Hello all,
Over in the current events page, there was some discussion of "God dun me wrong" blaming. Without asking everyone to tell their "why I am an atheist" story (though I'd like to hear those too), I was wondering how others feel about people that call themselves atheist or become atheist because they are upset about their lives. I have a good example. There is a documentary called "The God Who Wasn't There". It starts off about how there is question of whether Jesus existed, then discussed the usual "why people believe', then the "these people are zealots" section, but then it seemed to expose why the documentarian was atheist. It turns out, he did not like his Christian school. So, he spent the last portion of the documentary complaining about his specific school and gave the old bait-and-switch to the dean of students. It was quite disappointing.
So, how do others feel about the "atheists" who only appear to be atheist because they are mad at a god? That is, instead of coming to the conclusion through rational and reasoned thinking, it is more of a "it's not fair!" issue. I feel like they are not long for this feeling and will be theists again.
Quote from: Awolf26 on August 08, 2011, 02:19:07 PM
So, how do others feel about the "atheists" who only appear to be atheist because they are mad at a god? That is, instead of coming to the conclusion through rational and reasoned thinking, it is more of a "it's not fair!" issue. I feel like they are not long for this feeling and will be theists again.
I suppose it depends; there are some who doubtless have anger directed towards God while professing atheism. I would agree that such people are engaging in a form of cognitive contradiction and may well end up returning to their faith.
On the other hand I think there are others who feel legitimate anger at those people and institutions which act and speak in the name of God - and there is no contradiction there. I think sometimes this can be mistaken for an anger with God.
I personally find anger a pretty unhelpful emotion; but sometimes it can be an appropriate response. The teenage girl forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, the homosexual who is told to 'straighten out', the countless victims of senseless religious violence; I can understand their rage.
I don't think it would be rational to think a god doesn't exist simply because it didn't do whatever someone thought it should do. The person would still be an atheist (assuming they weren't still actually mad at god) but I wouldn't have much respect for their reason for being one and would be embarrassed for atheists as a whole if they offered up "i didn't get my way" as an argument against god.
I haven't seen the God Who Wasn't There yet but your review of it makes it sound like I don't need to hurry about seeing it anytime soon.
I think most atheists start off angry, but then have their "ah-ha" moment or realization of how utterly absurd the fairy tales of the bible are versus logic, science and just plain common sense. :/
At least I used to be angry...
Now i'm just annoyed with idiots who don't take action to make this world a better place, but leave their lives in the hands of something non-existent.
I think that those who are angry at god are actually going through a crisis in their faith but still believe in their gods. It can lead to actual atheism, I guess. I don't know if one could apply some form of the Five Stages Of Grief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model) to this.
Quote-Denial — "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening, not to me."
Denial is usually only a temporary defense for the individual. This feeling is generally replaced with heightened awareness of possessions and individuals that will be left behind after death.
-Anger — "Why me? It's not fair!"; "How can this happen to me?"; '"Who is to blame?"
Once in the second stage, the individual recognizes that denial cannot continue. Because of anger, the person is very difficult to care for due to misplaced feelings of rage and envy.
-Bargaining — "I'll do anything for a few more years."; "I will give my life savings if..."
The third stage involves the hope that the individual can somehow postpone or delay death. Usually, the negotiation for an extended life is made with a higher power in exchange for a reformed lifestyle. Psychologically, the individual is saying, "I understand I will die, but if I could just do something to buy more time..."
-Depression — "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die... What's the point?"; "I miss my loved one, why go on?"
During the fourth stage, the dying person begins to understand the certainty of death. Because of this, the individual may become silent, refuse visitors and spend much of the time crying and grieving. This process allows the dying person to disconnect from things of love and affection. It is not recommended to attempt to cheer up an individual who is in this stage. It is an important time for grieving that must be processed.
-Acceptance — "It's going to be okay."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."
In this last stage, the individual begins to come to terms with her/his mortality or that of a loved one.
As penfold pointed out, there is a clear difference between being angry at god and being angry at self appointed representatives of gods. to put into very basic terms, you can't be angry at something you don't believe in in the first place. That's another thing that many theists don't seem to understand very well, and routinely throw around quotes belonging to Chesterton and other authors along the lines of "If there was no god, there would be no atheists", which I find to be utterly ridiculous.
I imagine some people would be annoyed at being played for a fool, believing in a god that's not there.
If you're sold a benevolent god and pay your dues every Sunday and the world doesn't seem benevolent, it could be a tad annoying.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 08, 2011, 11:04:44 PM
I think most atheists start off angry, but then have their "ah-ha" moment or realization of how utterly absurd the fairy tales of the bible are versus logic, science and just plain common sense. :/
At least I used to be angry...
Now i'm just annoyed with idiots who don't take action to make this world a better place, but leave their lives in the hands of something non-existent.
About half the atheists I have come across were never theists. Go to Sweden and there are very few theists. These people didn't start of angry, they may be angry now, but they didn't start that way ;D
These are some good responses. I think, after reading some of your responses, that I must be referring to the people that have turned into "closet theists". I actually asked an "atheist" one time, why she was an atheist. Her response was "what has God ever done for me". It is clear that she actually believes in a god, but denies it because of bitterness. Actually, I think that is the key: Denial.
I usually don't like the terms "deny" or "reject" god when referring to my atheism. It gives a connotation that I am rejecting something that exists. I think that a lot of the "atheists" I am referring to deny or reject god, but pretty much believe that it exists.
That said, I do think this type of "atheism" may lead to more rational atheism.
related blog entry: Devil's Bookmark: Doubting God's Existence, But Angry Nevertheless http://www.religiondispatches.org/books/atheologies/4643/devil%E2%80%99s_bookmark:_doubting_god%E2%80%99s_existence,_but_angry_nevertheless_|_%28a%29theologies_|_/
because I was raised to question superstition I can tell you honestly I have never been an "angry atheist" however
I have been completely pissed off at religious fanatics but that has nothing to do with being pissed off at God ..I can not be pissed at something I have never believed in
so I guess that is an advantage in the way ..being raised to question helped me to not have emotions about something I feel deeply is true
I think that theists or deists or believers of some god, entity, etc, etc, who get angry at that god (a needless or horrific death of a loved one, their fav football team didn't win, as some examples) and suddenly become an "atheist" have succumbed to their emotions. It is plausible, as Sweetdeath mentions, at least in the United States that some of them do have that "AhHA!" moment.
But a person who claims to be an atheist should at least be intellectually honest and seek out WHY they no longer have a belief in their god. I think it is intellectually dishonest to claim atheism due only to a mighty emotional event, whatever the cause of the event.
Never been angry at a god or the idea of one. Religious leaders and organisations really "grind my gears" though and I did go through a short phase of despising the Abraham religions after reading their books and looking at the historical evidence of them.
This is an interesting topic, but I can't really speak from an atheist perspective. When I signed up here, I didn't introduce myself as an atheist, and it makes sense to me that atheists would be put off by someone who became an atheist because they are angry that god is in breach of contract.
When I introduced myself, I declared myself a misotheist. I'm going through a lot of soul searching, and asking questions, exposing myself to perspectives that are christian and atheist. The thing is, I hated the nature of what god is supposed to be when I was very young, felt intruded on and felt my privacy was violated. My personality type is one that despises authority and authority figures, but I can remain cordial, and even fight that tendency and be polite with, say, police officers who I do believe try to do the best they can and mean well. I just don't know about the nature of god. I've tried to make nice, and asked for things, and waited for a response. For about 10 years or so I accepted christianity, but for the longest time I felt like something was off. I get this sense that christians spend a lot of effort coming up with reasons for discrepancies in how their system defines god.
Right now, I'm stuck in a thought feedback loop that circles around the idea of what seems like a double standard. If it's not okay for me, then why is it okay for god? There are so many questions that my mind keeps formulating around this pattern, roughly.
Frankly, I think that atheists have set out a lot of challenges that must be answered responsibly by christians (or better yet, god himself). It's tiresome listening to christians give all the standardized answers to a friend online who has turned away from christianity in a more public fashion than myself; and I scoff or despair at how badly the christians have failed god, and consequently how badly god has failed himself, seemingly. The intellectual, philosophical, moral, and ethical challenges atheists keep bringing up have to be answered, otherwise the whole "god has a plan" and "god works in mysterious ways" is stupid, contemptible. The answers have to make sense in a simple way, as well as in a sophisticated way; so distracted people as me can latch on to the simple meaning, but the really highly intellectual people can examine it and say, "finally, it makes sense."
I think that the notion that christianity offers the promise of a "personal" relationship with god is very dangerous, problematic. It's too easy to become disillusioned by this. It is frankly unbelievable to me. I've tried giving as much of a fair chance as I am capable, but there is no answer. There's this notion of trust; we give trust in the hope that it will be earned, but eventually there comes a time when we have to withdraw that trust in order to protect ourselves. Christians say god knows everything, and he should understand this about trust, and should know every persons limits in regards to how far they are going to extend their trust. And he needs to answer for himself, directly to a person, because it's a personal relationship that is promised. I know one of the christian rhetorical answers: "Sometimes no answer is an answer," and that kind of response leaves me seething! On this planet, not answering is discourteous, neglectful, we as humans tend not to admire this kind of answer; and again I come back to my question, "why is it ok for god, who is supposed to be personally engaged with us, but not me!?" He's not allowed to be shy, either (this society he's allowed to develop tells me I'm not allowed to be shy, even though I am), because he's god and shouldn't have a reason to be shy (by all accounts, he is proud of himself, but would call us boastful if we acted the same way). This is just the tip of the iceberg.
If there is a god, then he doesn't seem to conform to this christian notion of a being a very personally engaging god. It sure seems like he's very different from what people who do like him are saying about him. I don't want to hate him (not healthy), so I have believe in something that is frankly beyond what religious doctrine tries to characterize.
This is where I'm at right now. I won't claim to be an atheist. I'm just trying to figure it out, and I've stopped listening to people who have tried to make spirituality smaller and less meaningful by defining it badly.
Honestly, Tristian Jay, atheists aren't looking for any answer. They just want to live their lives without any religion being involved. :-\
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 11, 2011, 11:39:07 PM
Honestly, Tristian Jay, atheists aren't looking for any answer. They just want to live their lives without any religion being involved. :-\
I know, I just struck a vein of discontent and I couldn't stop myself. I feel spiritually inclined, but I am finding that living my life and getting on with it effectively, and setting aside the bitterness, I need to have religion no longer involved as well (but for different reasons). Like your signature suggests, I'm just trying to figure out what's going to work best. :)
Wow Tristan, that's quite a post. Definitely a different persepctive from mine, which makes it interesting. Two questions: do you still believe in this god?
And have you looked at other non Christian "spiritual" (however you want to define it) philosophies as well?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 12, 2011, 12:07:45 AM
Wow Tristan, that's quite a post. Definitely a different persepctive from mine, which makes it interesting. Two questions: do you still believe in this god?
And have you looked at other non Christian "spiritual" (however you want to define it) philosophies as well?
I find it hard to shake the believe in something powerful and intelligent behind the creation of all things that surround us. I don't want to hate it, or more importantly have unreasonable expectations of it. I can't dispell a certain disliking, though. But I can't go along with what any religion says about it anymore, I feel like they have forfeited all claims to having anything meaningful or worthwhile to say. God, whatever it really is, certainly seems pretty detached from our lives here on Earth; I don't sense help from it, I don't sense it's involvement in the unfolding of circumstances in subtle ways, and I think we need to take responsibility and credit for what we do (it burns me when we should receive all the blame for our faults and yet give credit to something outside of ourselves for great accomplishments that
we worked hard for). I mean, maybe it's all supposed to be a system to facilitate something on a higher dimensional plane, and our presence isn't really noticed or regarded as significant (but we've emerged as a consequence of the way the system was designed, I don't know).
I'm trying not to get carried away! In answer to your other question, I'm casually interested in Buddism, but I haven't looked too deeply into it. It always strikes me as unpretentious and peaceful. Eh, right now I reading and writing my way toward answers, as the universe reveals whatever it's going to about itself. This forum is one place I wanted to explore thoughts, safely away from inside-the-box religious doctrinal thinking. I have a journal which I'm working and writing my way through questions as well.
Post script: I like your signatures, too, and I only read them after I had already posted the text above. Interesting indictment of religion's spiritual-political relationship with humanity in general.
Quote from: Tristan Jay on August 12, 2011, 12:31:10 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 12, 2011, 12:07:45 AM
Wow Tristan, that's quite a post. Definitely a different persepctive from mine, which makes it interesting. Two questions: do you still believe in this god?
And have you looked at other non Christian "spiritual" (however you want to define it) philosophies as well?
I find it hard to shake the believe in something powerful and intelligent behind the creation of all things that surround us. I don't want to hate it, or more importantly have unreasonable expectations of it. I can't dispell a certain disliking, though. But I can't go along with what any religion says about it anymore, I feel like they have forfeited all claims to having anything meaningful or worthwhile to say. God, whatever it really is, certainly seems pretty detached from our lives here on Earth; I don't sense help from it, I don't sense it's involvement in the unfolding of circumstances in subtle ways, and I think we need to take responsibility and credit for what we do (it burns me when we should receive all the blame for our faults and yet give credit to something outside of ourselves for great accomplishments that we worked hard for). I mean, maybe it's all supposed to be a system to facilitate something on a higher dimensional plane, and our presence isn't really noticed or regarded as significant (but we've emerged as a consequence of the way the system was designed, I don't know).
I'm trying not to get carried away! In answer to your other question, I'm casually interested in Buddism, but I haven't looked too deeply into it. It always strikes me as unpretentious and peaceful. Eh, right now I reading and writing my way toward answers, as the universe reveals whatever it's going to about itself. This forum is one place I wanted to explore thoughts, safely away from inside-the-box religious doctrinal thinking. I have a journal which I'm working and writing my way through questions as well.
Post script: I like your signatures, too, and I only read them after I had already posted the text above. Interesting indictment of religion's spiritual-political relationship with humanity in general.
Seneca's quote is one of my favourites, it sums up things very well IMO. It's much easier to see when you're outside the box of religious cultish thinking.
The other day it just struck me just how similar the Abrahamic god is to the Prince as described by Machiavelli. According to him, morals need not even apply to the ruler figure, because they make an inefficient ruler. The personal god of politicians and warlords, I would guess.
I like Epicurus' Riddle as well:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Add how can free will be compatible in that universe and you've got a real mess.
Speaking of mess, that's one reason why I can't see myself believing in a personal god. Projecting my own expectations onto an indifferent universe makes no sense to me. And I've entertained the thought of what it might be like to believe in a personal god quite a few times.
I don't know that much about other spiritual philosophies, because I feel that what's right in front of me is extraordinary enough ;D without having to resort to some other realm of imagination, even if I don't have access to it in its entirety. Reality is way more than the senses can process. I like the idea of pantheism, but see no reason to worship or build churches to the fundamental aspects of nature that grant us our existence. I'd even risk saying that I can truly
know things, with no faith having to be involved, and that means more than any theistic religion can offer. They look small in comparison.
Anyways, I sincerely hope you find something that you feel fits you better, a religion/philosophy/ ideology that gets you nowhere is pointless.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 11, 2011, 11:39:07 PM
Honestly, Tristian Jay, atheists aren't looking for any answer. They just want to live their lives without any religion being involved. :-\
I'm not sure that's true as atheists are so variable, some could well be looking for an answer, just nota theistic/deistic one.
Quote from: Tank on August 12, 2011, 10:15:09 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 11, 2011, 11:39:07 PM
Honestly, Tristian Jay, atheists aren't looking for any answer. They just want to live their lives without any religion being involved. :-\
I'm not sure that's true as atheists are so variable, some could well be looking for an answer, just nota theistic/deistic one.
Really? Maybe it's just me. I don't need an answer or divine meaning to continue living my life. I just want to be with my gf,buy toys and videogames, and mame lots of meaningful friendships. :D
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 12, 2011, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 12, 2011, 10:15:09 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 11, 2011, 11:39:07 PM
Honestly, Tristian Jay, atheists aren't looking for any answer. They just want to live their lives without any religion being involved. :-\
I'm not sure that's true as atheists are so variable, some could well be looking for an answer, just nota theistic/deistic one.
Really? Maybe it's just me. I don't need an answer or divine meaning to continue living my life. I just want to be with my gf,buy toys and videogames, and mame lots of meaningful friendships. :D
Yeah I think there are a lot of atheists that are looking for answers of some kind, they may not be the same thing a theist may be looking for though. Science is a good example of people asking questions and looking for the best possible answers with the evidence that is available.
While not 'looking' for anything in a spiritual sense I keep a keen eye on scientific progress to see what is being discovered and what the current interpretations of what has been discovered tell us about the universe we inhabit.
Quote from: SweetdeathI don't need an answer or divine meaning to continue living my life. I just want to be with my gf,buy toys and videogames, and make lots of meaningful friendships. :D
Agreed. I get a lot of satisfaction from my volunteer work with the disabled, and have made a lot of real friends among them. But I have no need to think in terms of spirituality. These people need helping; I give some help, both sides get satisfaction. It's simply the way humans operate.
Does that sound cold? It's not. You should have seen me at the BBQ last Thursday, helping with the wheelchair dancing; we had a whale of a good time and I came home really happy. Just, I don't look for anything mysterious in it.
Awww, that sounds great, Old git!
I admire anyone who helps folks for the sake of helping. I usually end up in situations where elderly need assisting, yet no one will stop to help. I love stepping in. Makes me feel like a super hero; "no need to fear, Sweetdeath is here!" :D
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 14, 2011, 10:41:12 PM
"no need to fear, Sweetdeath is here!" :D
If you are helping elderly people who may be struggling, this catch phrase may need some tweeking. hahaha ;D
Hmmm, I think you may be right, Awolf! :D :D
Quote from: Awolf26 on August 15, 2011, 10:16:10 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 14, 2011, 10:41:12 PM
"no need to fear, Sweetdeath is here!" :D
If you are helping elderly people who may be struggling, this catch phrase may need some tweeking. hahaha ;D
LOL!
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 12, 2011, 04:11:46 PM
Really? Maybe it's just me. I don't need an answer or divine meaning to continue living my life. I just want to be with my gf,buy toys and videogames, and mame lots of meaningful friendships. :D
I just have to ask: is that "mame" in the Auntie sense? If so, I'm getting a real weird mental image off that.
As for me, the only thing I'm looking is a perfect baked potato with sour cream and chives. That would really hit the spot. And on the serious side, I've known 2 atheists who were angry at god -- they both went back to being theists after awhile. My take was that they were simply theists who finally realized that god wasn't Santa Claus, got mad about it and then got over it but since "atheists are angry at god" is a common belief among some theists they innocently mistook their little mad phase as atheism.
I'm definitely happier now that I'm an atheist than when I was theistic.
I struggled a lot with the inconsistencies between religion/the real world.
Now, no struggle! I don't have to worry about conforming into some kind of "never-really-put-your-finger-on-it" morality and I can focus on a personal, real world, practical sense of ethics. And if I shag up, I don't get to say "Oops! Oh, well. God will forgive me!" I have to try and do better. Because what I do matters. Being an atheist has made me a happier and better person.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 07, 2011, 08:20:09 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 12, 2011, 04:11:46 PM
Really? Maybe it's just me. I don't need an answer or divine meaning to continue living my life. I just want to be with my gf,buy toys and videogames, and mame lots of meaningful friendships. :D
I just have to ask: is that "mame" in the Auntie sense? If so, I'm getting a real weird mental image off that.
As for me, the only thing I'm looking is a perfect baked potato with sour cream and chives. That would really hit the spot. And on the serious side, I've known 2 atheists who were angry at god -- they both went back to being theists after awhile. My take was that they were simply theists who finally realized that god wasn't Santa Claus, got mad about it and then got over it but since "atheists are angry at god" is a common belief among some theists they innocently mistook their little mad phase as atheism.
Whoops! That's actually a stupid typo. I make them a lot on my android keyboard. It's suppose to be "make."