Hi,
I've been occasionally visiting the forum for a few months now when I get a spare moment at work, and just wish I'd replied to more threads before the fifty posts rule came in (I only managed 8 :(). I'm now a bit worried it's going to be a lot of just saying 'hi' posts to reach 50!
I'm an atheist in my thirties, been an atheist since the age of five or six, when I told my teacher in Sunday school that I didn't believe Jesus had ever lived. I remember her telling me there was more evidence that Jesus had lived than Julius Caesar. Of course I now know she was either lying, stupid or incredibly poorly educated (possibly all three!) Thankfully my parents never forced me to go back to Church again after I told them I didn't believe in God.
I grew up in reading Homer and the Greek myths, and have a soft spot for paganism, their gods are so much more fun than the Jewish, Christian or Muslim gods. Plus polytheists are historically much more tolerant than monotheists, people who believe in a hundred gods are willing to accept the existence of any number of others, whereas those who believe in one god have always seen any other deities as false gods and persecuted their followers. I think it could be argued that monotheism was the single worst idea in human history!
I studied archaeology and ancient history at Uni, and did a master's in comparative religion, so have a good grounding in ancient history, religion and philosophy. I've spent parts of my spare time in the past ten years or so (when not working, socialising, travelling and generally bumming around enjoying myself) researching and writing a book looking at the Bible as mythology.
I think most of both the Old and New Testaments are mythology without historical basis, and the myths are surprisingly easy to explain as allegory when one compares them to other religious and philosophical texts from antiquity. It's a tough subject to try and get work published on though (particularly as a first time author), as most companies who publish work on this subject tend to be religious therefore not open to this approach, so I'm probably going to end up self publishing later on this year.
Having read the Bible pretty much cover to cover and the Qur'an (undoubtedly the most unpleasant book I've ever read), I didn't find anything to suggest the evidence of a god in these books. In fact I found very little that could be called positive in either book. If there is a creative force behind the Universe, it's not the god of Judaism, Christianity or Islam. These religions seem to me to be 100% the creation of men, and have brought little to the history of humanity other than warfare, intolerance and suffering.
Anyway, that's me in a nutshell, it's nice to finally get round to introducing myself. I hope the 50 posting rule will get me posting a bit more, and hopefully I'll reach the magical half century and be able to post comments on the more meaty threads again!
Hello, you sound like another one of those annoyingly clever people. :)
I think if you were a member before the 50 post rule came in it doesn't apply to you.
Date Registered: Thu 13 January 2011, 21:56 PM I'm not sure if this is before the change.
Have you tried positing in Philosophy to see if you can?
I just looked at your posts, they include religion etc, so you should still be able to post anywhere.
Welcome! A very intriguing introduction! I look forward to seeing more of you on the forums.
cool, I'll try and post something in the religion or philosophy sections and see what happens. I tried yesterday and couldn't see an option for replying to a thread. Still it's nice to make the effort to introduce myself (I'm quite lazy and shy!) and it'll give me more reason to visit the forum more often and reply on more posts.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on May 19, 2011, 01:07:02 PM
I think if you were a member before the 50 post rule came in it doesn't apply to you.
Date Registered: Thu 13 January 2011, 21:56 PM I'm not sure if this is before the change.
Have you tried positing in Philosophy to see if you can?
I just looked at your posts, they include religion etc, so you should still be able to post anywhere.
the grandfather rule got lost when we switched forum software.
oh well, only another 38 posts to go!
Welcome!
I look forward to many good debates with you once you hit 50.
And I've always had a pretty big interest in mythology and the like. I think the Norse Gods are the coolest though. (even if I dont beleive in them. ;) )
Hi TFL
Welcome to HAF, a little belatedly ;D
Regards
Chris
Hi and welcome,
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 19, 2011, 12:40:53 PM
I didn't find anything to suggest the evidence of a god in these books.
Same with me, also looking at the historical evidence (or lack thereof, jesus I'm talking about you) it only further highlighted the fact that these books were more about politics utilising people susceptibility to spirituality.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 19, 2011, 12:40:53 PM
I didn't find anything to suggest the evidence of a god in these books.
How about the fact that these book are still around for you to read?
Quote from: PapistItalian16 on May 19, 2011, 10:52:34 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 19, 2011, 12:40:53 PM
I didn't find anything to suggest the evidence of a god in these books.
How about the fact that these book are still around for you to read?
So are Egyptian hieroglyphs, and they're older.
Quote from: Davin on May 19, 2011, 11:00:37 PM
Quote from: PapistItalian16 on May 19, 2011, 10:52:34 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 19, 2011, 12:40:53 PM
I didn't find anything to suggest the evidence of a god in these books.
How about the fact that these book are still around for you to read?
So are Egyptian hieroglyphs, and they're older.
Yea...good point...Lol
I didnt really know where I was going with that anyways. Just had to try though... hahahahaha
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 19, 2011, 12:40:53 PM
Having read the Bible pretty much cover to cover and the Quran (undoubtedly the most unpleasant book I've ever read), I didnt find anything to suggest the evidence of a god in these books. In fact I found very little that could be called positive in either book. If there is a creative force behind the Universe, its not the god of Judaism, Christianity or Islam. These religions seem to me to be 100% the creation of men, and have brought little to the history of humanity other than warfare, intolerance and suffering.
Well. You're off to a good start. I often publish critical evaluations of books I've 'pretty much' read cover to cover. See my upcoming book
Evaluations of Crime and Punishment: I've Pretty Much Read the Whole Thing
Quote from: Will37 on May 19, 2011, 11:11:17 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 19, 2011, 12:40:53 PM
Having read the Bible pretty much cover to cover and the Qur'an (undoubtedly the most unpleasant book I've ever read), I didn't find anything to suggest the evidence of a god in these books. In fact I found very little that could be called positive in either book. If there is a creative force behind the Universe, it's not the god of Judaism, Christianity or Islam. These religions seem to me to be 100% the creation of men, and have brought little to the history of humanity other than warfare, intolerance and suffering.
Well. You're off to a good start. I often publish critical evaluations of books I've 'pretty much' read cover to cover.
Considering that Bible means collection of books and that all the included books were not written with the intent of being bound together your tongue in cheek comment was not appropriate in that case.
It would be appropriate for the quran since that was dictated by one guy claiming to be speaking for god.
Quote from: Whitney on May 19, 2011, 11:15:11 PM
Quote from: Will37 on May 19, 2011, 11:11:17 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 19, 2011, 12:40:53 PM
Having read the Bible pretty much cover to cover and the Qur'an (undoubtedly the most unpleasant book I've ever read), I didn't find anything to suggest the evidence of a god in these books. In fact I found very little that could be called positive in either book. If there is a creative force behind the Universe, it's not the god of Judaism, Christianity or Islam. These religions seem to me to be 100% the creation of men, and have brought little to the history of humanity other than warfare, intolerance and suffering.
Well. You're off to a good start. I often publish critical evaluations of books I've 'pretty much' read cover to cover.
Considering that Bible means collection of books and that all the included books were not written with the intent of being bound together your tongue in cheek comment was not appropriate in that case.
It would be appropriate for the quran since that was dictated by one guy claiming to be speaking for god.
Yeah...what about the books that didn't make it into being part of the Bible?
Great read! Welcome!
Quote from: Whitney on May 19, 2011, 11:15:11 PM
Quote from: Will37 on May 19, 2011, 11:11:17 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 19, 2011, 12:40:53 PM
Having read the Bible pretty much cover to cover and the Qur'an (undoubtedly the most unpleasant book I've ever read), I didn't find anything to suggest the evidence of a god in these books. In fact I found very little that could be called positive in either book. If there is a creative force behind the Universe, it's not the god of Judaism, Christianity or Islam. These religions seem to me to be 100% the creation of men, and have brought little to the history of humanity other than warfare, intolerance and suffering.
Well. You're off to a good start. I often publish critical evaluations of books I've 'pretty much' read cover to cover.
Considering that Bible means collection of books and that all the included books were not written with the intent of being bound together your tongue in cheek comment was not appropriate in that case.
It would be appropriate for the quran since that was dictated by one guy claiming to be speaking for god.
And your retort would be appropiate if he announced that he was writing an analysis of a particular book in the Bible. Like the book of Job. However you will notice that he didn't say he was writing an analysis of parts of the Bible but rather the Bible full stop, which apparently he hasn't finished reading yet.
Quote from: PapistItalian16 on May 19, 2011, 10:52:34 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 19, 2011, 12:40:53 PM
I didn't find anything to suggest the evidence of a god in these books.
How about the fact that these book are still around for you to read?
On that basis we should all be Jewish as the Tora is older or we should all be Muslim as the Koran is younger. You can't have special pleading for your holy book. Holy books are ten a penny. Sorry.
EDIT: Posted before I read your response to a later post. Glad to see you saw the problem :)
QuoteYeah...what about the books that didn't make it into being part of the Bible?
I think some of the stuff that didn't make it into the Bible's far more interesting than the stuff that did! The Nag Hammadi scrolls show some of the more bizarre elements of ancient religion, such as the mystical ascents via the stars and planets involving strange secret glyphs and formulas that had to be presented to all the various celestial archons.
Plus I've always quite liked the way the Gnostics tried to explain a world full of suffering, warfare, disease and the like, coming to the conclusion that the world wasn't created by a benevolent god but a blind and rather malicious demiurge!
Plus, as for pretty much reading the Bible cover-to-cover, some of the Old Testament's incredibly dull and pretty irrelevant in terms of looking at the basic myths, I think Deuteronomy can be pretty much skip-read!
Quote from: PapistItalian16 on May 19, 2011, 10:52:34 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 19, 2011, 12:40:53 PM
I didn't find anything to suggest the evidence of a god in these books.
How about the fact that these book are still around for you to read?
I think there's a good reason why the Bible's still around for people to read, and it's nothing to do with the existence of its god(s) or the pertinence of its message(s).
If I'd have questioned its veracity even a hundred years ago I'd have been imprisoned, the last person jailed for the 'crime' of blasphemy in the UK was in 1921. 200 years ago I'd have been executed if I'd been in Spain! It spent almost 1500 years as the unquestionable 'Word of God' in most of Europe.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 20, 2011, 11:28:20 AM
Plus, as for pretty much reading the Bible cover-to-cover, some of the Old Testament's incredibly dull and pretty irrelevant in terms of looking at the basic myths, I think Deuteronomy can be pretty much skip-read!
Are you kidding me? Deuteronomy? We're not even talking about one of the books from a minor prophet like Amos. Deuteronomy is easily one of the most important books in the Bible. It is a key theological cornerstone of the entire Bible. It is a text that is indispensable to theological core of Judaism and Christianity. I'm just shocked that somebody claiming to be trying to get a book published on the Bible would say make such a comment. This sort of lackadaisical attitude towards your reaserch may go a long way towards explaining your difficulties in finding a publisher.
Quote from: Will37 on May 20, 2011, 12:26:10 PMI'm just shocked that somebody claiming to be trying to get a book published on the Bible would say make such a comment. This sort of lackadaisical attitude towards your reaserch may go a long way towards explaining your difficulties in finding a publisher.
If you don't like the message attack the messenger, it is a useful technique. Probably works best in a crowd that shares your dislike of the message though.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on May 20, 2011, 12:56:39 PM
Quote from: Will37 on May 20, 2011, 12:26:10 PMI'm just shocked that somebody claiming to be trying to get a book published on the Bible would say make such a comment. This sort of lackadaisical attitude towards your reaserch may go a long way towards explaining your difficulties in finding a publisher.
If you don't like the message attack the messenger, it is a useful technique. Probably works best in a crowd that shares your dislike of the message though.
I'm an apostate Catholic. That is to say an indivual baptized in the Church who has professed his disbelief in the Christian religion. I have no problem with the message that the Bible is a document produced by men, altered over time (Deuteronomy is also an essential text for understanding the political process by which the Jews transitioned from a polytheistic or henotheistic to a monotheistic culture). There is plenty of solid reaserch on the Bible defending this message writen by serious scholars who actually bothered to read the whole book and didn't 'skip-read' some of the most essential portions of the book on the grounds that it's dense and boring.
Quote from: Will37 on May 20, 2011, 12:26:10 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 20, 2011, 11:28:20 AM
Plus, as for pretty much reading the Bible cover-to-cover, some of the Old Testament's incredibly dull and pretty irrelevant in terms of looking at the basic myths, I think Deuteronomy can be pretty much skip-read!
Are you kidding me? Deuteronomy? We're not even talking about one of the books from a minor prophet like Amos. Deuteronomy is easily one of the most important books in the Bible. It is a key theological cornerstone of the entire Bible. It is a text that is indispensable to theological core of Judaism and Christianity. I'm just shocked that somebody claiming to be trying to get a book published on the Bible would say make such a comment. This sort of lackadaisical attitude towards your reaserch may go a long way towards explaining your difficulties in finding a publisher.
I hate to point this out, but please look again at my original introduction. I've written a book looking at the Bible as mythology, looking at the cosmological and mythological elements which I personally think are at the heart of the Bible. I said that Deuteronomy was pretty dull and isn't one of the most important or interesting books of the Bible in this respect, which I think is true.
The same goes for some of the books of the lesser prophets and some of the letters of the New Testament. I don't think they're as important to basic biblical mythology / cosmology as say the books of Genesis or Exodus, or the gospels.
oh, and I didn't actually skip-read Deuteronomy, I did read it all carefully and painstakingly. But for what I'm interested in, I may as well have skip-read it.
Quote from: Will37 on May 20, 2011, 01:51:54 PM
I'm an apostate Catholic. That is to say an indivual baptized in the Church who has professed his disbelief in the Christian religion. I have no problem with the message that the Bible is a document produced by men, altered over time (Deuteronomy is also an essential text for understanding the political process by which the Jews transitioned from a polytheistic or henotheistic to a monotheistic culture). There is plenty of solid reaserch on the Bible defending this message writen by serious scholars who actually bothered to read the whole book and didn't 'skip-read' some of the most essential portions of the book on the grounds that it's dense and boring.
I concur.
I am going to say hello, and welcome to one of the best forums I have ever been on. For fear of sounding like I have the intelegance of a malformed duck, I will leave it at I am looking forward to seeing some of the post you make when you hit your 50.
Hello and welcome.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 20, 2011, 02:52:03 PM
Quote from: Will37 on May 20, 2011, 12:26:10 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 20, 2011, 11:28:20 AM
Plus, as for pretty much reading the Bible cover-to-cover, some of the Old Testament's incredibly dull and pretty irrelevant in terms of looking at the basic myths, I think Deuteronomy can be pretty much skip-read!
Are you kidding me? Deuteronomy? We're not even talking about one of the books from a minor prophet like Amos. Deuteronomy is easily one of the most important books in the Bible. It is a key theological cornerstone of the entire Bible. It is a text that is indispensable to theological core of Judaism and Christianity. I'm just shocked that somebody claiming to be trying to get a book published on the Bible would say make such a comment. This sort of lackadaisical attitude towards your reaserch may go a long way towards explaining your difficulties in finding a publisher.
I hate to point this out, but please look again at my original introduction. I've written a book looking at the Bible as mythology, looking at the cosmological and mythological elements which I personally think are at the heart of the Bible. I said that Deuteronomy was pretty dull and isn't one of the most important or interesting books of the Bible in this respect, which I think is true.The same goes for some of the books of the lesser prophets and some of the letters of the New Testament. I don't think they're as important to basic biblical mythology / cosmology as say the books of Genesis or Exodus, or the gospels.
Right, I understand what your project is (unless you are using the phrase 'Bible as myth' in some highly unusual way) and that is exactly why I am finding it hard to believe that you could have done serious reaserch and concluded that Deuteronomy is 'pretty much irrelevant' to the 'basic myth' of the Bible. Usually when people say "the Bible as myth' they mean they will examine the Bible as they would anyother legendary account of man and his place in the universe. Used in this sense it is very difficult to see how someone could seriously claim that Deuteronomy is pretty much irrelevant to the basic structure of the Biblical story. Deuteronomy is central to the basic myth of the Bible. Unless you consider monotheism and Moses pretty irrelevant to the Biblical legend.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on May 20, 2011, 02:52:03 PM
I said that Deuteronomy was pretty dull
The entirety of the bible is dull never mind deuteronomy I can't think of a single time where I thought this is riveting stuff.
Quote
Right, I understand what your project is (unless you are using the phrase 'Bible as myth' in some highly unusual way) and that is exactly why I am finding it hard to believe that you could have done serious reaserch and concluded that Deuteronomy is 'pretty much irrelevant' to the 'basic myth' of the Bible. Usually when people say "the Bible as myth' they mean they will examine the Bible as they would anyother legendary account of man and his place in the universe. Used in this sense it is very difficult to see how someone could seriously claim that Deuteronomy is pretty much irrelevant to the basic structure of the Biblical story. Deuteronomy is central to the basic myth of the Bible. Unless you consider monotheism and Moses pretty irrelevant to the Biblical legend.
It's been a few years since I read it and was bored by it, but Deuteronomy seems to me to be mainly about promoting Yahweh as the single god of the Jews and setting out various laws that the Jews should obey. I think Moses is a mythological figure, but beyond that I don't see a lot of mythology in Deuteronomy.
As as atheist, it's not masively important to me whether the Jews were monotheistic, henotheistic or polytheistic. I don't see any great divide between the three (they're all theists!) Only a monotheist would see this as being an incredibly important central part of biblical myth. Whether the Jews (or Christians) were monotheistic or polytheistic they were still using the same basic mythological templates, rituals and model of the cosmos as all the other folk around them.
I'm far more interested in what I see as the basic myths (such as the Garden of Eden, the Flood, the Exodus, the Virgin Birth, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, the final Conflagration etc etc), their parallels in other ancient religions / myths and how they relate to ancient cosmology / beliefs.
You do seem to be getting a little hung-up on a flippant throw away comment about Deuteronomy being dull, and you may as well skip read it. Both of which still ring true for me.
QuoteWell, there's egg and bacon,
egg sausage and bacon
Egg and spam
Egg, bacon and spam
Egg, bacon, sausage and spam
Spam, bacon, sausage and spam
Spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon and spam
Spam, sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam tomato and spam
Spam, spam, spam, egg and spam
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(Choir: Spam! Spam! Spam! Spam! Lovely Spam! Lovely Spam!)
Or Lobster Thermidor aux crevettes with a mornay sauce
served in a provencale manner with shallots and aubergines
garnished with truffle pate, brandy and a fried egg on top and spam.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi296.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fmm169%2Fsuperbelle0130%2FPicture252.jpg&hash=8a87270f167f028e44d3dfe3f53a54235bd39446)