the four qualifications Christians use to claim Jesus is the son of God are the following.
1) born of a virgin
2) performed miracles
3) spoke a message of charity and compassion
4) rose from the grave
i would like to address each of these in turn.
1) born of a virgin. let's say for the sake of argument it's true. Jesus was conceived without his parents having sex.
you've heard of artificial insemination right? do you believe people born by such methods are also the son of God?
now i can already hear the complaints "but they didn't have this technology back then!" my return question is: how do you know?
maybe there were only a very select few who had such knowledge, but never recorded it. (for example there is some evidence to suggest the Greeks had knowledge of combustion engines.) or perhaps it was extra-terrestrial interference. whatever the case may be, having a child without sex does not make the child godly.
2) performed miracles. again let's say for the sake of argument its true. Jesus performed miracles. David Copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear. does that make David Copperfield godly?
3) spoke a message of charity and compassion. again let's say for the sake of argument its true. Mother Teresa also lead an exemplary life of charity and compassion. do you believe she is divine?
4) rose from the grave. again let's say for the sake of argument its true. lots of people have near death experiences, and there are many ghost stories of people living after death. surely you don't believe all these people are god?
even all taken together, it doesn't really make sense.
if mother Teresa was a test tube baby, made the statue of liberty disappear, did all her good works, and had a near death experience, would you then believe?
I think it's simpler than that: Christians believe Jesus is the son of God because the bible says so. The bible is right because it's the word of God. The bible is the word of God because it says it's the word of God.
round an' round she goes!
Mother Theresa was an evil witch. She maltreated the patient in her hospitals, letting them suffer a lot, so that they would come "closer" to God.
For the rest, I fully agree with DetermindedJuliet.
Oh, fasting? ^ yikes.
I call bullshit on that too.
Anyway, don't know jesus, because I wasnt born yet. I honestly think there wasnt even a REAL jesus. He's a made up fairy tale character, like Sonic the hedgehog.
I have to disagree on that, SD. I can't see why there should not have been a wandering preacher of that name (Yesua - a common enough name) who did and said some of the things now attributed to him. Such wandering preachers were two a penny in that place and time. Most of the message about him being god's son and a saviour will have been added in later, likewise the miracle stories.
To me, that seems more probable than the character having been invented out of thin air.
Quote from: phillip1882 on September 22, 2011, 09:44:45 PM
the four qualifications Christians use to claim Jesus is the son of God are the following.
1) born of a virgin
2) performed miracles
3) spoke a message of charity and compassion
4) rose from the grave
Like SD, personally I don't think Jesus ever lived and that the gospels are a work of mythology. This is how I look at the above four 'qualifications' above;
1 – Jesus was born of a virgin because many of the sons of Zeus in Greek mythology were born of virgins.
2 – The miracles are allegorical, making a blind man see, raising the dead, they refer to converting non-believers to believers. The miracles involving fish have been explained as isopsephia (magical number science) and are to do with the vesica piscis symbol. A lot of these miracles were also performed by earlier religious figures such as Pythagorus, Dionysos and Asclepius.
3 – Jesus teachings of charity and compassion are pure Greek philosophy. He almost quotes Plato and other philosophers verbatim at points.
4 – The resurrection is allegorical, there were other resurrected gods and saviours before Jesus. Jesus' resurrection represents the new life on offer to the believer and the resurrection of believers at the final judgement
Quote from: phillip1882 on September 22, 2011, 09:44:45 PM
the four qualifications Christians use to claim Jesus is the son of God are the following.
1) born of a virgin
2) performed miracles
3) spoke a message of charity and compassion
4) rose from the grave
First of all, people will believe whatever they wish about Jesus. But the qualifications for Jesus as the Son of God is set down in several creeds. Numbers two and three are not in the creeds.
Quotei would like to address each of these in turn.
1) born of a virgin. let's say for the sake of argument it's true. Jesus was conceived without his parents having sex.
you've heard of artificial insemination right? do you believe people born by such methods are also the son of God?
now i can already hear the complaints "but they didn't have this technology back then!" my return question is: how do you know?
maybe there were only a very select few who had such knowledge, but never recorded it. (for example there is some evidence to suggest the Greeks had knowledge of combustion engines.) or perhaps it was extra-terrestrial interference. whatever the case may be, having a child without sex does not make the child godly.
Artificial insemination was unheard of in ancient times. It would have been religiously anathema to the Jews. It is not inconceivable to think a desperate couple without children might resort to the man catching semen in a piece of goat intestine attached to a reed and blowing it into his wife, but it would not have been a gift of/from God.
Quote2) performed miracles. again let's say for the sake of argument its true. Jesus performed miracles. David Copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear. does that make David Copperfield godly?
Copperfield didn't exorcise demons from people and (by request) put them into a herd of pigs. Houdini didn't cure blind people. Doug Henning didn't make the lame walk. Penn and Teller haven't raised the dead. Jesus regularly performed acts against the laws of nature; what more would you want from the son of god? The only miracles that are part of the creeds are the virgin birth and the resurrection.
Quote3) spoke a message of charity and compassion. again let's say for the sake of argument its true. Mother Teresa also lead an exemplary life of charity and compassion. do you believe she is divine?
Actually, he did not. His charity and compassion were side vehicles for gaining salvation, a most self-centered quality.
Apparently you haven't learned about Mother Teresa. She was everything but charitable and compassionate.
Quote4) rose from the grave. again let's say for the sake of argument its true. lots of people have near death experiences, and there are many ghost stories of people living after death. surely you don't believe all these people are god?
This is part of number two and part of the creeds. NDE's are not resurrections. People who claims an NDE experience have not risen from a grave after 3 days.
Quoteeven all taken together, it doesn't really make sense.
Taken singly or together, they make no sense.
Quoteif mother Teresa was a test tube baby, made the statue of liberty disappear, did all her good works, and had a near death experience, would you then believe?
When the laws of physics/nature decide that this is possible, then I submit that every one of us will not know what to believe. Think about it.
Oh, oh! Actually my new sexy Japanese sempai just informed me why people thought pigs were evil. Apparently it is because pig , if not cleaned properly , will really make you sick . And they didn't have proper cleaning tools, so people were dropping dead from eating pigs.
Hece pigs are evil. Mystery solved :o
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 23, 2011, 05:36:15 PM
Oh, oh! Actually my new sexy Japanese sempai just informed me why people thought pigs were evil. Apparently it is because pig , if not cleaned properly , will really make you sick . And they didn't have proper cleaning tools, so people were dropping dead from eating pigs.
Hece pigs are evil. Mystery solved :o
Pigs are the vector of the human intestinal tape worm. Without proper sanitation pigs will eat human excrement. If humans eat infected under-cooked/raw pork then the tape worm eggs in the pork can infect the human brain, leading to a nasty death.
Yes! And, ewww ;__;
.... Seriously glad I dont eat meat.
Quote from: phillip1882 on September 22, 2011, 09:44:45 PM
1) born of a virgin. let's say for the sake of argument it's true. Jesus was conceived without his parents having sex.
you've heard of artificial insemination right? do you believe people born by such methods are also the son of God?
now i can already hear the complaints "but they didn't have this technology back then!" my return question is: how do you know?
maybe there were only a very select few who had such knowledge, but never recorded it. (for example there is some evidence to suggest the Greeks had knowledge of combustion engines.) or perhaps it was extra-terrestrial interference. whatever the case may be, having a child without sex does not make the child godly.
This. "How do you know? Where you there?" Is a good question, but creationists rarely ask themsleves... ::)
Anything goes when it comes to wild claims with that sort of cop-out.
Quote from: phillip1882 on September 22, 2011, 09:44:45 PM
the four qualifications Christians use to claim Jesus is the son of God are the following.
1) born of a virgin
2) performed miracles
3) spoke a message of charity and compassion
4) rose from the grave
i would like to address each of these in turn.
1) born of a virgin. let's say for the sake of argument it's true. Jesus was conceived without his parents having sex.
you've heard of artificial insemination right? do you believe people born by such methods are also the son of God?
now i can already hear the complaints "but they didn't have this technology back then!" my return question is: how do you know?
maybe there were only a very select few who had such knowledge, but never recorded it. (for example there is some evidence to suggest the Greeks had knowledge of combustion engines.) or perhaps it was extra-terrestrial interference. whatever the case may be, having a child without sex does not make the child godly.
2) performed miracles. again let's say for the sake of argument its true. Jesus performed miracles. David Copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear. does that make David Copperfield godly?
3) spoke a message of charity and compassion. again let's say for the sake of argument its true. Mother Teresa also lead an exemplary life of charity and compassion. do you believe she is divine?
4) rose from the grave. again let's say for the sake of argument its true. lots of people have near death experiences, and there are many ghost stories of people living after death. surely you don't believe all these people are god?
even all taken together, it doesn't really make sense.
if mother Teresa was a test tube baby, made the statue of liberty disappear, did all her good works, and had a near death experience, would you then believe?
Those are all items we know. This is not my reason for belief. I would need much more room than this post, but physics is yet another reason. http://superiored.blogspot.com/2011/07/physics-of-god-perspective-on-reality_14.html (http://superiored.blogspot.com/2011/07/physics-of-god-perspective-on-reality_14.html) If you hold a bronze age understanding of the universe, I suppose you may miss the obvious. Consult the link and you can see another view.
I also see that the world is focused on the Middle East right now. Matthew 24 stated the conditions that would mark the times. Spot on. How can this be an accident? Too much foreknowledge in the Bible for statistics.
DNA is yet another reason. It is a digital code universal to all life. Digital. Not analog. Digital. Logic. Purpose. Design. Complexity at the nano scale of engineering.
This is my short list. Go back now and then consider this: Your list is looking much more likely to have occurred when viewed by the totality of evidence.
Suffering is yet another place to look. We view suffering as bad, but is it? If we take from life, suffering follows. We do drugs and we suffer the health results. Suffering from this direction has a cause. If we give to life, we reap reward. Suffer a car payment and drive to work instead of ride the bike. The extra time will give you more free time. Drive the car too much and the reward keeps you off the bike. Health fades. Ride the bike and suffer the exercise and health returns. All of life is cause and effect from the design in nature. Judgment is not God acting in time. It is God from the moment of creation designing it this way.
Is there a loophole in suffering? To me, there are only three choices. Either we suffer our own actions, the actions of others or the providence of God. Chance does not figure in as it is the providence of God. God acts with intent. We act with intention. There is a difference there of design. God's design will always bring about the best results over time.
Christ died on a cross. Why? Two negatives make a positive with multiplication. We multiply when debt is owed. Jesus died on a cross (negative). We are sinners and create debt which leads to suffering for mankind (negative debt). Multiply the two and we march back form negative to positive as debt is transferred. This answers the why of the cross. Possible that it happened? yes
I could keep going, but my distal phalanges are tired.
I don't know why your fingers should be getting tired when it looks like you are copy and pasting large portions of your posts.
Quote from: SuperiorEdI also see that the world is focused on the Middle East right now. Matthew 24 stated the conditions that would mark the times. Spot on. How can this be an accident? Too much foreknowledge in the Bible for statistics.
Quote from: SuperiorEdIf you hold a bronze age understanding of the universe, I suppose you may miss the obvious.
I suppose you missed the obvious. The author of gMatt held a bronze age view and was speaking of his time.
The rest of your post is nothing more than reaching for fallacious evidence...much like all your posts.
Quote from: SuperiorEd on September 26, 2011, 03:51:55 AM
Christ died on a cross. Why?
Two negatives make a positive with multiplication. We multiply when debt is owed. Jesus died on a cross (negative). We are sinners and create debt which leads to suffering for mankind (negative debt). Multiply the two and we march back form negative to positive as debt is transferred. This answers the why of the cross. Possible that it happened? yes
I could keep going, but my distal phalanges are tired.
I don't understand the death and resurrection stance of Christians.
The above is poorly written and does not address any of the issues needed to understand this concept.
The main statement
"Christ died on a cross. Why?"This is poorly written. I would expect more from the author of a book.
"Why?" is not a sentence.
Perhaps a more fitting sentence is
"Why did Jesus die on a cross?"But then your explanation does not go on to explain the cross. In this way your question remains unanswered. It was your own question after all, surely you have an answer.
I presume the cross was because that was what the Romans used as a method to publicly make an example of dissenters, presumably as a deterrent for other would be dissenters.
Answer: Jesus death was as a result of this practice which was brought on due to his acts of dissent as perceived by the governing Roman authority.But, I feel your original question was poorly written, the method of Jesus' death was actually unimportant to the "lesson" you were intending to enlighten us with. Maybe your sentence should have been
"Why did Jesus die?" but of course all humans' die. Jesus died because he was human.
His actual cause of death was probably either asphyxiation or desanguination. But again I don't feel you are interested in the actual cause of death. Possibly you are more interested in explaining a purpose behind Jesus death, so let's again rephrase the sentence
"For what purpose was Jesus' premature death". For the Jewish people the purpose was to be rid of someone who was preaching a basterdised version of Judasim, a person whom was making a mockery of sacred events being performed by Jews during a holy time of the year. For the Romans it was in order to keep the peace and uphold the law. When talking of purpose we need a point of reference as purpose is relative.
So to rephrase
"What did Jesus' premature death mean to humanity?"But to humanity, on the whole, Jesus death was of little to no importance. Most of humanity did not know who Jesus was at the time. Even now, after two thousand years of promoting the life and times of Jesus, most of humanity do not put any significance onto the death of Jesus. It is possible that most of humanity don't even believe that Jesus existed.
So, possibly the sentence should be
"What did Jesus' premature death mean to God?"To understand what Jesus meant to God, it would be best to ask God, but of course God does not answer humans questions. Therefore we need to derive the answer somehow. What communications do we have from God? Well, the Christians believe the bible is the word of God, but the Jews believe the Torah is the word of God, but the Muslims believe the Quran is the word of God, but the Hindus believe...
So which god are we talking about? Maybe we need to qualify the original sentence to avoid confusion?
Since the author of the post is a Christian, lets assume we are talking about the Christian god.
The sentence could then be
"What did Jesus' premature death mean to the Christian god?"We still have the problem of defining the relationship between the Christian god and Jesus. The bible tells us that Jesus was God's son. But it also tells us that Jesus is God. The bible also tells us that God is eternal and unchanging and that Jesus lives on despite his death. Jesus has the ability to return back to earth as is depicted in the resurrection and the prophecy of the second coming of Jesus. Hence it seems that Jesus death is of little to no importance to the Christian god.
Maybe we simply need to focus on the Christians and their beliefs. Maybe the sentence should be
"What did Jesus' premature death mean to the Christians?". But of course there were no Christians at the time. Jesus might well have had twelve apostles a mother, maybe a step father, a whore and maybe a few others but could they really have been considered to be Christians? Mary and Joseph were most likely Jewish. So when we are talking about the meaning or purpose of Jesus' death really we are talking about the Christian's believe of this alleged event.
"What do Christians believe with regards to the purpose driving Jesus' premature death?"Christians believe that Jesus died to atone for humanities sins. They believe this because it says so in the Bible.
This is fine and dandy, Christians can believe what they want. But the author of this post is not talking to Christians, he is trying to convey a message to a group of non Christians, to a group of Atheists who do not believe in the Christian god, Jesus or the "Truth" of the bible.
For Atheists, we don't operate in an epistemology of biblical truth or metaphysical logic. We are very analytical and want to know the detail of how something works. We do not buy into the emotional wants of a loving eternal creator, forgiving us and giving up his son to atone for our flawed ways.
So if the author of the post is interested in explaining to a group of atheists
"What is the purpose pertaining to the premature death of Jesus and how does this relate to humanity?" then the he need to address the following:
- What is the debt that Jesus death was to repay?
- How does this debt relate to an Atheist living 2000+ years after the repayment event?
- Who accepts the debt repayment?
- Why was the debt owing to this entity?
- How is this entity advantaged by this repayment event, what did this entity gain?
- What is the important factor of Jesus death, that it was premature? that it was torturous? that it was public, that the Roman's did it?
- How is Jesus' death any different to the death of any other person?
- What is so special about Jesus death, given that he is believed to still be around and coming back?
- How does an Atheist (who does not believe in the "truth" of the bible) know that this debt existed and that it has been repaid
- If the second coming of Jesus happens should we be motivated to cause a premature death of this second coming, would this mean that god owes us?
BTW by saying "distal phalanges" instead of "fingers", is this to give us the illusion that you are smart?
Quote from: Tank on September 23, 2011, 05:47:12 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 23, 2011, 05:36:15 PM
Oh, oh! Actually my new sexy Japanese sempai just informed me why people thought pigs were evil. Apparently it is because pig , if not cleaned properly , will really make you sick . And they didn't have proper cleaning tools, so people were dropping dead from eating pigs.
Hece pigs are evil. Mystery solved :o
Pigs are the vector of the human intestinal tape worm. Without proper sanitation pigs will eat human excrement. If humans eat infected under-cooked/raw pork then the tape worm eggs in the pork can infect the human brain, leading to a nasty death.
So Woody Allen was right, the proscription against pork was basically just a suggestion not to eat it in certain restaurants?
I suppose he was.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 02, 2011, 02:07:35 AM
Quote from: Tank on September 23, 2011, 05:47:12 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 23, 2011, 05:36:15 PM
Oh, oh! Actually my new sexy Japanese sempai just informed me why people thought pigs were evil. Apparently it is because pig , if not cleaned properly , will really make you sick . And they didn't have proper cleaning tools, so people were dropping dead from eating pigs.
Hece pigs are evil. Mystery solved :o
Pigs are the vector of the human intestinal tape worm. Without proper sanitation pigs will eat human excrement. If humans eat infected under-cooked/raw pork then the tape worm eggs in the pork can infect the human brain, leading to a nasty death.
So Woody Allen was right, the proscription against pork was basically just a suggestion not to eat it in certain restaurants?
I'm not aware of that Woody Allen 'ism, but I would guess you're right :D
I still have yet to see any physics lessons from the guy who says his love for physics is why he believes in god. Digital... analog... I mean now we're talking about how a TV signal can compare to biochemistry? That's not physics.
I think it's because physics can make the universe seem like clockwork for some, and therefore predictable. The religious like predictability...but I'm just speculating here.
As for digital and analog, of you're talking about DNA, it's digital because it has defined units smaller units (genes) which interact to make increasingly larger units, it's the biological lingo.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on September 23, 2011, 12:43:22 AM
I think it's simpler than that: Christians believe Jesus is the son of God because the bible says so. The bible is right because it's the word of God. The bible is the word of God because it says it's the word of God.
round an' round she goes!
As spectacular as that line of reasoning appears, I'm sure not all Christians have used it. ;)
Quote from: SuperiorEd on September 26, 2011, 03:51:55 AM
Christ died on a cross. Why? Two negatives make a positive with multiplication. We multiply when debt is owed. Jesus died on a cross (negative). We are sinners and create debt which leads to suffering for mankind (negative debt). Multiply the two and we march back form negative to positive as debt is transferred. This answers the why of the cross. Possible that it happened? yes
Also possible that it happened - no.
The two Greek words that are used in the Bible for the location of Jesus' suffering are 'stauros' which translates as 'stake' or 'pole' and 'xylon' that translates as 'tree'. The idea of Jesus on the four pointed cross we have today is possibly a later second century accretion to the story. Nowhere in the Bible does it inherently suggest a four pointed cross.
There's also an early Christian tradition that Jesus was hung from / crucified on the same tree that Adam and Eve ate the fruit from. It seems to me that the central Christian doctrine is that the suffering of Jesus redeemed the original fall of Adam and Eve. I think it makes perfect mythological sense that the redemption of humanity should have happened at exactly the same location as the fall, at the same mythological tree.
Quote from: Stevil on October 02, 2011, 12:18:07 AM
Quote from: SuperiorEd on September 26, 2011, 03:51:55 AM
Christ died on a cross. Why?
Two negatives make a positive with multiplication. We multiply when debt is owed. Jesus died on a cross (negative). We are sinners and create debt which leads to suffering for mankind (negative debt). Multiply the two and we march back form negative to positive as debt is transferred. This answers the why of the cross. Possible that it happened? yes
I could keep going, but my distal phalanges are tired.
I don't understand the death and resurrection stance of Christians.
...
Excellent post,
Stevil. It will be interesting to see how
SuperiorEd will reply, if he returns from his suspension.
Personally, I would also like to see how he explains and justifies the second sentence: "We multiply when debt is owed." This is an assertion for which no basis is given, and which seems to be placed in the argument merely to justify subsequent rhetorical flim-flammery about "march[ing] back from negative to positive."
Quote from: TooFewLionsThere's also an early Christian tradition that Jesus was hung from / crucified on the same tree that Adam and Eve ate the fruit from. It seems to me that the central Christian doctrine is that the suffering of Jesus redeemed the original fall of Adam and Eve. I think it makes perfect mythological sense that the redemption of humanity should have happened at exactly the same location as the fall, at the same mythological tree.
IIRC Jesus had to carry his cross through the streets. I can't see how that fits with the Adam & Eve tree theory.
Quote from: OldGit on October 07, 2011, 09:45:59 AM
Quote from: TooFewLionsThere's also an early Christian tradition that Jesus was hung from / crucified on the same tree that Adam and Eve ate the fruit from. It seems to me that the central Christian doctrine is that the suffering of Jesus redeemed the original fall of Adam and Eve. I think it makes perfect mythological sense that the redemption of humanity should have happened at exactly the same location as the fall, at the same mythological tree.
IIRC Jesus had to carry his cross through the streets. I can't see how that fits with the Adam & Eve tree theory.
I think it was Simon of Cyrene who carried the cross in three of the gospels. But it still doesn't have to have been a cross as we'd view it today, going on what the original Greek in the NT says. Personally, as I think it's all just a myth anyway, I'm not sure the part about someone carrying the cross is particularly important. It's the crucifixion / hanging from a tree bit that matters!
Interestingly, some early Gnostic Christians didn't believe that Jesus was crucified at all, but that he snuck off and the Jews / Romans crucified Simon instead, while Jesus just watched on laughing!
Quote from: Too Few Lions
Interestingly, some early Gnostic Christians didn't believe that Jesus was crucified at all, but that he snuck off and the Jews / Romans crucified Simon instead, while Jesus just watched on laughing!
Not just snuck off, but escorted away. There is a belief that Jesus was not yet dead by the crucifixion and put into a tomb to heal him, basically a hideout. He would have obviously been suffering from shock, therefore the wrappings to keep him warm. By the oils he was treated with, one would have had an opium base to keep him quiet (search for ancient Middle East medicinal plants and how some of the same were used or could have been used to anoint the dead) and the others to help the healing. It would explain the empty tomb and the 40-odd days before anyone sees him again - to regain his strength. Everything else (walking through a door, zombies walking the streets, Jesus flying up to Heaven in a cloud for examples) is hyperbole and pious fraud.
*edited to add*...My thoughts on Jr. can be found in the
Is Christianity moral or immoral? Parts One and Two threads.