Happy Atheist Forum

i was just wondering what, if anything, would cause you to consider God as having a valid claim on your life?  do you think you are forever set in your ways, beliefwise?    well, some of you said you did believe at one point, so you have changed your beliefs at least ONCE.

so what would make you change you mind again?  maybe if you only had one day left to live?

yes, i know, as i said before, death is certainly a big consideration for me, and i am fearful of dying, but death IS a scary and unfathomable thing to me.

just the other week, a good workmate of mine died when he fell downstairs at home and broke his neck.  he was 41, strong as an ox.  he wasnt a christian, but a good workmate who i respected a lot.  now he's gone, just like that.

my parents are dead, my brother died in an explosion aged 17, so yes, death has had quite an impact in my life, and its something that we cant completely ignore, nor should  we dwell excessively on it either, but it does deserve at least some consideration for each one of us.  but death is not the only motivating factor in my beliefs. far from it.

but since you atheists dont seem to have or want any of those other factors (faith, love, hope, thankfulness to God), etc, i was wondering if there was anything that would cause you to consider again?

by the way, how am i SUPPOSED to post answers on here?  Do i READ a question in one forum, and answer it in another, or answer it in the section that it was first posted?  just wondering what the standard rule is.

Before I get to the rest of my post...what makes you think that atheists have no love or hope? How DARE you imply that without your piddling mistake of a religion, we can't feel love for our fellow man and hope for the future? Nothing gives you that right.

And what would make me consider changing my mind? Proof! That's what I want! Don't give me lovey dovey pictures of Heaven and threats of eternal torture! Give me proof! Show me something concrete!

yeah, twist of cain, didnt mean to imply it that way.  what i meant was you have no love for God, or hope in Him - things related to faith!  not your outlook in general.

i should have tried to explain it better, sorry about that.

by the way, where's the rest of your posting, which you didn;t get to yet?

Sorry, I snapped. I probably should have understood it. The rest of my post was that second paragraph.

Listen, if you could give proof that the god of the bible exists, I probably still wouldn't worship him. The bible depicts a sick, sadistic, sexist prick whom I would view the same way as I view my father: How the hell did I come from that?
Yeah, I would believe in him if logic compelled me to, but I could never praise the bible's god. And I certainly wouldn't look forward to the hereafter, considering both those options sound pretty awful.

PS-This is totally my favorite xtian question...I always wonder why they ask it. Do they think if they can just get the answer, they can provide whatever it is?

Quote from: "TwistOfCain"Sorry, I snapped. I probably should have understood it. The rest of my post was that second paragraph.

Don't worry, I kind of read it the same way, but I was going to give him the benefit of doubt.

I want God to give me a Red Ryder BB gun for Christmas, then I'll believe in him. No foolies!

Hello...can you say CASH?  Everyone knows atheists' beliefs can be bought off.  If no cash is involved, then damn it, you'll have to provide proof...the word Christians hate more than anything.  Tell you what...you provide one documented case of your God healing an amputee, and you will have my full attention.  Until you can prove to me that your god does not have a special hatred for those that have lost their limbs, forget about it.  He seems quite willing to rescue you, and cure others of their illnesses, so why he so vehemently hates amputees is beyond me.  Once you cross that threshold, I will give you my undivided attention.

Just so you get that reference, onlyme: www.whywontgodhealamputees.com (http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com)

yes i looked at the website about amputees.
how do you know God has never healed an amputee, though?

in the bible He even raised the dead, which He said He would do again to all of us at the last day, if you will believe that.

i know nothing much seems to be happening to convince a lot of people at the moment, but that doesnt mean its not going to happen.

look as well at all the prophecies in the bible which are clearly coming true these days, these have been well documented and examined, and a growing number of people are begnning to realise that something is indeed beginning to happen, and that it was foretold.

Uh, yeah, whatever. In the Bible it also says to ravish the women of your enemies' camp. And that a raped woman must wed her rapist. Lovely, isn't it?

Quote from: "Big Mac"And that a raped woman must wed her rapist. Lovely, isn't it?

Ugh, it says that? I swear, if any of the pricks who wrote that crap were still alive, I would definitely learn how to use a gun.

And that a raped woman must wed her rapist. Lovely, isn't it?

where does it say that, Big Mac?

Quote from: "onlyme"And that a raped woman must wed her rapist. Lovely, isn't it?

where does it say that, Big Mac?

I'm going to work right now, however I will be off tonight and I will find the passage, it states clearly that. You should read Levictus more closely.

where does it say that, Big Mac?

He just said he had to go to work, onlyme, and he'll get back to you. Don't be a jerk.

Quoteso what would make you change you mind again?

He'd have to show up. He's god, he can figure out what it would take to convince the world. But, it's got to be something more substantial than a 2000 year old highly edited and misinterpreted book.

Quotemaybe if you only had one day left to live?

I'm not afraid of death. I came to terms with my mortality long ago. I didn't exist for trillions of years before I was born, why should I fear non existence for eternity after I die? I won't know, nor care.

Quoteand i am fearful of dying, but death IS a scary and unfathomable thing to me.

That is probably the single biggest reason people believe in a god. Fear.

I almost wish that there were a god, and that he did reveal himself. I have the sneaking suspicion that he wouldn't resemble anything you think you know about god. What makes you so sure that your small little sect within the minority religion on the planet is correct?

I must add that I'm with Court on this one. IF god exists, and IF he is the judeo christian version, I will take my punishment as a man. I refuse to bow down before the tyrant depicted in the Wholly Babble. To worship this thug, that chooses favorites, commits genocide, kills women and children, punishes innocent people for the crimes of others, promotes discrimination, is a disgusting idea.

onlyme, here's your bible quote:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?bo ... xt=context (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=22&verse=27&end_verse=29&version=31&context=context)

Deuteronomy 22:27-29 (New International Version)

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [a] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

So instead of punishing the rapist, god makes him pay for sex and then further tortures the woman by making her marry the creep who raped her.  

Do you still think the bible makes sense?  Do you still not understand why we refuse to worship this god?  Atheists actually read the bible.  Do you?

Where were you before you were born?  Were you afraid?  I have no fear of death.  

I'm sorry you've experienced so much loss in your life.   But being afraid is no way to live.

Something in this thread and others that concerns me are the short fuses people seem to have. Forums such as this are places where people exchange ideas, discuss them and sometimes debate them. Come on folks, learn to discuss and debate without the name-calling, please. These things exist to share ideas, not to flame someone every time you disagree. Take the time before posting to think a little bit.

I disagree with onlyme's theology, but there's no reason to continue to flame and bash him, or call him a jerk. Please try an show a little tact.

Quote from: "onlyme"i was just wondering what, if anything, would cause you to consider God as having a valid claim on your life?  do you think you are forever set in your ways, beliefwise?    well, some of you said you did believe at one point, so you have changed your beliefs at least ONCE.

so what would make you change you mind again?  maybe if you only had one day left to live?

Other than direct intervention from God himself, nothing would cause me to believe in the Christian version of God again.  I don't know how familiar you are with some of the less warm and fuzzy parts of the bible...there are quite a few of them:  http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com) is a good place to quickly look at some of those parts.  The site uses the kjv version, just so you know.  I also have a philosophical reasons for why that sort of god isn't as loving as churches try to make him sound.  One of them is in the religioin section titled "problem of design."

If for some reason I found out for certain the Christian (or Muslim) version of god is correct, I'd have a lot of deep thinking to do as to whether I'd give into fear and follow or stand by by convictions in rebellion.  Right now, completely believing they are the creations of man, I have no problem saying I wouldn't follow either.  But I also know that if such a evil tempered god were standing face to face to me I'm a whimp and would have to rethink how willing I am to directly reject such a being.

So, I have intellectual reasons which back up my emotional reasons for reaching the conclusion that certain types of gods don't exist, namely the Judeo/Christian/Islam religions and it would take obvious divine intervention for me to change my mind on those.

I think what I have said so far pretty much answers the question of if I would repent just before death.  That answer is no.  I'm actually not afraid of death at all.  Death is a natural part of life and it is useless to be afraid of the inevitable.  My grandmother died not too long after I reached the conclusion that a god doesn't exist.  I didn't go back and pray to god to keep her around longer or anything like that.  She was suffering from cancer and it was time for her body to let go.  I was sad for her to be gone but also happy that she was no longer suffering.

So, what would make be believe in a god in general.  A solid philosophical proof would be good enough.  Right now the only ones that slightly hint at the possibility of a god (anything is possible anyway) but none indicate that there would have to be a god....possible doesn't mean probable.  Divine intervention of some sort would also work, maybe seeing a ghost or something.  But, seeing something like a ghost or other non deity-like supernatural being wouldn't necessarily be proof of a god...it would just make me seriously rethink my position.  I've never seen anything supernatural, so I don't really expect to ever see anything like that.

Deuteronomy

22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;    
22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.


'lay hold on her' is interpreted by biblical scholars to mean 'rape'.

good point, amor fati

lay hold on her seems to be saying they engaged in premarital sex thats all, not rape.

giving of money was common in those days, also

and 'he may not put her away all his days' does seem to imply that he is not to just dump her after having his wicked way, more of a protection for the girl than a betrayal.

that's my interpretation, anyway, i think it was distorted by some of the other postings

by the way, thanks McQ for standing up for me

Quote from: "onlyme"lay hold on her seems to be saying they engaged in premarital sex thats all, not rape.

Please explain. It does honestly sound like rape to me. Is your interpretation more valid than a bible scholar's?

Quote from: "onlyme"giving of money was common in those days, also

Slavery was also common in those days, but that doesn't make it okay for god to advocate it in his best-seller merely to sell more copies (he does advocate slavery, by the way).

court, regarding your earlier postings, you do seem to have a big problem seeing anything good in the God of the bible, maybe related to treatment you also received from your own father, a mistake quite a lot of people make, if that's what you meant

regarding God being sadistic or murderous, i've been doing research into ancient biblical history which seems to suggest that there was some kind of sexual breeding with fallen angels, (demons nephilim, giants of old), which contaminated and degraded the gene pool and resulted in genetically altered mutants of some kind, so its possible God destroyed the evil race, yes, like with sodom.  i'm not entirely sure, though, it's just that it seems to be hinted at.

i've noticed too, as McQ seemed to indicate, that a few of you on here seem to be, well, bitter and angry cos of some of the questions i ask, or points i make.

we Christians have always had to put up with ridicule and even persecution for our beliefs, as is well known,

the point i'm making is, if you are convinced so strongly about what you believe, i think maybe you should be able to discuss your beliefs and have them open to scrutiny without getting so offended or uptight

is that not so?

maybe not, let me know

Just took a look through biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com) to see how many of the different versions translated it. Here are my results:

New International Version:                       "rape"
King James Version:                              "lay hold"
New Living Translation:                          "rape"
New American Standard Version:                   "seizes her"
English Standard Version:                        "seizes her"
Contemporary English Version:                    "talks her into sleeping with him"
New King James Version:                          "seizes her"
Young's Literal Translation:                     "hath caught her"
New Life Version:                                "takes her"
New International Reader's Version:              "rapes her"
Today's New International Version:               "rapes her"


I think a fairly strong case could be made that the author of Deuteronomy intended it to mean rape.

onlyme, you seem to have missed my questions, so I'll ask them again.

Quote from: "MommaSquid"Atheists actually read the bible.  Do you?

Where were you before you were born?  Were you afraid?

I don't feel angry, bitter, offended or uptight in regards to you asking questions.  I do feel that you should do some homework before coming to an atheist website and asking questions.  Atheists know a lot about religion, but you don't seem to have a basic understanding of atheists.  I wouldn't advise you to rely on us to answer all of your questions.  We all found our own answers, and so should you.

(The above should not be read in an angry tone, as that was not my intent.  Emotions are sometimes hard to judge online.)

Quote from: "onlyme"i've noticed too, as McQ seemed to indicate, that a few of you on here seem to be, well, bitter and angry cos of some of the questions i ask, or points i make.

I'm not bitter or angry as long as you are actually discussing the issues at hand with an open mind and as little bias as possible. If you are really here to consider perspectives other than your own, then I am glad you are on this forum.

Quote from: "onlyme"we Christians have always had to put up with ridicule and even persecution for our beliefs, as is well known,

I'm not sure how it is over there in Europe, but here in North America, Christianity is the leading religious group. How can the majority be persecuted? I don't know how Christians can have this persecution-complex when the majority of those in the government over here are religious to some extent and the majority of the general population regard Jesus as their personal saviour...

Quote from: "onlyme"the point i'm making is, if you are convinced so strongly about what you believe, i think maybe you should be able to discuss your beliefs and have them open to scrutiny without getting so offended or uptight

If you have valid criticisms about our worldviews, then I welcome them into discussion. Some of them though are obviously invalid suspicions bred from ignorance.

Mommasquid

Atheists actually read the bible. Do you?

Where were you before you were born? Were you afraid?

1:  yes, i do read the bible, its just that its so big and contains such a lot of info that i cant remember most of it off the top of my head.

2:  i obviously have no recollection of before i was born, but in the bible God said that He knew us before He formed us in the womb.  before the foundation of the world.

i dont know what to make of that personally.  i just know it's there.

Quote from: "onlyme"court, regarding your earlier postings, you do seem to have a big problem seeing anything good in the God of the bible, maybe related to treatment you also received from your own father, a mistake quite a lot of people make, if that's what you meant

I never said I have a problem with seeing anything good in god...the judeo-christian god could be good sometimes, but the most part, he was pretty f***ed-up. All I had to do was read the bible to get that (for some examples, www.skepticsannotatedbible.com (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com), click on women, family, violence, etc for a good look at god in the bible)....You have no idea what my relationship with my father is, so please don't project that crap that christians always think: I'm not angry with god because my home life was a mess. He didn't beat me or rape me or anything, he was a just a dick. Still is; I was just making the point that despite his imperfections, I'm still a pretty decent, well-rounded person. The same person I would be if I found out god was real, only I'd be shocked that normal people could possibly be created by such a monster. The christian god is one scary mofo.

court, i wasnt trying to imply anything out of hand, i was trying to be careful not to overstep the mark, as your point was a little hard to follow.  anyway, i think we have to realise that God IS God, who has the right to create or destroy life (and worlds) as He wills, and that's why i think it is good to fear God, ie, have a healthy respect and reverence for Him, and so not get too arrogant.  we are all only human after all, and mortal, and vulnerable, and limited both in our understanding and our capabilities.   is it not better to be safe than sorry.

no offence meant earlier, by the way

Quote from: "onlyme"i've noticed too, as McQ seemed to indicate, that a few of you on here seem to be, well, bitter and angry cos of some of the questions i ask, or points i make.

we Christians have always had to put up with ridicule and even persecution for our beliefs, as is well known,

the point i'm making is, if you are convinced so strongly about what you believe, i think maybe you should be able to discuss your beliefs and have them open to scrutiny without getting so offended or uptight

is that not so?

maybe not, let me know

Well, I'm a little pissed that you think you suddenly know why I'm an atheist because my father is a jerk. But I'll forgive you; you all do it. Just remember that my deconversion happened after I stopped talking to him, and has absolutely nothing to with my family. I stopped believing in god because he made no sense, not because I was angry at him or hurt.

Atheists may tend to get uptight in these conversations I think because we hear the same tired arguments with no rationality behind them all the time. It's a bit tedious to have to tell every self-righteous christian the same answers for the same questions. But that's our choice. After all, we don't have to be on forums or even answer christians. However, part of it stems from the christian "I'm always right, no matter WHAT you say" stance, which is incredibly frustrating. If you're here to convert, leave. You're not going to do any good witnessing to a bunch of atheists who are comfortable enough to call themselves such (or agnostics). If you want to have an open discussion in which you are willing to at least consider our side of the argument, that's fine. Unfortunately, that is not what most christians do. Trust me, we have all considered your side of the argument, and are willing to talk if you can seriously consider ours.

Quote from: "onlyme"God IS God, who has the right to create or destroy life

Entertaining the idea that this god exists,

It would be his right to destroy life. If you build something, you can break it too. But it is horribly irresponsible and evil. Just because it's his right to do something doesn't mean that I can't judge him for it. Surely there are more "loving" ways to deal with his perceived problems, isn't there?

Problem: There are some bad people in the world.

God's solution: Drown everyone!

Problem: Everyone is sinning.

God's solution: Make a kid and kill him! Then state that said action forgives people's sins. (Can't an all-powerful entity forgive sins without killing someone?)

Problem: Some people don't believe in God.

God's solution: Build a place that burns forever and send people there to be in excruciating pain for all of eternity!

Now are these the best ways to deal with these problems? I'm not omniscient yet even I could think of much better ways to correct them...

Dammit you guys, I wanted to throw that one at him. I'm not angry, bitter, etc. I'm irritated by ignorant Christians who come on our place and piss all over the carpet, then expect us to be sporting a shit-eating grin. Look, I've heard and done all the things you can pull out of your proverbial ass. I was once a Christian who believed in witnessing to EVERYONE. I mean I would blast others who weren't "as good of a Christian as me". Yeah I wasn't a very good Christian but I came to realize that it's not the worst thing in life. I could be Rosie O'Donnell's publicist. I'd rather use sandpaper on my nether regions.

Quote from: "onlyme"anyway, i think we have to realise that God IS God, who has the right to create or destroy life (and worlds) as He wills, and that's why i think it is good to fear God, ie, have a healthy respect and reverence for Him, and so not get too arrogant.  we are all only human after all, and mortal, and vulnerable, and limited both in our understanding and our capabilities.   is it not better to be safe than sorry

.

If you mean 'christians' by 'we' then yeah, but that's trivially true, however obviously false if you're referring to every human on the planet.  First, comes the concept of a god, then the elaboration of his characteristics, then a deduction of his will, desires, commands, etc.  For someone who demands some sort of logical explanation for existence, these steps are rigorous and definitely seperate, and not at all muddled together in a simple realization.

Can we turn the flame-throwers down just a bit? I mean, let's have a little Rodney King, getting along group hug, ok? :)

Oh come on, it's fun. It's like Kill Whitey except not so minority related.

Quote from: "McQ"Can we turn the flame-throwers down just a bit? I mean, let's have a little Rodney King, getting along group hug, ok?

Damn it, I am happy!   :bang:

Quote from: "McQ"Can we turn the flame-throwers down just a bit? I mean, let's have a little Rodney King, getting along group hug, ok?

Speaking as a fellow member (admin hat off):

I realize theists can get a little annoying at times, especially when it seems like they may be implying or claiming they know something about us personally or simply don't get whatever point you're trying to make.  But, it's kinda hard to keep a decent discussion going when reading too much into some of the posts.  Sometimes certain comments may be deserving of a kinda harsh response, just try not turn that response into a flaming session and remember that every member is a real person.  If you don't think you'd say what you are about to post to someone's face...maybe it's going outside the bounds of treating someone with respect.

Also, it is hard to keep a decent discussion going when every few posts by the theist is along the lines of "we just gotta believe because we are only human."  (hint on what to try not to do, onlyme).  So, those from both sides of the debate should think about what may be frustrating/bothering the other and maybe the discussion would go more smoothly.

such a calm voice of reason this mod is...hat back on.

When I 'lol' it's always from a position of kindness.  The 'LMAO', however, is inherently sarcastic and biting.  

again, thanks, McQ, for giving me a fair hearing.  as for Christ, 'damn it, i am happy', i think our own personal happiness should not be the main thing, we may have to 'suffer' for the good of others at times.

again, McQ, you said a personal visit from God would convince you.  well, here is where faith comes into play, i believe.   i think we will all get the panoramic view you describe eventually

maybe i should leave now, as the main admit 'laetus' said earlier that if i was wishing to convert, i should leave.   maybe i should respect that.

what do people think?  i will definitely respect the majority decision

Are you afraid your own doubts will grow if you stay?

Quote from: "onlyme"again, thanks, McQ, for giving me a fair hearing.  as for Christ, 'damn it, i am happy', i think our own personal happiness should not be the main thing, we may have to 'suffer' for the good of others at times.

again, McQ, you said a personal visit from God would convince you.  well, here is where faith comes into play, i believe.   i think we will all get the panoramic view you describe eventually

maybe i should leave now, as the main admit 'laetus' said earlier that if i was wishing to convert, i should leave.   maybe i should respect that.

what do people think?  i will definitely respect the majority decision

Onlyme, you're welcome. As for my vote, I am and have been of the opinion that you are welcome here. I am just a registered user here and don't have a say. I can't speak for anyone else. The opinions here range all over, I'm sure. To me, we were just having a conversation, same as if we were talking in person.

Some want to debate, some want to tweak others. I didn't think you came in to convert or "troll". I do wish people would keep it in mind when they reply to your questions and comments though, that they should speak as if you were right in front of them. Keeps things civil, as they should be.

Again, I'm happy to converse with you.

Eh, typical cut and run. You can't hack it with your views so you want to cut and run. I'm not the admin here but I personally wouldn't give a flying fuck if you stayed or went. You're not trolling and your posts are simply that of bafflement as to why we are atheists.

firstly, BigMac, i dont intend to cut and run, i did say though that i would see what reaction i get from my being here.  actually, i'm not here to convert anybody, i'm not capable of that.  i just thought i'd fight the corner for the faith community.

mommasquid, no, i't not afraid my doubts will grow if i stay

McQ, the 'flaming' doesn't bother me on a 'faith' level, but it does on a personal level.  i dont use bad language in real life myself, but i know that wherever i go it is prevalent, even at work, where i've got to be, but i don't like it.  i dont want to cause offence to anybody, anywhere, anytime, and i hope that people dont offend me, but know that i cant really do anything about it.  

laetus, again, as i said, i'm not here to convert, but i do believe i should be honest and speak my mind.  i don't know what the difference is, if any.  

i will speak my mind.  can you cope with that?  after all, you lot on here speak your minds.  

(when i say 'you lot' i dont mean any offence, by the way)

i think you are all great people.  Really.  and debate doesnt scare me.  i love it.  

by the way, since you are all clever and capable people, i hope you will excuse my puntuation, as i type quicky and am not too bothered about the correct punctuation as long as you can understand me.  

again, i'm not scared by debate, i just thought that you lot might not want me on here.  

i will stay and find out, anyway.

to elaborate on my above point about using swear words.  i know its very common, but to me it just seems pointless, and i avoid it whenever possible.  the reasons are these.  firstly, as a believer, i believe that we will all give an account to God eventually for even each careless word we use, as the bible says.  although i admit that i do other things which are probably more serious, but maybe its just that controlling my tongue is easier to accomplish, and makes me feel like i've at least done something.  another reason that i learned many years ago is that people use swear words to appear 'big' or 'hard', or to fit in with the crowd.  

to me, this is a sign of weakness, not strength.

also, though on my computer, i don't use correct punctuation myself, i see that swearing doesnt make any sense, language wise, in real life.  take the following common, made up example.

i f***ing went to the f***ing shop for a newspaper

i can understand the f***ing shop part more than i can understand the f***ing went part.   it reminds me of star trek, where i read a while ago that the phrase 'boldly go' is incorrect in a grammatical sense, as it should be 'go boldly'

anyway, that's just my rant.  probably about 10 people will read this. maybe 70, i dont know, and they will not take any notice of what i've said anyway.  (do you ever get the feeling that you're wasting your time?) but there it is, just for the record

Well you're from England so wouldn't it be "I went to the Shaggin' store to get a shaggin' newspaper, mate. Pip pip!"

onlyme:  Any theist who comes here is going to want to convert us, that's to be expected.  I had just suggested that you use a little more variety in your replies...which you are doing.  You are, of course, welcome to stay and seem to be trying very hard to be respectful of others.

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For everyone in general:

:arrow: Reminder of rule number 1:  It doesn't just apply to theists.

Respect that onlyme is being as respectful as possible.  We really don't want to add to the stereotype that atheists are all pissed off assholes...do we?

I don't want to have to do it, but will start enforcing the rule with penalties if necessary.  Not everyone is being disrespectful, those who are should know it and do their best to be civil.  I think free speech is very important, but gotta draw a line somewhere to keep this forum from being a complete free for all mess.  If you are unsure of what is considered disrespectful vs respectful, start a thread in the questions area and we'll all discuss where to draw the line.

Quote from: "laetusatheos"onlyme:  Any theist who comes here is going to want to convert us, that's to be expected.  I had just suggested that you use a little more variety in your replies...which you are doing.  You are, of course, welcome to stay and seem to be trying very hard to be respectful of others.

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For everyone in general:

:arrow: Reminder of rule number 1:  It doesn't just apply to theists.

Respect that onlyme is being as respectful as possible.  We really don't want to add to the stereotype that atheists are all pissed off assholes...do we?

I don't want to have to do it, but will start enforcing the rule with penalties if necessary.  Not everyone is being disrespectful, those who are should know it and do their best to be civil.  I think free speech is very important, but gotta draw a line somewhere to keep this forum from being a complete free for all mess.  If you are unsure of what is considered disrespectful vs respectful, start a thread in the questions area and we'll all discuss where to draw the line.

Rather than continue this thread in the wrong posting area, I've responded to this in the forum rules area.

thanks, laetus, for your postings.  i myself am not offended by some peoples postings, these things happen in real life, so why shouldnt they happen in cyber-life?  the general view, i think, is that christians look down on other people, as being less enlightened.  i don't look down on people.  who am i to look down on anybody?  i am no better than anyone else.   i have always been for the 'underdog' - dont get me wrong, i dont include you lot as underdogs, its just that when i see PEOPLE suffering, i want to try and alleviate their sufferings.   for example, in cambodia, the attrocities carried out by the khmer roughe (red brigage) includes a tree, visible today, which still has the teeth of small children implanted in the bark, where 'swines' used to swing childrens heads at full force into the trees.   this is not right.  hitlers troops grabbed children out of their mother's arms and flung them alive into bonfires. the 'christians' of old carried out similar ATTROCITIES.  in my opinion, there is NO justification for taking a man's life.  when we take someones life, we take EVERYTHING he has.  WHO ARE WE, THAT WE THINK WE CAN DO THESE THINGS, WITH IMPUNITY?  we are not put on this planet to do these things!  my philosophy is try to teach people a better way, but if they wont listen, you cant do anything about it, don't harm them.  everybody is precious to someone - their kids, husbands, mothers, themselves, whatever.   who are we to destroy someones life and hope?

we christians get a bad name, in my experience, because we are considered as 'aloof, better than thou, etc.'  we are NO  better than anyone else, if anything, we have a harder time, because we TRY to be better.  we are still subject to the same temptations, sexual, monetary, socially, etc, as anyone else, its just that we TRY to be better in conduct.  is there any harm in that, really, i ask you?

Okay, I'll give you that onlyme. But in reality you are self-inflicting this torment on yourself.

onlyme, I have a hard time reading your posts, not because of their content but because you don't use correct capitalization or punctuation, and you tend to run all of your sentences into one huge block of text.

If your message is important, then the presentation is important, too.  

If you don't think what you have to say is important enough to take the time to present that message clearly, then don't bother.  

That's my two cents (and I don't need change).

Quote from: "onlyme"we christians get a bad name, in my experience, because we are considered as 'aloof, better than thou, etc.'  we are NO  better than anyone else, if anything, we have a harder time, because we TRY to be better.  we are still subject to the same temptations, sexual, monetary, socially, etc, as anyone else, its just that we TRY to be better in conduct.  is there any harm in that, really, i ask you?

There's absolutely no harm in trying to be a better person.  Most atheists also try to better themselves.

The harm of Christianity comes from the many groups who think that their way is the best way because the bible said so, forgetting that not everyone agrees with their translation or maybe doesn't even believe in the bible at all, then try and force their biblical morals and beliefs on others through government.  

I don't really know how it is in your country, but here scientific advancements, which could heal a lot of people, are being delayed (possibly stopped) because some christian groups don't like the idea of stem cell research.  Homosexual citizens are being denied their civil right to marriage because religious groups fight against those rights.  Minority religions and the non-religious are set by the way side while evangelical christian groups try to push their version of creation into the school system.  And, abstinence only education, promoted mainly by christian parents, is adding to an increasing rate of unwed teenage mothers.

To my knowledge, almost all of the stem-cell progress is being made in Europe.

Quote from: "Jassman"To my knowledge, almost all of the stem-cell progress is being made in Europe.

My company is doing quite a bit of stem cell research right here in the good ole US of A, I'm proud to say. Our main facility is in......

Oh, no....I'm not telling. Some fundy will see this and burn the place down! LOL!

(it's somewhere in southern California)

Quote from: "laetusatheos"

Quote from: "onlyme"And, abstinence only education, promoted mainly by christian parents, is adding to an increasing rate of unwed teenage mothers.

And here in the lovely state of Texas, abstinence-based sex ed is a euphemism for non-existant sex ed (at least, in my experience)...I knew several people personally who didn't know the first thing about birth control or where they could get it if their parents were too strict. It's insane. I vaguely knew this girl who actually used the pull-out method as birth control, and was convinced it was just as good as the pill!

Quote from: "MommaSquid"onlyme, I have a hard time reading your posts, not because of their content but because you don't use correct capitalization or punctuation, and you tend to run all of your sentences into one huge block of text.

If your message is important, then the presentation is important, too.  

If you don't think what you have to say is important enough to take the time to present that message clearly, then don't bother.  

That's my two cents (and I don't need change).

ok, i will try to keep it neat in future.

The reason I type as I do is because, just before I got set up on the internet, I was reading a book about it - about chatrooms in particular-  admittedly it was a children's book.   Anyhow, it said that lack of correct punctuation is quite common in chatrooms, and often deliberate, and that it is considered bad manners to correct another user on this point.

So I have lapsed into the habit myself.   Also, I write this way when 'texting', and so do most people I know.

Quote from: "Court"

Quote from: "laetusatheos"And, abstinence only education, promoted mainly by christian parents, is adding to an increasing rate of unwed teenage mothers.

And here in the lovely state of Texas, abstinence-based sex ed is a euphemism for non-existant sex ed (at least, in my experience)...I knew several people personally who didn't know the first thing about birth control or where they could get it if their parents were too strict. It's insane. I vaguely knew this girl who actually used the pull-out method as birth control, and was convinced it was just as good as the pill!

Are you kidding? Growing up in my small town, we had full-fledged sex ed. Hell we learned about labias and hymens and STD's and condoms (they had a room of 11 year old boys putting condoms on this phallic things) and how you can't tell who has AIDS or STD's by just looking at them. I find it ironic that you live in the Big D and didn't receive such education.

Quote from: "Court"I vaguely knew this girl who actually used the pull-out method as birth control, and was convinced it was just as good as the pill!

I've also known people who thought it was a valid form of birth control.  I had to explain to them that pulling out can work but isn't near as effective as condoms nor does it protect them against STDs.  The person didn't understand that sperm could be released prior to ejaculation.

Basically, sex ed here isn't abstinence only in all schools, but they teach it in a way that makes it seem like you are a terrible person if you don't abstain plus don't tell anyone where to get condoms or how they are used.

My church had a better sex ed class than my school...that's sad.  Of coarse, my church's sex ed class was only good because my mom was involved in teaching the class (weird for me at the time) plus the other parent in charge was also fairly liberal.  They demonstrated, using some sort of sex-ed demonstration unrealistic penis, how a condom works.  I can't remember if planned parenthood was mentioned in that class of if it was just something I found out about at a different time from my mom.    Either way, it's really bad when a church does a better job teaching sex-ed than a public school system.

Quote from: "onlyme"ok, i will try to keep it neat in future.

The reason I type as I do is because, just before I got set up on the internet, I was reading a book about it - about chatrooms in particular-  admittedly it was a children's book.   Anyhow, it said that lack of correct punctuation is quite common in chatrooms, and often deliberate, and that it is considered bad manners to correct another user on this point.

So I have lapsed into the habit myself.   Also, I write this way when 'texting', and so do most people I know.

That book was correct about most chat rooms (even though the ones I tend to visit have a lot of users who are picky about spelling and grammar...just because the type of people there).

But, there is a difference between chat rooms and forums.  Chat rooms are programs where everyone is chatting live so the screen scrolls posts as you are sitting there.  Where forums are meant for longer posts that don't get scrolled off the screen.  So, in a chat room each post will be about one or two sentences long and quickly typed...but in a forum the person has time to compose their post and they are often in paragraph format.  

Since large paragraphs can be hard to read, it's common to break them up into smaller blocks.  Capitalization is just helpful in keeping track of where a sentence begins within a block of text.  Spelling and grammar isn't of utmost importance in a forum, but a post filled with such errors tends to not be given as much weight as one which was properly checked.  Basically, proper forum etiquette follows similar rules as if you were writing an informal letter to someone.

I'm not great at spelling and tend to have a lot of typos, so I use the Google toolbar to run a spell check prior to submitting most of my posts.  There are other programs which can do the same.  So, MommaSquid wasn't trying to be rude, things are just a little different in forums than in chat rooms.

Quote from: "laetusatheos"MommaSquid wasn't trying to be rude

I was trying to be helpful, of course!  


(If or when I decide to be rude it will be obvious.)    

Quote from: "laetusatheos"

Quote from: "onlyme"ok, i will try to keep it neat in future.

The reason I type as I do is because, just before I got set up on the internet, I was reading a book about it - about chatrooms in particular-  admittedly it was a children's book.   Anyhow, it said that lack of correct punctuation is quite common in chatrooms, and often deliberate, and that it is considered bad manners to correct another user on this point.

So I have lapsed into the habit myself.   Also, I write this way when 'texting', and so do most people I know.

That book was correct about most chat rooms (even though the ones I tend to visit have a lot of users who are picky about spelling and grammar...just because the type of people there).

But, there is a difference between chat rooms and forums.  Chat rooms are programs where everyone is chatting live so the screen scrolls posts as you are sitting there.  Where forums are meant for longer posts that don't get scrolled off the screen.  So, in a chat room each post will be about one or two sentences long and quickly typed...but in a forum the person has time to compose their post and they are often in paragraph format.  

Since large paragraphs can be hard to read, it's common to break them up into smaller blocks.  Capitalization is just helpful in keeping track of where a sentence begins within a block of text.  Spelling and grammar isn't of utmost importance in a forum, but a post filled with such errors tends to not be given as much weight as one which was properly checked.  Basically, proper forum etiquette follows similar rules as if you were writing an informal letter to someone.

I'm not great at spelling and tend to have a lot of typos, so I use the Google toolbar to run a spell check prior to submitting most of my posts.  There are other programs which can do the same.  So, MommaSquid wasn't trying to be rude, things are just a little different in forums than in chat rooms.

(to be read with tongue in cheek):

Of coarse, laetus, spell chequers don't all ways ketch everything. LOL!

See your pryor post for the "of course/coarse" that your spell cheque mist!
;-)

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "Court"

Quote from: "laetusatheos"And, abstinence only education, promoted mainly by christian parents, is adding to an increasing rate of unwed teenage mothers.

And here in the lovely state of Texas, abstinence-based sex ed is a euphemism for non-existant sex ed (at least, in my experience)...I knew several people personally who didn't know the first thing about birth control or where they could get it if their parents were too strict. It's insane. I vaguely knew this girl who actually used the pull-out method as birth control, and was convinced it was just as good as the pill!

Are you kidding? Growing up in my small town, we had full-fledged sex ed. Hell we learned about labias and hymens and STD's and condoms (they had a room of 11 year old boys putting condoms on this phallic things) and how you can't tell who has AIDS or STD's by just looking at them. I find it ironic that you live in the Big D and didn't receive such education.

Oh, I live in a small suburb around Dallas, so that probably helps. I think it's pathetic. My sexual education was all self-motivated, and that shouldn't happen.

Quote from: "Court"

Quote from: "Big Mac"

Quote from: "Court"

Quote from: "laetusatheos"And, abstinence only education, promoted mainly by christian parents, is adding to an increasing rate of unwed teenage mothers.

And here in the lovely state of Texas, abstinence-based sex ed is a euphemism for non-existant sex ed (at least, in my experience)...I knew several people personally who didn't know the first thing about birth control or where they could get it if their parents were too strict. It's insane. I vaguely knew this girl who actually used the pull-out method as birth control, and was convinced it was just as good as the pill!

Are you kidding? Growing up in my small town, we had full-fledged sex ed. Hell we learned about labias and hymens and STD's and condoms (they had a room of 11 year old boys putting condoms on this phallic things) and how you can't tell who has AIDS or STD's by just looking at them. I find it ironic that you live in the Big D and didn't receive such education.

Oh, I live in a small suburb around Dallas, so that probably helps. I think it's pathetic. My sexual education was all self-motivated, and that shouldn't happen.

Shoot, I was home-schooled by fundies. You know what my sex ed consisted of? "If you have sex before you're married, your wiener will rot and fall off. Not might, it WILL! So you better stay good and virgin until you're married!"

This thread was getting really long and went off topic a while ago.  So, I split it off as an abortion/sexuality thread located here:

http://www.happyatheistforum.com/ftopic112.html (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/ftopic112.html)

What would it take?

Simple question, my answer really doesn't matter to you does it?

What would it take for you to believe in Santa Clause?

Quote from: "SomewhereInND"Simple question, my answer really doesn't matter to you does it?

If the OP is still checking on this thread four and a half years later, I'd say it must matter quite a lot to them.

If after 4 1/2 years the original poster does not understand the obvious answer to his/her question, which has been answered many times, then, my answer or anyone elses answer really doesnt matter does it?

So, let the OP figure out the obvious figure out the obvious answer,   OP, please answer my question...what would it take for you to believe in Santa Clause?

Quote from: "Court"I vaguely knew this girl who actually used the pull-out method as birth control, and was convinced it was just as good as the pill!

I see a problem,  she wasn't in charge of pulling out.

Not sure what makes anyone think the OP is still checking this thread. We haven't seen the OP in years. As far as I can tell, this thread was resurrected because SomewhereinND posted a message that is unclear and kind of non-directional (as in, who the heck is he asking, and why the heck does he say "my answer doesn't really matter?")

the OP doesn't even have an account here anymore...the OP is the reason I no longer delete accounts if people ask me (created sock puppet after asking account to be deleted and it was a huge pain in the ass proving the connecting since it caused me to lose the user associated IP info).  

Even if the OP were still around I wouldn't expect her to understand how to tie a shoe let alone any philosophical idea.

 It was a delight reading a thread from the earliest days of HAF!

Quote from: "McQ"Not sure what makes anyone think the OP is still checking this thread. We haven't seen the OP in years. As far as I can tell, this thread was resurrected because SomewhereinND posted a message that is unclear and kind of non-directional (as in, who the heck is he asking, and why the heck does he say "my answer doesn't really matter?")

You come across as an angry individual,  are you?

My answer didnt matter,  infact I didn't even give my answer.   Others gave obvious answers,  I was trying to help the OP, or anyone else who had the same question.

Instead telling you my opinion, I tried to provide a way for these individuals to answer their own question.  I could have expressed my opinion, but you know what they say about opinions.....oh wait.....maybe you dont......What have you heard about other peoples opinions?

Oh, by the way, I am sorry I resurected this thread,  I didn't know there were rules against that.

Quote from: "SomewhereInND"

Quote from: "McQ"Not sure what makes anyone think the OP is still checking this thread. We haven't seen the OP in years. As far as I can tell, this thread was resurrected because SomewhereinND posted a message that is unclear and kind of non-directional (as in, who the heck is he asking, and why the heck does he say "my answer doesn't really matter?")

You come across as an angry individual,  are you?

What makes you say this? Can you point to anything in my post that indicates anger? You come across as a troll, and it's my job to make sure you aren't. I was simply being straightforward and clear.

Quote from: "SomewhereInND"My answer didnt matter,  infact I didn't even give my answer.   Others gave obvious answers,  I was trying to help the OP, or anyone else who had the same question.

Your post was four years after the last post and it didn't make sense, so I made reference to that. I said that your post was unclear and non-directional, which it was.

Quote from: "SomewhereInND"Instead telling you my opinion, I tried to provide a way for these individuals to answer their own question.  I could have expressed my opinion, but you know what they say about opinions.....oh wait.....maybe you dont......What have you heard about other peoples opinions?

You seem to be under some predisposed impression. Rather than sarcasm, which doesn't work and which causes problems, why don't you just tell me what your issue is?

I would recommend starting over, and being clear in your posts. If you make trollish posts, you will not be understood and you will find the responses less than ideal. Rather than waste any more of my time or anyone else's, I suggest you get back on track and make a sensible post. I suggest you lose the combative, sarcastic attitude as well.

Quote from: "SomewhereInND"Oh, by the way, I am sorry I resurected this thread,  I didn't know there were rules against that.

It's not against the rules but it makes you look very non-observant and strange when you repeatedly attempt to address an OP who's account doesn't even exist anymore...

If you post in a way that makes it appear that you aren't paying attention people are going to think you are acting oddly.

Quote from: "Whitney"It's not against the rules but it makes you look very non-observant and strange when you repeatedly attempt to address an OP who's account doesn't even exist anymore...

If you post in a way that makes it appear that you aren't paying attention people are going to think you are acting oddly.

Resurrecting threads is good and well. However, if the OP is to be addressed, one should read through the thread first to see if any one has already responded with what you want to say. That done, one should present it as his thoughts on the subject, rahter than an answer to the OP. The best way of doing that is, however, copying the text you want to address and quoting it in a new thread.

/End Asmodeans Necromancy for Dummies

McQ, this is getting a little silly.

McQ wrote:...What makes you say this? Can you point to anything in my post that indicates anger?...

anger was too strong of a word for me to use, how about slightkly combative?
When I engaged in this discussiion, it was not my intent to be sarcastic, I was attempting to make people think about their possible answer to the question asked.

McQ wrote:...You come across as a troll...
You seem to be a well rounded and thought ful individual (I said sarcasticaly)

McQ wrote,.Your post was four years after the last post and it didn't make sense, so I made reference to that...
 elliebean brought up the referece to the OP still checking....,  I am sorry I did not confirm elliebeans statement, my bad

McQ wrote,...I said that your post was unclear and non-directional, which it was.
Next time try asking for clarification,   which I tried to do,  but that seemed to make you even more combative (for lack of a better term)

McQ wrote...why don't you just tell me what your issue is...
I was not aware that I had an issue, other then wanting to engage in a discussion, I was not aware that discussions had an expiration date.


McQ wrote...It's not against the rules but it makes you look very non-observant and strange when you repeatedly attempt to address an OP who's account doesn't even exist anymore...
I didn't go looking for this thread,  it was on appeared on a list when I  visited this forum,  like I said, I did not check the date,  but I did think it was worth discussing,  My approach could have been to cram my opinion down someones throat,  I decided to engage the discussion from a different prospective.   And again I didn't bring your issues with the OP crap, talk to elluebean about that.

McQ wrote...If you post in a way that makes it appear that you aren't paying attention people are going to think you are acting oddly.
The approach to discussions that you seem to be use, has been going on since man picked up a club,  I can see where my approach might be odd,  but I think it is time to drop the club, and try something different.  

Sorry I caused you such severe issues.

Quote from: "SomewhereInND"McQ, this is getting a little silly.

McQ wrote:...What makes you say this? Can you point to anything in my post that indicates anger?...

anger was too strong of a word for me to use, how about slightkly combative?
When I engaged in this discussiion, it was not my intent to be sarcastic, I was attempting to make people think about their possible answer to the question asked.

McQ wrote:...You come across as a troll...
You seem to be a well rounded and thought ful individual (I said sarcasticaly)

McQ wrote,.Your post was four years after the last post and it didn't make sense, so I made reference to that...
 elliebean brought up the referece to the OP still checking....,  I am sorry I did not confirm elliebeans statement, my bad

McQ wrote,...I said that your post was unclear and non-directional, which it was.
Next time try asking for clarification,   which I tried to do,  but that seemed to make you even more combative (for lack of a better term)

McQ wrote...why don't you just tell me what your issue is...
I was not aware that I had an issue, other then wanting to engage in a discussion, I was not aware that discussions had an expiration date.


McQ wrote...It's not against the rules but it makes you look very non-observant and strange when you repeatedly attempt to address an OP who's account doesn't even exist anymore...
I didn't go looking for this thread,  it was on appeared on a list when I  visited this forum,  like I said, I did not check the date,  but I did think it was worth discussing,  My approach could have been to cram my opinion down someones throat,  I decided to engage the discussion from a different prospective.   And again I didn't bring your issues with the OP crap, talk to elluebean about that.

McQ wrote...If you post in a way that makes it appear that you aren't paying attention people are going to think you are acting oddly.
The approach to discussions that you seem to be use, has been going on since man picked up a club,  I can see where my approach might be odd,  but I think it is time to drop the club, and try something different.  

Sorry I caused you such severe issues.

Quote from: "SomewhereInND"McQ wrote...It's not against the rules but it makes you look very non-observant and strange when you repeatedly attempt to address an OP who's account doesn't even exist anymore...
I didn't go looking for this thread,  it was on appeared on a list when I  visited this forum,  like I said, I did not check the date,  but I did think it was worth discussing,  My approach could have been to cram my opinion down someones throat,  I decided to engage the discussion from a different prospective.   And again I didn't bring your issues with the OP crap, talk to elluebean about that.

McQ wrote...If you post in a way that makes it appear that you aren't paying attention people are going to think you are acting oddly.
The approach to discussions that you seem to be use, has been going on since man picked up a club,  I can see where my approach might be odd,  but I think it is time to drop the club, and try something different.  

Sorry I caused you such severe issues.

Again, you are not being observant...I AM NOT McQ.

Obviously you are not interested in interacting sincerely here otherwise you'd at least check to make sure you are quoting the right person.

Warning issued, why don't you try to show you are sorry with your actions rather than arguing further.

Quote from: "Whitney"[Again, you are not being observant...I AM NOT McQ.
Obviously you are not interested in interacting sincerely here otherwise you'd at least check to make sure you are quoting the right person.

Warning issued, why don't you try to show you are sorry with your actions rather than arguing further.

Sorry Whitney, I guess I received too many critisizms at once,  and I got lost in it,  I would really like to get back to the subject.

That said, that was a lot of strange shit coming from moderators.

Now for something completely different:
What would It take for me to believe in Jesus?  The answer is the same as for What would it take to believe in Santa.
It takes more then evidence,  it also takes reason.
Santa shows up in the mall every christmas season,  when I was a kid he showed up one christmas eve, and gave me a present,  In the summertime, he drives around town in a red pickup, with personalized plates that say 'Santa', all of which is evidence.   Does that mean I believe Santa is real?  No.

Now, if someone would have engaged me in the discussion, we might have gotten around to the above, much sooner.  Instead, I had to waste a week defending myself against a couple of moderator trolls.

Now I realize that being a moderator sucks,  I have been one in the past.   If you don't like your job, get a different one, don't take it out on people who are trying to discuss something.

i don't know why you thought it would be ok to call moderators and the site owner trolls

This is a warning regarding the following post made by you: viewtopic.php?f=2&p=101055#p101055 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=101055#p101055) .

reason: being uncivl

Could you please split your side topic off of this discussion,   I would like to get back to the subject.
Thank you.

^7 day ban


locking this topic...no one who started it is here anymore.