This is my first topic on the big boy boards and mainly the whole reason I came to this board. I would like to debate with anyone who is up for it. As many of you support your beliefs with the others, I only have my experience to support mine. Anyways I have a few points and questions. First question, Why do people believe there is no God? God is not defined, like me or you, the idea itself exists, obviously, and people cannot create ideas, as much as you would like to believe ideas are created, I personally feel that they are discovered and manipulated. My other question is if you don't believe in religions, is it because of what you see they do to people, or really what the people do to people?
I do not believe in things that aren't supported by evidence...that includes both religion and god.
The very fact that you even admit to not knowing how to define god is reason enough to not claim to have a belief in it...you can't believe in what you can't define; you have to at least have some idea of what it is and how it differs from other ideas.
People believed the Earth was the centre of the universe and flat.
Thunder and lightning were signs of an angry god.
I think these ideas were created by people, they weren't floating around in the ether.
If separate people come to the same erroneous conclusion it's not surprising, they share similar brains and experience.
I've seen no reason to believe there is a god and a lot of reasons to think theists are fooling themselves.
Even if god exists, he didn't combine milk, eggs, corn starch, sugar, vanilla extract, salt, and flavoring... man did that. Therefore, even if god does exist, his abilities pale in comparison to man's, as man created pudding.
Quote from: fester30 on June 25, 2011, 08:44:38 AMas man created pudding.
...Then Satan added magic and we got ourselves TMP :P
Quote from: bicycle]First question, Why do people believe there is no God?
Well, I, for one do not believe in god, not as you put it "believe there is no god"
It is interesting though, how you assumed that it was an active belief in wording of your question... How very christian of you...
QuoteMy other question is if you don't believe in religions, is it because of what you see they do to people, or really what the people do to people?
I do not believe in gods because I do not have any half-decent reason to. I do not support organized religion because people in a flock have the combined IQ of a cucumber and the individuality of a worker ant.
Yes I was created by god and Satan.
Their estrangement does trouble me.
I hope to get the folks together in the same room one day.
Then I'll lock the doors and torch it.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on June 25, 2011, 09:10:53 AMThen I'll lock the doors and torch it.
Ah, but surely you would let Asmodean test a few execution gas formulas he has been devising for these past years first..? *popcorn emoticon*
Quote from: Asmodean on June 25, 2011, 09:19:16 AM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on June 25, 2011, 09:10:53 AMThen I'll lock the doors and torch it.
Ah, but surely you would let Asmodean test a few execution gas formulas he has been devising for these past years first..? *popcorn emoticon*
No, but you can have all the wiggly inside bits you like so much.
I'll be keeping the Devil tail and horns.
Always wanted a tail.
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 01:39:21 AM
This is my first topic on the big boy boards and mainly the whole reason I came to this board. I would like to debate with anyone who is up for it. As many of you support your beliefs with the others, I only have my experience to support mine. Anyways I have a few points and questions. First question, Why do people believe there is no God? God is not defined, like me or you, the idea itself exists, obviously, and people cannot create ideas, as much as you would like to believe ideas are created, I personally feel that they are discovered and manipulated. My other question is if you don't believe in religions, is it because of what you see they do to people, or really what the people do to people?
When God has been accurately defined and ALL theists (Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists etc.) agree to that single definition I will start to pay attention to the definition and claims. Until then I'll let the tribalists fight amongst themselves and attempt to limit the damage that they do to humanity.
If a person wants to be a deist and makes no inferences on the way humanity should behave based on their view of their deity then fine. But once a person claims to 'know the will of God', they lose all credibility in my eyes.
Whitney hit the nail. Ya gotta define something in order to debate it.
QuoteAnyways I have a few points and questions. First question, Why do people believe there is no God?
It might be a good idea to actually read what the "big boys" have said instead of trying to up a post count to ask a question that's been answered here many many times.
QuoteGod is not defined,
Really? So theists believe in a non-concept?
Quotelike me or you,
Humans aren't defined? Or individual humans aren't defined? Come on now...
Quotethe idea itself exists, obviously, and people cannot create ideas, as much as you would like to believe ideas are created
If there were no person on earth that could think of an idea or concept, in other words, quite brain dead, how could an idea exist, let alone the idea of a god exist?
QuoteI personally feel that they are discovered and manipulated.
So a guy can discover the idea of making chocolate ice cream, but when he can't find cocoa, how can....jeeez dude.
QuoteMy other question is if you don't believe in religions, is it because of what you see they do to people, or really what the people do to people?
Gosh, now I'm not so sure. It could be that I've just stumbled on an idea (that was already out there) that people may have manipulated my previous idea (that was also already out there, I just manipulated it) in my idea (sorry not MY idea, i only manipulate it because it already existed).....
ummmm.....
I have a headache. I am going to manipulate an idea that I just rediscovered to take a pain reliever.
Quote from: Whitney on June 25, 2011, 03:39:13 AM
I do not believe in things that aren't supported by evidence...that includes both religion and god.
The very fact that you even admit to not knowing how to define god is reason enough to not claim to have a belief in it...you can't believe in what you can't define; you have to at least have some idea of what it is and how it differs from other ideas.
So what would constitute as evidence if there was a God?
Quote from: Tank on June 25, 2011, 09:35:20 AM
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 01:39:21 AM
This is my first topic on the big boy boards and mainly the whole reason I came to this board. I would like to debate with anyone who is up for it. As many of you support your beliefs with the others, I only have my experience to support mine. Anyways I have a few points and questions. First question, Why do people believe there is no God? God is not defined, like me or you, the idea itself exists, obviously, and people cannot create ideas, as much as you would like to believe ideas are created, I personally feel that they are discovered and manipulated. My other question is if you don't believe in religions, is it because of what you see they do to people, or really what the people do to people?
When God has been accurately defined and ALL theists (Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists etc.) agree to that single definition I will start to pay attention to the definition and claims. Until then I'll let the tribalists fight amongst themselves and attempt to limit the damage that they do to humanity.
If a person wants to be a deist and makes no inferences on the way humanity should behave based on their view of their deity then fine. But once a person claims to 'know the will of God', they lose all credibility in my eyes.
Why and how could someone know the will of God? That would not make any sense
Quote from: Whitney on June 25, 2011, 03:39:13 AM
I do not believe in things that aren't supported by evidence...that includes both religion and god.
The very fact that you even admit to not knowing how to define god is reason enough to not claim to have a belief in it...you can't believe in what you can't define; you have to at least have some idea of what it is and how it differs from other ideas.
okay, good point, can you define yourself? please be complete in your definition, otherwise I will not believe you exist...
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on June 25, 2011, 05:55:30 AM
People believed the Earth was the centre of the universe and flat.
Thunder and lightning were signs of an angry god.
I think these ideas were created by people, they weren't floating around in the ether.
If separate people come to the same erroneous conclusion it's not surprising, they share similar brains and experience.
I've seen no reason to believe there is a god and a lot of reasons to think theists are fooling themselves.
If those ideas were purely created, then why would someone need a perspective in order to come up with them?
Quote from: fester30 on June 25, 2011, 08:44:38 AM
Even if god exists, he didn't combine milk, eggs, corn starch, sugar, vanilla extract, salt, and flavoring... man did that. Therefore, even if god does exist, his abilities pale in comparison to man's, as man created pudding.
So you're saying man is better than God becuase he created pudding? Theist believe God created man.. man > pudding
Quote from: Asmodean on June 25, 2011, 09:00:41 AM
Quote from: fester30 on June 25, 2011, 08:44:38 AMas man created pudding.
...Then Satan added magic and we got ourselves TMP :P
Quote from: bicycle]First question, Why do people believe there is no God?
Well, I, for one do not believe in god, not as you put it "believe there is no god"
What are you talking about?
It is interesting though, how you assumed that it was an active belief in wording of your question... How very christian of you...
Thanks for the snide remark lol be happy man, enlighten me
QuoteMy other question is if you don't believe in religions, is it because of what you see they do to people, or really what the people do to people?
I do not believe in gods because I do not have any half-decent reason to. I do not support organized religion because people in a flock have the combined IQ of a cucumber and the individuality of a worker ant.
Then what is atheism? not a flock of people with the same belief, that's not hypocritical...
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on June 25, 2011, 09:10:53 AM
Yes I was created by god and Satan.
Their estrangement does trouble me.
I hope to get the folks together in the same room one day.
Then I'll lock the doors and torch it.
IDK what your talking about but that's not very positive...issues
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:21:05 PMSo you're saying man is better than God becuase he created pudding? Theist believe God created man.. man > pudding
...And if I make a pudding with greater volume, height, depth and/or width than a man, the equasion will be man<pudding. If you are trying to have serious discussion, you should avoid using mathematical symbols like a ten year old.
Quoteokay, good point, can you define yourself? please be complete in your definition, otherwise I will not believe you exist...
At risk of sounding mildly rude, who cares whether or not you believe she - or I or anyone else for that matter - exists?
That said, here is a little definition of I: I am the sum of particles that define the body and the sum of electrochemical impulses and reactions that animate it. I believe in terms of physics, chemistry and biology, this definition is relatively good for being so short and simple.
Quote from: Asmodean on June 25, 2011, 04:30:08 PM
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:21:05 PMSo you're saying man is better than God becuase he created pudding? Theist believe God created man.. man > pudding
...And if I make a pudding with greater volume, height, depth and/or width than a man, the equasion will be man<pudding. If you are trying to have serious discussion, you should avoid using mathematical symbols like a ten year old.
I don't know any ten year olds that use mathematical symbols but okay...
Quoteokay, good point, can you define yourself? please be complete in your definition, otherwise I will not believe you exist...
At risk of sounding mildly rude, who cares whether or not you believe she - or I or anyone else for that matter - exists?
That said, here is a little definition of I: I am the sum of particles that define the body and the sum of electrochemical impulses and reactions that animate it. I believe in terms of physics, chemistry and biology, this definition is relatively good for being so short and simple.
that's it? you don't have a name? or a place you live? your not completely defining yourself, it's actually impossible...
so far I've heard you can't believe in something that's not completely defined and yet no one can completely define themselves...
You guys have some weird attitudes? be happy, it's just a conversation, no need to call me a ten year old or not care about anything...it's not whether I care if you exist but rather if you care that you exist...
I'll try and sort this mess out...
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:24:27 PMWhat are you talking about?
Implications. Your wording carries different ones to mine.
QuoteThanks for the snide remark lol be happy man, enlighten me
I neither want nor can. Enlighten yourself, if you care to. All I can do is answer you to the best of my abilities, wisdom and knowledge.
QuoteThen what is atheism? not a flock of people with the same belief, that's not hypocritical...
An atheist is a person who does not believe in the existence of any given, multiple or all deities with various degrees of conviction. It's an umbrella term, like theist is an umbrella term for someone who does believe in god(s)
Atheism is not a flock. Even religion is not. A congregation is a flock. See the difference?
Atheism is not a religion. It is not even a life philosophy, really.
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:32:09 PM
that's it? you don't have a name? or a place you live? your not completely defining yourself, it's actually impossible...
My name does not define me any more than the letter x defines an unknown variable. It's just a name for easy reference.
My place to live is a secondary characteristic as it is outside the sum particles that are my makeup.
Quote from: Asmodean on June 25, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
I'll try and sort this mess out...
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:24:27 PMWhat are you talking about?
Implications. Your wording carries different ones to mine.
I get that, but what is the difference between not believing in god and believing there is no god?
QuoteThanks for the snide remark lol be happy man, enlighten me
I neither want nor can. Enlighten yourself, if you care to. All I can do is answer you to the best of my abilities, wisdom and knowledge.
This is how I am enlightening myself by learning from others, I need others help obviously...
QuoteThen what is atheism? not a flock of people with the same belief, that's not hypocritical...
An atheist is a person who does not believe in the existence of any given, multiple or all deities with various degrees of conviction. It's an umbrella term, like theist is an umbrella term for someone who does believe in god(s)
Atheism is not a flock. Even religion is not. A congregation is a flock. See the difference?
Atheism is not a religion. It is not even a life philosophy, really.
but here you are on a board of atheists, how is that not a congregation?
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:36:11 PM
You guys have some weird attitudes? be happy, it's just a conversation, no need to call me a ten year old or not care about anything...it's not whether I care if you exist but rather if you care that you exist...
I did not call you a ten year old. That line would look like this: "You are a ten year old", not like what I wrote.
Yes, I care about continuation of my existence, but I do not require you to do the same, which you have implied in your post, although not directed at me, and to which I responded from my point of view.
Quote from: Asmodean on June 25, 2011, 04:44:09 PM
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:36:11 PM
You guys have some weird attitudes? be happy, it's just a conversation, no need to call me a ten year old or not care about anything...it's not whether I care if you exist but rather if you care that you exist...
I did not call you a ten year old. That line would look like this: "You are a ten year old", not like what I wrote.
Yes, I care about continuation of my existence, but I do not require you to do the same, which you have implied in your post, although not directed at me, and to which I responded from my point of view.
lol okay thanks...I guess it only matters what I hear not what you say, from my point of view, the only thing I implied by "rather you care if you exist," is that you said, "who cares..." that was my response.
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:42:07 PMI get that, but what is the difference between not believing in god and believing there is no god?
Explained. Try looking through my posts in your threads.
QuoteThis is how I am enlightening myself by learning from others, I need others help obviously...
I can offer you some help, sure, but what to do with the information I or others give you is up to you to decide. Thus, we can not enlighten you, but yes, we can help you enlighten yourself.
Quotebut here you are on a board of atheists, how is that not a congregation?
Oh, we may well be a flock. We are, in certain ways. And yes, many of us are atheists, but we are a flock because we are participating in the same discussion club - not because we have a collective opinion. That, we do not.
Quote from: Asmodean on June 25, 2011, 04:40:17 PM
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:32:09 PM
that's it? you don't have a name? or a place you live? your not completely defining yourself, it's actually impossible...
My name does not define me any more than the letter x defines an unknown variable. It's just a name for easy reference.
My place to live is a secondary characteristic as it is outside the sum particles that are my makeup.
That's my point, you can't comletely define yourself, like you said you can't believe in something that's not completely defined...
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:25:41 PM
IDK what your talking about but that's not very positive...issues
I've heard of people who have lost people close to them, perhaps through suicide, their loved ones fate is eternal torture. Some caring types find this hard to live with. Jesus, Thor Zeus, Satan, I think where better off without all of em.
Quote from: Asmodean on June 25, 2011, 04:47:58 PM
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:42:07 PMI get that, but what is the difference between not believing in god and believing there is no god?
Explained. Try looking through my posts in your threads.
I didn't find anything...
QuoteThis is how I am enlightening myself by learning from others, I need others help obviously...
I can offer you some help, sure, but what to do with the information I or others give you is up to you to decide. Thus, we can not enlighten you, but yes, we can help you enlighten yourself.
Quotebut here you are on a board of atheists, how is that not a congregation?
Oh, we may well be a flock. We are, in certain ways. And yes, many of us are atheists, but we are a flock because we are participating in the same discussion club - not because we have a collective opinion. That, we do not.
neither do people who believe in god.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on June 25, 2011, 04:50:20 PM
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:25:41 PM
IDK what your talking about but that's not very positive...issues
I've heard of people who have lost people close to them, perhaps through suicide, their loved ones fate is eternal torture. Some caring types find this hard to live with. Jesus, Thor Zeus, Satan, I think where better off without all of em.
I would disagree with all that which you have said...and yet I'm not atheist...
People can try to scare others into doing what they want, that doesn't mean that is good...
That sounds sacrilegious IMO
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:52:03 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on June 25, 2011, 04:50:20 PM
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:25:41 PM
IDK what your talking about but that's not very positive...issues
I've heard of people who have lost people close to them, perhaps through suicide, their loved ones fate is eternal torture. Some caring types find this hard to live with. Jesus, Thor Zeus, Satan, I think where better off without all of em.
I would disagree with all that which you have said...and yet I'm not atheist...
you make it seem like in order to believe in God you have to believe in hell or the devil..
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:48:57 PM
That's my point, you can't comletely define yourself, like you said you can't believe in something that's not completely defined...
I've never completely believed in me, always held more respect for those who don't know.
I can't be hit because I'm no where in particular, I see you have no ground below your feet, I have no feet. Om.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on June 25, 2011, 05:07:41 PM
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:48:57 PM
That's my point, you can't comletely define yourself, like you said you can't believe in something that's not completely defined...
I've never completely believed in me, always held more respect for those who don't know.
I can't be hit because I'm no where in particular, I see you have no ground below your feet, I have no feet. Om.
So your not completely atheist?
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 05:11:49 PM
So your not completely atheist?
No, not completely.
how?
I think there's this god, ya know, he's realllly big, and he's been wotchin right, and he don't like the killen and stuff and he wants us to snap to his whim, and you know, we're just not do'in it right but I'm going to have to stab you in the liver but that's OK right, ye.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on June 25, 2011, 06:15:01 PM
I think there's this god, ya know, he's realllly big, and he's been wotchin right, and he don't like the killen and stuff and he wants us to snap to his whim, and you know, we're just not do'in it right but I'm going to have to stab you in the liver but that's OK right, ye.
That's what people want...how would you know what god wants? If "God's will be done" then he wants us to suffer, which does happen right?
Is it not in the best interest of mankind to not kill each other over BS?
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 06:19:13 PM
Is it not in the best interest of mankind to not kill each other over BS?
I always skip an extra skip when I hear an especially stupid Christian blarb.
how am I a christian?
great argument BTW ::)
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 06:33:38 PM
how am I a christian?
It's just the way it goes, the spot is upon you, no escaping it.
Troll
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:17:06 PM
okay, good point, can you define yourself? please be complete in your definition, otherwise I will not believe you exist...
I could define myself as a homo sapiens of the Caucasian female variety then go further to describe my unique characteristics which set me apart from other homo sapiens. I'm not going to describe myself in the level of detail necessary to set me apart from all other people on the earth on the internet since I value what little privacy I have left from being so open online.
Have you bothered thinking about this much because it took me a whole two seconds to start defining myself.
Quote from: Whitney on June 25, 2011, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:17:06 PM
okay, good point, can you define yourself? please be complete in your definition, otherwise I will not believe you exist...
I could define myself as a homo sapiens of the Caucasian female variety then go further to describe my unique characteristics which set me apart from other homo sapiens. I'm not going to describe myself in the level of detail necessary to set me apart from all other people on the earth on the internet since I value what little privacy I have left from being so open online.
Have you bothered thinking about this much because it took me a whole two seconds to start defining myself.
Ya, you basically proved my point, that God cannot be defined as much as yourself cannot be defined...you still haven't defined yourself and you never will.
Edit:
Quote from: Whitney on June 25, 2011, 03:39:13 AM
I do not believe in things that aren't supported by evidence...that includes both religion and god.
The very fact that you even admit to not knowing how to define god is reason enough to not claim to have a belief in it...you can't believe in what you can't define; you have to at least have some idea of what it is and how it differs from other ideas.
That also includes yourself, you cannot completely define yourself. religion can easily be defined: 1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods. 2. Details of belief as taught or discussed.
There is no evidence that OJ killed his wife either, guess it never happened ::) evidence for God existing would mean there would be no belief in God, just fact...
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 07:21:01 PM
Ya, you basically proved my point, that God cannot be defined as much as yourself cannot be defined...you still haven't defined yourself and you never will.
Frankly I don't care if you don't understand how definitions work. I'm certainly not going to define myself in great detail on a public forum. If I believed in a god, however, I would be able to define what it was that I think a god is to the extent necessary for someone to decide if they also believe in it.
If your point is you believe in something that even you don't know how to describe then I'll just assume you like the word god yet don't know what one is...that's your prerogative.
Quote from: Whitney on June 25, 2011, 07:50:26 PM
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 07:21:01 PM
Ya, you basically proved my point, that God cannot be defined as much as yourself cannot be defined...you still haven't defined yourself and you never will.
Frankly I don't care if you don't understand how definitions work. I'm certainly not going to define myself in great detail on a public forum. If I believed in a god, however, I would be able to define what it was that I think a god is to the extent necessary for someone to decide if they also believe in it.
If your point is you believe in something that even you don't know how to describe then I'll just assume you like the word god yet don't know what one is...that's your prerogative.
I can describe God, but no I cannot define God just like nothing can define me...You can describe yourself all you want, and I don't care if you don't know how describing works, you certainly never defined yourself, sorry admin nice try though...
I suggest that you correct your attitude because you are not going to be allowed to stick around much longer if you are going to troll by pretending that words like define and describe have different meanings.
Quote from: Whitney on June 25, 2011, 08:35:49 PM
I suggest that you correct your attitude because you are not going to be allowed to stick around much longer if you are going to troll by pretending that words like define and describe have different meanings.
well let me defend myself at least,
def·i·ni·tion/ˌdefəˈniSHən/Noun
1. A statement of the exact meaning of a word, esp. in a dictionary.
2. An exact statement or description of the nature, scope, or meaning of something.
de·scrip·tion/diˈskripSHən/Noun
1. A spoken or written representation or account of a person, object, or event: "people who had seen him were able to give a description".
2. The action of giving such a representation or account.
Do you see the difference?
EDit:
If it will make you happy I will "define" God: The ultimate perspective; Reasoning for existence; the force; time+energy; etc. etc. you could put Kharma in there if you want...
What are your basis for believing in god if you can't adequelty define him?
QuoteIf it will make you happy I will "define" God: The ultimate perspective; Reasoning for existence; the force; time+energy; etc. etc. you could put Kharma in there if you want...
Um...why worship the ultimate perspective; reasoning for existence; the force; time+energy; Kharma etc.
(though I do like karma ;D )
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 26, 2011, 12:53:32 AM
What are your basis for believing in god if you can't adequelty define him?
My response to this, has been, you can't adequately define yourself, so why would you be able to do it to God? The truth is, there is a difference in describing something and defining it. Definitions are for words...
Quote
Um...why worship the ultimate perspective; reasoning for existence; the force; time+energy; Kharma etc.
Worship is also a word that probably a lot of people don't like, why not try 'respect' do you respect Karma?
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 02:12:37 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 26, 2011, 12:53:32 AM
What are your basis for believing in god if you can't adequelty define him?
My response to this, has been, you can't adequately define yourself, so why would you be able to do it to God? The truth is, there is a difference in describing something and defining it. Definitions are for words...
I don't need to define myself to you to show you that I exist. Do you see my writing this post as evidence for my existence? Is it in any way ambiguous?
QuoteWorship is also a word that probably a lot of people don't like, why not try 'respect' do you respect Karma?
I like the concept, but don't see it as anything supernatural. It's more a probabilistic consequence. If you keep doing bad things, chances are they will bite you in the future. Live by the sword, die by the sword...that sort of thing.
I feel as if you are making us all suffer, and your mutiple posts are very borderline trolling. I feel as if your preaching and generalizing athiests without knowing a single thing about the word.
QuoteI feel as if you are making us all suffer, and your mutiple posts are very borderline trolling. I feel as if your preaching and generalizing athiests without knowing a single thing about the word.
Okay, sorry for preaching, I'm getting used to this board just give me a break, I'm just debating, and have had some sarcasm and snide remarks thrown at me so don't blame me...
Quote
I don't need to define myself to you to show you that I exist.
Then why did I have to define God?
Quote
I like the concept, but don't see it as anything supernatural. It's more a probabilistic consequence. If you keep doing bad things, chances are they will bite you in the future. Live by the sword, die by the sword...that sort of thing.
Really? So you can believe in it because you like it? How can you prove karma exists?
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 08:39:04 PM
Do you see the difference?
no, what i do see is that you are able to mine dictionaries in order to present the false appearance that there is a marked difference between two words. Aside from a definition being more formal in usage there is no practical difference between the two words. Are you done playing with semantics?
Descriptions are for someone or something, Definitions are for words.
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 03:12:23 AM
Okay, sorry for preaching, I'm getting used to this board just give me a break, I'm just debating, and have had some sarcasm and snide remarks thrown at me so don't blame me...
Well, you did say you wanted to play with the big boys.
QuoteThen why did I have to define God?
Because one cannot debate about the gods without defining them. As for defining ourselves, that is not within the realm of this forum. Because you cannot define god and claiming that we cannot define ourselves sets up several logical fallacies.
In a debate, when one side makes assertions, it is expected of them to provide evidence of the assertions. You have not done this. This makes me come to two conclusions - either your debating skills are rudimentary, or you come here to purposefully set up logical fallacies to hide behind.
You can assuage this by debating properly. Doing this might allow you to stay here longer as well...*shrugs*
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 03:19:51 AM
Descriptions are for someone or something, Definitions are for words.
and there is a marked difference between the two how? You are the one claiming we can't define ourselves...there certainly are definitions for every descriptive word we could use to define what we are as individuals.
Do you see why you sound like a huge troll and why the words can easily be used interchangeably? Especially when you play stupid games like requiring that strangers on a forum define every last detail of themselves simply to disprove YOUR claim that you can't define your own god...
if you want to play games this isn't the place.
I'm not playing games, I simply asked why I would need to completely define God in order to argue existence of God, when it is known that words cannot define a person, no matter what...
Quote
Then why did I have to define God?
Is there concrete proof that god exists? If he's written you something, preferably signed 'God', then please show me.
The word 'god' exists, describe what the word means so people can tell you why they don't see it the same way.
QuoteReally? So you can believe in it because you like it? How can you prove karma exists?
::) I never said I
believe in it. If it were a concrete thing it would at least have to be consistent. But this is going on a tangent that really has nothing to do with anything since I'm not arguing for the existence of a concrete 'karma' outside the realm of ideas.
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 03:30:45 AM
I simply asked why I would need to completely define God in order to argue existence of God
You were the one who said you can't define your own god....how far you can define it affects only the ability of others to confirm that they believe in it or not. So, yes, you are playing games
Quoteit is known that words cannot define a person, no matter what...
this has yet to be proven.
Again..frankly, I don't care if you can define your god or not nor if you think we can define ourselves. The only reason I've even bothering is to try to figure out if you are being sincere or not as it affects how I handle you as a moderator.
So am I being sincere? I don't see how I haven't been sincere...I have followed all of your rules and simply have asked questions, what else do you want? I answered the ones you have given me.
Quote
I simply asked why I would need to completely define God in order to argue existence of God
You said because how far you can define it affects only the ability of others to confirm that they believe in it or not. Okay that's fair, so do you believe the truth exists? I cannot fully define the truth so your ability to confirm whether to believe in it or not is futile...You must not believe there is any truth... am I wrong?
Quote
You were the one who said you can't define your own god....how far you can define it affects only the ability of others to confirm that they believe in it or not. So, yes, you are playing games
So I am playing games simply because of what? I answered your question? Tell me what I did to cause you to believe I am "playing games" or messing around on this forum, I am trying the best I can to argue my point against yours, what are you doing?
I, nor anyone else, brought up your lack of ability to define your god as that was all you...it's your game. Perhaps you should start over?
Bicycle, the reason people are asking you to define 'god' is because it can really be an ambiguous word when used by different people. For instance, I once read a snippet where some guy said that "god was the love that kept the planets going around the sun". Weird definition, but that's how he described it at that time. People who don't believe in gods (and even some that do) would probably think that ridiculous and wonder why he's calling 'gravity' by a loaded word (god).
My point being, if you want to know why people don't agree with you, have have to give us more than just "why don't you believe in god". What is this god? The Abrahamic god or a god of another religion? The deistic god? Pantheistic? Panpsychism? How do you see god?
Do you see where I'm getting at?
Has anyone else ever worn a hat after getting a bad hair cut?
Quote from: Whitney on June 26, 2011, 05:58:19 AM
I, nor anyone else, brought up your lack of ability to define your god as that was all you...it's your game. Perhaps you should start over?
What does that have to do with what I just said? Did you ignore everything? But I'm the one playing games ::)
If you want to say I can't believe in something I can't define, I might as well not believe in myself or anyone else. The world is just a coincidence and everything happens randomly ::)
Have it your way LOL
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 26, 2011, 06:06:09 AM
Bicycle, the reason people are asking you to define 'god' is because it can really be an ambiguous word when used by different people. For instance, I once read a snippet where some guy said that "god was the love that kept the planets going around the sun". Weird definition, but that's how he described it at that time. People who don't believe in gods (and even some that do) would probably think that ridiculous and wonder why he's calling 'gravity' by a loaded word (god).
My point being, if you want to know why people don't agree with you, have have to give us more than just "why don't you believe in god". What is this god? The Abrahamic god or a god of another religion? The deistic god? Pantheistic? Panpsychism? How do you see god?
Do you see where I'm getting at?
Yes I see what you are getting at, I actually understand what the man you heard of is saying...If you don't, that's your problem. I could elaborate but I suppose it's just worthless and stupid ::)
QuoteMy point being, if you want to know why people don't agree with you, have have to give us more than just "why don't you believe in god".
Why don't you just answer the question? That isn't my response to why people don't agree with me, it's just a question... As for, what this God is, it is IMO the ultimate perspective, the truth, the relativity between all things, the reason you get a chance to live. It is not a person, or a place, or a thing, but rather a person, a place, and a thing. God is the reason for the big bang, the reason for all the madness. The fairness between life and death and beyond.
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:17:06 PM
okay, good point, can you define yourself? please be complete in your definition, otherwise I will not believe you exist...
Quote
Ya, you basically proved my point, that God cannot be defined as much as yourself cannot be defined...you still haven't defined yourself and you never will.
I have to respond, but I'm now thinking you are simply a troll. We could all define ourselves in great detail, but I doubt anybody will over the internet. Your logic is making me certain you are either a troll or a simple 13 year old.
Quote
The very fact that you even admit to not knowing how to define god is reason enough to not claim to have a belief in it...you can't believe in what you can't define; you have to at least have some idea of what it is and how it differs from other ideas.
God is what the religious say god is. So yes, we can all define ANY ITERATION of god and say it's bogus.
QuoteThat also includes yourself, you cannot completely define yourself. religion can easily be defined: 1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods. 2. Details of belief as taught or discussed.
Nobody is debating if "religion" exists. At the expense of getting banned, I hope you are simply a troll, rather than simply being that dumb. But the above quoted statement makes me believe the latter.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on June 26, 2011, 06:11:57 AM
Has anyone else ever worn a hat after getting a bad hair cut?
XD me, three days ago. It wasn't a bad cut, but I haven't had short hair in 2years. I'm fine now :D
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 06:21:40 AM
If you want to say I can't believe in something I can't define, I might as well not believe in myself or anyone else. The world is just a coincidence and everything happens randomly ::)
Have it your way LOL
Your inability to define things is not of my concern...but it doesn't mean others are in the same boat as you.
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 06:21:40 AMGod is the reason for the big bang, the reason for all the madness. The fairness between life and death and beyond.
God as everything is hard to argue with, but I think it's easier to just say "everything".
I haven't seen any evidence that everything has an intent.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 26, 2011, 06:50:32 AM
XD me, three days ago. It wasn't a bad cut, but I haven't had short hair in 2years. I'm fine now :D
I'm glad it's fine now.
Quote from: Whitney on June 26, 2011, 06:54:14 AM
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 06:21:40 AM
If you want to say I can't believe in something I can't define, I might as well not believe in myself or anyone else. The world is just a coincidence and everything happens randomly ::)
Have it your way LOL
Your inability to define things is not of my concern...but it doesn't mean others are in the same boat as you.
I would like to add that we don't need to define ourselves to believe we exist. The simple fact I can see my girlfriend sitting next to me is enough evidence to make me believe she exists. Granted, simply seeing something is not always enough to make me believe. This line of reasoning has the vague semblance to a legitimate philosophical thought process, hence my response. I imagine this was simply a fluke though.
I'm not sure why i'm still up. Maybe I have hope our wisdom won't keep flying over bicycle's head.
Thanks Magic puddin'
I'm in the mood for tea, earl grey, hot. Make it so :D
To bicycle, I seriously wish to know your age....because I have a feeling.
QuoteYes I see what you are getting at, I actually understand what the man you heard of is saying...If you don't, that's your problem. I could elaborate but I suppose it's just worthless and stupid ::)
I would say that it's unnecessary to call gravity "god".
QuoteWhy don't you just answer the question? That isn't my response to why people don't agree with me, it's just a question... As for, what this God is, it is IMO the ultimate perspective, the truth, the relativity between all things, the reason you get a chance to live. It is not a person, or a place, or a thing, but rather a person, a place, and a thing. God is the reason for the big bang, the reason for all the madness. The fairness between life and death and beyond.
I don't think that "everything" or "existence" "truth" is intelligent and consciously capable of creating a universe. I like pantheism (atheistic pantheism - reality is not intelligent). I wouldn't call gravity intelligent either or give it an emotional quality.
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:48:57 PMThat's my point, you can't comletely define yourself, like you said you can't believe in something that's not completely defined...
Of course, I can. I did.
I gave you the primary defining characteristics. If you are looking to define me
the person as opposed to me
the biocomputer in a philosophical way, well, that's not hard:
I, the person, am the sum of all primary defining characteristics and all outside influences, past or present.
You can combine both definitions to define both aspects, although I see no need in doing so.
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 01:39:21 AMThis is my first topic on the big boy boards and mainly the whole reason I came to this board. I would like to debate with anyone who is up for it. As many of you support your beliefs with the others, I only have my experience to support mine. Anyways I have a few points and questions. First question, Why do people believe there is no God? God is not defined, like me or you, the idea itself exists, obviously, and people cannot create ideas, as much as you would like to believe ideas are created, I personally feel that they are discovered and manipulated. My other question is if you don't believe in religions, is it because of what you see they do to people, or really what the people do to people?
There are more than a few problems with your questions.
"First question, Why do people believe there is no God? God is not defined, like me or you, the idea itself exists, obviously, and people cannot create ideas, as much as you would like to believe ideas are created, I personally feel that they are discovered and manipulated."
The question should only be answered by people that believe there is no god, most atheists do not fall into this category. My answer to this would be that one believes there is no god because for thousands of years, no reasonable evidence has been provided of said god. I would liken it to the same reason why one believes there is no Santa.
The statement after it is a long drawn out, unclear, run-on sentence. But you do make some claims about the god you believe in which leads me to disregard your concept: "God is not defined[...]" If god is not defined, then there is no reason to posit the existence of it.
You state that people cannot create ideas, you will need to support this claim, because in your statement you've only supported with what you personally feel. Anecdotal evidence is only useful to the person providing it because it cannot be demonstrated to, verified by or tested by other people.
"My other question is if you don't believe in religions, is it because of what you see they do to people, or really what the people do to people?"
Religions exist, I don't know of anyone who claims they don't.
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:42:07 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on June 25, 2011, 04:37:40 PM
QuoteThen what is atheism? not a flock of people with the same belief, that's not hypocritical...
An atheist is a person who does not believe in the existence of any given, multiple or all deities with various degrees of conviction. It's an umbrella term, like theist is an umbrella term for someone who does believe in god(s)
Atheism is not a flock. Even religion is not. A congregation is a flock. See the difference?
Atheism is not a religion. It is not even a life philosophy, really.
but here you are on a board of atheists, how is that not a congregation?
I wonder what you would call yourself then? Another atheist in the congregation? Are you not also on this board? There are many Christians and some Muslims and various other people that post on these boards.
Look back to your statement that was replied to: "Then what is atheism? not a flock of people with the same belief, that's not hypocritical..." Not only is this incorrect in itself, but your reply to it changed from that to merely a congregation. It is incorrect in itself because atheism is the lack of a belief in a god or gods and therefore cannot be a belief... unless you want to explain how the lack of belief in something is somehow a belief.
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:13:00 PMSo what would constitute as evidence if there was a God?
You're making a claim that a god exists, you're the one responsible for providing the evidence. Things that constitute evidence are things that are demonstrable, verifiable and satisfies predictions.
Quote from: bicycle on June 25, 2011, 04:48:57 PMThat's my point, you can't comletely define yourself, like you said you can't believe in something that's not completely defined...
First please remember that no one asked you to completely define the god, it would go a long way to define a little bit of it.
Those are just the biggest problems I've found while reading this thread.
bicycle, you have been trolling since you came on the forum. I'd say you're time here is limited at best.
silverphinx,
QuoteI would say that it's unnecessary to call gravity "god".
I wouldn't call gravity "god" either. I wouldn't call "God" anything but "God." Anything else would be limiting God to a small aspect of itself. That's like saying if I lost my toe, and you found it on the ground, and that it would be who I am. When the man says God is the love that keeps the planets together, it's like saying Love is attachment, the planets are equally attached, just like everything in the universe. Nothing can be created or destroyed.
Quote
I don't think that "everything" or "existence" "truth" is intelligent and consciously capable of creating a universe. I like pantheism (atheistic pantheism - reality is not intelligent). I wouldn't call gravity intelligent either or give it an emotional quality.
Neither would I, but life has emotion, and life has knowledge, to my knowledge, God is a part of life. If you don't believe God exists because there is no reasonable evidence, I'm sure you don't believe there is intelligent life on other planets, considering no one has ever found reasonable evidence.
Asmodeon,
QuoteI gave you the primary defining characteristics.
Great if you want the primary defining characteristics of God here you go: Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, Everything in existence and nothing, alpha and omega.
QuoteI, the person, am the sum of all primary defining characteristics and all outside influences, past or present.
You can combine both definitions to define both aspects, although I see no need in doing so.
What you defined was a living person, in no way is it who you are, it is just what you are. You also have a name and a personal experience which words would not do justice in defining. Who "you" are, or were, or will be cannot be defined by you or anyone else.
DAvin,
QuoteThe statement after it is a long drawn out, unclear, run-on sentence. But you do make some claims about the god you believe in which leads me to disregard your concept: "God is not defined[...]" If god is not defined, then there is no reason to posit the existence of it.
This is the same problem I have been answering the entire time. I am not defined, it does not mean I do not exist. And why would making claims about (aka describing) the god I believe in, lead to disregarding the concept that "God is not defined?" I can't define myself and yet I can describe myself. In no way can a description be a definition. e.g A book is rectangular, rather than A written or printed work consisting of pages glued or sewn together along one side and bound in covers.
Quote
You state that people cannot create ideas, you will need to support this claim, because in your statement you've only supported with what you personally feel. Anecdotal evidence is only useful to the person providing it because it cannot be demonstrated to, verified by or tested by other people.
Why don't you test it out then? Name one idea that you have come up with on your own, without any outside influence or experience, that's like saying people dream before they are alive, it is impossible.
QuoteReligions exist, I don't know of anyone who claims they don't.
That's not even what I was asking...Everyone knows religions exist besides maybe 2 year olds, I was asking why you would reject the concepts of religions. In other words, why would you accept that they are wrong or bad? My other point was that people can be wrong or bad, not religion itself.
QuoteI wonder what you would call yourself then? Another atheist in the congregation? Are you not also on this board? There are many Christians and some Muslims and various other people that post on these boards.
I have no problem being part of a congretion, In context the person I was talking to said they don't like congregations of people , which is what led to me asking that question, but no I am not atheist.
Quote
Look back to your statement that was replied to: "Then what is atheism? not a flock of people with the same belief, that's not hypocritical..." Not only is this incorrect in itself, but your reply to it changed from that to merely a congregation.
Merely a congregation? A congregation is a : an assembly of persons : gathering; especially : an assembly of persons met for worship and religious instruction... That is synonymous to a flock of people with the same belief...especially when it is a religious belief. A religious belief is a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny. If you don't believe there is a God or have a lack of belief in religion altogether, that would be considered some sort of psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true. Do you not think you are right, that all religions are wrong? If you are just uncertain that would be called agnostic.
QuoteSo what would constitute as evidence if there was a God?
This was a hypothetical question. What I was asking was, what would you need to know or experience in order to believe God exists? Or what would be evidence that God exists, If I was uncertain of the existence of God, I would like to know what would make me change my mind.
QuoteQuote from: bicycle on Yesterday at 08:48:57 AM
That's my point, you can't comletely define yourself, like you said you can't believe in something that's not completely defined...
First please remember that no one asked you to completely define the god, it would go a long way to define a little bit of it.
I have defined a little bit of it, but that's not even what a definition is in the first place, that is a description. Definitions are passages that explain the meaning of a term. If you don't know what the term god is then look it up, it is used quite often. As far as I was concerned I used it as a name, why would I define a name? That's pointless...
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 03:36:33 PM
Great if you want the primary defining characteristics of God here you go: Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient,
Logical fallacy, thus requiring proof of concept.
QuoteEverything in existence and nothing, alpha and omega.
We have a word for that: the Universe
QuoteWhat you defined was a living person, in no way is it who you are, it is just what you are. You also have a name and a personal experience which words would not do justice in defining. Who "you" are, or were, or will be cannot be defined by you or anyone else.
Intelligence fail. My name does not define me in any way. I would not become a different person if I changed it to like Bob or Tad. My personal experiences and all my interactions with the outside of the biocomputer are the "outside influences"
My definition is more than good enough. It is complete, even if through use of the umbrella terms.
QuoteIn context the person I was talking to said they don't like congregations of people , which is what led to me asking that question
You are not refering to me, are you..? Because if you are, this is where I ask you to provide a specific quote of me saying that I dislike congregations...
Actually bicycle, the reason why there is no real defined God is because it can technically mean anything you worship.
For example; in Japanese Shintoism, all around is "god." Even a large tree may be considered sacred and referred to as "god."
This is why it is so very annoying to have people fight and even kill in the name of their god(s)
It is childish. :'(
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 03:36:33 PM
DAvin,
QuoteYou state that people cannot create ideas, you will need to support this claim, because in your statement you've only supported with what you personally feel. Anecdotal evidence is only useful to the person providing it because it cannot be demonstrated to, verified by or tested by other people.
Why don't you test it out then? Name one idea that you have come up with on your own, without any outside influence or experience, that's like saying people dream before they are alive, it is impossible.
What is the fact people are influenced by their environment supposed to prove?
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 03:36:33 PM
Religions exist, I don't know of anyone who claims they don't.
That's not even what I was asking...Everyone knows religions exist besides maybe 2 year olds, I was asking why you would reject the concepts of religions. In other words, why would you accept that they are wrong or bad? My other point was that people can be wrong or bad, not religion itself.
A religion says suicide is a sin and the suicide will burn in hell. The mother who believes this suffers for the rest of her life thinking her child is burning in hell.
You know, the whole "kill yourself and go to hell thing " is really agitating.
I have read horrible stories about many ancient cities that were invaded. The women would usually kill themselves and their children to save them from being tortured or used as a sex slave. So, freakin excuse me, but there are situations where the best choice is suicide.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 26, 2011, 05:02:01 PM
You know, the whole "kill yourself and go to hell thing " is really agitating.
I have read horrible stories about many ancient cities that were invaded. The women would usually kill themselves and their children to save them from being tortured or used as a sex slave. So, freakin excuse me, but there are situations where the best choice is suicide.
I've
always long thought it was a property issue, you don't want your sheep deciding life isn't worth living and jumping off a cliff.
That Sky daddy is one smart laddy, he is :D
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 03:36:33 PM
I wouldn't call gravity "god" either. I wouldn't call "God" anything but "God." Anything else would be limiting God to a small aspect of itself. That's like saying if I lost my toe, and you found it on the ground, and that it would be who I am. When the man says God is the love that keeps the planets together, it's like saying Love is attachment, the planets are equally attached, just like everything in the universe. Nothing can be created or destroyed.
Then what's the point of calling it god? Does love exist outside your mind or are you (and that guy) projecting your own emotion onto a physical phenomena? Love is also a loaded word, and not so simple is meaning than merely "attachment". So is "god".
QuoteNeither would I, but life has emotion, and life has knowledge, to my knowledge, God is a part of life. If you don't believe God exists because there is no reasonable evidence, I'm sure you don't believe there is intelligent life on other planets, considering no one has ever found reasonable evidence.
There is a lot of evidence that such a thing is possible, which makes it reasonable to assume (based on physical evidence, not just speculation) that there is life on planets other than our own.
What exactly do you see as being the evidence for the existence of god? And I'm curious, what are your thoughts on reality?
QuoteOmnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, Everything in existence and nothing, alpha and omega.
Hmmm I see you've left out omnibenelovent, at least where that's concerned, you're not projecting your expectations onto existence. Well done!
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on June 26, 2011, 05:37:40 PM
I've always long thought it was a property issue, you don't want your sheep deciding life isn't worth living and jumping off a cliff.
Only in religion would deciding what to do with your own life be a sin worthy of eternal torture. ::)
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 03:36:33 PMDAvin,
QuoteThe statement after it is a long drawn out, unclear, run-on sentence. But you do make some claims about the god you believe in which leads me to disregard your concept: "God is not defined[...]" If god is not defined, then there is no reason to posit the existence of it.
This is the same problem I have been answering the entire time. I am not defined, it does not mean I do not exist. And why would making claims about (aka describing) the god I believe in, lead to disregarding the concept that "God is not defined?" I can't define myself and yet I can describe myself. In no way can a description be a definition. e.g A book is rectangular, rather than A written or printed work consisting of pages glued or sewn together along one side and bound in covers.
All I can define of your existence is that there are posts being made on this forum under the username bicycle, but that is at least something. If I were to say that there was a person with a username of bicycle on HAF who makes posts, I can support that definition by pointing to the posts made under that username. However there is nothing, as in not a single thing, for god.
Also, to describe oneself and to define oneself, you keep acting as if they're different things:
de·fine
[dih-fahyn] verb -fined, -fin·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to state or set forth the meaning of (a word, phrase, etc.): They disagreed on how to define "liberal."
2. to explain or identify the nature or essential qualities of; describe: to define judicial functions.
3. to fix or lay down definitely; specify distinctly: to define one's responsibilities.
4. to determine or fix the boundaries or extent of: to define property with stakes.
5. to make clear the outline or form of: The roof was boldly defined against the sky.
You'll notice number 2 does in fact even use the word "describe" in the definition of what "define" means, so we're done with your silly little word game.
Quote from: bicycleQuoteYou state that people cannot create ideas, you will need to support this claim, because in your statement you've only supported with what you personally feel. Anecdotal evidence is only useful to the person providing it because it cannot be demonstrated to, verified by or tested by other people.
Why don't you test it out then? Name one idea that you have come up with on your own, without any outside influence or experience, that's like saying people dream before they are alive, it is impossible.
Are you seriously trying to shift the burden of proof for your claim onto me? I hope you realize that I'm very used to this and will not fall into that common trap. So you provide the evidence for your claims and stop trying to get other people to do it for you.
Quote from: bicycleQuoteReligions exist, I don't know of anyone who claims they don't.
That's not even what I was asking...Everyone knows religions exist besides maybe 2 year olds, I was asking why you would reject the concepts of religions. In other words, why would you accept that they are wrong or bad? My other point was that people can be wrong or bad, not religion itself.
What I answered is an answer to what you asked, however I will take your correction. I would accept that no religion can be supported to be correct due to the lack of evidence and even reasoning.
Quote from: bicycleQuoteI wonder what you would call yourself then? Another atheist in the congregation? Are you not also on this board? There are many Christians and some Muslims and various other people that post on these boards.
I have no problem being part of a congretion, In context the person I was talking to said they don't like congregations of people , which is what led to me asking that question, but no I am not atheist.
I didn't see anyone say that, don't lie.
Quote from: bicycleQuote
Look back to your statement that was replied to: "Then what is atheism? not a flock of people with the same belief, that's not hypocritical..." Not only is this incorrect in itself, but your reply to it changed from that to merely a congregation.
Merely a congregation? A congregation is a : an assembly of persons : gathering; especially : an assembly of persons met for worship and religious instruction... That is synonymous to a flock of people with the same belief...especially when it is a religious belief.
Can be, but not anywhere near as specific as your previous post. You were moving your goal post, which is a logical fallacy, please refrain from logical fallacies.
Quote from: bicycleA religious belief is a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny. If you don't believe there is a God or have a lack of belief in religion altogether, that would be considered some sort of psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.
Wrong. You've had the concept explained to you many many times, yet you seem to lack the ability to comprehend what is being said.
Quote from: bicycleDo you not think you are right, that all religions are wrong? If you are just uncertain that would be called agnostic.
I answered this previously, there is no reason to accept what any religion says.
Quote from: bicycleQuoteSo what would constitute as evidence if there was a God?
This was a hypothetical question. What I was asking was, what would you need to know or experience in order to believe God exists? Or what would be evidence that God exists, If I was uncertain of the existence of God, I would like to know what would make me change my mind.
I answered.
Quote from: bicycle on June 26, 2011, 03:36:33 PM
My other point was that people can be wrong or bad, not religion itself.
Religion is wrong when it promotes human suffering (anti Euthanasia) when it promotes ignorance (anti sex education), when it promotes sexism (all male preisthood), when it promotes persecusion (anti homosexuality), when it promotes against critical thinking, when it promotes against the idea of requiring proof, when it creates the idea of requiring belief...
People are wrong when they use religions to persecute others, that is not the job of religion, and I am religious but still use critical thinking...God can be described, just like I can be described, but no one can truly define me or any other person specifically... Anyways, the universe is far too perfect to not have been created for nothing, or to not have a creator. Coincidentally, theists would say God created himself, similar to the universe being created out of itself. We were all created, you could say our parents are the ones who created us, but we came from the universe, where nothing is created or destroyed just changed or manipulated. Time is an illusion which hides the true nature of the universe.
It may seem random but everything can be calculated. As far as homosexuals, no one is born gay, you can argue with me all you want, but gay scientific researchers have been known to have found ZERO proof that people are born gay. No such thing as gay genetics or centers in the brain that conduce homosexual behavior. Would it be right to persecute homosexuals? Hell no, but they are wishfully thinking if they think they were made that way. If you disagree, prove me wrong, would be glad to listen, unless your just trying to be a smart a$$.
Quote from: bicycle on June 28, 2011, 06:52:23 PM
but we came from the universe, where nothing is created or destroyed just changed or manipulated.
The rule is that ENERGY can't be created nor destroyed...but that only applies in the general sense. What we understand to be physical laws of the universe tend to break down into something much more strange when we look at things on a very tiny scale.
QuoteAs far as homosexuals, no one is born gay, you can argue with me all you want, but gay scientific researchers have been known to have found ZERO proof that people are born gay. No such thing as gay genetics or centers in the brain that conduce homosexual behavior. Would it be right to persecute homosexuals? Hell no, but they are wishfully thinking if they think they were made that way. If you disagree, prove me wrong, would be glad to listen, unless your just trying to be a smart a$$.
This has already been covered elsewhere on the forum via past threads...I'll just say that there is research that supports homosexuality being natural (a very obvious one being that it occurs naturally in other animals) but I don't feel like trying to prove to you that you are wrong because I don't expect you to be receptive to it considering how you reacted to being informed that you were wrong about people not being able to be described.
Do you have anything of value to add to the forum or are you just going to keep on telling us what you think without supporting it because we don't allow preaching.
Prenatal endocrine influences on sexual orientation and on sexually differentiated childhood behavior (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302211000240)
Department of Social and Developmental Psychology, University of Cambridge, UKQuoteABSTRACT: Both sexual orientation and sex-typical childhood behaviors, such as toy, playmate and activity preferences, show substantial sex differences, as well as substantial variability within each sex. In other species, behaviors that show sex differences are typically influenced by exposure to gonadal steroids, particularly testosterone and its metabolites, during early development (prenatally or neonatally). This article reviews the evidence regarding prenatal influences of gonadal steroids on human sexual orientation, as well as sex-typed childhood behaviors that predict subsequent sexual orientation. The evidence supports a role for prenatal testosterone exposure in the development of sex-typed interests in childhood, as well as in sexual orientation in later life, at least for some individuals. It appears, however, that other factors, in addition to hormones, play an important role in determining sexual orientation. These factors have not been well-characterized, but possibilities include direct genetic effects, and effects of maternal factors during pregnancy. Although a role for hormones during early development has been established, it also appears that there may be multiple pathways to a given sexual orientation outcome and some of these pathways may not involve hormones.
I'll just leave this here in case anybody actually feels that bicycle's baseless assertions should be given any credence whatsoever.
Quote from: bicycle on June 28, 2011, 06:52:23 PM
As far as homosexuals, no one is born gay, you can argue with me all you want, but gay scientific researchers have been known to have found ZERO proof that people are born gay. No such thing as gay genetics or centers in the brain that conduce homosexual behavior. Would it be right to persecute homosexuals? Hell no, but they are wishfully thinking if they think they were made that way. If you disagree, prove me wrong, would be glad to listen, unless your just trying to be a smart a$$.
I've
kind of been with you up to this point. I am a Christian.
I think you're correct that no person was/is created homosexual. However neither was/is any person created sinful, yet from conception we are sinful. (Lots of theology in that) Homosexuality is part of sin and while there may not be an actual homosexual gene, people are born with whatever it is that bends them to what society sees as abnormal. I don't condone homosexual ACTS, but I do support the homosexual's personal struggle and promote that BEING a homosexual is no more sinful than simply BEING born. The sin is in the acts and not solely on what gender they are attracted to. They are loved and can be covered by Christ's atonement just as any heterosexual can be. Much more has been discussed here at HAF on the matter. If you're interested, look it up.
bicycle, out of interest, do you identify with any of the known gods or religions of the world, or are you a panentheist of sorts without affiliation to any particular religion?
Personally, I have a few issues with the idea of a god that is 'Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, Everything in existence and nothing, alpha and omega.'
I think anyone claiming their god is omnipotent and omnipresent has to answer Epicurus' big question set 2300 years ago, why is there so much suffering, warfare, wrongdoing and general unpleasantness and rubbish in the world? I guess either your god just doesn't care about such things (I'm sure human suffering is beneath the interests of such a lofty deity), or maybe it's just not a benevolent god (to be fair you never claimed it was). Either way, even if it were to exist, it doesn't sound much like a god worthy of my time and belief.
I also have to wonder why an omnipotent and omnipresent god appears to lack the ability to show itself to the world and provide us with some tangible evidence of its existence. I also have to question its decision to let so many small minded fundamentalist (and often violent) people pretend to represent it on this planet.
Maybe the answer is this god has no interest in us or in showing us it exists, in which case it can't really blame us for coming to the conclusion that it probably doesn't exist! I then have to ask if this god has no interest in us, is it really going to care if we believe in it or not?
Too Few Lions,
Suffering is a relative term. That's like saying why do people get cold. Cold wouldn't exist without warmth. Cold is just an absence of heat or energy. Clearly, there would be no such thing as good without bad...From our perspective, suffering seems to not be fair, but then again none of us have died yet. What would death be like if you suffered your whole life? Would life be fair if you couldn't die? IMO no, because then the suffering would be in vain.
Edited for preaching LOL...
Quote from: bicycle on June 28, 2011, 08:53:37 PM
Too Few Lions,
If you didn't know, life is all about suffering.
^this is preaching...stop.
If you can't at least attempt to prove something then you shouldn't bring it up on this forum.
Ok I'll stop preaching...but I'm not dumb enough to try and prove God exists, that's like me daring you to prove God doesn't exist...If God was proven to exist, there wouldn't be religion, I hypothesize we would all be slaves... Seriously though, they can ask me why we suffer, but I'm not allowed to answer the question? Give me a break, what was I supposed to say? Only suckers suffer. yaa right.
Quote from: bicycle on June 28, 2011, 09:08:38 PM
Seriously though, they can ask me why we suffer, but I'm not allowed to answer the question? Give me a break, what was I supposed to say?
Explaining your view is not preaching, stating it without any support is preaching.
If you aren't smart enough to figure out the difference then you aren't a good fit for this forum anyway.
Quote from: bicycle on June 28, 2011, 08:53:37 PM
Too Few Lions,
Suffering is a relative term. That's like saying why do people get cold. Cold wouldn't exist without warmth. Cold is just an absence of heat or energy. Clearly, there would be no such thing as good without bad...From our perspective, suffering seems to not be fair, but then again none of us have died yet. What would death be like if you suffered your whole life? Would life be fair if you couldn't die? IMO no, because then the suffering would be in vain.
Edited for preaching LOL...
It would be nice if you could answer my questions! like do you identify with any of the known gods or religions of the world, or are you a panentheist of sorts without affiliation to any particular religion?
I'm just trying to work out what you actually believe in (if anything).
Personally I'm not sure suffering is a completely relative term. If I'm very ill, injured, starving, being tortured, having my flesh eaten by maggots etc I think I'm suffering. The sense receptors in my body are registering pain and that suffering exists. I'd still like to know how you reconcile all the suffering in the world to your idea of an omnipotent god. I'd also like to know why this omnipotent god can't provide any tangible evidence of its existence.
The only conclusion I can reach is that this deity is totally remote and disinterested in you, I or any other human being, which is fair enough, but you don't seem any better off believing in this kind of god than you would be being an atheist. Which makes me wonder why you think it's so pointless being an atheist.
Quote from: bicycle on June 28, 2011, 06:52:23 PM
People are wrong when they use religions to persecute others, that is not the job of religion, and I am religious but still use critical thinking...God can be described, just like I can be described, but no one can truly define me or any other person specifically... Anyways, the universe is far too perfect to not have been created for nothing, or to not have a creator.
This line of reasoning that you insist on repeating is really annoying me. God can't be described in the same sense as I or anyone on this forum can be. My girlfriend, family, and friends can describe my physical appearance in great and compelling detail, the same cannot be said for god. They can also explain my psyche in less detail, yet still backed by more evidence than someone can do with a god. We as individuals can be described based on the senses and there is evidence abound regarding how our individual minds work. The same cannot be said for any gods'.
QuoteCoincidentally, theists would say God created himself, similar to the universe being created out of itself. We were all created, you could say our parents are the ones who created us, but we came from the universe, where nothing is created or destroyed just changed or manipulated. Time is an illusion which hides the true nature of the universe.
Something either always existed or something came from nothing, that is where we are at. Now we know some things exist, so is it not more logical to assume something we know exists defied logic, rather than something that defies logic defied logic?
Quote
It may seem random but everything can be calculated. As far as homosexuals, no one is born gay, you can argue with me all you want, but gay scientific researchers have been known to have found ZERO proof that people are born gay. No such thing as gay genetics or centers in the brain that conduce homosexual behavior. Would it be right to persecute homosexuals? Hell no, but they are wishfully thinking if they think they were made that way. If you disagree, prove me wrong, would be glad to listen, unless your just trying to be a smart a$$.
I haven't been following this thread all that closely, but this issue seems to be a moot point. Regardless of gays being born that way or choosing homosexuality, it does not affect their natural rights. The reason they are gay should be a non-issue.
I think i'm going to stop myself from posting in this particular thread. I don't want to be banned from this forum, because I love it too much.
Bicycle has said and sugsted hurtful things towards homosexuality. Even invaded my introduction thread, suggesting that i'm a lesbian by choice because of my rape at 14.
I'll be around elsewhere. Love ya, tank, magic pudding, fester, and think anarchy :D
-sweetdeath
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 28, 2011, 11:32:41 PM
Even invaded my introduction thread, suggesting that i'm a lesbian by choice because of my rape at 14.
Sorry, I somehow didn't catch that.
Bicycle, due to your inability to approach the topic tactfully and apparent desire to bring up the topic just to troll people, you now have a special rule applied only to you that does not allow you to further discuss the topic of why people are gay until you ask and receive my permission (via pm). If you ask why in the thread that will be a violation of your special rule. You've already been banned once the next one is permanent.
No sweat, Whitney, you are a very approachable mod/admin.
I'm almost 26 years old, so I feel mature enough to walk away frim topics that bother me. I don't have any beef with the people in this forum though. I've actually felt happier since i've joined. ^__^
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 29, 2011, 12:11:08 AM
I've actually felt happier since i've joined. ^__^
yay!
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 28, 2011, 11:32:41 PM
I think i'm going to stop myself from posting in this particular thread. I don't want to be banned from this forum, because I love it too much.
I will follow your example.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 28, 2011, 11:32:41 PM
I think i'm going to stop myself from posting in this particular thread. I don't want to be banned from this forum, because I love it too much.
Bicycle has said and sugsted hurtful things towards homosexuality. Even invaded my introduction thread, suggesting that i'm a lesbian by choice because of my rape at 14.
I'll be around elsewhere. Love ya, tank, magic pudding, fester, and think anarchy :D
-sweetdeath
Yay, somebody loves the heavy armored weaponized vehicle, the delicious dessert, and, of course, the bald guy! Love ya too!
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 29, 2011, 12:11:08 AM
No sweat, Whitney, you are a very approachable mod/admin.
I'm almost 26 years old, so I feel mature enough to walk away frim topics that bother me. I don't have any beef with the people in this forum though. I've actually felt happier since i've joined. ^__^
YO, I don't see how I have been hurtful toward homosexuality, all I said was it's not genetic, I'm sorry if I have offended you...But I can't control what offends you...I don't say you chose to be who you are, I know people can't control things like that, I certainly can't choose to be gay. I have no problem with you at all, I don't see who would. If you have a problem with me I would understand, but I would rather not have it that way.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 28, 2011, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: bicycle on June 28, 2011, 06:52:23 PM
As far as homosexuals, no one is born gay, you can argue with me all you want, but gay scientific researchers have been known to have found ZERO proof that people are born gay. No such thing as gay genetics or centers in the brain that conduce homosexual behavior. Would it be right to persecute homosexuals? Hell no, but they are wishfully thinking if they think they were made that way. If you disagree, prove me wrong, would be glad to listen, unless your just trying to be a smart a$$.
I've kind of been with you up to this point. I am a Christian.
I think you're correct that no person was/is created homosexual. However neither was/is any person created sinful, yet from conception we are sinful. (Lots of theology in that) Homosexuality is part of sin and while there may not be an actual homosexual gene, people are born with whatever it is that bends them to what society sees as abnormal. I don't condone homosexual ACTS, but I do support the homosexual's personal struggle and promote that BEING a homosexual is no more sinful than simply BEING born. The sin is in the acts and not solely on what gender they are attracted to. They are loved and can be covered by Christ's atonement just as any heterosexual can be. Much more has been discussed here at HAF on the matter. If you're interested, look it up.
I don't care what you support, I can't believe I am seen as someone who wouldn't support gay people because I said it was not genetic. I always support people who are true to themselves and others, that is what I believe gay people do. I don't think your sexuality is an option. I certainly don't expect gay people to be hurt because I said their not born that way. Who we become is just a matter of our perspective. Everyone is different.
Quote from: bicycle on June 29, 2011, 06:15:10 AM
I don't care what you support, I can't believe I am seen as someone who wouldn't support gay people because I said it was not genetic.
If you can't believe that invent something else to believe, you seem good at that, even if not at explaining it.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on June 28, 2011, 11:32:41 PM
I think i'm going to stop myself from posting in this particular thread. I don't want to be banned from this forum, because I love it too much.
Bicycle has said and sugsted hurtful things towards homosexuality. Even invaded my introduction thread, suggesting that i'm a lesbian by choice because of my rape at 14.
I'll be around elsewhere. Love ya, tank, magic pudding, fester, and think anarchy :D
-sweetdeath
Awwwww thanks. Glad you like it here.
Quote from: bicycle on June 29, 2011, 06:15:10 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on June 28, 2011, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: bicycle on June 28, 2011, 06:52:23 PM
As far as homosexuals, no one is born gay, you can argue with me all you want, but gay scientific researchers have been known to have found ZERO proof that people are born gay. No such thing as gay genetics or centers in the brain that conduce homosexual behavior. Would it be right to persecute homosexuals? Hell no, but they are wishfully thinking if they think they were made that way. If you disagree, prove me wrong, would be glad to listen, unless your just trying to be a smart a$$.
I've kind of been with you up to this point. I am a Christian.
I think you're correct that no person was/is created homosexual. However neither was/is any person created sinful, yet from conception we are sinful. (Lots of theology in that) Homosexuality is part of sin and while there may not be an actual homosexual gene, people are born with whatever it is that bends them to what society sees as abnormal. I don't condone homosexual ACTS, but I do support the homosexual's personal struggle and promote that BEING a homosexual is no more sinful than simply BEING born. The sin is in the acts and not solely on what gender they are attracted to. They are loved and can be covered by Christ's atonement just as any heterosexual can be. Much more has been discussed here at HAF on the matter. If you're interested, look it up.
I don't care what you support, I can't believe I am seen as someone who wouldn't support gay people because I said it was not genetic. I always support people who are true to themselves and others, that is what I believe gay people do. I don't think your sexuality is an option. I certainly don't expect gay people to be hurt because I said their not born that way. Who we become is just a matter of our perspective. Everyone is different.
Well it would appear you are simply very thoughtless and behave in an inconsiderate way. If you wish to interact with people you don't know the first thing you do is discover, then clarify your understanding of what have discovered. From there you explain your position, where you feel it differs from the other person and then explain why it differs. You don't 'waltz into the bar' with a chip on your shoulder and spout of your views as though you are something special. You wouldn't do it in real life so why do it on a forum?
Quote from: bicycle on June 29, 2011, 06:15:10 AM
I don't care what you support,
You make it easy to apparently misrepresent your words because first, you attack...
Quote from: bicycle on June 29, 2011, 06:15:10 AM
I can't believe I am seen as someone who wouldn't support gay people because I said it was not genetic. I always support people who are true to themselves and others, that is what I believe gay people do. I don't think your sexuality is an option. I certainly don't expect gay people to be hurt because I said their not born that way. Who we become is just a matter of our perspective. Everyone is different.
...and then you're "nice". Even in these words you mean to soothe, it's still painfully difficult to feel your compassion.
bicycle...defend yourself by not further acting in an inconsiderate manner while discussing other topics; I'm shutting down this thread to put an end to what is only going to evolve into a bigger mess.