So, this happened in New York today at the Ride playland amusement park.
After celebrating Ramadan, group of muslims decided to go to park, but when muslim women refused to remove their headscarves, it got ugly.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/wild-scene-erupts-at-playland-police-arrest-15-in-dispute-over-muslim-hijab/
This is not first time it happened.:
http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/family-sees-mother-strangled-by-hijab-in-freak-gokarting-accident-20100408-rvci.html#ixzz1WZUDZQWH
So I think the police did waaaay over react, I feel as if this was a safety issue, and it's not fair to conpromise safety for religious beliefs.
Edit: hnnn.. Perhaps I should of posted this in Religion?
Sure, one could say that the police over-reacted, but that's how they respond when things get physical, in pretty much every situation. Their training tells them that when somebody struggles physically, they must maintain the upper hand, and a strong uncompromising response is the one sure way to do that. So I see it as standard policing practice at least from a US perspective. The park rent-a-cops seem to have started the physical stuff, which certainly isn't to their credit, but then the real police showed up, and they aren't supposed to mess around when there is a physical struggle going on.
The park rules make sense, and it sounds as if the organizers of the outing didn't take them into account, so in my opinion the blame for this can be laid to those organizers and the security staff at the park, but not the police.
,Agreed good sir!
I also don't blame the police. I do kinda want to start a new thread or wishef I posted this in religion section.
I think it's utterly absurb for muslims to not wish to remove their headscarves. This has been a big ptoblem in Australia where women drivers/passengers do not wish to remove them at police highway checkpoints.
Fuck that. I'm sorry, but too bad. Like stevil once said, you wanna live in a certain society, you gotta abide by the rules.
Apparently the tout group was told before hand that all head gear, including hats and scarves could not be worn on the rides for safety reasons.
Interesting article, but all of the bigoted comments at the bottom make me shutter.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 31, 2011, 06:16:10 PM
wishef I posted this in religion section.
it is moved now.
Well I'm still confused about this.
In the UK, it is law that you MUST wear a crash helmet when riding a motor cycle
but if you are a Sikh wearing a turban you can be excused.
This seems to be at odds with the headscarf problem.
Surely there should be one policy and EVERYBODY sticks to it, no matter what.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 31, 2011, 05:51:15 AM
This is not first time it happened.:
http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/family-sees-mother-strangled-by-hijab-in-freak-gokarting-accident-20100408-rvci.html#ixzz1WZUDZQWH
I hope that poor woman made it into the shortlist for the Darwin awards that year!
You're right though, headscarves could clearly be a safety risk, and I imagine in the US the amusement park owners are also shit scared of being sued should anything untoward happen as a result of headscarves being worn
Quote from: Evilbeagle on August 31, 2011, 08:46:36 PM
Surely there should be one policy and EVERYBODY sticks to it, no matter what.
Exactly. Catering to some religious beliefs and making exceptions is wrong. I'm tired of muslims getting offended .
A job wouldn't allow them to take breaks just to pray either. *rolls eyes*
me thinks we should invent a religion that allows us to do and wear whatever we want, and claim religious discrimination whenever anyone tries to stop us...
Quote from: Too Few Lions on August 31, 2011, 10:09:18 PM
me thinks we should invent a religion that allows us to do and wear whatever we want, and claim religious discrimination whenever anyone tries to stop us...
I'm for it. Especially since there's good money in starting a religion.
Quote from: Ihateyoumike on August 31, 2011, 11:01:19 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on August 31, 2011, 10:09:18 PM
me thinks we should invent a religion that allows us to do and wear whatever we want, and claim religious discrimination whenever anyone tries to stop us...
I'm for it. Especially since there's good money in starting a religion.
This is true. XD
I'll sue if I can't wear my unicorn horn!
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?77005-News-muslim-sisters-banned-from-amusement-park-ride
"The more islamophobic westerners get, the more stupid muslims become."
Pretty much all I would say.
Quote from: iSok on September 01, 2011, 12:13:42 AM
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?77005-News-muslim-sisters-banned-from-amusement-park-ride
"The more islamophobic westerners get, the more stupid muslims become."
Pretty much all I would say.
Ooookay. >>
Why link to another forum?
I hate Muzlims.
Now I feel like part of this group.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 01, 2011, 12:27:20 AM
Quote from: iSok on September 01, 2011, 12:13:42 AM
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?77005-News-muslim-sisters-banned-from-amusement-park-ride
"The more islamophobic westerners get, the more stupid muslims become."
Pretty much all I would say.
Ooookay. >>
Why link to another forum?
I think it was to demonstrate how Muslims not related to the group at the amusement park are responding to the event. (and because what he quoted was directly from that forum so he kinda had to cite it).
Quote from: Medusa on September 01, 2011, 01:20:01 AM
I hate Muzlims.
Now I feel like part of this group.
No one hates muslims. Just think It's idiotic to make a big deal about a garment. Hnnn. *eye roll*
Quote from: Medusa on September 01, 2011, 01:20:01 AM
I hate Muzlims.
Now I feel like part of this group.
What group?
I'm not sure what group she means either. No onr in this forum promoted or encourages hatred of any group/race.
Medusa, your "humor" is really uncalled for sometimes. You're being off topic as well.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 01, 2011, 04:00:53 AM
I'm not sure what group she means either. No onr in this forum promoted or encourages hatred of any group/race.
Medusa, your "humor" is really uncalled for sometimes. You're being off topic as well.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 31, 2011, 11:37:06 PM
Quote from: Ihateyoumike on August 31, 2011, 11:01:19 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on August 31, 2011, 10:09:18 PM
me thinks we should invent a religion that allows us to do and wear whatever we want, and claim religious discrimination whenever anyone tries to stop us...
I'm for it. Especially since there's good money in starting a religion.
This is true. XD
I'll sue if I can't wear my unicorn horn!
Because unicorns are on topic. ::)
I've seen women in full burka gear rocking it out on the rides next to me at Disneyland.
Ok, but this park had a rule against wearing their scarves. Most parks have the hat policy. At least every theme park i've been to.
They need to deal with it, because it is a safety concern for not just themselves.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 01, 2011, 03:19:05 AM
Quote from: Medusa on September 01, 2011, 01:20:01 AM
I hate Muzlims.
Now I feel like part of this group.
Just think It's idiotic to make a big deal about a garment. Hnnn. *eye roll*
1) I agree safety comes first. If it's in the rules, it's in the rules.
2) I do think things were over reacted on both ends. Seriously. If you can't get on that ride then get on another ride.
3) The statement I quoted bothers me in a very general sense. Not picking on Sweets for saying it. But it's a common assumption. It's just a scarf. Big fucking deal. I just don't get it. Well you wouldn't. You aren't Muslim. But what bothers me is that there is a big portion of the world thinking Muslim women are oppressed to the T with HAVING to be FORCED to wear such an oppressive garment. Yet they seem to go to the death to make sure it's not taken away from them. The world can't just have it both ways. You can't be oppressed and fight adamantly for your right to wear an oppressed item.
Should I take your non-response to my question to mean that you were referring to HAF members when saying "the group"? if so, I'll thank you to not accuse people of having a view they don't hold. Not a single person in this thread has expressed hatred towards muslims. I'll remind you that this isn't the first time you've tried to push the word hate on someone who doesn't have it.
Quote from: Whitney on September 01, 2011, 07:09:46 AM
Should I take your non-response to my question to mean that you were referring to HAF members when saying "the group"? if so, I'll thank you to not accuse people of having a view they don't hold. Not a single person in this thread has expressed hatred towards muslims. I'll remind you that this isn't the first time you've tried to push the word hate on someone who doesn't have it.
I was making a joke as to the tone of this thread. In fact after reading the replies I jumped back into the conversation and explained my position.
Welp, I will say that I don't know much about muslim women or culture, so I can't accurately give you a response about that.
This thread is ony about how it shouldnt be a big deal to follow the no hats on rides policy. Muslim women have made a big deal about their garments before, as I said af police highway checkpoints. It seems as if police and muslims clash a lot on such a crazy thing like fabric... X_x
Quote from: Medusa on September 01, 2011, 07:15:31 AM
Quote from: Whitney on September 01, 2011, 07:09:46 AM
Should I take your non-response to my question to mean that you were referring to HAF members when saying "the group"? if so, I'll thank you to not accuse people of having a view they don't hold. Not a single person in this thread has expressed hatred towards muslims. I'll remind you that this isn't the first time you've tried to push the word hate on someone who doesn't have it.
I was making a joke as to the tone of this thread. In fact after reading the replies I jumped back into the conversation and explained my position.
I don't think anyone got the joke.
Quote from: iSok on September 01, 2011, 12:13:42 AM
"The more islamophobic westerners get, the more stupid muslims become."
Pretty much all I would say.
there's nothing Islamophobic about enforcing health and safety rules (and no, I don't hate Muslims...)
Quote from: Medusa on September 01, 2011, 01:20:01 AM
I hate Muzlims.
Now I feel like part of this group.
I hate Muzlims too! Damb those 'mercan Muslims!
Quote from: iSok on September 01, 2011, 12:13:42 AM
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?77005-News-muslim-sisters-banned-from-amusement-park-ride
"The more islamophobic westerners get, the more stupid muslims become."
Pretty much all I would say.
The fact that 1:1,000 (or less) Muslims are nutters is what gets Muslims a bad name, it shouldn't, but it does, that's just human group think for you. In fact with 1,300,000,000 Muslims around it would only need 1:10,000 (or 0.01%) to be a nutter to give 130,000 fanatics, and they are the one's that take Jihad too far or believe too hard and think they are driven by Allah to kill.
I don't hate Muslims, but I do 'hate' Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism etc because they are all world views based on historical superstition and the assumption that a god or gods exists. Thus they hold humanity back from understanding what it truly is, an evolved creature. Evolution is pragmatic, not perfect, it has no aim or moral centre or ethical standards. Natural selection simply and brutally selects out those individuals in a group less able to reproduce, that's it, nothing more. Believing that there is a great big sky daddy that knows what's going on and will eventually make things all better is a stupid, stupid, way to behave. It's the ultimate cop-out from responsibility, the ultimate cowardice in the face of reality.
Humainity has to grow up and leave its childhood fairy stories behind and take full responsibility for its actions both individually and collectively and the first step is to flush belief for its own sake and faith down the toilet. ISoK you can't even effectivly define what your god is!
Quote from: Tank on September 01, 2011, 11:52:39 AM
Quote from: iSok on September 01, 2011, 12:13:42 AM
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?77005-News-muslim-sisters-banned-from-amusement-park-ride
"The more islamophobic westerners get, the more stupid muslims become."
Pretty much all I would say.
The fact that 1:1,000 (or less) Muslims are nutters is what gets Muslims a bad name, it shouldn't, but it does, that's just human group think for you. In fact with 1,300,000,000 Muslims around it would only need 1:10,000 (or 0.01%) to be a nutter to give 130,000 fanatics, and they are the one's that take Jihad too far or believe too hard and think they are driven by Allah to kill.
I don't hate Muslims, but I do 'hate' Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism etc because they are all world views based on historical superstition and the assumption that a god or gods exists. Thus they hold humanity back from understanding what it truly is, an evolved creature. Evolution is pragmatic, not perfect, it has no aim or moral centre or ethical standards. Natural selection simply and brutally selects out those individuals in a group less able to reproduce, that's it, nothing more. Believing that there is a great big sky daddy that knows what's going on and will eventually make things all better is a stupid, stupid, way to behave. It's the ultimate cop-out from responsibility, the ultimate cowardice in the face of reality.
Humainity has to grow up and leave its childhood fairy stories behind and take full responsibility for its actions both individually and collectively and the first step is to flush belief for its own sake and faith down the toilet. ISoK you can't even effectivly define what your god is!
We've had this discussion before...I can't define God and especially not in the way of the scientific method.
Tank, but I would love to start debating this with you.
Lets start with the following questions: What do you see as progress? What responsibilities do we have?
Quote from: iSok on September 01, 2011, 11:59:37 AM
Quote from: Tank on September 01, 2011, 11:52:39 AM
Quote from: iSok on September 01, 2011, 12:13:42 AM
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?77005-News-muslim-sisters-banned-from-amusement-park-ride
"The more islamophobic westerners get, the more stupid muslims become."
Pretty much all I would say.
The fact that 1:1,000 (or less) Muslims are nutters is what gets Muslims a bad name, it shouldn't, but it does, that's just human group think for you. In fact with 1,300,000,000 Muslims around it would only need 1:10,000 (or 0.01%) to be a nutter to give 130,000 fanatics, and they are the one's that take Jihad too far or believe too hard and think they are driven by Allah to kill.
I don't hate Muslims, but I do 'hate' Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism etc because they are all world views based on historical superstition and the assumption that a god or gods exists. Thus they hold humanity back from understanding what it truly is, an evolved creature. Evolution is pragmatic, not perfect, it has no aim or moral centre or ethical standards. Natural selection simply and brutally selects out those individuals in a group less able to reproduce, that's it, nothing more. Believing that there is a great big sky daddy that knows what's going on and will eventually make things all better is a stupid, stupid, way to behave. It's the ultimate cop-out from responsibility, the ultimate cowardice in the face of reality.
Humainity has to grow up and leave its childhood fairy stories behind and take full responsibility for its actions both individually and collectively and the first step is to flush belief for its own sake and faith down the toilet. ISoK you can't even effectivly define what your god is!
We've had this discussion before...I can't define God and especially not in the way of the scientific method.
Tank, but I would love to start debating this with you.
Lets start with the following questions: What do you see as progress? What responsibilities do we have?
Start a thread in the appropriate fora than, don't divert an existing thread please. And state your position first if you don't mind.
Quote from: Tank on September 01, 2011, 11:33:06 AM
Quote from: Medusa on September 01, 2011, 01:20:01 AM
I hate Muzlims.
Now I feel like part of this group.
I hate Muzlims too! Damb those 'mercan Muslims!
Iz thiz a jab towardz merkin'z over uze of replacing the letter 's' with the letter 'z' in zeveral wordz?
No one got killed or seriously injured, so it wasn't too bad.
The cops had to do their job and make everything all peaceful again, and as long as they do so without needlessly tazering or beating people, they did a decent job. I know from personal experience that in situations like this the police often arrest more than they need simpy because they don't know exactly who the need to arrest.
So as far as I know from the news, there isn't too much of a big deal in this story, but I appreciate the example that one can learn from. When explaining the policy the organizer should've been very clear. Because when someone says you aren't allowed to do something because you're wearing something you hold very important just because that is the way it is, it's difficult to see that as anything but discrimination.
Oh, you boys xD I just woke up. *laughs*
Btw, have any one else heard any stories reguarding this same topic?
This one comes most to mind:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/12/stealth-jihad-alert-georgia-judge-jails-muslim-woman-for-refusing-to-remove-headscarf-at-security-ch.htm
Anyway, my honest opinion is, you can wear whatever on your head. I don't have a problem with jihads, but for some reason, asing a woman to remove one is like asking hr to get her pants off. Seroously, calm down. I would not want a group of thsm to get on a ride with a potentially cause harm by getting caught in the mechanics or worse.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 01, 2011, 04:54:54 PM
but for some reason, asing a woman to remove one is like asking hr to get her pants off.
:D brilliant!
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 01, 2011, 03:19:05 AM
No one hates muslims. Just think It's idiotic to make a big deal about a garment. Hnnn. *eye roll*
This is a bit off topic since I haven't checked the link, yet. (Gonna do it when I get home)
Sweetdeath, can you please send me some topless photos to my email? I don't think it's a big deal, it's just a piece of garment, right?
See what I did there? Women, whatever their religion might be, have different opinions on what parts of their body they want to keep covered. Those Muslim women cover more than most women here, and you cover more than what some African tribes cover.
Would you simply take off your top to go on a ride? Or would you skip that ride?
PS: I was just joking about the pictures, I'm sorry in advance if I offended you or anything :)
*sigh* .... Seriously? Joking or not, you dont know me to say such "humor."
But ok, i'll just respond by saying they are raised to cover their face, but outside the middle east/egypt, they need to learn to adapt to other countries policies and laws.
I have to agree with the park owners on standing by their policy. It doesn't matter if the individual has religious reasons for wearing the head wear in question. Shame on the idiots involved that couldn't see that it's blatantly a matter of health & safety and insurance. Its the same issue as banks having a problem with women wearing the burker(sp?) in their branches as its a matter of security.
Their was another stupid incident like this a few years back involving British Airways asking an employee to conceal her cross necklace. It just highlights the stupidity that religion encourages. I didn't complain when I was reprimanded and almost lost my job by my previous employer for refusing to do work for a church which had absolutely nothing to do with my job.
Quote from: Crow on September 02, 2011, 01:32:33 AM
I have to agree with the park owners on standing by their policy. It doesn't matter if the individual has religious reasons for wearing the head wear in question. Shame on the idiots involved that couldn't see that it's blatantly a matter of health & safety and insurance. Its the same issue as banks having a problem with women wearing the burker(sp?) in their branches as its a matter of security.
Their was another stupid incident like this a few years back involving British Airways asking an employee to conceal her cross necklace. It just highlights the stupidity that religion encourages. I didn't complain when I was reprimanded and almost lost my job by my previous employer for refusing to do work for a church which had absolutely nothing to do with my job.
I was thinking about people at jobs. A bank wouldn't allow someone to cover their face. It's dangerous.
Your face is your identity.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 01, 2011, 04:54:54 PM
Oh, you boys xD I just woke up. *laughs*
Btw, have any one else heard any stories reguarding this same topic?
This one comes most to mind:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/12/stealth-jihad-alert-georgia-judge-jails-muslim-woman-for-refusing-to-remove-headscarf-at-security-ch.htm
Anyway, my honest opinion is, you can wear whatever on your head. I don't have a problem with jihads, but for some reason, asing a woman to remove one is like asking hr to get her pants off. Seroously, calm down. I would not want a group of thsm to get on a ride with a potentially cause harm by getting caught in the mechanics or worse.
You have your Islamic terms confused.
Jihad means struggle.
Hijab or Hijabi is the veil.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 02, 2011, 12:21:29 AM
*sigh* .... Seriously? Joking or not, you dont know me to say such "humor."
But ok, i'll just respond by saying they are raised to cover their face, but outside the middle east/egypt, they need to learn to adapt to other countries policies and laws.
1) in Egypt you aren't forced to wear anything. I know this because I've been told of the outfits Lecter gets to see on the beach.
*eyes Lecter
Oh! Thanks for correcting me. I'll remember the proper name for the terms now. :)
Quote from: Lecter on September 01, 2011, 11:16:59 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 01, 2011, 03:19:05 AM
No one hates muslims. Just think It's idiotic to make a big deal about a garment. Hnnn. *eye roll*
This is a bit off topic since I haven't checked the link, yet. (Gonna do it when I get home)
Sweetdeath, can you please send me some topless photos to my email? I don't think it's a big deal, it's just a piece of garment, right?
See what I did there? Women, whatever their religion might be, have different opinions on what parts of their body they want to keep covered. Those Muslim women cover more than most women here, and you cover more than what some African tribes cover.
Would you simply take off your top to go on a ride? Or would you skip that ride?
PS: I was just joking about the pictures, I'm sorry in advance if I offended you or anything :)
Fashion is a personal statement and clothes have also been closely associated with tribalism and orthopraxy ever since there have been clothes. I don't care what a person wears, up to the point where their clothing does not impinge on my safety/security. Loose and/or long clothing in the vicinity of machinery is dangerous, that is self-evident. Facial coverings are an issue when a person's identity needs to be confirmed.
However on a personal level I find the vail offensive, dehumanising and oppressive, but I also find the bikini offensive, dehumanising and oppressive as I don't see anything wrong/evil about the human body.
Quote from: Medusa on September 02, 2011, 05:48:10 AM
1) in Egypt you aren't forced to wear anything. I know this because I've been told of the outfits Lecter gets to see on the beach.
Does that not depends on the husband though..? Because to the best of my knowledge, nearly all muslim societies are male-dominated and if the male says woman has to wear a tent, than tent she wears..? And if she refuses, he can beat her with a stick..?
Never been to Egypt in particular, but parts of the muslim world I have visited were pretty much as described and not only in relation to wearing tents.
From my understanding, Egypt is one of the more liberal Islamic countries. There are American Muslims women who dress unmodestly too. To what extent they must cover depends on how fundamentalist the area is.
The only reason I find covering of the femaie body in Islam offensive to the women is because men are not held to the same standard. And yes I am well aware of how Muslim women who do cover themselves feel about the covering or at least the feelings of those in free areas where taking it off would not have legal or social consequences.
Quote from: Tank on September 02, 2011, 08:15:47 AM
Quote from: Lecter on September 01, 2011, 11:16:59 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 01, 2011, 03:19:05 AM
No one hates muslims. Just think It's idiotic to make a big deal about a garment. Hnnn. *eye roll*
This is a bit off topic since I haven't checked the link, yet. (Gonna do it when I get home)
Sweetdeath, can you please send me some topless photos to my email? I don't think it's a big deal, it's just a piece of garment, right?
See what I did there? Women, whatever their religion might be, have different opinions on what parts of their body they want to keep covered. Those Muslim women cover more than most women here, and you cover more than what some African tribes cover.
Would you simply take off your top to go on a ride? Or would you skip that ride?
PS: I was just joking about the pictures, I'm sorry in advance if I offended you or anything :)
Fashion is a personal statement and clothes have also been closely associated with tribalism and orthopraxy ever since there have been clothes. I don't care what a person wears, up to the point where their clothing does not impinge on my safety/security. Loose and/or long clothing in the vicinity of machinery is dangerous, that is self-evident. Facial coverings are an issue when a person's identity needs to be confirmed.
However on a personal level I find the vail offensive, dehumanising and oppressive, but I also find the bikini offensive, dehumanising and oppressive as I don't see anything wrong/evil about the human body.
Wow, Tank <3
I really dislike veils in any way (this includes wedding veils) because they make women into an object. "oh, woman must be pure and virginal!"
I think its evil to place such ridiculous labels on only women. And like Whitney said, men in muslim countries arent held to any standards. And even though medusa says over and over that "muslim or egyptian women are fiesty." They are still repressed. It is still extremely male dominated countries in which I have no desire to ever go.
You say they are forced to wear veil, but I think they are brainwashed into wearing from birth.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 02, 2011, 12:21:29 AM
*sigh* .... Seriously? Joking or not, you dont know me to say such "humor."
But ok, i'll just respond by saying they are raised to cover their face, but outside the middle east/egypt, they need to learn to adapt to other countries policies and laws.
Your reply supports exactly what I was trying to say. You took offense because I asked you to 'just take a garment off'. Now you know exactly what those women feel like when someone says, 'just take it off, it's no big deal'.
Always, remember that feeling.
Quote from: Tank on September 02, 2011, 08:15:47 AM
Fashion is a personal statement and clothes have also been closely associated with tribalism and orthopraxy ever since there have been clothes. I don't care what a person wears, up to the point where their clothing does not impinge on my safety/security. Loose and/or long clothing in the vicinity of machinery is dangerous, that is self-evident. Facial coverings are an issue when a person's identity needs to be confirmed.
However on a personal level I find the vail offensive, dehumanising and oppressive, but I also find the bikini offensive, dehumanising and oppressive as I don't see anything wrong/evil about the human body.
I wasn't discussing what women should or should not be wearing. You misunderstood my point. I was addressing the statement that they should just take it off.
This isn't about Islam, and this isn't about religion. Women all over the world choose to cover certain parts of their body, and it shouldn't matter what you or I want them to uncover. If they want to keep a certain part covered for whatever reason they have in their head, it would be quite silly to want them to just uncover.
You have every right to disagree with their reasons for covering, you do not have the right to reach your hand and uncover them against their will. Unless it's for safety reasons or whatever rules a certain place has. But then again, this is something that should be enforced by the representatives of law and not just random people on the street.
Quote from: Lecter on September 02, 2011, 06:46:29 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 02, 2011, 08:15:47 AM
Fashion is a personal statement and clothes have also been closely associated with tribalism and orthopraxy ever since there have been clothes. I don't care what a person wears, up to the point where their clothing does not impinge on my safety/security. Loose and/or long clothing in the vicinity of machinery is dangerous, that is self-evident. Facial coverings are an issue when a person's identity needs to be confirmed.
However on a personal level I find the vail offensive, dehumanising and oppressive, but I also find the bikini offensive, dehumanising and oppressive as I don't see anything wrong/evil about the human body.
I wasn't discussing what women should or should not be wearing. You misunderstood my point. I was addressing the statement that they should just take it off.
This isn't about Islam, and this isn't about religion. Women all over the world choose to cover certain parts of their body, and it shouldn't matter what you or I want them to uncover. If they want to keep a certain part covered for whatever reason they have in their head, it would be quite silly to want them to just uncover.
You have every right to disagree with their reasons for covering, you do not have the right to reach your hand and uncover them against their will. Unless it's for safety reasons or whatever rules a certain place has. But then again, this is something that should be enforced by the representatives of law and not just random people on the street.
How many non-muslim women 'choose' to cover their faces?
In my experience security guards are not hired for their tact or intelligence.
Quote from: Tank on September 02, 2011, 07:00:30 PM
How many non-muslim women 'choose' to cover their faces?
In my experience security guards are not hired for their tact or intelligence.
So only non Muslim women can wear what they want? And if it's a Muslim women then that gives you the right to force them to uncover?
Again, I don't discriminate between women because of religion, any woman can wear what she wants, and even if I disagree with her reasons, I don't have the right to force her to uncover.
By the way, I haven't yet commented on this specific incident. I was making a comment about a reply I read here.
Quote from: Lecter on September 02, 2011, 07:19:44 PM
Quote from: Tank on September 02, 2011, 07:00:30 PM
How many non-muslim women 'choose' to cover their faces?
In my experience security guards are not hired for their tact or intelligence.
So only non Muslim women can wear what they want? And if it's a Muslim women then that gives you the right to force them to uncover?
How many non-muslim women 'choose' to cover their faces? Answer: Very, very, few, if any. If a woman wants to wear a vail that's fine by me, however there are places, all culturally Arab/Islamic(?), where women
have to cover their faces. In the case of Saudi Arabia they can be beaten for not wearing one. Is that not so? Now if some insensitive and ignorent security guard touches any clothing of any person without good reason they are in the wrong, face vails included.
Quote from: Lecter on September 02, 2011, 07:19:44 PM
Again, I don't discriminate between women because of religion, any woman can wear what she wants, and even if I disagree with her reasons, I don't have the right to force her to uncover.
Well we know you are quite open minded about other people's views and gender and all kinds of stuff, you hang out with Medusa! I wouldn't expect you to discriminate between anybody based on their religion.
Quote from: Lecter on September 02, 2011, 07:19:44 PM
By the way, I haven't yet commented on this specific incident. I was making a comment about a reply I read here.
Understood.
Quote from: Lecter on September 02, 2011, 06:46:29 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 02, 2011, 12:21:29 AM
*sigh* .... Seriously? Joking or not, you dont know me to say such "humor."
But ok, i'll just respond by saying they are raised to cover their face, but outside the middle east/egypt, they need to learn to adapt to other countries policies and laws.
Your reply supports exactly what I was trying to say. You took offense because I asked you to 'just take a garment off'. Now you know exactly what those women feel like when someone says, 'just take it off, it's no big deal'.
Always, remember that feeling.
Quote from: Tank on September 02, 2011, 08:15:47 AM
Fashion is a personal statement and clothes have also been closely associated with tribalism and orthopraxy ever since there have been clothes. I don't care what a person wears, up to the point where their clothing does not impinge on my safety/security. Loose and/or long clothing in the vicinity of machinery is dangerous, that is self-evident. Facial coverings are an issue when a person's identity needs to be confirmed.
However on a personal level I find the vail offensive, dehumanising and oppressive, but I also find the bikini offensive, dehumanising and oppressive as I don't see anything wrong/evil about the human body.
I wasn't discussing what women should or should not be wearing. You misunderstood my point. I was addressing the statement that they should just take it off.
This isn't about Islam, and this isn't about religion. Women all over the world choose to cover certain parts of their body, and it shouldn't matter what you or I want them to uncover. If they want to keep a certain part covered for whatever reason they have in their head, it would be quite silly to want them to just uncover.
You have every right to disagree with their reasons for covering, you do not have the right to reach your hand and uncover them against their will. Unless it's for safety reasons or whatever rules a certain place has. But then again, this is something that should be enforced by the representatives of law and not just random people on the street.
Ew, what a creeper's response. e__e
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 02, 2011, 08:00:16 PM
Quote from: Lecter on September 02, 2011, 06:46:29 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 02, 2011, 12:21:29 AM
*sigh* .... Seriously? Joking or not, you dont know me to say such "humor."
But ok, i'll just respond by saying they are raised to cover their face, but outside the middle east/egypt, they need to learn to adapt to other countries policies and laws.
Your reply supports exactly what I was trying to say. You took offense because I asked you to 'just take a garment off'. Now you know exactly what those women feel like when someone says, 'just take it off, it's no big deal'.
Always, remember that feeling.
Quote from: Tank on September 02, 2011, 08:15:47 AM
Fashion is a personal statement and clothes have also been closely associated with tribalism and orthopraxy ever since there have been clothes. I don't care what a person wears, up to the point where their clothing does not impinge on my safety/security. Loose and/or long clothing in the vicinity of machinery is dangerous, that is self-evident. Facial coverings are an issue when a person's identity needs to be confirmed.
However on a personal level I find the vail offensive, dehumanising and oppressive, but I also find the bikini offensive, dehumanising and oppressive as I don't see anything wrong/evil about the human body.
I wasn't discussing what women should or should not be wearing. You misunderstood my point. I was addressing the statement that they should just take it off.
This isn't about Islam, and this isn't about religion. Women all over the world choose to cover certain parts of their body, and it shouldn't matter what you or I want them to uncover. If they want to keep a certain part covered for whatever reason they have in their head, it would be quite silly to want them to just uncover.
You have every right to disagree with their reasons for covering, you do not have the right to reach your hand and uncover them against their will. Unless it's for safety reasons or whatever rules a certain place has. But then again, this is something that should be enforced by the representatives of law and not just random people on the street.
Ew, what a creeper's response. e__e
Sweetdeath, that's very uncivil thing to say about or to another member.
On a personal level here.....
Hassan's mother does not wear a veil.
I do not wear a veil.
I will be making a decision to wear a veil when I marry Hassan.
All of these are choices made by women. None of them were made by any husbands.
Which one is not allowed?
QuoteHow many non-muslim women 'choose' to cover their faces? Answer: Very, very, few, if any. If a woman wants to wear a vail that's fine by me, however there are places, all culturally Arab/Islamic(?), where women have to cover their faces. In the case of Saudi Arabia they can be beaten for not wearing one. Is that not so? Now if some insensitive and ignorent security guard touches any clothing of any person without good reason they are in the wrong, face vails included.
You bring up an excellent point! I have always believed those are culteral customs as opposed to Islamic customs. Take Saudi Arabia as you say. You have certain decency laws there (that also cover men). Now in Malaysia (the largest population of Muslims) they wear veils in a very different way. Almost like one would wear when doing errands around here. I have a large Malaysian bowling group that comes in and bowls regularly. They show some hair. At the Vatican women enter the Catholic church with a veiled head covering usually of lace. In Mexico older women do the same thing. In American older Hispanic Catholics do it while other younger ones do not. It's not the religion. It's the interpretation of the religion AND the culture you happen to be in. The same way Jewish women either wear a scarf or the more popular and less known fact that they do in fact cover their hair...with wigs. Depending upon the culture they are in.
As for beating women? I am pretty sure Non Theists beat the shit out of women too.
Quote from: Medusa on September 02, 2011, 11:56:10 PM
On a personal level here.....
Hassan's mother does not wear a veil.
I do not wear a veil.
I will be making a decision to wear a veil when I marry Hassan.
All of these are choices made by women. None of them were made by any husbands.
Which one is not allowed?
QuoteHow many non-muslim women 'choose' to cover their faces? Answer: Very, very, few, if any. If a woman wants to wear a vail that's fine by me, however there are places, all culturally Arab/Islamic(?), where women have to cover their faces. In the case of Saudi Arabia they can be beaten for not wearing one. Is that not so? Now if some insensitive and ignorent security guard touches any clothing of any person without good reason they are in the wrong, face vails included.
You bring up an excellent point! I have always believed those are culteral customs as opposed to Islamic customs. Take Saudi Arabia as you say. You have certain decency laws there (that also cover men). Now in Malaysia (the largest population of Muslims) they wear veils in a very different way. Almost like one would wear when doing errands around here. I have a large Malaysian bowling group that comes in and bowls regularly. They show some hair. At the Vatican women enter the Catholic church with a veiled head covering usually of lace. In Mexico older women do the same thing. In American older Hispanic Catholics do it while other younger ones do not. It's not the religion. It's the interpretation of the religion AND the culture you happen to be in. The same way Jewish women either wear a scarf or the more popular and less known fact that they do in fact cover their hair...with wigs. Depending upon the culture they are in.
As for beating women? I am pretty sure Non Theists beat the shit out of women too.
My point was not aimed at physical violence between individuals of either gender or any theistic or atheistic alignment. I was referring specifically to the Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (Saudi Arabia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_the_Propagation_of_Virtue_and_the_Prevention_of_Vice_%28Saudi_Arabia%29) (aka Mutaween) and in particular their roll in "checking that women wear the abaya, a traditional all-enveloping black cloak.". The Mutaween beat people with sticks who do not adhere to the strict Saudi dress code, women have no choice about what they wear in public.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 02, 2011, 06:08:27 AM
Oh! Thanks for correcting me. I'll remember the proper name for the terms now. :)
You'd better - or I'll put a jihad on you too!
/end reference
Quote from: Ihateyoumike on September 07, 2011, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on September 02, 2011, 06:08:27 AM
Oh! Thanks for correcting me. I'll remember the proper name for the terms now. :)
You'd better - or I'll put a jihad on you too!
/end reference
Oh ho ho xP but i'm sure wearing that thing is
totally opinional~?
The custom may be cultural or it may be religious, but that doesn't mean that women covering themselves and men remaining un-covered doesn't have certain gendered implications no matter what the reason or how they feel about it. Any form or clothing, or lack of clothing, is a social comment. I'm not saying that it's "evil" or anything like that, and I wear clothes just like anyone else, but you can dissect the sociology behind something and still participate in it.
If you want to wear a veil, I'd say go for it, but I think it's a little silly to say that there's no reasonable interpretation that it's sexist. Women wear them and men don't. Only one sex. Sexist by definition.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 31, 2011, 05:51:15 AM
So, this happened in New York today at the Ride playland amusement park.
After celebrating Ramadan, group of muslims decided to go to park, but when muslim women refused to remove their headscarves, it got ugly.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/wild-scene-erupts-at-playland-police-arrest-15-in-dispute-over-muslim-hijab/
This is not first time it happened.:
http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/family-sees-mother-strangled-by-hijab-in-freak-gokarting-accident-20100408-rvci.html#ixzz1WZUDZQWH
So I think the police did waaaay over react, I feel as if this was a safety issue, and it's not fair to conpromise safety for religious beliefs.
Edit: hnnn.. Perhaps I should of posted this in Religion?
I'm not saying the park's rules weren't reasonable, that they shouldn't have been followed, or that the police overreacted. I'm just a little skeptical of the source of this article. Here is another article from the New York Daily News that puts a slightly different twist on the event.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-08-31/news/30114102_1_head-scarf-head-scarves-muslims
I found this particularly interesting:
Quote from: The Blaze
He said park officials were in the process of arranging refunds when members of the Muslim group got into a scuffle with each other.
Quote from: NY Daily News"We requested a refund and all of a sudden an argument became a riot," Alrabah said. "Cops came. They were hitting my brother, my dad. My husband was on the floor and they were handcuffing him.
The article does later state:
Quote from: NY Daily NewsMany Muslims were given refunds as they left the park disappointed.
It just seems to me as if the article from the Blaze was written from a biased standpoint.
As far as the issue with the headdresses go, this is just yet reason why blind obedience to rules set forth by religion is illogical. I have a friend who is an orthodox Jew who came to this conclusion when she gave birth to her second child. Orthodox Jews also require women to wear head coverings. She was really sick after giving birth and was in the hospital for several days with a high fever. Her father-in-law came to visit her and refused to the enter the hospital room unless she covered her head (which of course you can't do if you have a fever). She was so insulted by this gesture that since then she has decided that covering her head is only necessary when she see's fit and often goes without it.