Brian Cox on Cern's baffling light-speed find (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15034852)
QuotePuzzling results from Cern, home of the Large Hadron Collider, have confounded physicists - because it seems subatomic particles have beaten the speed of light.
Neutrinos sent through the ground from Cern toward the Gran Sasso laboratory 732km away in Italy seemed to show up a tiny fraction of a second early.
Something appears to be moving faster than the speed of light.
They've gone to plaid!
I'm not quite sure what to think of this. Could the equipment be inaccurate?
Quote from: Xjeepguy on September 23, 2011, 11:43:46 AM
They've gone to plaid!
I'm not quite sure what to think of this. Could the equipment be inaccurate?
Well that's the reason the team published as they now need some other people to pull their work apart. That's a brave thing to do. Can you imagine claiming a discovery like this and then finding it was a false reading, it would be a nightmare. So this publication is along the lines of "We think we have found xyz. Please check our method."
I wouldn't be surprised that something can break the speed of light barrier.
By my logic, space would be full of black holes if this "limitation" could not be beaten.
The big bang is percieved to be from a singularity, a black hole is perceived to be a singularity and there is a theory of an inflationary period within the early stages of the big bang. It makes sense to me that sub atomic "particles" can go that fast.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/technology/science/scientists-in-shock-after-breaking-speed-of-light/article2176328/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/technology/science/scientists-in-shock-after-breaking-speed-of-light/article2176328/)
Scientists at the world's largest physics lab said Thursday they have clocked neutrinos travelling faster than light. That's something that according to Einstein's 1905 special theory of relativity – the famous E (equals) mc2 equation – just doesn't happen.
Wow. I really wonder what the full implications of this will be if they can confirm it.
Oops! Tank beat me to it!
Topics merged 8)
While this is very interesting I can't say I'm surprised...I operate on the general idea that pretty much everything we think we know could be shown to be false as we acquire more information. Since we are so new into researching quantum level bits of our world and space in general I keep on expecting there to be a big change in how we view even the most basic of models.
I'm wondering how this will end up affecting our understanding of the universe and if 'creation' models will have to be adjusted.
It's great to watch science at work here. I love it. What will be disappointing will be the tools like Deepak Chopra who will now incorporate this into their books before anything is even verified or falsified.
Quote from: McQ on September 23, 2011, 06:24:11 PM
It's great to watch science at work here. I love it. What will be disappointing will be the tools like Deepak Chopra who will now incorporate this into their books before anything is even verified or falsified.
This.
I just remembered the future, and forgot what I was doing.
Amazing. It would be really cool if it were really confirmed to be an accurate reading.
I really don't know squat about this, but if I were to guess, I'd say that Einstein's model would be restricted to some frameworks only, such as the mentioned 3 D universe, but not necessarily false.
Particles Appear to Travel Faster Than Light: OPERA Experiment Reports Anomaly in Flight Time of Neutrinos (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110923084425.htm)
Another article, this time via Science Daily.
Quote...The OPERA result is based on the observation of over 15000 neutrino events measured at Gran Sasso, and appears to indicate that the neutrinos travel at a velocity 20 parts per million above the speed of light, nature's cosmic speed limit. Given the potential far-reaching consequences of such a result, independent measurements are needed before the effect can either be refuted or firmly established. This is why the OPERA collaboration has decided to open the result to broader scrutiny. The collaboration's result is available on the preprint server arXiv (http://arxiv.org/list/hep-ex/new).
"This result comes as a complete surprise," said OPERA spokesperson, Antonio Ereditato of the University of Bern. "After many months of studies and cross checks we have not found any instrumental effect that could explain the result of the measurement. While OPERA researchers will continue their studies, we are also looking forward to independent measurements to fully assess the nature of this observation."...
This is interesting...though if Einstein was right and the speed of light really is the top limit of the universe and neutrinos beat that limit because they take short cuts through other dimensions, as Brian Cox said, then why doesn't light also take those short cuts?
It's a pity this came a bit too late, if CERN had mentioned this earlier, they might have already added a question about this in our national college entry exam. ::) Whether people know the answer or not doesn't really matter to them.
Quote from: Stevil on September 23, 2011, 12:01:41 PM
By my logic, space would be full of black holes if this "limitation" could not be beaten.
In my mind, space couldn't have black holes without something being able to exceed the speed of light.
Perhaps the universe we see is already in a black hole.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2011, 04:33:22 PM
This is interesting...though if Einstein was right and the speed of light really is the top limit of the universe and neutrinos beat that limit because they take short cuts through other dimensions, as Brian Cox said, then why doesn't light also take those short cuts?
"The course of least resistance." Electrons, when faced with the choice of passing through a plastic insulator or a copper wire core go through the copper. It's possible that the course of least resistance for a neutrino and a photon are different.
It's relatively easy for us to examine the behaviour of photons compared to neutrinos so we know a lot more about the behavior of photons. It is only in the last few decades that we have had the technology to measure the behaviours of neutrinos and thus we are finding things out about them.
Quote from: Tank on September 24, 2011, 05:22:55 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2011, 04:33:22 PM
This is interesting...though if Einstein was right and the speed of light really is the top limit of the universe and neutrinos beat that limit because they take short cuts through other dimensions, as Brian Cox said, then why doesn't light also take those short cuts?
"The course of least resistance." Electrons, when faced with the choice of passing through a plastic insulator or a copper wire core go through the copper. It's possible that the course of least resistance for a neutrino and a photon are different.
It's relatively easy for us to examine the behaviour of photons compared to neutrinos so we know a lot more about the behavior of photons. It is only in the last few decades that we have had the technology to measure the behaviours of neutrinos and thus we are finding things out about them.
I see. So the fact that neutrinos interact little with other matter could be a reason? Because string theorist claim that manifestations such as dark matter could actually be the effects from another dimension. Assuming that's the case, since gravity is similar to electromagnetism, so that's why I wondered.
I'm probably making a huge mess out of this, so if a physicist is reading this I do apologise :P
Quote from: Chronos on September 24, 2011, 04:49:06 PM
Quote from: Stevil on September 23, 2011, 12:01:41 PM
By my logic, space would be full of black holes if this "limitation" could not be beaten.
In my mind, space couldn't have black holes without something being able to exceed the speed of light.
I completely agree with this
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2011, 06:36:10 PM
Because string theorist claim ...
I don't like string theory.
based on a one dimentional vibrating string...
possibility of 11 dimensions.
As far as I understand, reality is 3 dimentional.
Until someone proves otherwise, to me string theory is rubbish
String theory is purely mathematical, and as far as I know has never been experimentally proved, but I can't wrap my head around it anyways enough to really defend it.
Though they say that the other dimensions are curled up in microspace, which would be too small for our senses to experience in any way anyways.
Don't know if this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJJhHknEDPY&feature=channel_video_title) has anything to do with it, but this stuff just blows my mind.
Quote from: Whitney on September 23, 2011, 06:21:21 PM
While this is very interesting I can't say I'm surprised...I operate on the general idea that pretty much everything we think we know could be shown to be false as we acquire more information. Since we are so new into researching quantum level bits of our world and space in general I keep on expecting there to be a big change in how we view even the most basic of models.
I'm wondering how this will end up affecting our understanding of the universe and if 'creation' models will have to be adjusted.
Easy. Creationists will claim that this could explain why scientists are tricked by radioactive dating and declare dinosaur fossils to be millions of years old. They'll also claim that this shows the universe may not be 14 billion years old, but instead could have come to be 6000 years ago.
Additional commentary
Speed-of-light results under scrutiny at Cern (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484)
New theories emerge to disprove OPERA faster-than-light neutrinos claim (http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-10-theories-emerge-opera-faster-than-light-neutrinos.html)
Short article, reproduced in full here.
Quote
(PhysOrg.com) -- It's been just two weeks since the Oscillation Project with Emulsion-tRacking Apparatus (OPERA) team released its announcement claiming that they have been measuring muon neutrinos moving faster than the speed of light, causing an uproar in the physics community. Since that time, many papers (perhaps as many as 30 to the preprint server arXiv alone) have been published seeking ways to discredit the findings. Thus far though, only two seem credible.
The first is by Carlo Contaldi of Imperial College London. He says that it's likely the OPERA team failed to take gravity into their math equations and its effect on the clocks used to time the experiment. This because the degree of gravity at the two stations involved in the experiment (Gran Sasso National Laboratory in Italy and the CERN facility in Geneva) were different, thus one of the clocks would have been running slightly faster than the other, resulting in faulty timing. If this turns out to be the case, the OPERA team will most certainly be embarrassed to have overlooked such a basic problem with their study.
The second is by Andrew Cohen and Sheldon Glashow, who together point out that if the neutrinos in the study were in fact traveling as fast as claimed, they should have been radiating particles as they went, leaving behind a measurable trail; this due to the energy transfer that would occur between particles moving at different speeds. And since the OPERA team didn't observe any such trail (or at least didn't report it) it follows that the neutrinos weren't in fact traveling as fast as were claimed and the resultant speed measurements would have to be attributed to something else.
Neither of these papers actually disproves the results found by the OPERA team of course, the first merely suggests there may be a problem with the way the measurements were taken, the second takes more of a "it can't be true because of..." approach which only highlight the general disbelief in the physics community regarding the very possibility of anything, much less the speed of neutrinos traveling faster than the speed of light, messing with Einstein's most basic theories. The first can be addressed rather easily by the OPERA team if it so desires, and the second, well, if the neutrinos did in fact travel faster than the speed of light and did so without leaving a trail, a lot of physics theory will have to be rethought. Though that may not necessarily be a bad thing, physics is supposed to be about finding answers to explain the natural world around us after all, even if it means going back to the drawing board now and then.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ftl-neutrinos
I don't know. The cop's radar gun always clocks my speed as higher than it really was!
There are a lot of skeptics.
Lawrence Krause is usually pretty level headed, and he thinks the announcement was way premature. I think they are playing it to get more funding. Anyway, here is Krause quoted from the article:
Quote
It is an embarrassment as far as I am concerned. It was not unreasonable for the experimentalists to submit a paper with an unexplained result. But a press conference on a result, which is extremely unlikely to be correct, before the paper has been refereed, is very unfortunate—for CERN and for science. Once it is shown to be wrong, everyone loses credibility.
Others are saying that, if true, it totally upsets all previous conceptions of physics. Einstein was wrong!
But even if true, why are so many saying the sky is falling in the physics world? To me it sounds like they are saying General Relativity proved Newton false within his context of observation, when it actually addressed an expanded context. But that's just me.
Here is a quote from the article which states a view by theoretical physicist Heinrich Päs of the Technical University Dortmund in Germany:
Quote
It seems that the experimentalists were very careful, but this is really BIG news....
There are certain misunderstandings with people who are very cynical now: Even if true, this result neither proves Einstein wrong nor implies that causality has to be violated and time travel is possible. Things can move faster than the speed of light without violating Einstein if either the speed of light is not the limiting velocity as one can observe it for light propagation in media such as, for example, water. This can be modeled with background fields in the vacuum as has been proposed by [Indiana University physicist] Alan Kostelecky.
Or spacetime could be warped in a way so that neutrinos can take a shortcut without really being faster than the speed of light. As our three space plus one time dimensions look pretty flat, this would require an extra dimension (as proposed by [University of Hawaii at Manoa physicist] Sandip Pakvasa, [Vanderbilt University physicist] Tom Weiler and myself).
(Pas is quoted in another article here, which helps put his comments in context.)
http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2011/03/hadron-collider-time-machine/
Glad people smarter than I are working on this!
Merged AA's post to the original thread.
Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2011, 07:08:23 PM
Merged AA's post to the original thread.
Which I looked for, but obviously not very well.
Quote from: Always Amused on October 10, 2011, 11:35:32 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 10, 2011, 07:08:23 PM
Merged AA's post to the original thread.
Which I looked for, but obviously not very well.
Well it was a rather obscure title ;D
Neutrino experiment repeat at Cern finds same result (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15791236)
QuoteThe team which found that neutrinos may travel faster than light has carried out an improved version of their experiment - and confirmed the result.
If confirmed by other experiments, the find could undermine one of the basic principles of modern physics.
Critics of the first report in September had said that the long bunches of neutrinos (tiny particles) used could introduce an error into the test.
The new work used much shorter bunches...
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F55556000%2Fjpg%2F_55556200_cern_624_v2.jpg&hash=5ced9f608e64f42da38f425d4b0eb3e1a819685c)
The plot thickens!
So cool ;D
I'm guessing neutrinos actually do travel faster than light, or least take a shortcut.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 19, 2011, 01:17:12 AM
So cool ;D
I'm guessing neutrinos actually do travel faster than light, or least take a shortcut.
Well we're not there yet. For a finding to be declared acceptable it has to be ratified by another tean and the kit to do this doesn't come cheap. And the probablility has to be beyond 6 sigma probability deviation and that is going to be hellishly difficault to get to in such a complex experiment.
I must say I am very attracted to the idea that the neutrino is taking a short cut via a 5th dimension. Firstly because it leaves the issue of the speed of light intact in 4 dimentional spacetime. Secondly it indicates there are additional dimensions.
Well, if you consider that mass attracts and that eventually mass is likely to be swallowed up into black holes and that matter limited to the speed of light cannot escape a black hole, and that the beginnings of our universe sounds incredibly like a black hole and that scientists theorise an inflationary period where expansion was faster than the speed of light.
Inside a black hole, matter breaks down, it is also likely that particles break down. When its mass hits such a threshold and matter breaks down enough, smaller than particles contained in light, is in inconceivable that this energy could travel faster than the speed of light and escape this black hole?
Otherwise wouldn't the universe and space be full of black holes?
Quote from: Stevil on November 19, 2011, 06:44:14 PM
Well, if you consider that mass attracts and that eventually mass is likely to be swallowed up into black holes and that matter limited to the speed of light cannot escape a black hole, and that the beginnings of our universe sounds incredibly like a black hole and that scientists theorise an inflationary period where expansion was faster than the speed of light.
Inside a black hole, matter breaks down, it is also likely that particles break down. When its mass hits such a threshold and matter breaks down enough, smaller than particles contained in light, is in inconceivable that this energy could travel faster than the speed of light and escape this black hole?
Otherwise wouldn't the universe and space be full of black holes?
AFAIK the Universe is still very much a baby in terms of a human life span, just a few hours old. So as you posit as matter can go into black holes but not out (excepting Hawking radiation apparently) in due course the universe would end up as a collection of black holes slowly evapourating Hawking radiation. The time it would take to reach this point would be interesting do debate as expansion is not only still happening, it appears to be accellerating, having originally slowed down during the first 4BY of the universes existance. This means that the existing black holes are spreading apart, which could leave islands of matter marooned. What the universe will ultimatly look like is an intersting subject.
Whether or not this has any bearing on the speed of light within black holes is rather a moot point as the event horizon represents a limit to the explanatory value of our current understanding of cosmology and physics, so one ends up in a speculation loop.
Quote from: Tank on November 19, 2011, 11:27:20 AM
I must say I am very attracted to the idea that the neutrino is taking a short cut via a 5th dimension. Firstly because it leaves the issue of the speed of light intact in 4 dimentional spacetime. Secondly it indicates there are additional dimensions.
Thirdly - hyperdrive! 8)
That pesky absolute limit of "c" for space travel is what forces many people to conclude we will never explore other solar systems in person, a saddening notion for all sci fi fans. The sci fi concept of hyperdrive has always seemed the only escape, and hey, if neutrinos can do it, then maybe somehow our ships can too. ;)
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on November 20, 2011, 09:49:29 AM
Quote from: Tank on November 19, 2011, 11:27:20 AM
I must say I am very attracted to the idea that the neutrino is taking a short cut via a 5th dimension. Firstly because it leaves the issue of the speed of light intact in 4 dimentional spacetime. Secondly it indicates there are additional dimensions.
Thirdly - hyperdrive! 8)
That pesky absolute limit of "c" for space travel is what forces many people to conclude we will never explore other solar systems in person, a saddening notion for all sci fi fans. The sci fi concept of hyperdrive has always seemed the only escape, and hey, if neutrinos can do it, then maybe somehow our ships can too. ;)
If you like SiFi then try the Revalation Space series by Alastair Rynolds (http://voxish.tripod.com/). He's an ex-scientist who worked for ESA and he knows his stuff and the Revalation Space series doesn't 'cheat' with FTL space flight. You get all the relativity effects where the space craft travels close to the speed of light so the crews take years of their time to travel between star systems while the star systems age by thousands of years.
Quote from: Tank on November 20, 2011, 10:01:58 AM
If you like SiFi then try the Revalation Space series by Alastair Rynolds (http://voxish.tripod.com/). He's an ex-scientist who worked for ESA and he knows his stuff and the Revalation Space series doesn't 'cheat' with FTL space flight. You get all the relativity effects where the space craft travels close to the speed of light so the crews take years of their time to travel between star systems while the star systems age by thousands of years.
Ooh - and his books are on Kindle! ;)
Thanks Tank! :)
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on November 20, 2011, 10:11:30 AM
Quote from: Tank on November 20, 2011, 10:01:58 AM
If you like SiFi then try the Revalation Space series by Alastair Rynolds (http://voxish.tripod.com/). He's an ex-scientist who worked for ESA and he knows his stuff and the Revalation Space series doesn't 'cheat' with FTL space flight. You get all the relativity effects where the space craft travels close to the speed of light so the crews take years of their time to travel between star systems while the star systems age by thousands of years.
Ooh - and his books are on Kindle! ;)
Thanks Tank! :)
You're welcome. His books are also interesting as he takes the view that theism is in endemic in humanity, which makes for some interesting plot lines particularly when combined with some characters who are artificially augmented.
Quote from: Tank on November 19, 2011, 11:27:20 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 19, 2011, 01:17:12 AM
So cool ;D
I'm guessing neutrinos actually do travel faster than light, or least take a shortcut.
Well we're not there yet. For a finding to be declared acceptable it has to be ratified by another tean and the kit to do this doesn't come cheap. And the probablility has to be beyond 6 sigma probability deviation and that is going to be hellishly difficault to get to in such a complex experiment.
I must say I am very attracted to the idea that the neutrino is taking a short cut via a 5th dimension. Firstly because it leaves the issue of the speed of light intact in 4 dimentional spacetime. Secondly it indicates there are additional dimensions.
I know, I'm just following this with interest. It's not everyday that you get a particle with mass going faster than light...and would be very interesting if it did ;D
And yes, just because neutrinos have been measured to arrive before light a few times, with adjusted experiments, doesn't mean that the light speed law necessarily has been broken.
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on November 20, 2011, 09:49:29 AM
Quote from: Tank on November 19, 2011, 11:27:20 AM
I must say I am very attracted to the idea that the neutrino is taking a short cut via a 5th dimension. Firstly because it leaves the issue of the speed of light intact in 4 dimentional spacetime. Secondly it indicates there are additional dimensions.
Thirdly - hyperdrive! 8)
That pesky absolute limit of "c" for space travel is what forces many people to conclude we will never explore other solar systems in person, a saddening notion for all sci fi fans. The sci fi concept of hyperdrive has always seemed the only escape, and hey, if neutrinos can do it, then maybe somehow our ships can too. ;)
Wormholes ;D
Or hyperdrive, but by twisting the fabric of space-time rather than actually exceeding the speed of light. Could happen...
Faster-than-light neutrino result queried
QuoteSubatomic particles called neutrinos cannot move faster than the speed of light, according to a new report.
...One of the first objections to the experiment to be formally published appeared just five weeks later in the journal Physical Review Letters, co-authored by Nobel prize-winning physicist Sheldon Glashow.
Prof Glashow and his co-author Andrew Cohen argued that particles moving faster than light should emit further particles as they travel - in the process losing energy until they slow down to light-speed.
The Icarus team already had measurements of the spread of energies in neutrinos, detected in their underground instruments at Gran Sasso.
They showed in a paper again on the Arxiv repository that the neutrino energies they measure are consistent with slower-than-light-speed travel...
Keep watching :)
Quote from: Tank on November 22, 2011, 06:22:23 AM
Faster-than-light neutrino result queried
QuoteSubatomic particles called neutrinos cannot move faster than the speed of light, according to a new report.
...One of the first objections to the experiment to be formally published appeared just five weeks later in the journal Physical Review Letters, co-authored by Nobel prize-winning physicist Sheldon Glashow.
Prof Glashow and his co-author Andrew Cohen argued that particles moving faster than light should emit further particles as they travel - in the process losing energy until they slow down to light-speed.
The Icarus team already had measurements of the spread of energies in neutrinos, detected in their underground instruments at Gran Sasso.
They showed in a paper again on the Arxiv repository that the neutrino energies they measure are consistent with slower-than-light-speed travel...
Keep watching :)
:(
New data
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2012/02/faster-than-light-neutrino-result-apparently-a-mistake-due-to-loose-cable.ars
QuoteBut now, ScienceInsider is reporting that there was a good reason the measurements and reality weren't lining up: a loose fiber optic cable was causing one of the atomic clocks used to time the neutrinos' flight to produce spurious results.
This could be one of the biggest Ooops! in history!
Quote from: Tank on February 22, 2012, 08:51:20 PM
New data
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2012/02/faster-than-light-neutrino-result-apparently-a-mistake-due-to-loose-cable.ars
QuoteBut now, ScienceInsider is reporting that there was a good reason the measurements and reality weren't lining up: a loose fiber optic cable was causing one of the atomic clocks used to time the neutrinos' flight to produce spurious results.
This could be one of the biggest Ooops! in history!
Hahahaha bloody quality!
QuoteHello, IT. Have you tried turning it off and on again? Have you made sure it's plugged in?
Well, that's the nice thing about science. You can admit when you are mistaken.
Quote from: Tank on November 20, 2011, 10:01:58 AM
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on November 20, 2011, 09:49:29 AM
Quote from: Tank on November 19, 2011, 11:27:20 AM
I must say I am very attracted to the idea that the neutrino is taking a short cut via a 5th dimension. Firstly because it leaves the issue of the speed of light intact in 4 dimentional spacetime. Secondly it indicates there are additional dimensions.
Thirdly - hyperdrive! 8)
That pesky absolute limit of "c" for space travel is what forces many people to conclude we will never explore other solar systems in person, a saddening notion for all sci fi fans. The sci fi concept of hyperdrive has always seemed the only escape, and hey, if neutrinos can do it, then maybe somehow our ships can too. ;)
If you like SiFi then try the Revalation Space series by Alastair Rynolds (http://voxish.tripod.com/). He's an ex-scientist who worked for ESA and he knows his stuff and the Revalation Space series doesn't 'cheat' with FTL space flight. You get all the relativity effects where the space craft travels close to the speed of light so the crews take years of their time to travel between star systems while the star systems age by thousands of years.
Yeah I picked up one of his books (on kindle) after your open recommendation a while ago - House of Suns. Stunning, and just my kind of SF (though the dialogue between the 6million y/o characters I found a little... er... immature). Anyway, I started Revelation Space last week to get some more of the same good fix. I LOVE the far-reaching and 'outside of the human scale' aspect of his work.
It makes previously well considered genre experts (Clarke, Bova, Lee) seem very spacially and psychologically confined.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on February 23, 2012, 12:59:00 AM
Well, that's the nice thing about science. You can admit when you are mistaken.
This. Science is a field of study that's very open to correction, and I love that about it. :) And while this may have been a huge 'Oooops!', they still learned something valuable: before publishing research, dot your i's, cross your t's, check for human error and any possible technology failures. :) It's a step that could so easily be overlooked in other research for, say, cancer or for AIDS.... so it's always good to get a reminder, so it's less likely to happen again.
I seem to remember that they published their results with the caveat that they didn't quite believe it themselves, so they were hoping that someone could look through their data and find where they went wrong. My favorite line about this whole thing though:
CERN's director of research, Sergio Bertolucci, said of the neutrino findings, "I have difficulty to believe it, because nothing in Italy arrives ahead of time."
;D
Quote from: Tank on September 23, 2011, 11:28:55 AM
Brian Cox on Cern's baffling light-speed find (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15034852)
QuotePuzzling results from Cern, home of the Large Hadron Collider, have confounded physicists - because it seems subatomic particles have beaten the speed of light.
Neutrinos sent through the ground from Cern toward the Gran Sasso laboratory 732km away in Italy seemed to show up a tiny fraction of a second early.
Something appears to be moving faster than the speed of light.
The light-speed limit only applies to particles that have mass. The Lorentz equation describes how mass increases as objects approach the speed of light. Accordingly, at light speed anything having mass would become infinitely massive, and infinities don't work in physics, but if a particle starts with zero mass its mass remains zero. In theory neutrinos have mass, but it's never been proven. This could just mean that that assumption is wrong. Of course, it could also be an error in the calculation. Neutrinos are classified as WIMPs (weakly interacting massive particles). Maybe they exist primarily in one of the theoretical extra dimensions. There could be space-time effects there that we can't comprehend.
This is a good video, I like Professor Ed Copeland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cezltcn9Mv0
Good find.
Icarus Experiment Measures Neutrino Speed: Even Neutrinos Are Not Faster Than Light (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120316204743.htm)
QuoteScienceDaily (Mar. 16, 2012) — The ICARUS experiment at the Italian Gran Sasso laboratory has reported a new measurement of the time of flight of neutrinos from CERN to Gran Sasso. The ICARUS measurement, using last year's short pulsed beam from CERN, indicates that the neutrinos do not exceed the speed of light on their journey between the two laboratories. This is at odds with the initial measurement reported by OPERA last September.
"The evidence is beginning to point towards the OPERA result being an artefact of the measurement," said CERN Research Director Sergio Bertolucci, "but it's important to be rigorous, and the Gran Sasso experiments, BOREXINO, ICARUS, LVD and OPERA will be making new measurements with pulsed beams from CERN in May to give us the final verdict. In addition, cross-checks are underway at Gran Sasso to compare the timings of cosmic ray particles between the two experiments, OPERA and LVD. Whatever the result, the OPERA experiment has behaved with perfect scientific integrity in opening their measurement to broad scrutiny, and inviting independent measurements. This is how science works."
The Scientific Method, the only way to discover what's really going on.
Quote from: Tank on March 17, 2012, 10:19:01 AM
Icarus Experiment Measures Neutrino Speed: Even Neutrinos Are Not Faster Than Light (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120316204743.htm)
QuoteScienceDaily (Mar. 16, 2012) — The ICARUS experiment at the Italian Gran Sasso laboratory has reported a new measurement of the time of flight of neutrinos from CERN to Gran Sasso. The ICARUS measurement, using last year's short pulsed beam from CERN, indicates that the neutrinos do not exceed the speed of light on their journey between the two laboratories. This is at odds with the initial measurement reported by OPERA last September.
"The evidence is beginning to point towards the OPERA result being an artefact of the measurement," said CERN Research Director Sergio Bertolucci, "but it's important to be rigorous, and the Gran Sasso experiments, BOREXINO, ICARUS, LVD and OPERA will be making new measurements with pulsed beams from CERN in May to give us the final verdict. In addition, cross-checks are underway at Gran Sasso to compare the timings of cosmic ray particles between the two experiments, OPERA and LVD. Whatever the result, the OPERA experiment has behaved with perfect scientific integrity in opening their measurement to broad scrutiny, and inviting independent measurements. This is how science works."
The Scientific Method, the only way to discover what's really going on.
It's a bit of a pity actually, we could've witnessed one of those huge revolutionary turnovers, such as when Darwin came into the biological scenario...
:P
I agree. It would have been much more interesting if neutrinos did travel faster than light in a vacuum.
Another link: http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2012/03/another-nail-in-the-coffin-for.html (http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2012/03/another-nail-in-the-coffin-for.html)
They're going to re-run the tests to put the final nail in the coffin.
Neutrino 'faster than light' scientist resigns (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17560379)
QuoteThe head of an experiment that appeared to show subatomic particles travelling faster than the speed of light has resigned from his post.
Prof Antonio Ereditato oversaw results that appeared to challenge Einstein's theory that nothing could travel faster than the speed of light.
Reports said some members of his group, called Opera, had wanted him to resign...
Quote from: Tank on March 30, 2012, 08:21:58 PM
Neutrino 'faster than light' scientist resigns (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17560379)
QuoteThe head of an experiment that appeared to show subatomic particles travelling faster than the speed of light has resigned from his post.
Prof Antonio Ereditato oversaw results that appeared to challenge Einstein's theory that nothing could travel faster than the speed of light.
Reports said some members of his group, called Opera, had wanted him to resign...
That's too bad. If it was an honest mistake and they realized what the problem was and why it happened, you'd think realizing their problem would maybe be valuable to future/other scientists so they wouldn't make the same mistake. I realize the guy's probably embarassed, but scientists are human. Even if his group members were ticked off at him, eh, shake it off and try and move on. Nothing to resign over, I wouldn't think... it's not like it would have ended their careers had he stayed.
Quote from: Amicale on March 30, 2012, 11:51:22 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 30, 2012, 08:21:58 PM
Neutrino 'faster than light' scientist resigns (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17560379)
QuoteThe head of an experiment that appeared to show subatomic particles travelling faster than the speed of light has resigned from his post.
Prof Antonio Ereditato oversaw results that appeared to challenge Einstein's theory that nothing could travel faster than the speed of light.
Reports said some members of his group, called Opera, had wanted him to resign...
That's too bad. If it was an honest mistake and they realized what the problem was and why it happened, you'd think realizing their problem would maybe be valuable to future/other scientists so they wouldn't make the same mistake. I realize the guy's probably embarassed, but scientists are human. Even if his group members were ticked off at him, eh, shake it off and try and move on. Nothing to resign over, I wouldn't think... it's not like it would have ended their careers had he stayed.
Quite right. Especially as, from the outset, they had questioned their own results and invited scrutiny of their methodology.
As Tank mentioned in an earlier post, this is science at its best, disproven or not.
Quote from: Amicale on March 30, 2012, 11:51:22 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 30, 2012, 08:21:58 PM
Neutrino 'faster than light' scientist resigns (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17560379)
QuoteThe head of an experiment that appeared to show subatomic particles travelling faster than the speed of light has resigned from his post.
Prof Antonio Ereditato oversaw results that appeared to challenge Einstein's theory that nothing could travel faster than the speed of light.
Reports said some members of his group, called Opera, had wanted him to resign...
That's too bad. If it was an honest mistake and they realized what the problem was and why it happened, you'd think realizing their problem would maybe be valuable to future/other scientists so they wouldn't make the same mistake. I realize the guy's probably embarassed, but scientists are human. Even if his group members were ticked off at him, eh, shake it off and try and move on. Nothing to resign over, I wouldn't think... it's not like it would have ended their careers had he stayed.
I agree, poor guy if he felt he had to resign over this. It's not like he commited a crime or anything.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 31, 2012, 01:33:45 AM
Quote from: Amicale on March 30, 2012, 11:51:22 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 30, 2012, 08:21:58 PM
Neutrino 'faster than light' scientist resigns (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17560379)
QuoteThe head of an experiment that appeared to show subatomic particles travelling faster than the speed of light has resigned from his post.
Prof Antonio Ereditato oversaw results that appeared to challenge Einstein's theory that nothing could travel faster than the speed of light.
Reports said some members of his group, called Opera, had wanted him to resign...
That's too bad. If it was an honest mistake and they realized what the problem was and why it happened, you'd think realizing their problem would maybe be valuable to future/other scientists so they wouldn't make the same mistake. I realize the guy's probably embarassed, but scientists are human. Even if his group members were ticked off at him, eh, shake it off and try and move on. Nothing to resign over, I wouldn't think... it's not like it would have ended their careers had he stayed.
I agree, poor guy if he felt he had to resign over this. It's not like he commited a crime or anything.
Exactly. I wish he'd taken Mr. Edison's advice:
"After we had conducted thousands of experiments on a certain project without solving the problem, one of my associates, after we had conducted the crowning experiment and it had proved a failure, expressed discouragement and disgust over our having failed to find out anything. I cheerily assured him that we had learned something. For we had learned for a certainty that the thing couldn't be done that way, and that we would have to try some other way." - Thomas Edison, January 1921, American Magazine
Quote from: Tank on September 23, 2011, 11:28:55 AM
Something appears to be moving faster than the speed of light.
John Petrucci's fingers?
Quote from: squidfetish on March 31, 2012, 03:51:02 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 23, 2011, 11:28:55 AM
Something appears to be moving faster than the speed of light.
John Petrucci's fingers?
I wouldn't have gotten this joke until last year. Wish it hadn't taken me so long to discover Dream Theater :)
My impression is that this was about more than an inaccurate experiment. It sounded like there was discontent with him for other reasons. Who knows why, maybe management style?
Quote from: Firebird on March 31, 2012, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: squidfetish on March 31, 2012, 03:51:02 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 23, 2011, 11:28:55 AM
Something appears to be moving faster than the speed of light.
John Petrucci's fingers?
I wouldn't have gotten this joke until last year. Wish it hadn't taken me so long to discover Dream Theater :)
My impression is that this was about more than an inaccurate experiment. It sounded like there was discontent with him for other reasons. Who knows why, maybe management style?
It does look like he's been scapegoated for some reason.
If anyones still interested.
2012 Isaac Asimov Memorial Debate: Faster Than the Speed of Light
QuoteOn Tuesday, March 20, 2012, over 5,000 people tuned in to the live stream of the 2012 Isaac Asimov Memorial Debate from the LeFrak Theater at the American Museum of Natural History.
Hosted by Hayden Planetarium Director Neil deGrasse Tyson, this year's debate pitted some of the experimentalists who claimed to have discovered faster-than-light neutrinos against their strongest critics, as well as other teams who are racing to test Albert Einstein's Theory of Relativity with unprecedented precision.
2012 Isaac Asimov Memorial Debate: Faster Than the Speed of Light (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qlLW60wOjo&feature=plcp&context=C47eb2f3VDvjVQa1PpcFN0T-O0ltaADHbJVbmSZfBHK9XnZO_xAuM=)
^^^ I'll put aside a couple of hours to watch that later. Thanks for the link.
Einstein was right, neutrino researchers admit (http://phys.org/news/2012-06-einstein-neutrino.html)
QuoteResearchers working at the European Centre for Nuclear Research (CERN) caused a storm last year when they published experimental results showing that neutrinos could out-pace light by some six kilometres (3.7 miles) per second.
Researchers working at the European Centre for Nuclear Research (CERN) caused a storm last year when they published experimental results showing that neutrinos could out-pace light by some six kilometres (3.7 miles) per second.
The findings threatened to upend modern physics and smash a hole in Albert Einstein's 1905 theory of special relativity, which described the velocity of light as the maximum speed in the cosmos.
But CERN now says that the earlier results were wrong and faulty kit was to blame.
"Although this result isn't as exciting as some would have liked, it is what we all expected deep down," said the centre's research director Sergio Bertolucci.
"The story captured the public imagination, and has given people the opportunity to see the scientific method in action.
"An unexpected result was put up for scrutiny, thoroughly investigated and resolved in part thanks to collaboration between normally competing experiments. That's how science moves forward."
The neutrinos were timed on the journey from CERN's giant underground lab near Geneva to the Gran Sasso Laboratory in Italy, after travelling 732 kilometres (454 miles) through the Earth's crust.
To do the trip, the neutrinos should have taken 0.0024 seconds. Instead, the particles were recorded as hitting the detectors in Italy 0.00000006 seconds sooner than expected, the preliminary experiment had shown.
Researchers updated the science community on Friday at the International Conference on Neutrino Physics and Astrophysics, being held in Japan's ancient capital of Kyoto.
"The previous data taken up to 2011 with the neutrino beam from CERN to Gran Sasso were revised taking into account understood instrumental effects," the team said.
Good science done well is self correcting. So while it would have been a fantastic outcome to find that the speed of light is not a universal speed limit the fact that it has been discovered that the instrumentalist was at fault demonstrates the fundamental accuracy of Einstein's original intuition.
So true. Its a pity that the original data was incorrect. The possibilities would have been interesting to say the least.