I'm surprised someone hasn't posted this yet. A huge metal cross is landmarked at the ground zero memorial site.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-groups-lawsuit-against-wtc-cross-sad-and-misguided-52940/
Quote
"The attempt to remove the cross is another sad and misguided example of incessant efforts to remove all religious symbols from public ife," Forbes said. "To remove this cross, a physical part of the history of that tragic day would be an insult to the many who found solace in its symbolism." Forbes noted that the cross, made up of two ntersecting steel beams found intact amid the rubble of the 2001 terrorist attacks, "has served as a symbol of hope for many devastated by the worst terrorist attack in our nation's history."
Well I agree it should be taken down. The Christians didn't think it a befitting place for anything Islamic. So now they know what it feels like. I say build a super Walmart with a McDonald's inside and call it a grand worshiping place. Everyone worships smiley low prices and french fries.
I agree. And how obnoxious is it to assume everyone who died/was affected by 9/11 was religious? Or even Catholic/Christian?
I'm sure muslims and atheists died all the same.
I was for the mosque btw. It was actually a community center for ALL PEOPLE.
It made me sick to see people protesting it, acting so high and mighty. ... :-[
It's just a piece of wreckage that happens to look like a cross...they aren't going to win any more than they could win a case against government funds maintain a historic church or religious artifacts in a museum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_cross
I think they should just come up with a nicely worded plaque about how people of many worldview, cultures etc died that day and insist that it be installed one one of the sides of the base of the cross shaped beams.
Well, i'm certain people are going to be gripping their rosaries and praying beside it. No religious objects should be the best thing. This still seems a bit tasteless...
I think they should erect symbols to all the belief, and non-belief, systems or none at all.
Quote from: Tank on July 28, 2011, 08:19:32 AM
I think they sould errect symbols to all the belief, and non-belief, systems or none at all.
Maybe just a statue of a human being would do. But then again I've seen pictures of the places directly across and near the site. A strip club is right near there if I remember correctly. It's not exactly a holy place of any kind.
Quote from: Medusa on July 28, 2011, 08:21:16 AM
Quote from: Tank on July 28, 2011, 08:19:32 AM
I think they should erect symbols to all the belief, and non-belief, systems or none at all.
Maybe just a statue of a human being would do. But then again I've seen pictures of the places directly across and near the site. A strip club is right near there if I remember correctly. It's not exactly a holy place of any kind.
Yep that would be the best idea.
EDIT: Maybe a group of people. If there were just the one would it be male/female, african/caucasian/asian? Could be quite a large group to be totally politically correct!!
Quote from: Tank on July 28, 2011, 08:36:59 AM
Quote from: Medusa on July 28, 2011, 08:21:16 AM
Quote from: Tank on July 28, 2011, 08:19:32 AM
I think they should erect symbols to all the belief, and non-belief, systems or none at all.
Maybe just a statue of a human being would do. But then again I've seen pictures of the places directly across and near the site. A strip club is right near there if I remember correctly. It's not exactly a holy place of any kind.
Yep that would be the best idea.
EDIT: Maybe a group of people. If there were just the one would it be male/female, african/caucasian/asian? Could be quite a large group to be totally politically correct!!
Actually, that's a really good idea! After all, human beings died that day, of all creed. Human beings went into the toxic smoke to try to find any sign of life. Peope took action to help on this tragedy, so why the heck are we putting up a cross? >:(
I think we should plant a beautiful garden. Flowers are a symbol of life and death. People can sit there and enjoy them together without religion being involved.
Though I agree with most of the things that American Atheists choose to make statements on, and also agree with most of those public statements, I think that their seeming desire to be a confrontational voice of atheism in America actually does little to further a goal of making atheism less vilified and more accepted in the US. Their PR campaign seems to be focused on a fairly strident tone, playing into the Fox News caricature of atheists as mere God-haters.
Since this cross (which is undeniably a Christian symbol, contrary to the assertion of Justice Scalia (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/08/us/08scotus.html)) has historic significance, and is also a symbol of hope for Christians, I think that even though American Atheists may be technically correct, a better approach might be to champion something along the lines of what Tank suggested; an ecumenical memorial which, along with the cross, would acknowledge the dead who belonged to other faiths and those who belonged to none.
Atheists face death threats on Fox Facebook page; re: 9/11 cross (http://www.examiner.com/humanist-in-national/atheists-face-death-threats-on-fox-facebook-page-re-9-11-cross)
QuoteDeath threats aimed at American Atheists populated the Fox News Facebook page after Blair Scott, Communications Director for American Atheists, appeared on America Live with Megyn Kelly Thursday.
Scott's appearance on Fox News was motivated by the recent complaint filed by American Atheists and others with the state of New York asking for fair and equal treatment by the National September 11 Memorial and Museum.
American Atheists argue that inclusion of the 9/11 cross and the exclusion of representations suitable to non-Christians constitutes a violation of the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States...
At the bottom of the page is a slide show of screen captures of the death threats and they haven't pixelated the user names. So I've invited one (Sindy Clock) to come over and see what nice atheists are like :D
Death threats? Oh, religious people are such a peaceful bunch. ::)
Keep the cross and add mangled iron that looks like the symbol for the atom with an a in it
Quote from: fester30 on July 31, 2011, 08:25:32 AM
Keep the cross and add mangled iron that looks like the symbol for the atom with an a in it
Based on something like this?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_873KDzHC8dU%2FS8dKL0P-xBI%2FAAAAAAAAAIc%2Fi4ctnG1SukI%2Fs1600%2FAtheist%2B-%2BAtom%2BSymbol.jpg&hash=d624601c01eda7f696cfde1bbcc9a6494de5877d)
I think a new skyscraper should simply be built. I never understood this memorializing mentality. Personally, if I had a close friend or relative die there, I wouldn't want it to become a bigger tourist attraction.
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on July 31, 2011, 09:30:19 AM
I think a new skyscraper should simply be built. I never understood this memorializing mentality. Personally, if I had a close friend or relative die there, I wouldn't want it to become a bigger tourist attraction.
I'm sure the other reason they are doing it is to rake in more tourists to bring in the dough. After all, greedy corperate America is always asking "how do I make more money from such a tragedy?" I mean, all I saw after 2001 were tshirts and mugs with bullshit patrioti crap on it. Whatever. e_e
Quote from: Tank on July 31, 2011, 08:31:26 AM
Quote from: fester30 on July 31, 2011, 08:25:32 AM
Keep the cross and add mangled iron that looks like the symbol for the atom with an a in it
Based on something like this?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_873KDzHC8dU%2FS8dKL0P-xBI%2FAAAAAAAAAIc%2Fi4ctnG1SukI%2Fs1600%2FAtheist%2B-%2BAtom%2BSymbol.jpg&hash=d624601c01eda7f696cfde1bbcc9a6494de5877d)
Yeah I guess that's the problem with the atheist symbol. You won't coincidentally find that in random events of life like you will a lower-cased t.
Quote from: fester30 on July 31, 2011, 03:34:31 PM
Yeah I guess that's the problem with the atheist symbol.
Is that even a universal atheist symbol or is it just the American Atheist logo?
They could plant a bunch of pansies and call it a freethought memorial garden.
Pansies are great flowers as well because they can survive harsh winters. :D
Quote from: Whitney on July 31, 2011, 11:19:19 PM
Quote from: fester30 on July 31, 2011, 03:34:31 PM
Yeah I guess that's the problem with the atheist symbol.
Is that even a universal atheist symbol or is it just the American Atheist logo?
They could plant a bunch of pansies and call it a freethought memorial garden.
That would be so cool!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/spirited-atheist/post/atheist-groups-frivolous-lawsuit-aims-to-bar-cross-from-911-museum/2011/08/01/gIQAgvATnI_blog.html
I think if it's part of the museum exhibit (along with the other pieces they said they found at the site) I see no problem with it. If it's going to be turned into some church...then make it a church and not a museum. I'm not quite so sure what the big hubbub is about. I mean I see it. I just don't...get it.
I thought that the place was privately owned. If it is private then they should be able to put the cross up (I'd even say they could put up a fire fighter, buddy Jesus spraying Muslims), if it's government owned then they shouldn't be able to put any kind of religious symbol up.
Quote from: Davin on August 02, 2011, 04:07:34 PM
I thought that the place was privately owned. If it is private then they should be able to put the cross up (I'd even say they could put up a fire fighter, buddy Jesus spraying Muslims), if it's government owned then they shouldn't be able to put any kind of religious symbol up.
Doesn't the New York Harbour Authority own the site? That was the basis of one of the conspiracy theories, that the NYHA wanted rid of the towers.
Quote from: Tank on August 02, 2011, 04:15:41 PM
Quote from: Davin on August 02, 2011, 04:07:34 PM
I thought that the place was privately owned. If it is private then they should be able to put the cross up (I'd even say they could put up a fire fighter, buddy Jesus spraying Muslims), if it's government owned then they shouldn't be able to put any kind of religious symbol up.
Doesn't the New York Harbour Authority own the site? That was the basis of one of the conspiracy theories, that the NYHA wanted rid of the towers.
Apparently it's complicated. Hopefuly those with access to all relevant documents (many of which are claimed to be missing), will be able to determine who owns the bits that they want to put the cross on and then determine whether it's governmental and not allowed or private and allowed.
Quote from: Davin on August 02, 2011, 04:07:34 PM
if it's government owned then they shouldn't be able to put any kind of religious symbol up.
It's a government funded memorial museum intended to serve as a place that displays various things related to the 9/11 events....as someone said on facebook; if AA wins then I want to be in town for when NY's gov owned/funded museums all have a sidewalk sale to rid themselves of their religiously symbolic artifacts.
Separation of Church and state doesn't mean censoring religion out of historic events. People's reactions to a cross shaped piece of structural debris is a part of an account of the recovery efforts after 9/11. One of the firefighter groups who helped with Murrah Building (OKC Bombing) rescue efforts wrote a message that included the word God on a wall and it was preserved as part of the Murrah Building memorial....it's just part of the events surrounding that day (and the days after) and doesn't distract from a secular appreciation of the memorial site or adjacent museum.
Tank...if it was private owned land the lawsuit would have been thrown out already. The judge can't throw it out at a frivolous at this point because s/he has to give AA a chance to prove the physical and emotional damages they are claiming as the basis of their lawsuit...that's what's especially stupid about this; they are having to state that seeing a cross in a museum actually causes physical/mental damages to atheists; it's not being challenged solely on constitutional grounds (a flaw in our judicial system requires that damages be proven in order to have ground to sue).
QuoteQuoteHe pointed to parts of the lawsuit naming four individual atheists, who are described as having suffered "dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish from the knowledge that they are made to feel officially excluded from the ranks of citizens who were directly injured by the 9/11 attack."
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/nyregion/atheists-sue-to-ban-display-of-cross-shaped-beam-in-911-museum.html?_r=3&hp
I don't remember any atheists going to the 9/11 site and building a FSM shrine or spray painting on a big A as a memorial to fallen atheists....since we have no artifacts related to the event that can be displayed (at least none that I am aware of) there can't be any justified claim of exclusion. It's not like they are commissioning an artist to build a cross statue to commemorate the day...
Quote from: Whitney on August 02, 2011, 04:38:12 PM
Quote from: Davin on August 02, 2011, 04:07:34 PM
if it's government owned then they shouldn't be able to put any kind of religious symbol up.
It's a government funded memorial museum intended to serve as a place that displays various things related to the 9/11 events....as someone said on facebook; if AA wins then I want to be in town for when NY's gov owned/funded museums all have a sidewalk sale to rid themselves of their religiously symbolic artifacts.
That doesn't sound like a violation to me. In all the three articles I've just read about it, it's going to be inside as just another thing among lots of things. Serves me right for opening my mouth before actually reading about it, I had thought it was going be outside somewhere all alone.
Religious symbols can stay in a history textbook, in your house, or at a church, but there is no need for a giant metal cross at what is suppose to be a memorial site for all people who had losd at 9/11.
I just don't like it, and frankly I am tired of religion always in my face. I hope the NYA/AA do win the lawsuit. :-\
Quote from: Whitney on August 02, 2011, 04:38:12 PM
Tank...if it was private owned land the lawsuit would have been thrown out already. The judge can't throw it out at a frivolous at this point because s/he has to give AA a chance to prove the physical and emotional damages they are claiming as the basis of their lawsuit...that's what's especially stupid about this; they are having to state that seeing a cross in a museum actually causes physical/mental damages to atheists; it's not being challenged solely on constitutional grounds (a flaw in our judicial system requires that damages be proven in order to have ground to sue).
How on Earth could a cross cause anybody physical and emotional damage? What a pile of unmitigated BS! Oh well if AA win there will undoubtedly be plenty of claims from some extremist Christians that the Pakistani flag or a mosque can cause 'physical and emotional damage'.
Quote from: Davin on August 02, 2011, 04:50:26 PM
Quote from: Whitney on August 02, 2011, 04:38:12 PM
Quote from: Davin on August 02, 2011, 04:07:34 PM
if it's government owned then they shouldn't be able to put any kind of religious symbol up.
It's a government funded memorial museum intended to serve as a place that displays various things related to the 9/11 events....as someone said on facebook; if AA wins then I want to be in town for when NY's gov owned/funded museums all have a sidewalk sale to rid themselves of their religiously symbolic artifacts.
That doesn't sound like a violation to me. In all the three articles I've just read about it, it's going to be inside as just another thing among lots of things. Serves me right for opening my mouth before actually reading about it, I had thought it was going be outside somewhere all alone.
I'm in the same boat. I had only looked at the picture of the crane with the cross, and it looked like this giant cross would be at the entrance or on top of the museum, at which point I thought it was a clear problem. Since it is only one exhibit out of a large number of exhibits in a museum, I think we can say the purpose of the museum itself isn't about celebrating the Christian faith of victims, but instead about remembering the victims and the images of the time. I'd personally let this one go and focus on more important matters.
So, I pride myself on admitting when I'm wrong. As recent as yesterday, I told Whitney on another board that I disagreed with her about her position. Now with more information from this thread and from the column in the link below, I have decided that I disagree with American Atheists on this issue (see how easy that was? I just said I was wrong and feel better for it!). I would prefer it not be there, but as long as it's just an exhibit, I really don't think it is worth sullying our name.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/spirited-atheist/post/atheist-groups-frivolous-lawsuit-aims-to-bar-cross-from-911-museum/2011/08/01/gIQAgvATnI_blog.html
Oh, I missed where Whitney had already posted this link. Sorry for the double post.