This is what happen in UK and many other countries in Europe and North America. my question is : Are we gonna see Sharia Law take over all around Western World???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN6CHtGGo4g
Sharia (Path to the Source) concerns itself mostly with etiquette of daily routine.
Like the way to worship God, how to greet eachother and there are even recommendations on the way of drinking water.
Basically to enhance the relationship of the individual with God in order to prepare for the meeting with God.
You can't impose the Sharia on non-Muslims, since it's not a pure political ideology.
There are certain laws which are there to guarantee the safety of a Muslim state so the
Muslims can continue doing what they are meant to do; to worship God.
These people are idiots, they don't know what they are talking about and giving at the
same time the media food to publish. And sometimes it ends up with a nutcase killing innocent people to stop the invasion of Islam.
Relax, nothing is going too happen.
Quote from: iSokAnd sometimes it ends up with a nutcase killing innocent people to stop the invasion of Islam.
I think you're referring to the Norwegian massacre there. I don't think we'll see that kind of thing very often in Europe, but these Islamists certainly are alienating the majority population. As people get poorer and more discontented, I fear we may see more open friction.
I'm down for some of those laws to be honest. I mean the sheer number of rapists and child predators that get paroled is sickening. I'm up for some old fashioned stoning in the village center.
Quote from: Medusa on August 08, 2011, 09:32:19 AM
I'm down for some of those laws to be honest. I mean the sheer number of rapists and child predators that get paroled is sickening. I'm up for some old fashioned stoning in the village center.
So you are for the death penalty?
Quote from: Tank on August 08, 2011, 10:32:45 AM
Quote from: Medusa on August 08, 2011, 09:32:19 AM
I'm down for some of those laws to be honest. I mean the sheer number of rapists and child predators that get paroled is sickening. I'm up for some old fashioned stoning in the village center.
So you are for the death penalty?
Yes.
And yes, I have a up close and personal interaction with the complexities of the death penalty.I have a friend currently on death row for killing his parents in a drug stupor. He waited for them to come home from a trip over seas. Then killed both parents executioner's style. I believe the mother only made it through the front door hallway before being forced to kneel to her death. He was high. Apparently he was angry at his father for the way he was handling their drug business together. He's a quiet and friendly guy. I visited him a few times down here in county. But in the end he deserves to pay for his crime.
I was also raped as a child. And I have no problems having those people killed. Except for the fact the crimes were so horrific and I was such a young child (maybe between the ages of 5 to 11) that I have chunks of actual black memory blocks. I can remember up to certain scenes and then it all fades to black. Whatever happened in that blackness...some monsters should pay for with their very lives.
And I also am pro choice. Pretty much I'm up for killing because you want to, need to or are hungry. As long as you are up to pay for the full entire consequence of your actions.
Quote from: OldGit on August 08, 2011, 09:01:18 AM
Quote from: iSokAnd sometimes it ends up with a nutcase killing innocent people to stop the invasion of Islam.
I think you're referring to the Norwegian massacre there. I don't think we'll see that kind of thing very often in Europe, but these Islamists certainly are alienating the majority population. As people get poorer and more discontented, I fear we may see more open friction.
Yes, I was referring to that incident. But your comment shows how your mind is affected by the media without realising.
'Norwegian massacre', because it was done by a non-Muslim. 'Norwegian terrorist/terror strike' if it was done by a Muslim.
The reality is that Muslims in the east are terrified, they see themselves as the victims of a second crusade.
No one can explain why countries like Afghanistan and Iraq were invaded and the reality of the puppet regimes in countries
like Saudi-Arabia. It's only normal to see a response in some way, unfortunately the media is all about making 'hot' news.
Quote from: Medusa on August 08, 2011, 09:32:19 AM
I'm down for some of those laws to be honest. I mean the sheer number of rapists and child predators that get paroled is sickening. I'm up for some old fashioned stoning in the village center.
Sharia punishments are incredible cruel and terrifying. But they are not meant to be executed in reality but only to spread fear.
My uncle works as an architect in Saudi-Arabia so he has a good live. You can basically sleep in a park with all the jewels and necklaces
you can find, without anyone even touching you. (Note that the difference between the wealthy and the poor is far higher because
of the millions immigrants that are coming from countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and so on to work in Saudi).
Compare the crime rates of Saudi-Arabia and other Muslim states (that are peaceful and adhere to the Sharia) with that of the UK.
For example the amount of car thefts in the UK and Saudi-Arabia.
Saudi: 0.1 per 1000
UK: 5.6 per 1000 (Nationmaster.com)
If the government would change it's policy (not neglecting the immigrants for example) and delete the
tribal laws (which gives the royal family power) from it's constitution and fully adhere to the Sharia. Then crime would basically dissapear in Saudi.
The Sharia is not going to work in the UK, nor is it meant to be a political tool.
According to the Sharia: Alcohol is bad, Drugs are bad, Adultery is bad and so on.
Non-Muslims will no doubt frown upon this, if a society actually doesn't see this as wrong then
the Sharia has no place in that society, nor will it ever work.
Quote from: OhCheese on August 07, 2011, 09:13:55 PM
This is what happen in UK and many other countries in Europe and North America. my question is : Are we gonna see Sharia Law take over all around Western World???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN6CHtGGo4g
Never trust Russia Today. This story is pure journo hype.
As I see it they've found four nut-bars given them a microphone and stuck a camera in the room.
I live in Tooting (a predominantly Muslim area of south London). Most of the restaurants don't serve alcohol. However they let you bring your own booze. Funny how that kind of daily compromise never makes it into the media...
edit----
To pass a law in the UK you need a vote in both houses a parliament. As far as I am aware there are fewer than 15 Muslim MPs out of 650 in the house of commons - and none of them has ever stated they want Sharia in the UK. That ratio is even lower in the Lords. The idea that Sharia criminal* law is anywhere close is frankly stupid.
* We do allow some civil and family disputes to be ruled by Sharia law but only with the consent of both parties, and always operating under the 1998 Human Rights Act.
Quote from: iSokThe reality is that Muslims in the east are terrified, they see themselves as the victims of a second crusade.
No one can explain why countries like Afghanistan and Iraq were invaded and the reality of the puppet regimes in countries like Saudi-Arabia. It's only normal to see a response in some way, unfortunately the media is all about making 'hot' news.
That sounds reasonable and I suppose one can understand their fears. Muslims need to understand the fears of the UK urban dweller about the massive influx of them, many of whom refuse to integrate, loudly condemn our way of life and show every sign of wanting to change our society by imposing their own rules.
Is it really a racist abomination for such people to say, "If you hate our way of life so much, why don't you go elswhere?"
Quote from: Medusa on August 08, 2011, 09:32:19 AM
I'm down for some of those laws to be honest. I mean the sheer number of rapists and child predators that get paroled is sickening. I'm up for some old fashioned stoning in the village center.
Well then, you'll love the theocracy of America if it happens. Oh...but wait....you'll have to become a believer just like them and your boyfriend will have to convert or face deportation or death by stoning.
I can understand the death penalty in certain circumstances. But I can't understand the willingness of such a barbaric way of killing someone.
Quote from: OldGit on August 09, 2011, 09:07:42 AM
Quote from: iSokThe reality is that Muslims in the east are terrified, they see themselves as the victims of a second crusade.
No one can explain why countries like Afghanistan and Iraq were invaded and the reality of the puppet regimes in countries like Saudi-Arabia. It's only normal to see a response in some way, unfortunately the media is all about making 'hot' news.
That sounds reasonable and I suppose one can understand their fears. Muslims need to understand the fears of the UK urban dweller about the massive influx of them, many of whom refuse to integrate, loudly condemn our way of life and show every sign of wanting to change our society by imposing their own rules.
I have no problem with people making their own rules for their club as long as the real law is secular. I really don't see how sharia would take over the court systems and there is a very big difference between courts allowing a club to make rules that people voluntarily follow and a court upholding the rulings of the club. I.E.: Nothing wrong with a club excommunicating a member for not following the rules or a club asking a member for dues and the courts shouldn't be involved. There is something wrong with stoning people to death and the courts should prosecute the murderers as murderers regardless of the club rules.
Quote from: OldGitIs it really a racist abomination for such people to say, "If you hate our way of life so much, why don't you go elswhere?"
That in itself, I do not think so. If it's meant against someone standing in a church/mosque/club house/home asking a person to vacate if they don't like the people there, then no. If it's meant against people to have them leave a country that allows other races and/or religions to practice their shit the way they want, then I think it very possibly is racist.
Quote from: Gawen on August 09, 2011, 06:08:30 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 08, 2011, 09:32:19 AM
I'm down for some of those laws to be honest. I mean the sheer number of rapists and child predators that get paroled is sickening. I'm up for some old fashioned stoning in the village center.
Well then, you'll love the theocracy of America if it happens. Oh...but wait....you'll have to become a believer just like them and your boyfriend will have to convert or face deportation or death by stoning.
I can understand the death penalty in certain circumstances. But I can't understand the willingness of such a barbaric way of killing someone.
I'm moving to Egypt to marry my Muslim boyfriend. So....
I can understand thinking it barbaric. The things done to me were barbaric. In fact I have an inate hate of being touched by anyone...even a hug by my own mother. Think long and hard what could cause a person to have a negative physical response to being touched by the people that love her. Think on that a while and then talk to me about the meaning of the word barbaric.
I have to disagree with Sharia Law but in the UK our law comes from one source: A democratically elected government.
I may not like or agree with certain existing laws but there are democratic pathways to argue the toss.
If people choose to come to our country and to make their homes here, I feel it is only right they should accept the laws here.
Quote from: Medusa on August 10, 2011, 05:10:45 AM
Quote from: Gawen on August 09, 2011, 06:08:30 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 08, 2011, 09:32:19 AM
I'm down for some of those laws to be honest. I mean the sheer number of rapists and child predators that get paroled is sickening. I'm up for some old fashioned stoning in the village center.
Well then, you'll love the theocracy of America if it happens. Oh...but wait....you'll have to become a believer just like them and your boyfriend will have to convert or face deportation or death by stoning.
I can understand the death penalty in certain circumstances. But I can't understand the willingness of such a barbaric way of killing someone.
I'm moving to Egypt to marry my Muslim boyfriend. So....
I can understand thinking it barbaric. The things done to me were barbaric. In fact I have an inate hate of being touched by anyone...even a hug by my own mother. Think long and hard what could cause a person to have a negative physical response to being touched by the people that love her. Think on that a while and then talk to me about the meaning of the word barbaric.
Alright. The meaning of 'barbaric' is possessing of or characteristic of a cultural level more complex than primitive savagery but less sophisticated than advanced civilization usually marked as having a bizarre, primitive, or unsophisticated quality.
Slow death by stoning, slow death by hanging and slow death by asphyxiation, clitoral circumcision, subjugation of women (just five examples), what in my worldview are barbaric as described above. Yet you would willingly marry into a religion that has many, if not all of the qualifiers of the definition of 'barbaric'.
What happened to you is/was unfortunate, perverted and wrong. And I understand the concept of revenge. I don't know what to tell you...other than I hope your anger is lessened over time and that with appropriate help your unfortunate psychological problems will go away or become lessened enough to enjoy a hug from those who love you.
Quote from: Gawen on August 10, 2011, 03:30:50 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 10, 2011, 05:10:45 AM
Quote from: Gawen on August 09, 2011, 06:08:30 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 08, 2011, 09:32:19 AM
I'm down for some of those laws to be honest. I mean the sheer number of rapists and child predators that get paroled is sickening. I'm up for some old fashioned stoning in the village center.
Well then, you'll love the theocracy of America if it happens. Oh...but wait....you'll have to become a believer just like them and your boyfriend will have to convert or face deportation or death by stoning.
I can understand the death penalty in certain circumstances. But I can't understand the willingness of such a barbaric way of killing someone.
I'm moving to Egypt to marry my Muslim boyfriend. So....
I can understand thinking it barbaric. The things done to me were barbaric. In fact I have an inate hate of being touched by anyone...even a hug by my own mother. Think long and hard what could cause a person to have a negative physical response to being touched by the people that love her. Think on that a while and then talk to me about the meaning of the word barbaric.
Alright. The meaning of 'barbaric' is possessing of or characteristic of a cultural level more complex than primitive savagery but less sophisticated than advanced civilization usually marked as having a bizarre, primitive, or unsophisticated quality.
Slow death by stoning, slow death by hanging and slow death by asphyxiation, clitoral circumcision, subjugation of women (just five examples), what in my worldview are barbaric as described above. Yet you would willingly marry into a religion that has many, if not all of the qualifiers of the definition of 'barbaric'.
What happened to you is/was unfortunate, perverted and wrong. And I understand the concept of revenge. I don't know what to tell you...other than I hope your anger is lessened over time and that with appropriate help your unfortunate psychological problems will go away or become lessened enough to enjoy a hug from those who love you.
Locking a human being in a cage like a dog for life is not counted as barbaric?
Sharia law might be extremely cruel, but it's doing exactly what it's meant to do.
Out of fear of punishment people will abstain from any form of crime.
Compare the crime of rates of countries like Saudi, Oman, Qatar and UAE with that of US or GB. (See nationmaster.com for yourself)
Note that the Sharia is fractured in these countries, the ruling class (tyrants) fear that an authentic sharia
will end their dominion.
Quote from: iSok on August 10, 2011, 05:05:57 PMOut of fear of punishment people will abstain from any form of crime.
This has been demonstrated as incorrect through various studies (http://www.ncadp.org/index.cfm?content=25).
Quote from: iSokLocking a human being in a cage like a dog for life is not counted as barbaric?
I should say that would depend on one's definition of "civil". If one believes in the death penalty, then that solves much of life in prison. If one doesn't believe in the death penalty, then what choice does one have but to lock up a threat to themselves and/or society?
QuoteSharia law might be extremely cruel, but it's doing exactly what it's meant to do.
Yes, and the UK hung pirates publicly and displayed them in the approaches to many ports of call. The U.S. held public hangings as well. Both were doing exactly what it was meant to do. But it didn't stop pirates not violent crimes, did it?
I can see the lopping off of a mass murder's head. But I can't see the stoning of a young girl who disobeyed her father and saw the man she's in love with anway. I can't see the stoning of a woman or removal of a man's penis for adultery. I can't see the removal of an arm or a hand for stealing a loaf of bread. These punishments ARE barbaric. Sharia law is cruel and barbaric.
QuoteOut of fear of punishment people will abstain from any form of crime.
We all know what a fallacy this is.
QuoteCompare the crime of rates of countries like Saudi, Oman, Qatar and UAE with that of US or GB. (See nationmaster.com for yourself)
Everybody has crime rates. But consider that in the US, less than 1 percent of one percent of atheists are in prison.
QuoteNote that the Sharia is fractured in these countries, the ruling class (tyrants) fear that an authentic sharia
will end their dominion.
I do note that. And I am of the opinion that probably most of those countries exhibit the characteristics of a cultural level more complex than primitive savagery but less sophisticated than advanced civilization usually marked as having a bizarre, primitive, or unsophisticated quality.
Quote from: Davin on August 10, 2011, 07:47:15 PM
Quote from: iSok on August 10, 2011, 05:05:57 PMOut of fear of punishment people will abstain from any form of crime.
This has been demonstrated as incorrect through various studies (http://www.ncadp.org/index.cfm?content=25).
Sharia is not just about applying the death penalty, it's an organic system with multiple levels.
Nit-picking and the system won't work but will crumble, what is obvious in many so called Islamic countries.
The Sharia is trying to prevent crime in the first place, for example:
- Alcohol is strictly forbidden (Human beings should be aware of their actions.)
- Adultery is forbidden within the system, it encourages a healthy environment for children to grow up.
- It demands a fair policy from the government so poverty and corruption will not spread. (A problem in almost every Islamic country).
If you look up the stats of inmates in the United States, how many of them are from broken families?
Despite poverty and corruption, the crime rates in peaceful Sharia states are far and far lower than any Western country.
(See nationmaster.com for statistics).
Frauds (per 1000) -
UK (5.2832)
USA (1.2572)
Saudi (0.0020)
Burglaries (per 1000)UK (13.83)
USA (7.01)
Saudi (0.0004)
Assaults (per 1000)UK (7.46)
USA (7.56)
Saudi (0.1781)I did not add rape statistics, since that is not fair.
QuoteI should say that would depend on one's definition of "civil". If one believes in the death penalty, then that solves much of life in prison. If one doesn't believe in the death penalty, then what choice does one have but to lock up a threat to themselves and/or society?
So you put them in a cell as a last resort? Most inmates see prison as an university, they don't really care whether they are locked up.
Almost 1% of the US population is in prison and most of them don't feel like coming out because they get institutionalised.
QuoteYes, and the UK hung pirates publicly and displayed them in the approaches to many ports of call. The U.S. held public hangings as well. Both were doing exactly what it was meant to do. But it didn't stop pirates not violent crimes, did it?
I have no historical insight or knowledge of that era, so I can't really say anything or compare the two realities.
But the stats above are supporting my point.
QuoteI can see the lopping off of a mass murder's head. But I can't see the stoning of a young girl who disobeyed her father and saw the man she's in love with anway.
That's not Sharia law but tribal stupidity which stains the Sharia. In the case of the young girl, the two are freely allowed to marry.
You'll get stoned if you commit adultery without a proper divorce, man or woman.
Even then, there are very strict conditions, either you have to confess yourself or there have to be four reliable witnesses.
As I said above, the Sharia encourages a healthy environment for children, broken families are not really
helping children to grow up in a save environment.
QuoteI can't see the stoning of a woman or removal of a man's penis for adultery. I can't see the removal of an arm or a hand for stealing a loaf of bread. These punishments ARE barbaric. Sharia law is cruel and barbaric.
There are very strict conditions and it happens rarely and you are not getting your hands removed for a loaf of bread...
You really have to do something out of greed instead of fulfilling basic human needs to make that happen.
QuoteWe all know what a fallacy this is.
See stats above...
QuoteEverybody has crime rates. But consider that in the US, less than 1 percent of one percent of atheists are in prison.
That's very good, but don't feel proud if I say the following.
Most atheists and agnostics are from higher classes, for now atleast. Usually this group of people do not end up
in prison since they are educated, the same could be said of educated Christians or Muslims, it has nothing to do with being
an atheist....
QuoteI do note that. And I am of the opinion that probably most of those countries exhibit the characteristics of a cultural level more complex than primitive savagery but less sophisticated than advanced civilization usually marked as having a bizarre, primitive, or unsophisticated quality.
There's no such thing as human progress or becoming an 'advanced civilization'....
And don't be so racist with seeing your own culture as 'better' than the rest...
Quote from: iSok on August 11, 2011, 12:02:54 AM
- Alcohol is strictly forbidden (Human beings should be aware of their actions.)
- Adultery is forbidden within the system, it encourages a healthy environment for children to grow up.
- It demands a fair policy from the government so poverty and corruption will not spread. (A problem in almost every Islamic country).
If you look up the stats of inmates in the United States, how many of them are from broken families?
Despite poverty and corruption, the crime rates in peaceful Sharia states are far and far lower than any Western country.
(See nationmaster.com for statistics).
Well the forbidding of alcohol is something I could get behind; it is a terrible drug responsible for really shocking amounts of violent and sexual crime. (Though given the deep cultural roots of drinking I am not sure prohibition would ever work in the west)
Adultery laws are more concerning for me. I worry that there is a strong inequality between men and women in the eyes of Sharia (correct me if I am wrong on this point, my understanding is admittedly limited). I would worry that in countries which limit women in terms of public space (ie dress codes, no driving licences etc...) in terms of legal rights (ie rape laws requiring a higher burden of proof for women) reproductive rights, and property ownership; that adultery laws may well be a tool of oppression.
I don't think our system is perfect. In fact driving home through London tonight was a pretty intimidating experience, police on every corner and shops barricading themselves.
However I do think on some issues we are better than countries like Saudi Arabia ('SA'). I think women have more power here. Our immigration laws are fairer (in SA the majority oil workers are illiterate immigrants whose right to stay is linked to their ability to work).
Most importantly we have one law for everyone. State sanctioned violence is as illegal as any other form of violence. In SA troops have recently been sent against unarmed civilians who are protesting. In fact SA troops were even sent to Bahrain to shoot civilians there.
I agree the Western self-perception of cultural and moral superiority is as absurd as it is racist. However just as SA does better in terms of the prevention of crime I would maintain we do better in terms of the rights of individuals and limiting state authority.
Maybe we can try and learn from each other, rather than demagogic alignment with one world view vs the other.
Quote from: penfold on August 11, 2011, 12:47:48 AM
Quote from: iSok on August 11, 2011, 12:02:54 AM
- Alcohol is strictly forbidden (Human beings should be aware of their actions.)
- Adultery is forbidden within the system, it encourages a healthy environment for children to grow up.
- It demands a fair policy from the government so poverty and corruption will not spread. (A problem in almost every Islamic country).
If you look up the stats of inmates in the United States, how many of them are from broken families?
Despite poverty and corruption, the crime rates in peaceful Sharia states are far and far lower than any Western country.
(See nationmaster.com for statistics).
Well the forbidding of alcohol is something I could get behind; it is a terrible drug responsible for really shocking amounts of violent and sexual crime. (Though given the deep cultural roots of drinking I am not sure prohibition would ever work in the west)
Adultery laws are more concerning for me. I worry that there is a strong inequality between men and women in the eyes of Sharia (correct me if I am wrong on this point, my understanding is admittedly limited). I would worry that in countries which limit women in terms of public space (ie dress codes, no driving licences etc...) in terms of legal rights (ie rape laws requiring a higher burden of proof for women) reproductive rights, and property ownership; that adultery laws may well be a tool of oppression.
I don't think our system is perfect. In fact driving home through London tonight was a pretty intimidating experience, police on every corner and shops barricading themselves.
However I do think on some issues we are better than countries like Saudi Arabia ('SA'). I think women have more power here. Our immigration laws are fairer (in SA the majority oil workers are illiterate immigrants whose right to stay is linked to their ability to work).
Most importantly we have one law for everyone. State sanctioned violence is as illegal as any other form of violence. In SA troops have recently been sent against unarmed civilians who are protesting. In fact SA troops were even sent to Bahrain to shoot civilians there.
I agree the Western self-perception of cultural and moral superiority is as absurd as it is racist. However just as SA does better in terms of the prevention of crime I would maintain we do better in terms of the rights of individuals and limiting state authority.
Maybe we can try and learn from each other, rather than demagogic alignment with one world view vs the other.
I certainly share your view Penfold, the problem lies in most Muslim countries in the ridiculous tribal laws and the tyrants ruling in these countries.
As I said in previous posts, SA is very far from perfect, almost every Muslim complains about their attitude.
Their approach to the oil workers, their treatment of women (in Iran, a lot of women work as a taxidriver), their social structure and so on...
But I wanted to make clear that the Sharia, despite the corrupt government is still a good way of keeping crime rates low.
Muslims in the modern world see themselves as strangers because everywhere they turn, they see corruption and nowhere a fair approach of the Sharia.
There's a global movement because of this that desperately wants to set up a fair Muslim state, called a Caliphat, since there
is no fair Muslim state that can be found. Opression is everywhere and Muslims feel like rats in a maze ready to be exterminated.
Tribes, tribal laws, National laws, Sharia laws, barbarism, oppression, ....I'm not going to get into a semantic slogfest over what barbarism means, or the differences between oppression and law.
Suffice it to say that the many, if not the majority of the Western world in comparison considers Islamic Law as barbarous, oppressive, over controlling and as for me, many Islamic countries do not have a highly developed society and culture and/or do not show evidence of moral, ethical, intellectual and humane advancement; hence uncivilised. Is Iran as civilised as, say France?
Societies and cultures change. They have to change or become retarded (if change is extremely slow) or stagnant. It is hoped that society and culture change and develop for the better for as many people as it can. Sharia Law cannot do this and has remained virtually the same for the last 1000 years. Add into that the oppressive attitudes against western music, clothing and things of that nature...
Well, I understand if you do not understand what I'm saying.
I forgot...and I'll only speak for myself. There isn't a racist bone in my body. Humans are their own race.
Quote from: Gawen on August 11, 2011, 01:53:10 AM
Tribes, tribal laws, National laws, Sharia laws, barbarism, oppression, ....I'm not going to get into a semantic slogfest over what barbarism means, or the differences between oppression and law.
Suffice it to say that the many, if not the majority of the Western world in comparison considers Islamic Law as barbarous, oppressive, over controlling and as for me, many Islamic countries do not have a highly developed society and culture and/or do not show evidence of moral, ethical, intellectual and humane advancement; hence uncivilised. Is Iran as civilised as, say France?
Societies and cultures change. They have to change or become retarded (if change is extremely slow) or stagnant. It is hoped that society and culture change and develop for the better for as many people as it can. Sharia Law cannot do this and has remained virtually the same for the last 1000 years. Add into that the oppressive attitudes against western music, clothing and things of that nature...
Well, I understand if you do not understand what I'm saying.
I forgot...and I'll only speak for myself. There isn't a racist bone in my body. Humans are their own race.
Too be honest Gawen, I admire the west's integrity and honesty, atleast that of certain individuals...
But what I really don't like is western culture: Mass consumer culture.
I would hardly call it a rich culture if I have to be honest...
It's spreading like cancer under the cloak of 'Civilization' and it's influence on the environment and on human beings
is devastating. Eventually the tumor will kill the body and it'll be too late.
This sums it up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmbkfTiLQ58
Quote from: iSok on August 08, 2011, 02:01:57 PM
Quote from: OldGit on August 08, 2011, 09:01:18 AM
Quote from: iSokAnd sometimes it ends up with a nutcase killing innocent people to stop the invasion of Islam.
I think you're referring to the Norwegian massacre there. I don't think we'll see that kind of thing very often in Europe, but these Islamists certainly are alienating the majority population. As people get poorer and more discontented, I fear we may see more open friction.
Yes, I was referring to that incident. But your comment shows how your mind is affected by the media without realising.
'Norwegian massacre', because it was done by a non-Muslim. 'Norwegian terrorist/terror strike' if it was done by a Muslim.
The reality is that Muslims in the east are terrified, they see themselves as the victims of a second crusade.
No one can explain why countries like Afghanistan and Iraq were invaded and the reality of the puppet regimes in countries
like Saudi-Arabia. It's only normal to see a response in some way, unfortunately the media is all about making 'hot' news.
Quote from: Medusa on August 08, 2011, 09:32:19 AM
I'm down for some of those laws to be honest. I mean the sheer number of rapists and child predators that get paroled is sickening. I'm up for some old fashioned stoning in the village center.
Sharia punishments are incredible cruel and terrifying. But they are not meant to be executed in reality but only to spread fear.
My uncle works as an architect in Saudi-Arabia so he has a good live. You can basically sleep in a park with all the jewels and necklaces
you can find, without anyone even touching you. (Note that the difference between the wealthy and the poor is far higher because
of the millions immigrants that are coming from countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and so on to work in Saudi).
Compare the crime rates of Saudi-Arabia and other Muslim states (that are peaceful and adhere to the Sharia) with that of the UK.
For example the amount of car thefts in the UK and Saudi-Arabia.
Saudi: 0.1 per 1000
UK: 5.6 per 1000 (Nationmaster.com)
If the government would change it's policy (not neglecting the immigrants for example) and delete the
tribal laws (which gives the royal family power) from it's constitution and fully adhere to the Sharia. Then crime would basically dissapear in Saudi.
The Sharia is not going to work in the UK, nor is it meant to be a political tool.
According to the Sharia: Alcohol is bad, Drugs are bad, Adultery is bad and so on.
Non-Muslims will no doubt frown upon this, if a society actually doesn't see this as wrong then
the Sharia has no place in that society, nor will it ever work.
Are you kidding me?? What about women can't drive there? what about people can't walk in streets in pray time?? I am from Middle East btw so I know everything about Islam, maybe some people believe you because they never been in Islamic country but not me, I know what is Sharia Law and I know how it works, It is most bad law in the world, Women can't go out without man, women can't speak free, women gonna be like nothing under sharia law, and kills homosexual and kills anyone leave Islam and kill anyone again Islamic though. Baby as I told you I am from Islamic background and I know how Muslim thinking.
Btw you talking about KSA there is no much of crime or something, Nooooooooooo Really??? Hahahahaha a lot of bad things happen but in doors, a lot of horrible things happen in KSA and it is in doors, everybody in Middle East knows what happen in KSA. but it is like Don't ask don't tell. that how things work there.
NO TO SHARIA LAW. NO TO SHARIA LAW. NO TO SHARIA LAW AND I WILL DO ALL WHAT I CAN DO TO MAKE THE WORLD SEE THE TRUTH BELIEVE ME, NO ONE MORE DANGER THEN EX MUSLIM
Quote from: Gawen on August 10, 2011, 03:30:50 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 10, 2011, 05:10:45 AM
Quote from: Gawen on August 09, 2011, 06:08:30 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 08, 2011, 09:32:19 AM
I'm down for some of those laws to be honest. I mean the sheer number of rapists and child predators that get paroled is sickening. I'm up for some old fashioned stoning in the village center.
Well then, you'll love the theocracy of America if it happens. Oh...but wait....you'll have to become a believer just like them and your boyfriend will have to convert or face deportation or death by stoning.
I can understand the death penalty in certain circumstances. But I can't understand the willingness of such a barbaric way of killing someone.
I'm moving to Egypt to marry my Muslim boyfriend. So....
I can understand thinking it barbaric. The things done to me were barbaric. In fact I have an inate hate of being touched by anyone...even a hug by my own mother. Think long and hard what could cause a person to have a negative physical response to being touched by the people that love her. Think on that a while and then talk to me about the meaning of the word barbaric.
Alright. The meaning of 'barbaric' is possessing of or characteristic of a cultural level more complex than primitive savagery but less sophisticated than advanced civilization usually marked as having a bizarre, primitive, or unsophisticated quality.
Slow death by stoning, slow death by hanging and slow death by asphyxiation, clitoral circumcision, subjugation of women (just five examples), what in my worldview are barbaric as described above. Yet you would willingly marry into a religion that has many, if not all of the qualifiers of the definition of 'barbaric'.
What happened to you is/was unfortunate, perverted and wrong. And I understand the concept of revenge. I don't know what to tell you...other than I hope your anger is lessened over time and that with appropriate help your unfortunate psychological problems will go away or become lessened enough to enjoy a hug from those who love you.
Now I could go on and counteract what you have stated and show you the misinformation of your generalizations. But we both know that would be me chatting away to a wall. And I'd rather not. We have very different views of things. So I will just say this..
I was born a barbarian. ;)
Quote from: OhCheese on August 11, 2011, 04:22:37 AM
Btw you talking about KSA there is no much of crime or something, Nooooooooooo Really??? Hahahahaha a lot of bad things happen but in doors, a lot of horrible things happen in KSA and it is in doors, everybody in Middle East knows what happen in KSA. but it is like Don't ask don't tell. that how things work there.
What is KSA?
Quote from: Medusa
Now I could go on and counteract what you have stated and show you the misinformation of your generalizations. But we both know that would be me chatting away to a wall. And I'd rather not. We have very different views of things.
So this is your definition of "due diligence"?
QuoteSo I will just say this..
I was born a barbarian. ;)
You were born an atheist and with no knowledge of barbarism. What changed?
Never mind about answering. It was a rhetorical question from a wall.
Quote from: iSok on August 11, 2011, 12:02:54 AM
Quote from: Davin on August 10, 2011, 07:47:15 PM
Quote from: iSok on August 10, 2011, 05:05:57 PMOut of fear of punishment people will abstain from any form of crime.
This has been demonstrated as incorrect through various studies (http://www.ncadp.org/index.cfm?content=25).
Sharia is not just about applying the death penalty, it's an organic system with multiple levels.
Nit-picking and the system won't work but will crumble, what is obvious in many so called Islamic countries.
The Sharia is trying to prevent crime in the first place, for example:
- Alcohol is strictly forbidden (Human beings should be aware of their actions.)
Yes, here in the U.S. we have no idea what would happen if we passed some kind of federal law that would prohibit alchohol... oh wait... Long story short: it increased the amount of crime.
Quote from: iSokIf you look up the stats of inmates in the United States, how many of them are from broken families?
How many? How many are atheists? Hardly any. I guess the point of looking up the statistics is to show that being an atheist is better than sharia law?
Quote from: iSokDespite poverty and corruption, the crime rates in peaceful Sharia states are far and far lower than any Western country.
(See nationmaster.com for statistics).
Frauds (per 1000) -
UK (5.2832)
USA (1.2572)
Saudi (0.0020)
Burglaries (per 1000)
UK (13.83)
USA (7.01)
Saudi (0.0004)
Assaults (per 1000)
UK (7.46)
USA (7.56)
Saudi (0.1781)
While that's all cute, let's look at other countries without sharia law as well as fewer capital punishments to make sure we're not cherry picking statistics (which you are).
Japan vs. Suadi Arabia (http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Japan/Saudi-Arabia/Crime) Suadi Arabia has fiftteen times the capital punishment for being just slightly better.
Finland vs. Suadi Arabia (http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Finland/Saudi-Arabia/Crime) No capital punishments for Finland and over all Saudi Arabia is just slightly better. you may also notice that Finland has 27 manslaughters and Saudi Arabia has 53... Good thing that sharia law is preventing people from kiling eachother, otherwise Saudi Arabia might have the out of control killing that is going on in Finland.
Switzerland vs. Saudi Arabia (http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Saudi-Arabia/Switzerland/Crime) Look at that, no sharia law and fewer murders per capita with a larger population. How do they even manage a larger population like that where people are murdering less, without capital punishment and without sharia law?
Iceland vs. Saudi Arabia (http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Iceland/Saudi-Arabia/Crime)Wow, look at that! Much much fewer crimes, no sharia law...
Seriously though iSok, we could compare this all day with every country that doesn't have government mandated sharia law. What all this really points to is that people commit fewer crimes as the percentage of religious people gets smaller... on average. Cherry picking the US and the UK when there are so many other causes to describe the crimes is not effective. You provided two countries, and guess what, the US still issues capitol and other extreme punishments for crimes... and they still don't prevent people from commiting them. Any one remember a poor little thirteen year old girl getting sued for millions of dollars for downloading a few songs? Have extreme punishments like that stopped piracy? Definitely not. Digital piracy is even higher than before those punishments were issued (especially in Suadi Arabia for some reason).
Quote from: iSokI did not add rape statistics, since that is not fair.
Oh I agree that it's not fair, not when it's damn near impossible for a woman to even be considered as raped in Saudi Arabia. Requireing a minimum of four witnesses for a woman being raped even when there is much better evidence (like DNA evidence), does make comparing rape statistics between the countries kind of useless. I'm sure that any country that required four witnesses, for a rape to be considered a rape no matter what other evidence is provided, would drop the rape statistic to almost zero.
Putting my mod hat on for a moment.
This thread is getting a little heated and in some places a little personal, not surprising given the highly emotive nature of the subject matter, but please take a look at your next post and try to ensure it is as objective and impersonal as it should.
Chris
I'm not going to get into the details of my personal distaste for sharia but the main problem with it in my opinion is that it will never work the way particular Muslims hope it would due to three things: First, in the Islamic world or ummah there are many different interpretations of what sharia entails so unless the entire populace come from the same view point there will be dispute on what sharia is. Second, Islam (and all other linear thinking religions) seems to forget the multifarious nature of humanity, sharia attempts to enforce divine laws upon people for being who they are and therefore would always be an undercurrent of hate towards the system. Third, there is no single example of sharia working effectively for any sustained periods of time, the Qur'an doesn't show examples of it making the world a better place due to these teachings, in my honest opinion it actually shows that war/civil unrest is likely to occur if they are attempted to be thrust upon a country.
Sharia has its positives and negatives like every other political system and is flawed just like them. What gets me is why do people want sharia law to become prevalent in western and eastern society when they could just up sticks and leave to a country that is more to there taste politically and culturally.
Quote from: Davin on August 11, 2011, 05:16:03 PM
Quote from: iSok on August 11, 2011, 12:02:54 AM
Quote from: Davin on August 10, 2011, 07:47:15 PM
Quote from: iSok on August 10, 2011, 05:05:57 PMOut of fear of punishment people will abstain from any form of crime.
This has been demonstrated as incorrect through various studies (http://www.ncadp.org/index.cfm?content=25).
Sharia is not just about applying the death penalty, it's an organic system with multiple levels.
Nit-picking and the system won't work but will crumble, what is obvious in many so called Islamic countries.
The Sharia is trying to prevent crime in the first place, for example:
- Alcohol is strictly forbidden (Human beings should be aware of their actions.)
Yes, here in the U.S. we have no idea what would happen if we passed some kind of federal law that would prohibit alchohol... oh wait... Long story short: it increased the amount of crime.
Quote from: iSokIf you look up the stats of inmates in the United States, how many of them are from broken families?
How many? How many are atheists? Hardly any. I guess the point of looking up the statistics is to show that being an atheist is better than sharia law?
Quote from: iSokDespite poverty and corruption, the crime rates in peaceful Sharia states are far and far lower than any Western country.
(See nationmaster.com for statistics).
Frauds (per 1000) -
UK (5.2832)
USA (1.2572)
Saudi (0.0020)
Burglaries (per 1000)
UK (13.83)
USA (7.01)
Saudi (0.0004)
Assaults (per 1000)
UK (7.46)
USA (7.56)
Saudi (0.1781)
While that's all cute, let's look at other countries without sharia law as well as fewer capital punishments to make sure we're not cherry picking statistics (which you are).
Japan vs. Suadi Arabia (http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Japan/Saudi-Arabia/Crime) Suadi Arabia has fiftteen times the capital punishment for being just slightly better.
Finland vs. Suadi Arabia (http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Finland/Saudi-Arabia/Crime) No capital punishments for Finland and over all Saudi Arabia is just slightly better. you may also notice that Finland has 27 manslaughters and Saudi Arabia has 53... Good thing that sharia law is preventing people from kiling eachother, otherwise Saudi Arabia might have the out of control killing that is going on in Finland.
Switzerland vs. Saudi Arabia (http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Saudi-Arabia/Switzerland/Crime) Look at that, no sharia law and fewer murders per capita with a larger population. How do they even manage a larger population like that where people are murdering less, without capital punishment and without sharia law?
Iceland vs. Saudi Arabia (http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/Iceland/Saudi-Arabia/Crime)Wow, look at that! Much much fewer crimes, no sharia law...
Seriously though iSok, we could compare this all day with every country that doesn't have government mandated sharia law. What all this really points to is that people commit fewer crimes as the percentage of religious people gets smaller... on average. Cherry picking the US and the UK when there are so many other causes to describe the crimes is not effective. You provided two countries, and guess what, the US still issues capitol and other extreme punishments for crimes... and they still don't prevent people from commiting them. Any one remember a poor little thirteen year old girl getting sued for millions of dollars for downloading a few songs? Have extreme punishments like that stopped piracy? Definitely not. Digital piracy is even higher than before those punishments were issued (especially in Suadi Arabia for some reason).
Quote from: iSokI did not add rape statistics, since that is not fair.
Oh I agree that it's not fair, not when it's damn near impossible for a woman to even be considered as raped in Saudi Arabia. Requireing a minimum of four witnesses for a woman being raped even when there is much better evidence (like DNA evidence), does make comparing rape statistics between the countries kind of useless. I'm sure that any country that required four witnesses, for a rape to be considered a rape no matter what other evidence is provided, would drop the rape statistic to almost zero.
What's the obsession with atheists somehow being better people then the rest of mankind? Atheism is now prevalent among the intellectuals and within a few
decades it will spread out so the common man will also be an atheist. Only then we can see whether atheism truly enhances society.
To compare them now is a huge statistical flaw, since it has not spread widely. Intellectuals don't end up in prison usually, whether they are believers or
non-believers. Once again atheism and agnosticism are now prevalent among the intellectuals but that will change within a few decades.
You made a huge mistake in your statistics Davin, I didn't cherry pick. I just compared the UK (Europe) and the USA.
In your stats you are looking at the total amount of crime and not at percentage.See the statistics once again, this time I'll compare Finland with Saudi.
Car theftSaudi: 0.2 per 1,000 people
Finland: 3.1 per 1,000 people
FraudsSaudi: 0.002 per 1,000 people
Finland: 2.9 per 1,000 people
JailsSaudi: 0.001 per 1,000 people
Finland: 0.01 per 1,000 people
MurderSaudi: 0.001 per 1,000 people
Finland: 0.01 per 1,000 people
Saudi-Arabia scores everywhere 10 times lower or even more, especially in murder.
The same counts for all the other countries you listed.
I didn't add rape statistics, since that is almost equal to zero due to the fact that
women are covered up and less likely to be assaulted and there it wouldn't be fair to compare the two.
To Davin and to all the other's here who get emotional of this, there's no reason for that.
People should stop worrying about Muslims coming here and chopping everyone into pieces, I as a Muslim will not agree
with a Sharia law in the West, it simply will not work as it's intended for Muslims like I explained earlier.
The handful of people that shout these slogans are mostly idiots with no understanding of Islam and they are laughed
after by the majority of Muslims.
But it's absolutely wrong to say that we are barbarians with no civilization and no conscience, then I'm afraid
that you are very wrong.
Quote from: iSok on August 11, 2011, 07:11:50 PMWhat's the obsession with atheists somehow being better people then the rest of mankind?
I have no obsession with this, it's just what the data shows.
Quote from: iSokAtheism is now prevalent among the intellectuals and within a few
decades it will spread out so the common man will also be an atheist. Only then we can see whether atheism truly enhances society.
Or we could compare the countries where atheists are much more prevalent to countries where religious folk are more prevalent.
Quote from: iSokTo compare them now is a huge statistical flaw, since it has not spread widely.
Which reasoning would also apply to Sharia Law. Honestly: even with just the prohibition of alchohol, we already have a huge amount of evidence that, that would more than not work in the U.S..
Quote from: iSokIntellectuals don't end up in prison usually, whether they are believers or
non-believers. Once again atheism and agnosticism are now prevalent among the intellectuals but that will change within a few decades.
I'm not sure what you're saying here, but I sure do hope you're not trying to say that atheists are smarter on average than religious people.
Quote from: iSokYou made a huge mistake in your statistics Davin, I didn't cherry pick. I just compared the UK (Europe) and the USA.
In your stats you are looking at the total amount of crime and not at percentage.
See the statistics once again, this time I'll compare Finland with Saudi.
Car theft
Saudi: 0.2 per 1,000 people
Finland: 3.1 per 1,000 people
Frauds
Saudi: 0.002 per 1,000 people
Finland: 2.9 per 1,000 people
Jails
Saudi: 0.001 per 1,000 people
Finland: 0.01 per 1,000 people
Murder
Saudi: 0.001 per 1,000 people
Finland: 0.01 per 1,000 people
Saudi-Arabia scores everywhere 10 times lower or even more, especially in murder.
The same counts for all the other countries you listed.
The point was that extreme punishments do not deter actions:
Executions (per capita) [Japan]0.05 executions per 1 million [Suadi Arabia]1.1 executions per 1 million
22 times more capital punishments than Japan. If Sharia Law prevents crimes, then we should see that Japan has around 20 times more crime than Saudi Arabia, so let's see if that holds up:
Jails (per capita) [Japan]0.001 per 1,000 people [Saudi Arabia]0.001 per 1,000 people
Huh, they're equal and Japan does not have 20 times more jails.
Manslaughters (per capita) [Japan]0.004 per 1,000 people [Saudi Arabia]0.001 per 1,000 people
Huh, only 4 times more manslaughters and not 20 times more.
Prisoners > Per capita [Japan]54.0 per 100,000 people [Saudi Arabia]110.0 per 100,000 people
Wow, not only is it not 20 times more prisoners, it's less than half the amount of prisoners, maybe this Sharia Law increases the amount of crimes committed.
Software piracy rate [Japan] 23% [Saudi Arabia] 51%
Also not 20 times more, it's less than half.
It was funny how you claimed you weren't cherry picking then skipped right over my first example to Finland:
Murders > per 100,000 people [Swiss] 2.9 [Saudi Arabia] 3.2
Prisoners > Per capita [Swiss] 72.0 per 100,000 people [Saudi Arabia]110.0 per 100,000 people
Software piracy rate [Swiss] 25% [Saudi Arabia] 51%
Manslaughters [Iceland] 0 [Saudi Arabia] 53 (does one really need to compare against the per capita of zero?)
Prisoners > Per capita [Iceland] 40.0 per 100,000 people [Saudi Arabia] 110.0 per 100,000 people
Prisoners > Per capita [Finland] 71.0 per 100,000 people [Saudi Arabia] 110.0 per 100,000 people
Software piracy rate [Finland] 25% [Saudi Arabia] 51%
All this statistics fun aside:
The huge error you're committing is comparing crimes across different legal systems. For a clear example: we can get into the rape problem between say, the U.S. and Saudi Arabia. In order to get a conviction in the U.S. all one needs is evidence. What one needs in Saudi Arabia is four different people that saw the rape happening. Which system do you reasonably think is going to let a lot of rapists go unpunished, let alone even have a rape victim attempt to accuse their rapist? Do you see how one might find that rape could go unseen in an environment with such unreasonable requirements for conviction? I mean how often does a person rape someone in front of four people? This makes it a completely unreasonable comparison across legal systems. And all it shows is that not very many people in Suadi Arabia rape people infront four witnesses. How many rapes are committed infront of three or fewer witnesses? No one knows because this data is not shown.
Quote from: iSokI didn't add rape statistics, since that is almost equal to zero due to the fact that
women are covered up and less likely to be assaulted and there it wouldn't be fair to compare the two.
I think it's more than that, it's also that it's virtually impossible for a rape victim to get their rapist charged by requiring four witnesses. Having this kind of requirement in any legal system would reduce the amount of rapists charged and recorded, but would allow more rape because it's very unlikely that a rapist would be punished.
Quote from: iSokTo Davin and to all the other's here who get emotional of this, there's no reason for that.
You're talking to the wrong guy about being emotional, I am virtually emotionless.
Quote from: iSokPeople should stop worrying about Muslims coming here and chopping everyone into pieces, I as a Muslim will not agree
with a Sharia law in the West, it simply will not work as it's intended for Muslims like I explained earlier.
The handful of people that shout these slogans are mostly idiots with no understanding of Islam and they are laughed
after by the majority of Muslims.
I was just showing you the error in saying that punishment prevents crime, when scientific, peer reviewed studies have shown that that is false.
Quote from: iSokBut it's absolutely wrong to say that we are barbarians with no civilization and no conscience, then I'm afraid
that you are very wrong.
Maybe this should be directed at who had stated this instead of at me.
lol Davin, you accused me of cherry picking and now you are finding the lowest stats of every country on every crime level
to ensure yourself that Saudi will always sink low. (you ignore car thefts in Japan for example)
I hope that we are both adults and that there's no need to respond to every line like it's a game, it's a waste of time.
Reason I skipped to Finland was because you typed a few long lines behind the statistics, I assumed you it was your strongest appeal.
As for Japan, car theft and frauds are still far and far lower in SA. The execution rate is higher but that's because you can get killed
for offending the King in SA, which has nothing to do with the Sharia.
As I mentioned earlier that the situation in SA is not really well, so you won't see zero crime rate.
But surely lower than most western countries and if SA changes it's policy (like reducing poverty and corruption)
crime rates will surely drop to zero. The west doesn't have to be afraid of the Sharia, it'll never be introduced here.
Quote from: iSok on August 11, 2011, 10:24:08 PM
lol Davin, you accused me of cherry picking and now you are finding the lowest stats of every country on every crime level
to ensure yourself that Saudi will always sink low. (you ignore car thefts in Japan for example)
You showed two countries where Suadi Arabia rates would be lower in comparison, I just chose four countries that didn't have Sharia Law as a legal system. I don't even know if they are the lowest, all I know is that they don't have Sharia Law.
Quote from: iSokI hope that we are both adults and that there's no need to respond to every line like it's a game, it's a waste of time.
The reason I reply this way is so that one can be sure which part of what you said I am responding to. Instead of me typing out, "when you said..." I can just quote exactly what you said and respond to it. It's not a game, it's a discussion.
Quote from: iSokReason I skipped to Finland was because you typed a few long lines behind the statistics, I assumed you it was your strongest appeal.
Don't assume.
Quote from: iSokAs for Japan, car theft and frauds are still far and far lower in SA.
Car thefts are only like 10 times lower in Saudi Arabia than in Japan, frauds are more yes, but the biggest thing is that less than half the per capita are imprisoned in Japan compared Saudi Arabia. Which means that in a country that has less harsh punishments, there are fewer criminals: thereby proving my point that extreme punishments do not prevent crimes (and would suggest that extreme punishments encourage crimes).
Quote from: iSokThe execution rate is higher but that's because you can get killed
for offending the King in SA, which has nothing to do with the Sharia.
Yet another problem with you comparing crimes and punishment across legal systems, aye? Which is why I originally cited a link that contained references to several peer reviewed studies. You just ignored them and went off on quoting statistics.
Quote from: iSokAs I mentioned earlier that the situation in SA is not really well, so you won't see zero crime rate.
But surely lower than most western countries and if SA changes it's policy (like reducing poverty and corruption)
crime rates will surely drop to zero.
Pure speculation, not to mention that in these statements you mention that a deterence to crime would be reducing poverty and corruption and not increasing the intensity of punishment. If what you claimed were true, one would only need to increase the punishment in order to reduce crime rates to zero.
Quote from: iSokThe west doesn't have to be afraid of the Sharia, it'll never be introduced here.
I certainly hope not.
QuoteI didn't add rape statistics, since that is almost equal to zero due to the fact that
women are covered up and less likely to be assaulted and there it wouldn't be fair to compare the two.
I know this is largely besides the argument that is occurring here, but I couldn't help but respond to this. It is fairly well documented that men do not rape women because "they can't control" their lust or any such thing. It is an act of social dominance that has relatively little to do with a man's access to sex. It also has little to do with how a woman is dressed (unless you take into account clothing as a cue for social status or potential vulnerability, not just how sexually revealing it is). I can provide articles supporting these statements if anyone would like.
It will always be hypothetical, because there's no way to properly study it, but I would be willing to bet that the rape of marginalized women in Muslim countries is much higher than advocates of Sharia law would like to admit is possible.
Edit: I realize this may open up a whole other kettle of fish, but I find any law that advocates for women cover up "for their own good" to be inherently sexist. I'm not familiar enough with it myself enough to say for certain that I think that's what Sharia law entails, but I've heard it used as a defense and I think it is pretty horrible.
Quote from: Davin on August 11, 2011, 11:07:41 PM
Quote from: iSok on August 11, 2011, 10:24:08 PM
lol Davin, you accused me of cherry picking and now you are finding the lowest stats of every country on every crime level
to ensure yourself that Saudi will always sink low. (you ignore car thefts in Japan for example)
You showed two countries where Suadi Arabia rates would be lower in comparison, I just chose four countries that didn't have Sharia Law as a legal system. I don't even know if they are the lowest, all I know is that they don't have Sharia Law.
Quote from: iSokI hope that we are both adults and that there's no need to respond to every line like it's a game, it's a waste of time.
The reason I reply this way is so that one can be sure which part of what you said I am responding to. Instead of me typing out, "when you said..." I can just quote exactly what you said and respond to it. It's not a game, it's a discussion.
Quote from: iSokReason I skipped to Finland was because you typed a few long lines behind the statistics, I assumed you it was your strongest appeal.
Don't assume.
Quote from: iSokAs for Japan, car theft and frauds are still far and far lower in SA.
Car thefts are only like 10 times lower in Saudi Arabia than in Japan, frauds are more yes, but the biggest thing is that less than half the per capita are imprisoned in Japan compared Saudi Arabia. Which means that in a country that has less harsh punishments, there are fewer criminals: thereby proving my point that extreme punishments do not prevent crimes (and would suggest that extreme punishments encourage crimes).
Quote from: iSokThe execution rate is higher but that's because you can get killed
for offending the King in SA, which has nothing to do with the Sharia.
Yet another problem with you comparing crimes and punishment across legal systems, aye? Which is why I originally cited a link that contained references to several peer reviewed studies. You just ignored them and went off on quoting statistics.
Quote from: iSokAs I mentioned earlier that the situation in SA is not really well, so you won't see zero crime rate.
But surely lower than most western countries and if SA changes it's policy (like reducing poverty and corruption)
crime rates will surely drop to zero.
Pure speculation, not to mention that in these statements you mention that a deterence to crime would be reducing poverty and corruption and not increasing the intensity of punishment. If what you claimed were true, one would only need to increase the punishment in order to reduce crime rates to zero.
Quote from: iSokThe west doesn't have to be afraid of the Sharia, it'll never be introduced here.
I certainly hope not.
I'm tired of this discussion Davin, you win.
@DeterminedJuliet,
Agreed, that certainly would be hard to test, I'm not really familiar with the matter.
QuoteSo this is your definition of "due diligence"?
I did my due diligence. It's not my job to do it for you. And I'm not here to convince you to change your ways at all. I have listened and I have disagreed. But I am not in any way invalidating your beliefs here. At some point we just can discuss our sides without the need for the other to understand and/or agree. There is no need for me to convince you of what I know. It's not like I get a passing grade at the end of it. If you sincerely want to know where I get my point of view from, you will ask and listen. If you sincerely don't, then there would be no point for me to babble on, que no?
QuoteYou were born an atheist and with no knowledge of barbarism. What changed?
The honest answer? I was introduced to barbarism at an early age. About 4 years of age.
Fraud is probably so low in Saudi Arabia because the accused simply bribes that authorities not to prosecute them. Corruption is endemic in Saudi society. British Aerospace have been paying the Saudi royal family hundreds of millions of dollars to buy military contracts for the Tornado bomber. When the serious fraud squad tried to investigate this they were warned off as a 'matter of national security'. It's not a surprise then that Saudi's bought the Typhoon fighter and that to meet the delivery schedule RAF fighters are being delivered late!
I think we can all probably agree... Sharia law = bad. Shakira law = AWESOME!
Quote from: fester30 on August 12, 2011, 10:44:37 AM
I think we can all probably agree... Sharia law = bad. Shakira law = AWESOME!
I <3 you
Damn I missed this juicy thread being away on holiday (though it was nice to be on holiday!)
Just thought I might add a bit to the argument against Sharia law, and particularly against any suggestion that Saudi Arabia is a place that should be held up in any way as an example of a civilised land with good laws. There are few countries in the world where your life would be more unpleasant as an atheist or non-Salafi Muslim. Blasphemy and apostasy are still 'crimes' that can carry the death sentence in Saudi Arabia, along with other such 'criminal acts' as homosexuality, drug use, witchcraft (!) and actively promoting any religion other than Islam. It may have a lower reported rate of murder, assualt or theft than the US or UK but it's still a nasty little country with some very unpleasant laws and very few freedoms (particularly if you're a woman). It also actively promotes anti-Semitism, homophobia, anti-Western sentiment and hardline Islam around the world.
Government censorship is rife in Saudi Arabia, websites that promote gay rights, feminism, and religions other than Islam are actively blocked (I imagine this forum probably is too). Cinemas are also banned , along with live television (very hard to censor!) Personally I can live with a higher crime rate if it also means I have the freedom to enjoy my life as best I can, and think and say what I like (particularly about religion, royalty or government) without being beaten, jailed and possibly executed!
I'm sure plenty of people have already seen it, but this was an interesting show screened on the BBC last year about Islamic schools in the UK and in particular Saudi state sponsored schools that teach the Saudi national curriculum, which includes such important lessons as comparing Jews to apes, stating that Jews and Christians are the enemy of Muslims, and teaching that the appropriate punishment for homosexuality is death;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN3eKN-ybG8
http://www.hudson.org/files/pdf_upload/saudi_textbooks_final.pdf