I was at Friday prayer with my dad. Our Imam (he is a crazy fundy) told us a whole load of bull. He talked about the signs of the Day of Judgement and how we are on sign 9 (widespread adultery/zina). But his most incorrect argument for Islam was that "Islam makes your life simple." At that moment I really had to bite my tongue or else I would of said something that I would probably get murdered for. The truth is that Islam is a complicated religion. There is soo many rules, how will you follow all of them! First and foremost you can't eat pig meat (gave us no good reason why). You have to do everything good with your right hand since Muslims wipe their ass with their left. You have to pray 5 times a day, praying for Muslims is a combination of incantations called surahs and du'aas and moving up and down. As with any other abrahamic religion they prevent you from homosexuality and sodomy (you could get stoned for it in this religion). You even have to say a du'aa before/during/after anything (even going to the washroom). That is far from a "simple" life. For the majority of my life I accepted the idea of god but didn't really care about most of the rules. But the hardest part of being a muslim, at least for me, was trying to defend these rules. I was never given a better answer than "because god told you so" or "life is a test, restrict yourself from this and you will pass in the end". Man I am happy that I am an atheist now (well at least on the inside). I really hope more and more people will leave this cult of a religion called Islam. I would go public but I don't want to be disowned or worse killed.
I dunno. My boyfriend does all those things. He seems pretty relaxed. Some poeple just can't do that stuff. I couldn't.
I think it's a matter of perspective, maybe, though I also can't see in what way they say that all those strict controls and rituals make one's life simpler. For an atheist that has to go through the motions, I'd say it's the closest thing to hell there is. For a believer...I haven't a clue.
Could they have meant simple in the sense that all the rules are already there and that they don't need to think about anything other than what's already established to lead what they feel is a stable and 'safe' life?
My experience is with Muslims while I was deployed. Part of our safety in the US Air Force is to do FOD (Foreign Object Damage) walks to find nuts and bolts and rocks that can get sucked into a jet engine. We do this to keep our aircraft from crashing. When I mentioned this to a Muslim Kuwaiti, he thought it was ridiculous. When I asked him why, he said Insha'Allah, which means God willing. In other words, we as humans cannot thwart God's will. If it is God's will that your jet crashes, doing a FOD walk will not prevent this. Allah will simply find another way to crash your jet. Therefore, FOD walks and other safety measures are pointless. Of course, this means the fact that they even do maintenance on their aircraft makes no sense.
Anyway, the point is, that if you leave everything in life in God's hands, you are left with fewer things to be concerned with. You just have to remember to pray and not be homosexual or a woman. If you remember these things, Allah will take care of the rest. That is simpler than what I concern myself with.
If your faith is a bit shaky life could get a bit complicated.
If your values are better than those in the book, which wouldn't be too hard to imagine, you might have to go through all sorts of mental contortions to make things seem right.
Quote from: fester30 on July 17, 2011, 07:28:21 AM
My experience is with Muslims while I was deployed. Part of our safety in the US Air Force is to do FOD (Foreign Object Damage) walks to find nuts and bolts and rocks that can get sucked into a jet engine. We do this to keep our aircraft from crashing. When I mentioned this to a Muslim Kuwaiti, he thought it was ridiculous. When I asked him why, he said Insha'Allah, which means God willing. In other words, we as humans cannot thwart God's will. If it is God's will that your jet crashes, doing a FOD walk will not prevent this. Allah will simply find another way to crash your jet. Therefore, FOD walks and other safety measures are pointless. Of course, this means the fact that they even do maintenance on their aircraft makes no sense.
Anyway, the point is, that if you leave everything in life in God's hands, you are left with fewer things to be concerned with. You just have to remember to pray and not be homosexual or a woman. If you remember these things, Allah will take care of the rest. That is simpler than what I concern myself with.
???
Then if people are searching for harzards before taking off, then wouldn't that also fit with god's will? I don't know why people who think like that even bother to do things such as eat, drink, and take the occasional breath of air. If it's god's will that they live, then why go through
those motions?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 01:07:50 AM
I think it's a matter of perspective, maybe, though I also can't see in what way they say that all those strict controls and rituals make one's life simpler. For an atheist that has to go through the motions, I'd say it's the closest thing to hell there is. For a believer...I haven't a clue.
Could they have meant simple in the sense that all the rules are already there and that they don't need to think about anything other than what's already established to lead what they feel is a stable and 'safe' life?
Going through the motions is easy. Lying and pretending is easy. But telling the truth is what you really want to do. For better or for worse you just kind of want to get it off you chest. You just want to present your individuality and be you. But you have to stop yourself from saying anything. That's the hard part, not the lying itself but living with the lie.
Yea I agree with you, people are way too accustomed to routine. Well I personally think living life "safely" isn't really living at all.
Quote from: CHI83 on July 17, 2011, 06:37:18 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 01:07:50 AM
I think it's a matter of perspective, maybe, though I also can't see in what way they say that all those strict controls and rituals make one's life simpler. For an atheist that has to go through the motions, I'd say it's the closest thing to hell there is. For a believer...I haven't a clue.
Could they have meant simple in the sense that all the rules are already there and that they don't need to think about anything other than what's already established to lead what they feel is a stable and 'safe' life?
Going through the motions is easy. Lying and pretending is easy. But telling the truth is what you really want to do. For better or for worse you just kind of want to get it off you chest. You just want to present your individuality and be you. But you have to stop yourself from saying anything. That's the hard part, not the lying itself but living with the lie.
Yea I agree with you, people are way too accustomed to routine. Well I personally think living life "safely" isn't really living at all.
Living a double life in a sense, but it's
not healthy. But if there's a real risk to you if you come out as an atheist, then that's also not a good route to take. Some people might come up with rather dumb excuses such as all you have to do is accept it and that the problem lies within you and not in the situation, but that's all they are: dumb excuses made by people who have only their best interests in mind. Have you considered taking steps to remedy your situation without putting yourself at risk?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 06:54:52 PM
Quote from: CHI83 on July 17, 2011, 06:37:18 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 01:07:50 AM
I think it's a matter of perspective, maybe, though I also can't see in what way they say that all those strict controls and rituals make one's life simpler. For an atheist that has to go through the motions, I'd say it's the closest thing to hell there is. For a believer...I haven't a clue.
Could they have meant simple in the sense that all the rules are already there and that they don't need to think about anything other than what's already established to lead what they feel is a stable and 'safe' life?
Going through the motions is easy. Lying and pretending is easy. But telling the truth is what you really want to do. For better or for worse you just kind of want to get it off you chest. You just want to present your individuality and be you. But you have to stop yourself from saying anything. That's the hard part, not the lying itself but living with the lie.
Yea I agree with you, people are way too accustomed to routine. Well I personally think living life "safely" isn't really living at all.
Living a double life in a sense, but it's not healthy. But if there's a real risk to you if you come out as an atheist, then that's also not a good route to take. Some people might come up with rather dumb excuses such as all you have to do is accept it and that the problem lies within you and not in the situation, but that's all they are: dumb excuses made by people who have only their best interests in mind. Have you considered taking steps to remedy your situation without putting yourself at risk?
What do you mean by taking steps by remedying the situation. I tried to tell my younger sis and she got pissed. She said "How dare you disrespect god!" After that I decided not to go any further. I trust my younger sis and she is usually the most neutral of the family. If she reacted this badly my parents will react worse. Much worse. I told them I wanted to go vegetarian (which I never got to be :'() and they flipped out. If they reacted that badly to a simple diet change, a lifestyle/belief change would probably drive my mom into a panic attack. My mom is the crazy, almost psychotic one. My dad on the other hand is more calm and peaceful. But they will both take it badly.
Quote from: CHI83 on July 17, 2011, 07:07:40 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 06:54:52 PM
Quote from: CHI83 on July 17, 2011, 06:37:18 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 01:07:50 AM
I think it's a matter of perspective, maybe, though I also can't see in what way they say that all those strict controls and rituals make one's life simpler. For an atheist that has to go through the motions, I'd say it's the closest thing to hell there is. For a believer...I haven't a clue.
Could they have meant simple in the sense that all the rules are already there and that they don't need to think about anything other than what's already established to lead what they feel is a stable and 'safe' life?
Going through the motions is easy. Lying and pretending is easy. But telling the truth is what you really want to do. For better or for worse you just kind of want to get it off you chest. You just want to present your individuality and be you. But you have to stop yourself from saying anything. That's the hard part, not the lying itself but living with the lie.
Yea I agree with you, people are way too accustomed to routine. Well I personally think living life "safely" isn't really living at all.
Living a double life in a sense, but it's not healthy. But if there's a real risk to you if you come out as an atheist, then that's also not a good route to take. Some people might come up with rather dumb excuses such as all you have to do is accept it and that the problem lies within you and not in the situation, but that's all they are: dumb excuses made by people who have only their best interests in mind. Have you considered taking steps to remedy your situation without putting yourself at risk?
What do you mean by taking steps by remedying the situation. I tried to tell my younger sis and she got pissed. She said "How dare you disrespect god!" After that I decided not to go any further. I trust my younger sis Do they believe in a literal hell? and she is usually the most neutral of the family. If she reacted this badly my parents will react worse. Much worse. I told them I wanted to go vegetarian (which I never got to be :'() and they flipped out. If they reacted that badly to a simple diet change, a lifestyle/belief change would probably drive my mom into a panic attack. My mom is the crazy, almost psychotic one. My dad on the other hand is more calm and peaceful. But they will both take it badly.
Unfortunately I don't think I can help you without suggesting something more radical, such as moving out so or something like that. Like I said, there could be some real risks such as being ousted from a community that you may still depend on, or worse, but I'm not going to apply what have become an overly-used stereotype here. Have you tried talking to other ex-muslims online? They might have better suggestions on how to deal with the situation as best as possible. People who grew up in fundementalist Christian homes also have similar stories.
What do your parents think of atheists in general? Do you think that they would see you as a person differently if they knew that you were an atheist? Do you think that it might be productive to start with education them on how your worldview differs from theirs and why being an atheist does not mean that you're a bad person? Do they believe in a literal hell?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 05:57:54 PM
Then if people are searching for harzards before taking off, then wouldn't that also fit with god's will? I don't know why people who think like that even bother to do things such as eat, drink, and take the occasional breath of air. If it's god's will that they live, then why go through those motions?
The lazy religious persons reasoning.
As Christopher Hitchens likes to point out religion in all its forms are really death cults.
Quote from: CHI83 on July 16, 2011, 09:57:51 PM
"Islam makes your life simple."
Yup don't think for yourself and just follow what he tells you to, simples.
I'm interested to see what iSok will say about this topic.
Quote from: Crow on July 17, 2011, 08:54:20 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 05:57:54 PM
Then if people are searching for harzards before taking off, then wouldn't that also fit with god's will? I don't know why people who think like that even bother to do things such as eat, drink, and take the occasional breath of air. If it's god's will that they live, then why go through those motions?
The lazy religious persons reasoning.
As Christopher Hitchens likes to point out religion in all its forms are really death cults.
That they are. Revolve too much around death. I've never seen such obsession.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 08:10:26 PM
Quote from: CHI83 on July 17, 2011, 07:07:40 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 06:54:52 PM
Quote from: CHI83 on July 17, 2011, 06:37:18 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 01:07:50 AM
I think it's a matter of perspective, maybe, though I also can't see in what way they say that all those strict controls and rituals make one's life simpler. For an atheist that has to go through the motions, I'd say it's the closest thing to hell there is. For a believer...I haven't a clue.
Could they have meant simple in the sense that all the rules are already there and that they don't need to think about anything other than what's already established to lead what they feel is a stable and 'safe' life?
Going through the motions is easy. Lying and pretending is easy. But telling the truth is what you really want to do. For better or for worse you just kind of want to get it off you chest. You just want to present your individuality and be you. But you have to stop yourself from saying anything. That's the hard part, not the lying itself but living with the lie.
Yea I agree with you, people are way too accustomed to routine. Well I personally think living life "safely" isn't really living at all.
Living a double life in a sense, but it's not healthy. But if there's a real risk to you if you come out as an atheist, then that's also not a good route to take. Some people might come up with rather dumb excuses such as all you have to do is accept it and that the problem lies within you and not in the situation, but that's all they are: dumb excuses made by people who have only their best interests in mind. Have you considered taking steps to remedy your situation without putting yourself at risk?
What do you mean by taking steps by remedying the situation. I tried to tell my younger sis and she got pissed. She said "How dare you disrespect god!" After that I decided not to go any further. I trust my younger sis Do they believe in a literal hell? and she is usually the most neutral of the family. If she reacted this badly my parents will react worse. Much worse. I told them I wanted to go vegetarian (which I never got to be :'() and they flipped out. If they reacted that badly to a simple diet change, a lifestyle/belief change would probably drive my mom into a panic attack. My mom is the crazy, almost psychotic one. My dad on the other hand is more calm and peaceful. But they will both take it badly.
Unfortunately I don't think I can help you without suggesting something more radical, such as moving out so or something like that. Like I said, there could be some real risks such as being ousted from a community that you may still depend on, or worse, but I'm not going to apply what have become an overly-used stereotype here. Have you tried talking to other ex-muslims online? They might have better suggestions on how to deal with the situation as best as possible. People who grew up in fundementalist Christian homes also have similar stories.
What do your parents think of atheists in general? Do you think that they would see you as a person differently if they knew that you were an atheist? Do you think that it might be productive to start with education them on how your worldview differs from theirs and why being an atheist does not mean that you're a bad person? Do they believe in a literal hell?
Its not like my parents are super fundys they are just not open to change. I don't think they will kill me but probably someone from my community. I don't know what they think of atheists in general but they think that bangladeshis and muslims are the best people. I have heard them criticize Christians and Hindus before. I'm kind of scared to tell them. After my whole interest in vegan/vegetarianism, I don't think they could handle me becoming an atheist. But I will take your suggestion. If only I knew an ex-Muslim forum, could you recommend me one?
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/ quite a few members
http://www.formermuslims.com/ very small
http://www.faithfreedom.org/ this is a big one a relativly long established
Quote from: CHI83 on July 18, 2011, 07:39:19 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 08:10:26 PM
Quote from: CHI83 on July 17, 2011, 07:07:40 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 06:54:52 PM
Quote from: CHI83 on July 17, 2011, 06:37:18 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on July 17, 2011, 01:07:50 AM
I think it's a matter of perspective, maybe, though I also can't see in what way they say that all those strict controls and rituals make one's life simpler. For an atheist that has to go through the motions, I'd say it's the closest thing to hell there is. For a believer...I haven't a clue.
Could they have meant simple in the sense that all the rules are already there and that they don't need to think about anything other than what's already established to lead what they feel is a stable and 'safe' life?
Going through the motions is easy. Lying and pretending is easy. But telling the truth is what you really want to do. For better or for worse you just kind of want to get it off you chest. You just want to present your individuality and be you. But you have to stop yourself from saying anything. That's the hard part, not the lying itself but living with the lie.
Yea I agree with you, people are way too accustomed to routine. Well I personally think living life "safely" isn't really living at all.
Living a double life in a sense, but it's not healthy. But if there's a real risk to you if you come out as an atheist, then that's also not a good route to take. Some people might come up with rather dumb excuses such as all you have to do is accept it and that the problem lies within you and not in the situation, but that's all they are: dumb excuses made by people who have only their best interests in mind. Have you considered taking steps to remedy your situation without putting yourself at risk?
What do you mean by taking steps by remedying the situation. I tried to tell my younger sis and she got pissed. She said "How dare you disrespect god!" After that I decided not to go any further. I trust my younger sis Do they believe in a literal hell? and she is usually the most neutral of the family. If she reacted this badly my parents will react worse. Much worse. I told them I wanted to go vegetarian (which I never got to be :'() and they flipped out. If they reacted that badly to a simple diet change, a lifestyle/belief change would probably drive my mom into a panic attack. My mom is the crazy, almost psychotic one. My dad on the other hand is more calm and peaceful. But they will both take it badly.
Unfortunately I don't think I can help you without suggesting something more radical, such as moving out so or something like that. Like I said, there could be some real risks such as being ousted from a community that you may still depend on, or worse, but I'm not going to apply what have become an overly-used stereotype here. Have you tried talking to other ex-muslims online? They might have better suggestions on how to deal with the situation as best as possible. People who grew up in fundementalist Christian homes also have similar stories.
What do your parents think of atheists in general? Do you think that they would see you as a person differently if they knew that you were an atheist? Do you think that it might be productive to start with education them on how your worldview differs from theirs and why being an atheist does not mean that you're a bad person? Do they believe in a literal hell?
Its not like my parents are super fundys they are just not open to change. I don't think they will kill me but probably someone from my community. I don't know what they think of atheists in general but they think that bangladeshis and muslims are the best people. I have heard them criticize Christians and Hindus before. I'm kind of scared to tell them. After my whole interest in vegan/vegetarianism, I don't think they could handle me becoming an atheist. But I will take your suggestion. If only I knew an ex-Muslim forum, could you recommend me one?
I think that even the not super fundies have a fundamental misunderstanding of atheism (and other things). People already mistrust and fear atheists to varying degrees, and not actually knowing what an atheist worldview is like makes it worse. Like what your sister said, for instance. You could, when you find that the time is appropriate, explain to her that it's not really that you're disrespecting god, because you don't even believe in god in the first place. IMO it's like when people say that atheists are "angry at god". It makes no sense to harbour any such feelings towards something that in your worldview doesn't even exist. I think if you can get them to understand those sort of distinctions you could go a long way. It's where I'd start. Looks for some support before attempting to tell your parents. Try talking to your sister again and see if you can at least make her understand your point of view without feeling as threatened. She'd be one person less to fuel the fire that your parents might create after you tell them, if you do.
You can always stress that you will always respect them as people, even if you don't agree with their beliefs. Maybe with time they will do the same for you.
Islam made life pretty easy and simple for me Crow once I understood
what it meant to be a Muslim, could be different for other people.
Quote from: Tank on July 18, 2011, 08:21:19 PM
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/ quite a few members
http://www.formermuslims.com/ very small
http://www.faithfreedom.org/ this is a big one a relativly long established
I joined FFI and CEMB. I have to say CEMB is way better. Its one of the few genuine ex-muslim forums. People there are very supportive. FFI is kind of hateful so I would avoid it.
Quote from: CHI83 on July 19, 2011, 11:59:29 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 18, 2011, 08:21:19 PM
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/ quite a few members
http://www.formermuslims.com/ very small
http://www.faithfreedom.org/ this is a big one a relativly long established
I joined FFI and CEMB. I have to say CEMB is way better. Its one of the few genuine ex-muslim forums. People there are very supportive. FFI is kind of hateful so I would avoid it.
Well done! You sniffed out FFI! There are lots of ex-muslims there and a lot of hate as well. Gives you a bit of an idea of the 'outcast effect' where a person can turn on their previous 'in-group' in a most vicious manner. I'm glad, and very impressed, that you spotted the hatred yourself.
Another thing you should be aware of is that one can change one's dogma but still retain a dogmatic attitude. I haven't come across too many fundamentalists that have changed their world view but those that I have met (online) tend to be very dogmatic/fundamentalist/intolerant atheists. They have changed their world view but not their attitude towards people who don't agree with them.
I would advise proportionate response when dealing with other people's world views, up to the point you discover you are wasting your time and then walk away. You don't have to deconvert anybody, you're only responsible for your behaviour. You can't win against Faith as it is an irrational/emotional position that is, by definition, immune to facts/logic/reason. The truly faithful are delusional. Nothing exists for them but their faith, it is immutable and all-encompassing and above all completely and utterly correct.
Quote from: iSok on July 19, 2011, 01:23:47 PM
Islam made life pretty easy and simple for me Crow once I understood
what it meant to be a Muslim, could be different for other people.
Why would simple be desirable?
Quote from: Whitney on July 20, 2011, 04:54:12 PMWhy would simple be desirable?
I figured out that some people just can't stand complexity. Nor do they want to be independent enough to take responsibility for all their actions and decisions, including the bad and the catastrophic ones. Having someone untouchable to "blame" makes things easier, I suppose.
For my part, I'd probably crawl up on the walls of boredom if I were to live a simple life.
However, bowing to the floor for that thing five times a day and hanging around places of worship is just a silly way of wasting time... And then, of course, there is the opression of women, homosexuals, non-religious people and pretty much you-name-who. Doing all that opressing must be kinda' draining in the long run. Oh! And the virgins you get way up there for all your trouble... They only remain virgin until you sleep with them, yes..? And if I'm gay, will I has virgins of the same sex as I..? I don't like virgins. Too little experience.
/end musing before I start talking no sense at all
I actually have a question for Medusa, since she mentioned she was dating (or engaged?) to a muslim man.
If this is not allowed, Whitney, please let me know.
I want to ask: How can you be alright dating someone who's religious places women beneath dogs, and says it is okay to murder homosexuals?
I read in another forum you wanted to raise your children islamic.. What if you have daughters?
I'm just confused and curious.... Looking for an honest answer.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 20, 2011, 09:20:17 PM
I actually have a question for Medusa, since she mentioned she was dating (or engaged?) to a muslim man.
How can you be alright dating someone who's religious places women beneath dogs, and says it is okay to murder homosexuals?
I read in another forum you wanted to raise your children islamic.. What if you have daughters?
Simple. Because it's actually not. There is a difference between Islamic law and the culture where you live in. Catholics here are very different then Catholic in Rome or in Mexico. Take for example head coverings in the Islamic world. Depending upon the culture you are in, will depend upon the style you choose to wear. And where there is a culture(read country) where something is mandated by threat of punishment..you will find a whole slew of human right violations across the board that have no real bearing on religious law.
*as I am unsure of who Whitney is or what is permissible..I won't go into quoting the Qur'an for specific surahs to show you the views it carries on your particular questions. Unless it's ok for me to do so. I am still currently in Islamic courses and have read the Qur'an a few times to be familiar with these specific surahs.
As an aside...my fiance's mother (well the family) are all doctors. And she does not wear any head covering and is actually quite a political go getter of a woman. He lives in Cairo, Egypt. And he took part in protecting and protesting during the horrid Mubarak take down. I'm quite proud of his enthusiasm for justice and freedom.
<---whitney
Quote from: Whitney on July 21, 2011, 05:34:20 AM
<---whitney
Ha! Ok. So...am I able to post some of the surahs from the Qur'an to explain where my position on this subject stands? I'm not sure if this is allowed or not by the statement above me. I am in no way promoting a religion. Just trying to explain where I came up with my acceptance of said future husband's religion.
Quote from: Medusa on July 21, 2011, 06:25:24 AM
Quote from: Whitney on July 21, 2011, 05:34:20 AM
<---whitney
Ha! Ok. So...am I able to post some of the surahs from the Qur'an to explain where my position on this subject stands? I'm not sure if this is allowed or not by the statement above me. I am in no way promoting a religion. Just trying to explain where I came up with my acceptance of said future husband's religion.
There is no prohibition on the quoting of the content of holy books if you are using them to support a point of view or to inform a discussion. However simply posting tracts from holy books for no reason or to preach about them is frowned upon, but if somebody does that they will normally get a 'tap on the shoulder' from the staff before they are shown the door. Hope that helps.
to answer the title, I guess yes it does make decision-making easier.
examples?
a woman showed her face?
stone her
a woman drives a car?
kill her
a woman is rapes?
execute her
a woman decides to marry a man from another religion?
kill her at once
see? easy
Quote from: CHI83 on July 16, 2011, 09:57:51 PM
Our Imam (he is a crazy fundy) told us a whole load of bull.
This is very telling. I honestly want to know the truth about what goes on in mosques. Your Imam is a crazy fundamentalist ? Really how common is this?
In the UK, it is a very popular opinion that the number of fundamentalists with the power to preach is higher than most would like to imagine. Allegedly serious investigations that we are made aware of seem to confirm the same. Of course how does anyone know whether there is an agenda when making reports, or whether the Imams are hidden away when the cameras turn up.
But then the vast majority of Muslims, that are given a voice, reject this wholeheartedly. They say it is just the media's crusade agaisnt Islam. Isma means peace etc etc.
Of course the politicians say the same but when have they ever taken their heads from up their arses to actually learn the truth? Their assurances must be discounted on principle.
So really what is the score? Are there crazy fundy Imams in the mosques? Are they a problem for Muslims themselves? Dare they not mention it? Is trouble really brewing?
Or is it really a fabricated lie? Did the "home grown" suicide bombers radicalise themselves?
Serious answers sought
Quote from: MariaEvri on July 21, 2011, 11:57:23 AM
to answer the title, I guess yes it does make decision-making easier.
examples?
a woman showed her face?
stone her
a woman drives a car?
kill her
a woman is rapes?
execute her
a woman decides to marry a man from another religion?
kill her at once
see? easy
This is just depressing.... ;__;
Quote from: palebluedot on July 21, 2011, 05:39:19 PM
Quote from: CHI83 on July 16, 2011, 09:57:51 PM
Our Imam (he is a crazy fundy) told us a whole load of bull.
This is very telling. I honestly want to know the truth about what goes on in mosques. Your Imam is a crazy fundamentalist ? Really how common is this?
In the UK, it is a very popular opinion that the number of fundamentalists with the power to preach is higher than most would like to imagine. Allegedly serious investigations that we are made aware of seem to confirm the same. Of course how does anyone know whether there is an agenda when making reports, or whether the Imams are hidden away when the cameras turn up.
But then the vast majority of Muslims, that are given a voice, reject this wholeheartedly. They say it is just the media's crusade agaisnt Islam. Isma means peace etc etc.
Of course the politicians say the same but when have they ever taken their heads from up their arses to actually learn the truth? Their assurances must be discounted on principle.
So really what is the score? Are there crazy fundy Imams in the mosques? Are they a problem for Muslims themselves? Dare they not mention it? Is trouble really brewing?
Or is it really a fabricated lie? Did the "home grown" suicide bombers radicalise themselves?
Serious answers sought
Not all Imams are like that, most I've met are more normal and moderate.
He hasn't told us to kill anyone but he takes Islam way too literally. Our old Imam was much calmer during his lectures and was more nicer. This guy screams too much (making it harder to fall asleep). The first day he made us align just like while we were praying when we were sitting (he told us he did this because the Prophet did). A little kid sat at the front and he made him go to the back because edlers have to be up front. There was also a little girl (she wasn't wearing a hijab) in the middle row, he told her to either go to the women's part in the back or go behind all the men. The other Imams didn't really care about these little details or didn't shout as much.
He told us about when monkeys didn't attack him and steal when he was living abroad. He left food out for them and he saw how the elders took first, then women,children and finally the men. He also noticed some young monkey was trying to steal the food and got taken away and exiled by the "bodyguard" monkeys. He told us this a miracle from Allah (monkeys are one of our relatives right and probably have evolved or learned these complex social structures).
He is pretty much the perfect example of a conservative muslim. He had a huge beard, wears all the traditional white clothes (the old Imam just showed up in jeans sometimes) and follows every rule. He is arab. If he suddenly turned radical I wouldn't really be surprised. Says every good thing is from Allah but refuses to say that anything bad that has come from Allah or the Prophet.
Quote from: Tank on July 20, 2011, 09:49:51 AM
Quote from: CHI83 on July 19, 2011, 11:59:29 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 18, 2011, 08:21:19 PM
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/ quite a few members
http://www.formermuslims.com/ very small
http://www.faithfreedom.org/ this is a big one a relativly long established
I joined FFI and CEMB. I have to say CEMB is way better. Its one of the few genuine ex-muslim forums. People there are very supportive. FFI is kind of hateful so I would avoid it.
Well done! You sniffed out FFI! There are lots of ex-muslims there and a lot of hate as well. Gives you a bit of an idea of the 'outcast effect' where a person can turn on their previous 'in-group' in a most vicious manner. I'm glad, and very impressed, that you spotted the hatred yourself.
Another thing you should be aware of is that one can change one's dogma but still retain a dogmatic attitude. I haven't come across too many fundamentalists that have changed their world view but those that I have met (online) tend to be very dogmatic/fundamentalist/intolerant atheists. They have changed their world view but not their attitude towards people who don't agree with them.
I would advise proportionate response when dealing with other people's world views, up to the point you discover you are wasting your time and then walk away. You don't have to deconvert anybody, you're only responsible for your behaviour. You can't win against Faith as it is an irrational/emotional position that is, by definition, immune to facts/logic/reason. The truly faithful are delusional. Nothing exists for them but their faith, it is immutable and all-encompassing and above all completely and utterly correct.
Yeah, I don't really have to worry about that. Pretty much everyone in the forum is an ex-muslim (most of them are atheists or agnostics). I also hear the muslims there are wonderful, lovely and open-minded people. I mainly went there to get advice not bash peoples faith.
Quote from: MariaEvri on July 21, 2011, 11:57:23 AM
to answer the title, I guess yes it does make decision-making easier.
examples?
a woman showed her face?
stone her
a woman drives a car?
kill her
a woman is rapes?
execute her
a woman decides to marry a man from another religion?
kill her at once
see? easy
After reading posts such as this one (in both gest and frightening sincerity) I don't think this is the audience for me to pass on what I've learned about those particular things here. It would be like being Peggy Hill substituting in the Catholic private school and teaching about religion. It would be futile. So with that let's just say I've come to terms with some due diligence in my research to know better.
(You have to see that King of the Hill episode to fully enjoy my reference!) :D
So I suppose none of that is happening in the middle east right now? :-\
Quote from: Sweetdeath on July 22, 2011, 02:52:20 AM
So I suppose none of that is happening in the middle east right now? :-\
It happens all over the world. Different excuses, different douche bags. You don't need to be a Muslim to kill. Look at Casey Anthony.
Also are people aware that the majority of Muslims are not Arabs? But actually Asian such as Indian and Malaysians.
I could get into the actual news that is in the middle east. But Middle East does not =All Muslims. My fiance's mother is actually stepping up and trying to recruit new members into the new Egyptian party. I can't quite find the website he showed me (I am sure it was an Arabic URL) but here is the wiki about it and its principals. THIS is the kind of thing going on in the Middle East. Muslims rising up against terrorism and oppression while still being Muslims. You should also be aware that Muslims are THE number one victims of Terrorism. You just don't get it shown on our news. Because if it's not Americans who cares?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Egyptians_Party
In my experience there are good and bad people and good and bad theologies. The problem is the combination of bad people and Islam produces a particularly violent reaction and arrogent/abusive world view. Because there are so many Muslims and some seriousy extreme versions/sects you get a large number (but minute percentage) of Muslims that give Islam a bad name. The other issue is the cultural orthopraxy of the arabic 'Wahhabi' sect is presented as the defacto true interpretaton of the Quran/hadiths and it is a particularly vile cultural spin on Islam. Add to this the pact between the House of Saud and the sect and you get people like Bin Laden with access to a fortune to promote their particulary dangerous interpretation.
Medusa please cut out the patronising comments, you don't know us very well yet, so ask, don't presume. Just because you go around putting people in boxes don't presume others do. If you don't agree with what somebody says then explain why, don't just dismisss them with a 'holier than though' put down, which is exactly what you did to MariaEvri.
I think many Muslims are good despite what it says in the Koran just like many Christians are good despite what it says in the Bible. Each text has at least as many nasty teachings as it does good; it boils down to what way the follower decides to cherry pick it.
I also second Tank's comment about not being patronizing....it's against the civility rule.
Quote from: Tank on July 22, 2011, 10:16:54 AM
Medusa please cut out the patronising comments, you don't know us very well yet, so ask, don't presume. Just because you go around putting people in boxes don't presume others do. If you don't agree with what somebody says then explain why, don't just dismisss them with a 'holier than though' put down, which is exactly what you did to MariaEvri.
Well first I'd like to point out I was trying not to be patronizing. In fact that's why I added the smiley and the reference to King of the Hill. My point in my post was this: THIS is not the forum for me to express my thoughts on that particular subject. There is no need. I don't like to just speak to hear the sound of my own voice as it where. I want to converse and not convert to my way of thinking. Patronizing is something passive aggressive people do. I am not one. If I think you are full of bullshit. I will tell you so in no uncertain terms. I also made a point to mention that it might be in jest or in all seriousness. And since I do not know the members well enough just decided to chuck it and keep the conversation laid back.
I do not put anyone in a box other than the one they deserve. I don't do great with labels knowing full well I don't exactly fit one either. I didn't really give MariaEvri's post a true thought because it was too simplistic in nature to be true. I took it in stride but decided that tone is where the thread is. No need for me to get all long winded in a post.
You seemed to have taken me the wrong way. I am not a passive aggressive patronizing bitch. Just a direct one. :P
Quote from: Medusa on July 22, 2011, 08:09:38 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 22, 2011, 10:16:54 AM
Medusa please cut out the patronising comments, you don't know us very well yet, so ask, don't presume. Just because you go around putting people in boxes don't presume others do. If you don't agree with what somebody says then explain why, don't just dismisss them with a 'holier than though' put down, which is exactly what you did to MariaEvri.
Well first I'd like to point out I was trying not to be patronizing. In fact that's why I added the smiley and the reference to King of the Hill. My point in my post was this: THIS is not the forum for me to express my thoughts on that particular subject. There is no need. I don't like to just speak to hear the sound of my own voice as it where. I want to converse and not convert to my way of thinking. Patronizing is something passive aggressive people do. I am not one. If I think you are full of bullshit. I will tell you so in no uncertain terms. I also made a point to mention that it might be in jest or in all seriousness. And since I do not know the members well enough just decided to chuck it and keep the conversation laid back.
I do not put anyone in a box other than the one they deserve. I don't do great with labels knowing full well I don't exactly fit one either. I didn't really give MariaEvri's post a true thought because it was too simplistic in nature to be true. I took it in stride but decided that tone is where the thread is. No need for me to get all long winded in a post.
You seemed to have taken me the wrong way. I am not a passive aggressive patronizing bitch. Just a direct one. :P
Fair enough. However I would like to know how one determines the box a person should be in ;)
Whether you intended to appear patronising or not, that is how you came over in that post, just sayin'. I'm sure we've all been read the wrong way at some time or another, I know I have, it's the nature of the beast in forum land isn't it?
QuoteFair enough. However I would like to know how one determines the box a person should be in
This will probably be off topic. As a Satanist I follow the rule: Treat others the way they deserve to be treated.If someone puts themselves in the dummy box..then that's what they get. Someone puts themselves in the respected box by their deeds etc, then they get my full respect. I normally try to be neutral of these things until I see how they play out.
Quote from: Medusa on July 22, 2011, 08:09:38 PMTHIS is not the forum for me to express my thoughts on that particular subject. There is no need. I don't like to just speak to hear the sound of my own voice as it where. I want to converse and not convert to my way of thinking.
Was it just that one person that makes you think you cannot discuss those things here? I ask because I discuss things on forums not just for the betterment of myself or to convert the other person, but for the spectators as well. I know this is off topic, but I was interested in reading what you had to say on the matter and what you would bring in support of it, even if I'm not going to discuss it with you.
Quote from: Davin on July 22, 2011, 08:57:54 PM
Quote from: Medusa on July 22, 2011, 08:09:38 PMTHIS is not the forum for me to express my thoughts on that particular subject. There is no need. I don't like to just speak to hear the sound of my own voice as it where. I want to converse and not convert to my way of thinking.
Was it just that one person that makes you think you cannot discuss those things here? I ask because I discuss things on forums not just for the betterment of myself or to convert the other person, but for the spectators as well. I know this is off topic, but I was interested in reading what you had to say on the matter and what you would bring in support of it, even if I'm not going to discuss it with you.
I think the one post sorta put me off to attempting to explain my position. Like I said, I am not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking. But I also didn't want to take over someone's thread either. I will say I get a tad hesitant to talk about my dealings with Islam. But maybe when Monday comes around I'll get back to answering those specific circumstances. Friday through Monday night I work straight through till about midnight nightly waitressing at a bowling alley. I'm swamped all weekend!
QuoteI think the one post sorta put me off to attempting to explain my position...
I did not read the replies, but if it is about my post, I would like to apologize for putting you off. I only wanted to express what I (me alone, not representing anyone else) made of islam by 27 years of hearing about it. I am not interest din discussion, I only wanted to post my opinion. Since I am not interested in discussing islam, please ignore my previous post. There are many people in this forum more talkative than me that really do want to discuss with you.
I also apologize if my post seemed like an attack on you or anything personal.
I think we all should have a big hug now, I don't want to stand next to Tank though, those tracks of his really trash your shoes.
I don't have shoes yet.
Someone needs to make you shoes, Pudding.