"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus
Thanks. This is now officially the most quoted quote on this forum now. Definitely needed it's own thread.
And what's with the ridiculous polls?
Quote from: Ihateyoumike on September 08, 2011, 06:17:01 AM
And what's with the ridiculous polls?
I don't know.
And I don't know why more sensible questions aren't asked, like should a modern Epicurean trim the fat from his pork chop, or eat it and accept the consequences?
Why don't you answer your own poll? ::) This is the second time you've asked the same question unrelated to your Op's topic, and it's getting a bit annoying.
Asmo seemed to be suggesting that it may be just a matter of clicking the wrong button, "Post new poll" instead of "New Topic"
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaYPdv.jpg&hash=86ff32c6b9690f163d99ca8c5908386e38519069)
Not everyone is quite as masterful at forum use as many here :P
free-being...please stop creating polls for no reason. If you want to just start a new topic click on the appropriate button instead of the one that says poll
Quote from: Whitney on September 08, 2011, 03:10:49 PM
free-being...please stop creating polls for no reason. If you want to just start a new topic click on the appropriate button instead of the one that says poll
And in the mean time a moderator can just remove the poll.
Quote from: Tank on September 08, 2011, 03:14:25 PM
Quote from: Whitney on September 08, 2011, 03:10:49 PM
free-being...please stop creating polls for no reason. If you want to just start a new topic click on the appropriate button instead of the one that says poll
And in the mean time a moderator can just remove the poll.
Thanks...i couldn't find that button which is why I locked it.
Quote from: Free-Being on September 08, 2011, 06:14:46 AM
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus
If
good exists, then
evil must exist to define what
good is and is not. To prevent one is to do away with the other and thus render one or the other nothing. God is called God because it is He that defines
good and therefore
evil; being all powerful can turn
evil to
good ( have
good come from
evil in the sense of the biblical character of Joseph )
If God is God and God is
Good, then evil cannot be destroyed/prevented. To remove the ability for "evil" actions/thoughts is to remove freewill. If God is God and we are in the middle of an "evil" portion of eternity, what is a few billion years in relation to eternity?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on September 08, 2011, 09:54:28 PM
If good exists, then evil must exist to define what good is and is not. To prevent one is to do away with the other and thus render one or the other nothing.
This always confused me, since I'm not sure that taking away what's evil will destroy good rather than simply rename it. For instance, if you have enough food and water, a safe, comfortable shelter, enjoyable work and someone to love, that's good. If you eliminate thirst, starvation, danger, unemployment and loneliness, the good stuff still exists, its definition simply changes from "good" to "life".
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on September 08, 2011, 09:54:28 PM
Quote from: Free-Being on September 08, 2011, 06:14:46 AM
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus
If good exists, then evil must exist to define what good is and is not. To prevent one is to do away with the other and thus render one or the other nothing. God is called God because it is He that defines good and therefore evil; being all powerful can turn evil to good ( have good come from evil in the sense of the biblical character of Joseph )
If God is God and God is Good, then evil cannot be destroyed/prevented. To remove the ability for "evil" actions/thoughts is to remove freewill. If God is God and we are in the middle of an "evil" portion of eternity, what is a few billion years in relation to eternity?
Hi, AnimatedDirt.
From my perspective, good and evil are constructs whose definitions rely on some sort of presupposition or
a priori assumption. In your case, it seems that god is this presupposition, a "being" who, again in my view, is also a construction.
Good/evil, God/Satan are false binaries founded, in your case, on the prospect of the existence of an omnipotent and objective reality that you label "God."
Without the notion of god, this binary falls on itself. There is no true foundation to what constitutes good or evil, as their definitions always enter into the
realm of subjectivity.
Again, this is my perspective, a wholly subjective one also relying on its own set of assumptions.
Quote from: Free-Being on September 08, 2011, 06:14:46 AM
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus
Ok, I found something I am more sick of hearing than Lady Gaga's "Edge of Glory." Good job. :/
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 09, 2011, 05:57:12 AM
Quote from: Free-Being on September 08, 2011, 06:14:46 AM
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus
Ok, I found something I am more sick of hearing than Lady Gaga's "Edge of Glory." Good job. :/
Maybe we should put that to a poll.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on September 08, 2011, 09:54:28 PM
If good exists, then evil must exist to define what good is and is not.
Not really, unless you insist on making good and evil a dipole. Good and evil are conceptual and subjective. Objectively, it all amounts to shades of gray.
QuoteGod is called God because it is He that defines good and therefore evil;
As do I. Why am I not called god?
Quotebeing all powerful can turn evil to good ( have good come from evil in the sense of the biblical character of Joseph )
Turning good to evil and vice versa is not that hard, really, since one man's good is the other man's evil. Turn the tables, change some perspectives and you are there.
QuoteIf God is God and God is Good, then evil cannot be destroyed/prevented.
And what if god is not god, good is not good and preventing evil is just another expression for standing in the way of that which
you do not approve of?
QuoteTo remove the ability for "evil" actions/thoughts is to remove freewill.
Not quite that simple.
QuoteIf God is God and we are in the middle of an "evil" portion of eternity, what is a few billion years in relation to eternity?
What kind of time are we working with here? If linear as we use it, then a few billion years is quite a lot at the moment because the defineable frame of our linear time up to this point is no more than a few billion years.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 09, 2011, 06:28:00 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 09, 2011, 05:57:12 AM
Quote from: Free-Being on September 08, 2011, 06:14:46 AM
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus
Ok, I found something I am more sick of hearing than Lady Gaga's "Edge of Glory." Good job. :/
Maybe we should put that to a poll.
No more polls!! XD
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 09, 2011, 07:19:52 AM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on September 09, 2011, 06:28:00 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 09, 2011, 05:57:12 AM
Quote from: Free-Being on September 08, 2011, 06:14:46 AM
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus
Ok, I found something I am more sick of hearing than Lady Gaga's "Edge of Glory." Good job. :/
Maybe we should put that to a poll.
No more polls!! XD
Should someone make a poll asking if Free-Being should make more polls? I hope I'm not giving anybody any ideas here... :o
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 09, 2011, 08:33:10 AM
hope I'm not giving anybody any ideas here... :o
...Not sure 'bout that...
We should make a poll and ask them. :D
Quote from: Asmodean on September 09, 2011, 07:19:03 AMQuoteTo remove the ability for "evil" actions/thoughts is to remove freewill.
Not quite that simple.
This is something that has bugged me for a long while. Like the assumption is that there are only two choices for everything: a good choice and an evil choice. Just doesn't make sense to me.
Let's say you see a man hanging on a ledge who asks you for help and on a table next to you there is a rope, a crow bar, a rifle and a jet pack. Each one of those things can be used to do something good (help the person) or something evil (kill the person). So let's remove all the "evil" things a person can do with the items: is there only one choice remaining?
You could just tie a rope to something and toss it down, walk away and let the guy climb up himself. Maybe not what most people would consider the best action, but it's still good.
Or you could actively help the person using any combination of the four items until the guy was safely on top of the cliff.
The point is: even if all the evil choices are removed, there would still be several choices to make, hence removing "evil" doesn't remove "freewill".
I agree Davin. Most Religious crazies see the world in black and white. If you are not with God, you are against god.
I live my life in shades in gray in general.
Also, that whole good can't exist without evil is a load of horse shit.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 09, 2011, 05:21:30 PM
I agree Davin. Most Religious crazies see the world in black and white. If you are not with God, you are against god.
I live my life in shades in gray in general.
So do theists (in spite of their objections), they have no direct link to their god, what their god commands or anything their god wants; they only have the word of man to go off.
Quote from: SweetdeathAlso, that whole good can't exist without evil is a load of horse shit.
I agree if they're also proposing that the god is omnipotent.
Quote from: Davin on September 09, 2011, 04:12:54 PM
The point is: even if all the evil choices are removed, there would still be several choices to make, hence removing "evil" doesn't remove "freewill".
Thank you for demonstrating that point so Asmodean the Lazy F**k doesn't have to 8)
I love that quote, but maybe I'm in a minority of one (or two if we include FB). Plus FB is a free-being, I imagine starting up random polls is the kind of thing free-beings do!
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on September 08, 2011, 09:54:28 PM
If good exists, then evil must exist to define what good is and is not. To prevent one is to do away with the other and thus render one or the other nothing. God is called God because it is He that defines good and therefore evil; being all powerful can turn evil to good ( have good come from evil in the sense of the biblical character of Joseph )
that is strictly just your definition of 'god' and 'good' and not necessarily everyones. If I look up the definition 'good' in the dictionary or thesaurus, I don't find the word 'god' listed there! Plus not all gods have been inherently good in nature, the two words are far from synonymous. I and many others would include yours in that group.
QuoteIf God is God and God is Good, then evil cannot be destroyed/prevented. To remove the ability for "evil" actions/thoughts is to remove freewill.
The idea of freewill seems a bit of a cop-out and circular argument to me, to try and explain why an omnipotent good god would allow so much suffering and evil in the world. Why did he give people inclined to evil freewill in the first place? sounds like a mistake to me (so maybe Epicurus is right and your god's not omnipotent). Or was it just so he could take pleasure in punishing evildoers for all eternity along with us godless heathens?
QuoteIf God is God and we are in the middle of an "evil" portion of eternity, what is a few billion years in relation to eternity?
Trouble with this is your god's only been around 2000 years and probably won't be around in 2000 years time. And during his watch there's been plenty of evil, wars and suffering in the world, a lot of it caused by his followers. If you really think he works in the realm of billions of years, he seems to have scored a bit of an own goal by allowing so much evil and suffering in the world in the 2000 year blink-of-a-god's-eye that anyone's been bothered to worship or believe in him! Again, hardly omnipotent...