care from the dedicated doctors and staff here, and that gives me peace and hope."
Then, if they know you and your Mom are atheists and made these comments, send them a book about atheism for a Christmas present or whatever religious holiday they celebrate. If they don't think evangelizing in a hospital is rude, they should not take offense at getting a book on atheism on their favorite religious holiday!
I have a friend who had the same operation about 10 years ago and is doing fine. Best wishes.
No joke, my aunt just emailed me this about half an hour ago:
I have never asked you this before, but do you think it would help your mom if a minister or someone from the church came to talk to her? I don't know what her spiritual thoughts have been.
I told her it would most likely irritate my mom beyond measure since she's an atheist and always has been. Once again, as it is for most all of us non-believers, the burden of consideration is on me. Here I am being rubbed the wrong way by all these comments and if I say anything, you know darn well I will be branded and ungrateful hater for rebuking these kind and comforting words of solace in my time of sorrow.
Chris, I like this point you made:
that gives you a little leeway in your behaviour.
Maybe I will indeed throw niceties to the wind. I almost feel like doing a blog post telling people we just don't need their jesus juice. Kind words, thoughts, gestures, yes, we'll take all we can get.
Melody
I just re-read my post and I think I should add that my father died in 1977, treatments have improved no end since then.
Do give your Mum our best wishes and get her to join in here. Did you see that atheist evangelising ;D
Quote from: Melody on September 23, 2011, 03:14:22 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 23, 2011, 02:31:14 PM
thankfully I don't really know any religious people and I don't remember having to put up with any of that kind of rubbish.
Wow. I can't imagine being able to say that! I live in farm country and the jesus hogwash here is pretty pervasive. I only know a few other atheists; my siblings, mom and a few friends.
I live in a city in the UK, thankfully we're a pretty secular nation. All my friends are atheists, agnostics and a handful of pagans, and I don't really know or come into contact with any Christians :D
Quote from: Melody on September 23, 2011, 04:49:47 PM
No joke, my aunt just emailed me this about half an hour ago:
I have never asked you this before, but do you think it would help your mom if a minister or someone from the church came to talk to her? I don't know what her spiritual thoughts have been.
I told her it would most likely irritate my mom beyond measure since she's an atheist and always has been.
Good on you, I do find that email pretty outrageous, and feel you're well within your rights to be quite blunt in your response. I'm a staunch atheist and if I was ill in hospital and a someone emailed that to my sister or close family, I'd want them to tell that person how inappropriate a suggestion that is in no uncertain terms.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 23, 2011, 05:06:20 PM
Quote from: Melody on September 23, 2011, 04:49:47 PM
No joke, my aunt just emailed me this about half an hour ago:
I have never asked you this before, but do you think it would help your mom if a minister or someone from the church came to talk to her? I don't know what her spiritual thoughts have been.
I told her it would most likely irritate my mom beyond measure since she's an atheist and always has been.
Good on you, I do find that email pretty outrageous, and feel you're well within your rights to be quite blunt in your response. I'm a staunch atheist and if I was ill in hospital and a someone emailed that to my sister or close family, I'd want them to tell that person how inappropriate a suggestion that is in no uncertain terms.
I feel that what Melody's aunt said was pretty sensible as the aunt states "I don't know what her spiritual thoughts have been.". So the aunt isn't assuming that a minister is a good thing, she's just asking. How can one find out things if one does not ask questions? The aunt is feeling her way, unless of course she knows Melody's mum is an atheist in which case she's fishing for souls which is pretty despicable IMO.
Quote from: Tank on September 23, 2011, 05:14:43 PM
I feel that what Melody's aunt said was pretty sensible as the aunt states "I don't know what her spiritual thoughts have been.". So the aunt isn't assuming that a minister is a good thing, she's just asking. How can one find out things if one does not ask questions? The aunt is feeling her way, unless of course she knows Melody's mum is an atheist in which case she's fishing for souls which is pretty despicable IMO.
True, maybe it's just me, I wouldn't appreciate relatives saying those things and would have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on September 23, 2011, 05:18:53 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 23, 2011, 05:14:43 PM
I feel that what Melody's aunt said was pretty sensible as the aunt states "I don't know what her spiritual thoughts have been.". So the aunt isn't assuming that a minister is a good thing, she's just asking. How can one find out things if one does not ask questions? The aunt is feeling her way, unless of course she knows Melody's mum is an atheist in which case she's fishing for souls which is pretty despicable IMO.
True, maybe it's just me, I wouldn't appreciate relatives saying those things and would have a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.
No it's not just you. Over the last decade I have become increasingly sensitive to what I see as theistic insensitivity.
People making comments to you is one thing. Sending a minister to your Mom is another, although at least she asked before just doing it. It sounds like you have a good relationship with your Mom, so tell your aunt that your Mom would tell you if she wanted anything else then what she is getting, or she would request it herself.
Also, I know that even hospitals that are religiously affiliated will specify that a patient does not want visits from the clergy employed there who sometimes "make their rounds" on each floor. You can check into that if appropriate. Even secular hospitals often have clergy on site, but they usually will not visit unless requested. However, as a former fundamentalist minister, I will warn you that some clergy are rude enough to make visits if requested by ANY family member or friend, not just the immediate family.
Though I know you want to, you cannot "protect" your Mom 24/7 from such rude people. Give her some credit, in that she will probably handle any such approach just fine. You are putting a ton of pressure on yourself right now, even though it is well-intentioned. Get your rest and be there for your Mom.
Welcome to the forum from a fellow Pennsylvanian! And from a fellow photographer (albeit part-time).
All the good advice I can think of has been elaborated upon. Go with your own conscience and some of this great advice.
Feel free to ask anything, or to send a PM if you're not comfortable asking something in the open forum.
Welcome!
If I were in your situation, the first thing I would want to do is ask them if they really think that praying actually affects anything other than give them a sense of actually doing something to ease their conscious. If they already know that you and your mom are atheists, then it's just rude. If it were my family member, I would get pissed.
Anyways, I hope everything turns out to be ok for your mom, and that she recovers. Having a really good team of trained professional doctors on her case is already much better than many people get.
I am very glad i found this forum. All of you are just fantastic. My mom is at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore and religion hasn't even been an issue. They asked if she had a preference upon admission and it hasn't been addressed since. THey have an amazingly wide variety of races and nationalities employed there so I think it's pretty much a non-issue with them.
My aunt, the one who asked me about the minister, is really religious but I do have to give her credit in being respectful towards me and others who don't think the same as she does. I know that she simply cannot wrap her mind around the fact that I am a heathen sinner, but she never pushes the issue with me and I do spend a decent amount of time with her since we do some charity work together. I love the fact that my atheism just twists her mind. She lives in this little narrowminded town where even being a vegetarian is considered blasphemy so I consider myself her periodic dose of reality.
Thanks for the kind words about my mom. This has been a long, miserable road.
Welcome, I hope your Aunt backs down a little now. Family illness is never easy :-[
Welcome to Haf. First off, really sorry to hear about everything going on with your mum.
It definitely doesn't help that you have to deal with insensative people. I would be blunt and tell them flatly not to bring up any religious mumbo jumbo....
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 30, 2011, 07:15:35 AM
Welcome to Haf. First off, really sorry to hear about everything going on with your mum.
It definitely doesn't help that you have to deal with insensative people. I would be blunt and tell them flatly not to bring up any religious mumbo jumbo....
...cos that approach often works with Christians...
And that's not insensative (sic) how? I'm sure Auntie is upset too. Not sure that's particularly helpful, Sweet. We're not all fundies here, Melody.
Be the bigger person, Melody, and let it go. And if she oversteps the mark again tell her that if she thinks religion helps, please practice it more privately.
Really, apart from buzzing like an annoyingly persistent fly, what harm is she doing.
Why are you quoting me? o_o I don't think telling someone to stop bringing up any religious stuff for a sick atheist is insensitive....
She's obviously already under a lot of stress and doesnt need a religious family member making it harder.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 30, 2011, 02:35:35 PM
Why are you quoting me? o_o I don't think telling someone to stop bringing up any religious stuff for a sick atheist is insensitive....
She's obviously already under a lot of stress and doesnt need a religious family member making it harder.
Yes, you're right Sweet - I didn't mean to get your back up...again. But attacking the woman who's only trying to help (pathetic and misguided though it may be) would also be insensitive. This will achieve nothing but ill-feeling. I'm not sure that advising a beligerantly anti-christian stance is going to get the message heard appropriately. This may well be passed off as an outburst of grief - then she might make it her mission to 'save' poor Melody. A low-key but surefooted response is more likely to be respected... IMHO.
I do have difficulty adjusting my 'religioscope' to attune with the sentiments of you U.S Atheists who are vehemently anti-Christian. And I'm not saying you're not justified in the way you feel. I guess it's an equal and opposite stance to that of the American Christians with whom I do not come into contact. I personally just can't summon enough opposition to agree with your reaction.
I think I'll start a thread about Christian tolerance and we can debate it there...
Quote from: Scissorlegs on September 30, 2011, 04:21:35 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 30, 2011, 02:35:35 PM
Why are you quoting me? o_o I don't think telling someone to stop bringing up any religious stuff for a sick atheist is insensitive....
She's obviously already under a lot of stress and doesnt need a religious family member making it harder.
Yes, you're right Sweet - I didn't mean to get your back up...again. But attacking the woman who's only trying to help (pathetic and misguided though it may be) would also be insensitive. This will achieve nothing but ill-feeling. I'm not sure that advising a beligerantly anti-christian stance is going to get the message heard appropriately. This may well be passed off as an outburst of grief - then she might make it her mission to 'save' poor Melody. A low-key but surefooted response is more likely to be respected... IMHO.
I do have difficulty adjusting my 'religioscope' to attune with the sentiments of you U.S Atheists who are vehemently anti-Christian. And I'm not saying you're not justified in the way you feel. I guess it's an equal and opposite stance to that of the American Christians with whom I do not come into contact. I personally just can't summon enough opposition to agree with your reaction.
I think I'll start a thread about Christian tolerance and we can debate it there...
I'm just a bit puzzled, because what I suggested doesn't seem to differ much from what anyone else in this thread said. I feel singled out.
Not to mention, now you are puting words in my mouth. I never said or suggested "attacking" anyone.
Sweetdeath
The problem here is cross cultural UK vs US. I'm used to the way you put things and I've come across lots of Americans who express themselves the way you do. If you were British you would come over as pretty/very aggressive. In my experience Americans often take a 'prove me wrong' adversarial stance in an argument. Brit's often do it a little differently, we'll throw all the ideas on the table and pick out the best bits and hopefully come up with a solution that is a mixture of the two which were started with.
I'm just very confused is all. :(
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 30, 2011, 05:18:54 PM
I'm just very confused is all. :(
Then just don't worry, and have a hug!
Sweet, if we are to get involved in the politics of the religious whom we do not wish to offend, we must operate within the bounds of civility. Yours was the most blunt of the (mostly moderate) replies and constituted incivility in the given situation. Having your beliefs be called mumbo-jumbo is as insulting to a Christian as it is to you. I've no doubt that Auntie Christian would have felt attacked.
Nothing personal, nothing mean, just my opinion.
Peace!
...And here's a hug...
(88)
(I made that emoticon up...)
I didn't tell melody to say "mumbo jumbo" exactly. My words really .I just agreed with everyone when they said she should tell her aunt to back off, because it is rude.
I don't feel any remorse for religious people, but I am not purposely rude to them immediately. This situation is very intense and emotional, even more reason to keep religion out.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 30, 2011, 06:12:36 PM
I didn't tell melody to say "mumbo jumbo" exactly. My words really .I just agreed with everyone when they said she should tell her aunt to back off, because it is rude.
I don't feel any remorse for religious people, but I am not purposely rude to them immediately. This situation is very intense and emotional, even more reason to keep religion out.
But not from the religious person's perspective. From a Christian perspective there is every need to seek comfort for themselves and others in distressing circumstances.
Hi Melody,
I'm a new member of the forum too, and let me first tell you my heart goes out over 5,000 miles of ocean to you and your family. What's happening to your mum is awful and my thoughts are with you and your family. There was a time that I would pray for you, but that time has thankfully passed. All I can do is send you good wishes, love and empathy. It's not much but I hope it brings you some small comfort.
There's not really much I can add to what's already been said on this topic, except to say that being blunt isn't really the answer. Their intentions are nothing but good and honourable, and I don't think they would be too offended at all if you were to politely decline any spiritual help. If they're proper Christians, they'll realise you have a lot on your plate at the moment and that the last thing you need is religious mumbo jumbo being forced on you and your mum. It's just enough for them to be there for moral support without any spiritual overtones or intentions, and you need to also politely make this clear. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know here, but that is what I would do. Be as diplomatic as possible with them.
Keep us posted as to how your mum - and you - are doing, yeah?
Take care.
I think in cases like this, I think you might have to grit your teeth. It's hard I know, but they really do mean well and they don't understand that it's rude.
I would say something like, "Thank you for your kind thoughts." Or something like that.