Hello James.
I think there is a connection between Buddhism and meditation, because I used to be Buddhist. But Atheists? Not really...
Hmm...
One common pre-modern, pre-atheist, way to try to understand subjectivity or consciousness was to assume the existence of a soul. This assumption was based on a belief-system. Atheism do not investigate the riddle of consciousness by explanations that could be considered supernatural but with the framework of the scientific model. Meditation is the most useful tool there is to subjectively observe various states of consciousness. Telescopes and microscopes are useful for big and small physical objects. Meditation is the most effective tool to phenomenologically observe the mind subjectively, with great depth clarity and detail.
Using technology like fMRI (Functional magnetic resonance imaging), and EEG we can see how the brain processes subjective states that a skilled meditator easily can produce. This gives a lot of valuable data about how well-being is produced. Its a trainable skill. Certain states of happiness (that btw produces very specific neurocorrelates) is by persons who traditionally practiced in a religious setting refered to as something mysterious or supernatural. For a atheist this is of course not a necessary belief. Atheists like Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris has practiced meditation for a long time.
A secular non-supernatural non-belief based naturalist life-philosophy would be one that would pay interest to meditation (subjective reality) as much as it is interested in ethics (the interpersonal), and the science of nature (objective reality).
This is my 5 cents anyway... :)
Greg
Quote from: The Royal Gregory James on July 30, 2011, 06:06:13 PM
Meditation is the most effective tool to phenomenologically observe the mind subjectively, with great depth clarity and detail.
There is no Atheism.
The only requirement to be labelled as an Atheist is to have a personal lack of belief in god/s
I have never meditated but I don't necessarily agree with your bold assertion that you have stated above.
The mind is conceptual only, if you could observe the mind you would only be getting highlevel conceptual data without clarity and detail.
hello The Royal Gregory James,
Meditation is something I have practiced for quite a while, simply because I was curious and found it works at calming the mind and really beneficial when solving problems and relieving stress.
I tried meditating, but kept getting distracted. I also fail to see the correlation between the two.
Regardless, welcome to the boards.
I really started meditating about a year ago. Actually I was not inspired by a Buddhist text, but the Chinese Daoist Zhuangzi who talks of a practice of 'sitting in oblivion'.
I tend to sit on a cushion, cross legged, hands folded in my lap, eyes open. I then try and focus exclusively on something; breathing is a good focus point; sometimes forming a clear motionless image in the mind helps. One method I have tired recently is letting myself be aware of all my perceptions while trying not to focus on any one in particular. I try and do this for between 15 and 45 mins a day.
I have no metaphysical baggage about it. I do not think I am accessing a 'true self' or some deep metaphysical realm; though I agree with T R G J that the neurology of meditation is interesting and deserves serious study.
Since doing it regularly, I have found that my attention span is longer, I have become a better listener, I have become kinder. It has even improved my sex life. Most importantly I am happier.
In short; it works for me.
I do breathing exercises because I know it calms me whenever I get stressed. Yay, oxygen to my brain! :)
Surprisingly there is a small group of Satanists that have Buddhist tendencies as well.
I can't meditate to save my life. I have Bi-Polar. There is no calming the misfires in my brain. I'm always in constant analysis or sitting with lists in my head.
Quote from: Medusa on August 01, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
I have Bi-Polar. There is no calming the misfires in my brain. I'm always in constant analysis or sitting with lists in my head.
I wouldn't necessarily give up. Meditation is hard to begin with. The first dozen or so times I had a job convincing myself I was doing anything other than wasting my time. It was only after a few weeks of regular practice that I began to get something out of it.
As for Bi-polar. Meditative and mindfulness practises have become a fashionable tool help people who suffer as you do (C.B.T. folk love it) - my old therapist moonlighted as a Zen instructor.
I have a severely Bi-polar friend (in and out of institutions for most of his life), he is Catholic and uses prayer (as well as the Lithium). While I have no faith in prayer itself, I think the fact he starts each day sitting quietly and focusing really helps him keep some balance.
edit---------------
http://bipolarmeditation.blogspot.com/ (http://bipolarmeditation.blogspot.com/) - one Bi-polar sufferer who has found meditation to be helpful.
I take time to clear my head and not think...but actually meditating ...maybe when I light candles and watch them flicker for a while..with an empty mind..perhaps that is close?
Quote from: penfold on August 01, 2011, 10:17:35 AM
Quote from: Medusa on August 01, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
I have Bi-Polar. There is no calming the misfires in my brain. I'm always in constant analysis or sitting with lists in my head.
I wouldn't necessarily give up. Meditation is hard to begin with. The first dozen or so times I had a job convincing myself I was doing anything other than wasting my time. It was only after a few weeks of regular practice that I began to get something out of it.
As for Bi-polar. Meditative and mindfulness practises have become a fashionable tool help people who suffer as you do (C.B.T. folk love it) - my old therapist moonlighted as a Zen instructor.
I have a severely Bi-polar friend (in and out of institutions for most of his life), he is Catholic and uses prayer (as well as the Lithium). While I have no faith in prayer itself, I think the fact he starts each day sitting quietly and focusing really helps him keep some balance.
edit
---------------
http://bipolarmeditation.blogspot.com/ (http://bipolarmeditation.blogspot.com/) - one Bi-polar sufferer who has found meditation to be helpful.
Thank you for the link! Maybe I'll give it another try. I'm currently participating in Ramadan (to support the fiance) I figured I wasn't going to do the praying thing. But I can give this meditation thing another shot.
As someone who has done social scientific research on secular mindfulness meditation, many find it very therapeutic and most certainly does not need to be religious in any sense. There is definitely scientific evidence of its mind changing effects. The only problem I see with it is, the amount one must practice to see the benefits is high and time consuming. Most often, the research consists of fairly well-to-do practitioners.
Yes, it is used in CBT with some success (Linehan, 1993). However, if you have a diagnosed disorder and want to use it in conjunction with regular treatment, I would suggest seeking the assistance of a trained mindfulness practitioner. Some people have found the early stages disturbing and that would be something to discuss with a therapist.
That is just my opinion. I'm not on the clinical side of psychology, but I have been published on the topic.
Quote from: Awolf26 on August 04, 2011, 05:03:30 PM
As someone who has done social scientific research on secular mindfulness meditation, many find it very therapeutic and most certainly does not need to be religious in any sense.
[...]
... I have been published on the topic
Hi Awolf26,
Any chance of linking a copy of your article on this? I find the whole topic fascinating, and no longer being at university have a devil of a time finding academic texts.
Actually I find the 'time consuming' nature of meditation one of its great assets. I have noted in myself an increased patience and attention span. I was wondering if that was something you looked at in your research? The trouble I have is that my experiences are merely anecdotal, so I would love to know if this effect is one reported by others.
I agree that meditation and mindfulness practitioners in the West tend to live on the wealthier side of the tracks, however that is not the case in the East, where meditation is used by people from all walks of life. Perhaps if meditation becomes more accepted in the secular West we would see less of a class divide; something to hope for anyway...
Cheers.
penfold,
I will work on how to get a copy linked here. My publication is rather specific and mostly correlational. Regardless, we find that trait mindfulness mediates the relationship between neuroticism and impulsivity. That is, as trait levels of mindfulness (which can be increased by practiced meditation) increases, the relationship between neuroticism and impulsivity decreases, we assume because of increased attention. Increased attention is definitely a benefit of mindfulness. Here is a link to Brown & Ryan's paper on mindfulness and trait mindfulness:
http://www.kirkwarrenbrown.vcu.edu/wp-content/pubs/Brown%20&%20Ryan%20JPSP%202003.pdf
If you want to learn more about the effects of mindfulness meditation more clearly, I suggest you check out Jon Kabat-Zinn. Lately, he is more of a practitioner than scientist, but he is still heavily published. http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~pgoldin/Buddhism/MBSR2003_Kabat-Zinn.pdf
@ Awolf26
Thank you :)
Why must there be a need to go inward and 'subjectively' search the mind to calm or find yourself? I have never understood this when so many other things can be done outwardly to calm or analyze oneself.
Quote from: Gawen on August 07, 2011, 02:34:31 PM
Why must there be a need to go inward and 'subjectively' search the mind to calm or find yourself? I have never understood this when so many other things can be done outwardly to calm or analyze oneself.
I don't think meditation is about an inward search; nor for that matter is it about analysing oneself. If anything self-analysis is one of the most troublesome distractions when trying to meditate. The object is to be present and aware but without engaging critical or intellectual faculties.
Having said that if outward actions help you then fine. We should be pluralists about this, what works for me may not work for you and vice versa.
Quote from: penfold on August 07, 2011, 02:53:54 PM
Quote from: Gawen on August 07, 2011, 02:34:31 PM
Why must there be a need to go inward and 'subjectively' search the mind to calm or find yourself? I have never understood this when so many other things can be done outwardly to calm or analyze oneself.
I don't think meditation is about an inward search; nor for that matter is it about analysing oneself. If anything self-analysis is one of the most troublesome distractions when trying to meditate. The object is to be present and aware but without engaging critical or intellectual faculties.
Having said that if outward actions help you then fine. We should be pluralists about this, what works for me may not work for you and vice versa.
But...but...but...why in the world would one wish to voluntarily give up their critical, intellectual faculties? And why go the route of trying to do this for an hour or so? Why not just take a shroom, thereby gaining several hours of intellectual freedom?
It all seems counter productive and counter intuitive to me.
A shroom like in super Mario? 8D
Quote from: Gawen on August 07, 2011, 03:37:19 PM
Quote from: penfold on August 07, 2011, 02:53:54 PM
Quote from: Gawen on August 07, 2011, 02:34:31 PM
Why must there be a need to go inward and 'subjectively' search the mind to calm or find yourself? I have never understood this when so many other things can be done outwardly to calm or analyze oneself.
I don't think meditation is about an inward search; nor for that matter is it about analysing oneself. If anything self-analysis is one of the most troublesome distractions when trying to meditate. The object is to be present and aware but without engaging critical or intellectual faculties.
Having said that if outward actions help you then fine. We should be pluralists about this, what works for me may not work for you and vice versa.
But...but...but...why in the world would one wish to voluntarily give up their critical, intellectual faculties? And why go the route of trying to do this for an hour or so? Why not just take a shroom, thereby gaining several hours of intellectual freedom?
It all seems counter productive and counter intuitive to me.
Intuition and imagination are also in the scope of human capabilities. One can suffer from 'analysis paralysis' a point where logic overcomes the ability to make the irrational mental jump that takes one from a state of confusion to understanding in a way that rational deductions can't. We are all ignorant of more things than we know, the sum total of human knowledge is so vast that no one person could possibly know everything, therefore there are times when ones knowledge base cripples one's intellectual capacities and there are also times when existing solutions/processes are not valid ways to solve a problem. In these cases letting our 'neural net' explore the irrational can (and I use the word advisedly) come up with a solution that our logical/rational thought processes may not. This is exactly what happens sometimes when one dreams. Keeping your mind in a straight jacket is not always a good thing.
Quote from: Tank
Intuition and imagination are also in the scope of human capabilities.
I can agree with that.
QuoteOne can suffer from 'analysis paralysis' a point where logic overcomes the ability to make the irrational mental jump that takes one from a state of confusion to understanding in a way that rational deductions can't.
I haven't been in a situation whereby
over thinking something has paralyzed my ability to make a decision. I would think that people who suffer from something like this have cognitive difficulties. At any road, coming to such an impasse, all one needs do is talk to someone? Ask advice? Opinions?
QuoteWe are all ignorant of more things than we know, the sum total of human knowledge is so vast that no one person could possibly know everything, therefore there are times when ones knowledge base cripples one's intellectual capacities and there are also times when existing solutions/processes are not valid ways to solve a problem. In these cases letting our 'neural net' explore the irrational can (and I use the word advisedly) come up with a solution that our logical/rational thought processes may not. This is exactly what happens sometimes when one dreams. Keeping your mind in a straight jacket is not always a good thing.
Of all the different logical and rational ways to make a decision or seek advice, opinion and/or knowledge to make that decision, the willingly shutting down of cognition to look into the Ouija board of the mind is exactly what theists do. They ask God. Unless I am missing the point, I see no real difference in that and "exploring the irrational" through meditation.
Quote from: Gawen on August 07, 2011, 06:46:56 PM
Quote from: Tank
We are all ignorant of more things than we know, the sum total of human knowledge is so vast that no one person could possibly know everything, therefore there are times when ones knowledge base cripples one's intellectual capacities and there are also times when existing solutions/processes are not valid ways to solve a problem. In these cases letting our 'neural net' explore the irrational can (and I use the word advisedly) come up with a solution that our logical/rational thought processes may not. This is exactly what happens sometimes when one dreams. Keeping your mind in a straight jacket is not always a good thing.
Of all the different logical and rational ways to make a decision or seek advice, opinion and/or knowledge to make that decision, the willingly shutting down of cognition to look into the Ouija board of the mind is exactly what theists do. They ask God. Unless I am missing the point, I see no real difference in that and "exploring the irrational" through meditation.
Ah! But the thing is this that theists always end up in an irrational place. If you or I were to go off on a meditative moment and just let our minds wander we'd come back with the seed of an idea that we can then address in a logical and rational manner. Some seeds would be discarded and some nurtured.
When I go into a company to do an analysis project I do my level best to clear my mind of all previous work and just listen and absorb. I don't build a structure I just loosly archive what I find and ask lots of questionsand listen lots. I then just consider all I've been told and go back and ask more questions. In due course I get a 'feel' for what is going on and then I test this 'feel' with more questions. I let the knowledge lead where it will. In due course I'll start asking specific questions and testing ideas and when these start to work I'll start gathering data and building my analytical database. I treasure the freedom of 'not thinking' at the begining of the process.
Quote from: Tank
Ah! But the thing is this that theists always end up in an irrational place.
Excellent point! I overlooked it.
QuoteIf you or I were to go off on a meditative moment and just let our minds wander we'd come back with the seed of an idea that we can then address in a logical and rational manner. Some seeds would be discarded and some nurtured.
You see, this is where I differ, and perhaps I'm lacking for it as well. But you come back in the quote below:
QuoteWhen I go into a company to do an analysis project I do my level best to clear my mind of all previous work and just listen and absorb.
Yes. To clear the mind. That is one thing whereas meditation is another. And that is where I differ.
QuoteI don't build a structure I just loosly archive what I find and ask lots of questionsand listen lots. I then just consider all I've been told and go back and ask more questions. In due course I get a 'feel' for what is going on and then I test this 'feel' with more questions. I let the knowledge lead where it will. In due course I'll start asking specific questions and testing ideas and when these start to work I'll start gathering data and building my analytical database. I treasure the freedom of 'not thinking' at the begining of the process.
This is what I do. But I don't consider it "meditation"...at least in the classic sense.
Quote from: Gawen on August 07, 2011, 07:49:08 PM
Quote from: Tank
Ah! But the thing is this that theists always end up in an irrational place.
Excellent point! I overlooked it.
QuoteIf you or I were to go off on a meditative moment and just let our minds wander we'd come back with the seed of an idea that we can then address in a logical and rational manner. Some seeds would be discarded and some nurtured.
You see, this is where I differ, and perhaps I'm lacking for it as well. But you come back in the quote below:
QuoteWhen I go into a company to do an analysis project I do my level best to clear my mind of all previous work and just listen and absorb.
Yes. To clear the mind. That is one thing whereas meditation is another. And that is where I differ.
QuoteI don't build a structure I just loosly archive what I find and ask lots of questionsand listen lots. I then just consider all I've been told and go back and ask more questions. In due course I get a 'feel' for what is going on and then I test this 'feel' with more questions. I let the knowledge lead where it will. In due course I'll start asking specific questions and testing ideas and when these start to work I'll start gathering data and building my analytical database. I treasure the freedom of 'not thinking' at the begining of the process.
This is what I do. But I don't consider it "meditation"...at least in the classic sense.
Well I wouldn't consider it 'meditation' either and as I haven't tried meditation yet meybe I should ;)
Quote from: Tank on August 07, 2011, 07:54:29 PM
Quote from: Gawen on August 07, 2011, 07:49:08 PM
Quote from: Tank
Ah! But the thing is this that theists always end up in an irrational place.
Excellent point! I overlooked it.
QuoteIf you or I were to go off on a meditative moment and just let our minds wander we'd come back with the seed of an idea that we can then address in a logical and rational manner. Some seeds would be discarded and some nurtured.
You see, this is where I differ, and perhaps I'm lacking for it as well. But you come back in the quote below:
QuoteWhen I go into a company to do an analysis project I do my level best to clear my mind of all previous work and just listen and absorb.
Yes. To clear the mind. That is one thing whereas meditation is another. And that is where I differ.
QuoteI don't build a structure I just loosly archive what I find and ask lots of questionsand listen lots. I then just consider all I've been told and go back and ask more questions. In due course I get a 'feel' for what is going on and then I test this 'feel' with more questions. I let the knowledge lead where it will. In due course I'll start asking specific questions and testing ideas and when these start to work I'll start gathering data and building my analytical database. I treasure the freedom of 'not thinking' at the begining of the process.
This is what I do. But I don't consider it "meditation"...at least in the classic sense.
Well I wouldn't consider it 'meditation' either and as I haven't tried meditation yet meybe I should ;)
Honestly, Tank, I'd rather go flying or shooting or ride my bike to clear my mind. Not that flying or shooting or motorcycle riding is conducive in themselves to a solution I'm looking for, but I know you've had the times when you're nowhere connected to a problem and whatever it is you're doing at the moment, a solution pops up? Flying, shooting and riding my bike are what I call Brain Draino. It works for me and I feel it more productive than possibly sitting like a pretzel and chanting. I do know this much, I'm having fun draining my brain.
I say it again; it works for me. If meditating works for others, who am I to say otherwise? Whatever blows up your bridge, I always say.
Well, I don't always say that as I just made it up...*chucklin*
Quote from: Gawen on August 07, 2011, 03:37:19 PM
But...but...but...why in the world would one wish to voluntarily give up their critical, intellectual faculties? And why go the route of trying to do this for an hour or so? Why not just take a shroom, thereby gaining several hours of intellectual freedom?
It all seems counter productive and counter intuitive to me.
Its not about 'giving up' one's critical or intellectual faculties at all. They are still there when you stop meditating. Meditation is not about working things out, or trying to acquire knowledge (though adopting such a peaceful mindset can lead to insight at times).
Meditation is about learning to be happy. It is about living well, not about discerning truths. When evaluating meditative and mindfulness practices one should look at the
effects it has on the person.
The 17th Century Zen scholar Man-An said of the regular practitioner:
"Concentration of right mindfulness is a state of absorption that is in oneself twenty-four hours a day, but one does not even know it consciously. Even though you work all day, you do not get tired out, and even if you sit alone or stand silently for a long time, you to not get bored."To me it is the results of meditation and mindfulness that are important. As I said earlier the reasons I practice are:
Quote from: penfold on July 31, 2011, 11:31:56 PM
Since doing it regularly, I have found that my attention span is longer, I have become a better listener, I have become kinder. It has even improved my sex life. Most importantly I am happier.
As for mushrooms....
I spent many years experimenting with entheogenics. I came to three conclusions:
1) MDMA* is a much nicer
and more forgiving drug than any "true" hallucinogenic.
2) There is no deep truth slumbering in these drugs. (Beyond the admittedly awesome revelation as to the plasticity of our perceptions)
3) There is a risk you can really fuck yourself up. My own experimentation came to an end after a horrendous experience on psilocybin mushrooms, the psychological scars of which took me a couple of years, and a course of anti-depressants, to really get over.
Still, I would never advocate against their use; but do take care.
--------
*Remember kids: If you ever "accidentally" take MDMA or ecstasy DRINK THE AMOUNT OF WATER YOU NORMALLY WOULD. Not too much not too little. If you follow that rule this drug is pretty safe.
Well, penfold (love that moniker - I'm a Dangermouse fan), it harms no one...and you're happier for it. That's all that counts.