Happy Atheist Forum

I don't know where the proper place to post this question is, so I'll try here, since it invloves pseudoscience. I'm curious to know how far peoples' beliefs extend within the realm of science and its bizarro world counterpart, pseudoscience. I know this is an Atheist forum, and many of the members, like myself, reject the notion of a god, God, Jebus, etc.

But in other forums in which I participate, I've found people who reject Christianity, for instance, but accept ESP, paranormal phenomena, pseudoscience (like free energy machines, Velikovskyism, magnet therapy).

Wanted to test the water here. I do not believe that ESP exists. Neither do I believe in any paranormal claims, like telekinesis, ghosts, poltergeists, etc. Same goes for E.T. visiting. Life elsewhere in the cosmos? Yes. Little greys, greens and the like visiting Earth? Not even remotely. Uri Geller? A crappy magician.

What kinds of things do you all hold true or bogus?

I share your opinion on everything you've listed so far.

No ESP, ghosts, perpetual motion machines, etc...

Not one person has ever demonstrated ESP in a situation where it was impossible to cheat. There are many alternate and more logical explanations for the ghost phenomenon. I could keep going down the list...

The almost unimaginable size of the universe makes it fairly likely that there is other life outside of the earth. It is probably so far away though as to be irrelevant to us.

James Randi has an outstanding offer of a $1 million prize for anyone able to demonstrate any sort of paranormal abilities of any sort, under obervable conditions.  So far, nobody has made it past the preliminary screening...go figure.
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html)

I don't believe in any of the things you listed.  

ESP and telekinesis would be cool powers to have.  And the ability to fly like Superman.

Quote from: "Chris"James Randi has an outstanding offer of a $1 million prize for anyone able to demonstrate any sort of paranormal abilities of any sort, under obervable conditions.  So far, nobody has made it past the preliminary screening...go figure.
http://www.randi.org/research/index.html (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html)

Ah... couldn't remember who it was. He was mentioned briefly on the Bullshit! episode taking on ESP.

i'm not sure what i believe about these things you list, i dont know enough to make an informed decision.

there are certainly some very puzzling things though

Quote from: "Jassman"Ah... couldn't remember who it was. He was mentioned briefly on the Bullshit! episode taking on ESP.

He has been a master debunker for many years.  He is also a magician, which is how Penn and he first got to know each other.

Quote from: "Chris"

Quote from: "Jassman"Ah... couldn't remember who it was. He was mentioned briefly on the Bullshit! episode taking on ESP.

He has been a master debunker for many years.  He is also a magician, which is how Penn and he first got to know each other.

Good thing he wasn't a fisherman for a living because then he would be a masterbaiter. (sorry, couldn't help myself!)

I have some great videos of Randi, some going back years. He's been a hero of mine ever since I saw him on the Tonight Show, with Johnny Carson. Back in olden times. :-)

Here's a link to a great Randi Multimedia page.
 
http://www.reitstoen.com/randi.php (http://www.reitstoen.com/randi.php)

There are also, on the same site, links to other Freethought multimedia folks, such as Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer.

Yes!!  that's where I first saw him!

I'm an atheist and a skeptic as well.  I have yet to see any credible evidence for such things as were listed.

well, I have seen some strange things in my time. Don't know how to explain them though.  The jury's still out on that, in my opinion.  I've seen more than one ghost, though I don't believe in ghosts as such, as dead people returning to haunt mankind. I know what I saw, though.

I'm baffled and confused by what i've experienced, and will probably continue to be until I can maybe find out the answers someday.  I think, unless you have experienced such things, you are too ready to dismiss them as hallucinations, etc.  I wasnt on drugs at the time.  I know what I saw.  Maybe you too will encounter such things later in life, maybe when you least expect it.  Don't discount the possibility, that's all I'm saying.  you never know what lies around the next corner.  I am watching this space.

Quote from: "onlyme"I'm baffled and confused by what i've experienced, and will probably continue to be until I can maybe find out the answers someday.

...then...

QuoteI know what I saw.

Discontinuity in flow of thought?  Some people see things in clouds.  Some people interpret meteors as UFOs.  Some people claim to have talked with the dead.  People mostly provide subjective, anecdotal evidence which is notoriously unreliable, easily distorted and much is confabulated.  I remain skeptical.

there is no contradiction, squid.

I know what I saw, I just don't know how to explain it in a rational, physical sense.  I saw things in my right state of mind.  What I saw, I can't explain in terms of normal things that happen on this earth.

You make a good point, though.

the things I'm referring to didn't happen in clouds, but in my living room.

If you want me to go into detail, please let me know.

Quote from: "onlyme"there is no contradiction, squid.

I know what I saw, I just don't know how to explain it in a rational, physical sense.  I saw things in my right state of mind.  What I saw, I can't explain in terms of normal things that happen on this earth.

So because you have no explanation it is automatically relegated to the realm of the supernatural?

When I was a child I thought I could change the radio station with my mind in my parent's car.  I couldn't explain it otherwise.  My father simply switched the station with a footswitch that came in the vehicle.

The skeptical approach does not automatically dismiss anything.  It relies upon objective evidence to find answers.  If people's personal stories were the major source of answers we'd be overwhelmed with bunk.

yeah, squid, you had another, outside, physical agency to operate the footswitch, your father.  I didn't.

As I said before, watch this space....

You missed my point.

Do you assign anything unexplained to the supernatural?  Or just something that happens to fall into your schema of the supernatural?

Another example.  In the Malleus Malificarum a priest is described in a passage (which blames the devil):

QuoteBut when he passed any church, and genuflected in honour of the Glorious Virgin, the devil made him thrust his tongue far out of his mouth; and when he was asked whether he could not restrain himself from doing this, he answered: “I cannot help myself at all, for so he uses all my limbs and organs, my neck, my tongue, and my lungs, whenever he pleases, causing me to speak or to cry out; and I hear the words as if they were spoken by myself, but I am altogether unable to restrain them; and when I try to engage in prayer he attacks me more violently, thrusting out my tongue.”

Source - Kramer, H. and Sprenger, J. (1971/1486). Montague Summers (Ed.). The Malleus Maleficarum of Kramer and Sprenger. New York: Dover Publications.

What was described as a possession since the people assessing the behavior could not explain it any other way, was actually describing what was most likely a man with Tourette's.  Tourette's is a biologically based brain disorder...no demons or devils involved.

ok, some questions... what is pseudoscience, ESP, paranormal phenomena, free energy machines, Velikovskyism, magnet therapy, telekinesis, and poltergeists?

Wikipedia is your friend.

Quote from: "silviakjell"ok, some questions... what is pseudoscience, ESP, paranormal phenomena, free energy machines, Velikovskyism, magnet therapy, telekinesis, and poltergeists?

ESP:  extra sensory perception (I think that's right)
paranormal phenomena:  stuff people think are linked to the paranormal (ghosts etc)
magnet therapy:  using magnets to try and stimulate certain parts of the body into healing
telekinesis:  using the mind's power to try and move things (like the force on Star Wars)
Poltergeists:  ghosts that are haunting a house

I don't know how to define the others...try putting the terms in a search engine.

Ah, thanks a lot, that clears up a lot of things. but if you put a powerful magnet on a bone that has moved out of place, and then use another magnet to pull the bone back into place... well, does that count as healing? and ESP, does that mean sorta like being phycic?

Quote from: "silviakjell"Ah, thanks a lot, that clears up a lot of things. but if you put a powerful magnet on a bone that has moved out of place, and then use another magnet to pull the bone back into place... well, does that count as healing? and ESP, does that mean sorta like being phycic?

A magnet pulling on a bone? Do you mean a bone in a human body? Have you heard of something like this? Please clarify this one.

Quote from: "silviakjell"Ah, thanks a lot, that clears up a lot of things. but if you put a powerful magnet on a bone that has moved out of place, and then use another magnet to pull the bone back into place... well, does that count as healing?

That wouldn't work, and magnets aren't used that way.  Usually when a bone breaks it doesn't break cleanly.  So, if someone were to try and put very strong magnets on either side of the fracture in order to try and set the bone it would cause more damage.  In order to set a fractured bone it is often necessary to pull (away from the fracture) on the bone first before pushing/pulling it over and back into place.

The idea behind magnet therapy is that the weak magnet field helps to relieve muscle aches, arthritis, pain in bad joints, and things of that nature.  As far as I know, the magnets actually don't do any good but also don't cause additional harm.

Quote from: "silviakjell"...and ESP, does that mean sorta like being phycic?

ESP stands for Extra Sensory Perception.  It is based on the notion that some people have ability to "sense" things beyond our regular senses of touch, sight, hearing and so forth.  Many experiments have been performed over the years on many people claiming to have ESP - most showed nothing.  Some have given false positives due to methodology flaws or mistakes made by those aiding in conducting the experiment.

Many people I've run into who support ESP as real claim that it is part of some untapped resource in our brains, some unused part that can be unlocked - and studying the brain and how it works you will see why this is simply ridiculous.

Here's the wikipedia article on ESP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-sensory_perception

And funny enough, just like what many creationists do when the flaws in their experiments is pointed out, they cry about a scientific conspiracy - that the science community won't accept ESP even though it's "true" - which is utter crap.

I think squid has ESP.

That little penguin thingy seems to know a lot about me

Quote from: "laetusatheos"

Quote from: "silviakjell"Ah, thanks a lot, that clears up a lot of things. but if you put a powerful magnet on a bone that has moved out of place, and then use another magnet to pull the bone back into place... well, does that count as healing?

That wouldn't work, and magnets aren't used that way.  Usually when a bone breaks it doesn't break cleanly.  So, if someone were to try and put very strong magnets on either side of the fracture in order to try and set the bone it would cause more damage.  In order to set a fractured bone it is often necessary to pull (away from the fracture) on the bone first before pushing/pulling it over and back into place.

The idea behind magnet therapy is that the weak magnet field helps to relieve muscle aches, arthritis, pain in bad joints, and things of that nature.  As far as I know, the magnets actually don't do any good but also don't cause additional harm.

Good answer laetus. This is why I wanted silviakjell to clarify the question. If it's in reference moving the bones based on the the iron contained in the human body, it would not work. The iron in our bodies is not ferromagnetic. If it was, then the first time you enter an MRI would also be your last! And no, magnet therapy does not work for any of the things claimed by magnet therapy companies, practitioners, etc.

For a more detailed explanation, see:

http://www.revisemri.com/blog/2006/mri- ... ttraction/ (http://www.revisemri.com/blog/2006/mri-blood-iron-attraction/)

No, no, no, it's just my imagination run wild again. I can make questions from any comment, you just wait and see.

What I meant is if a bone is not fractured, just slid out of place, if you attach a magnet on the bone, and then used another magnet outside of the body to try to pull the bone, would it work? I know it sounds sort of ridiculous, but I'm just wondering. I didn't get this from some science book or anything.

sil...my answer above explains why that wouldn't work.

Quote from: "laetusatheos"sil...my answer above explains why that wouldn't work.

I think you might be missing what Silviakjell is saying. It's a bit silly, really (sorry Sil).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sil is saying, if you were to open the skin and insert a magnet into the bone, or glue one onto the bone, would you be able to manipulate the bone with another, outside magnet. (Right, Sil?)

Well, yes you could, but it's much more practical to just set the bone and immobilize it. If you have to open the skin to do repairs, it's much more practical to use plates and screws.

oh...ya, i guess that does sound more like what she was talking about.  So, ya it would work...but would be a lot more difficult and invasive.  If the bone is just out of place (like a dislocated shoulder) it would be faster and less painful to just shove it back into place by hand.  (is that what you meant, a dislocated bone rather than one that is broken?)

Right on MikeyV.

It is hard to define pseudo science really.  Often in our history inventions have been made for the science catches up with the technology to explain how it works.
Until the technology is scientifically verified I guess the mumbo jumbo surrounding the invention is pseudo science.  It would appear that for instance, electrochemical cells had been discovered and used by the ancient Egyptians for metal plating.  They had no idea of course of cations, ions and electrolytes but they knew how to metal plate is would seem.  I am sure they dressed that up with a bit of magic.

I'm a skeptic.

I hold a different opinion Venom.  Pseudoscience is a product of trying to put the cart before the horse.

Trying to rationalize something by using big words or overly technical language is an example of pseudoscience.  

Performing biased experiments without publicly acknowledging the bias and/or attempting to mitigate or eliminate the bias with the goal of proving a pre-made conclusion is an example of pseudoscience.  So instead of creating/running experiments to see if an hypothesis holds true, the purpose of the experiment is to create "evidence" that proves a particular conclusion.

When you think of pseudoscience, think of the Creation Museum.  When you think pseudoscience, think of the tobacco companies' researching the safety of their products (where independent study found their research to be flawed).

We have a different idea of what is meant by pseudo science but I can see what you are saying.

I always took pseudo-science to be anything that was purely non-scientific but tried to pass itself off as being scientific. Hence pseudo: "not genuine but having the appearance of".

I don't believe in any of that. However, I'm surrounded by people who do. Ghosts seem to be very popular, as well as horoscopes.
Of course, I've never seen a ghost or been in a situation so strange that I could only attribute it to a ghost's action. But people who believe in it seem to be constantly haunted by ghosts! These people seem to think that the only possible (and logical) explanation for what they saw/felt has to do with ghosts.
I was talking to a friend yesterday, and she told me she was helping her mom at the school she works at. It was night. The Janitor was with them. As they were leaving, they heard some chairs being dragged in one of the rooms. They say they were all locked up. Then the janitor told them that he hears similar things every night, such as doors opening and closing, furniture moving, etc.
So how convince her that it couldn't possibly be a ghost? I tried coming up with a bunch of elaborate explanations but, of course, she wasn't convinced. I ended up saying "Yes, you are right. Ghosts are the most logical explanation..." (with a bit of sarcasm )

I think belief in the paranormal is an evolutionary development. If you believed there were werewolves or vampires in the woods it kept you from going in there and getting lost/breaking something/getting eaten by a real wolf. The human imagination is what makes us what we are. It's also, unfortunately, why people still believe in gods.  

I discount all forms of paranormal activity, I would want to test them myself, in my own home to be sure of these things. Except resurrection, this is a demonstrable phenomenon, things come back from the dead all the time, LIKE THIS THREAD!

Quote from: "SSY"I discount all forms of paranormal activity, I would want to test them myself, in my own home to be sure of these things. Except resurrection, this is a demonstrable phenomenon, things come back from the dead all the time, LIKE THIS THREAD!

 

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"

Quote from: "SSY"I discount all forms of paranormal activity, I would want to test them myself, in my own home to be sure of these things. Except resurrection, this is a demonstrable phenomenon, things come back from the dead all the time, LIKE THIS THREAD!

 

He is correct.

People can come back to life, usually through medical procedure.

And they did it with mice and gas.

If they did it as an experiment, under repeatable, controlled conditions, does that mean it is not really paranormal?

Hi there,

(This is my first real post)

This is a topic that has interested me since I was... well, born, I think.  I've always been sort of fascinated/obsessed with the paranormal and things of that nature.  The way that I have always interpreted it is that "supernatural" things are not necessarily un-natural (because this is a complete contradiction--nothing in nature can exist if it is not naturally occurring), it's just something that science is, as of yet, unable to explain.  For example, magnets may have once been seen as "magic" because they can move things, but now we know about electromagnetism (and, btw, the whole magnet therapy thing is based on a pretty good idea--that external magnets may affect the human body's natural electromagnetic field--which it does, provably and scientifically, have--it's how the touch pad mouse works.  I'm just not sure if these therapies have actually undergone in-depth scientific studies, or if they have, the results have been ambiguous).

Anyone who as studied much theoretical physics (which I have not--I've only read the Cliffs Notes versions of these things) knows that the cutting edge of science these days borders on philosophy--because the math works, but the particles are too small, or the cosmos too inaccessible to us at the degree necessary to perform the experiments.  But things like "dark matter" and quarks, and even Einstein's theories, Schroedinger's Cat, and all of the newest science would seem like "paranormal" theories to anyone 100 years ago.  Electrons have been shown to bilocate--to actually exist in two places at once.  Light is both a particle and a wave, something that scientists are still trying to wrap their brains around.  All the attempts to unite the 4 forces of the universe require the existence of at least 6 parallel dimensions.

So at what point does cutting edge theoretical science become the supernatural?  What if ghosts exist, but the technology just doesn't exist yet to quantify their existence?

So yeah, I definitely believe in the possibility of these things.  And who hasn't thought about ghosts when they're home alone and gotten completely freaked out?  

-bfat

While I'm very convinced in the non-existence of God, I have a much more charitable feeling for ghosts.  Ghosts I have seen and heard and touched.  God I can't say I've ever encountered.

Allow me to yarn a bit and placate the skeptics, as I was once also a skeptic regarding the supernatural.  Then I moved to Lancaster for college, and had all sorts of weird and seemingly unexplainable experiences.

My Freshmen year, the last week of the semester I had packed everything up and unplugged my computer to bring home for Christmas.  That night, laying alone in bed, I heard whispers coming from the unplugged computer speakers.  I double checked to see that they were unplugged, and I put my ear up against the wall to see if the people next door were making noise.  They weren't.

Sophomore year, around 3:30am I woke up facing the wall.  I felt my skin crawling, like I was being watched.  I turned around, and there was a dark shadowy figure standing by my bed.  I screamed, and the apparition vanished  Several days later, both my fish and my pet rat died.  I also did some minor investigation stuff with my roommates.  We investigated an old farm house, where we were chased away by a truck that disappeared.  Other locals said that people reported getting chased by disappearing cars frequently in that area.  We also did EVP and took photo in an old Mennonite cemetery.  All three of us had our cameras die almost simultaneously, and when we played back the EVP recording, you could hear a very low woman's voice say "terminate the camera" right before our cameras died.

Junior into Senior year, I lived in a one bedroom that I shared with another girl.  We would have weird and unexplainable things happen all the time.  If we would go out and leave a light on, it would be off when we got back.  The shower curtain that was always left open would close itself.  Sometimes the TV or CD player would kick on or off randomly.  It wasn't uncommon for small items of furniture or knick knacks to be moved, or to have sudden temperature drops in the apartment.  We'd often hear voices or feel footsteps in the living room.  We found out 6 or 7 months into our lease that a girl had been murdered there, and her killer never found.

I really didn't know what to make of it, then or now.  Something was obviously going on, but I can't rationalize it.