Happy Atheist Forum

 :)

We create the devil by being bad, and he leads us to be bad, and if our faith were stronger he wouldn't be a problem.
In other words it's all our fault.
This should be remembered when ever it seems the very heavens are against us, it is all our fault.  

Sure the devil exists, he's the entity that certain people conjure up to avoid any responsibility for their actions...

The devil character is much more influential than the god character. If there were no devil, no hell, then there would be no consequences in not believing.

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"So I was thinking if god is not strong enough to just stomp out satan or whatever then satan must be at least as strong as god.  So essentially satan must be another god.

Oh heavens, noo!  :hmm:
Hehe doesn't that sound like human kind and our shittiness is more powerful than god? HMMMM?  :P

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"Anyways i don't think i believe much of this stuff, just some thoughts really.  I wasn't sure, do muslims believe in a hell or a satan?

http://www.islamicinformationcentre.co.uk/muslims.htm (http://www.islamicinformationcentre.co.uk/muslims.htm)

Satan was invented by man when it was obvious that people weren't really in love with the whole God's wrath thing.  They had to stop blaming bad things on God otherwise people would get mad at God.  We have to have a kinder, gentler God, and an evil nemesis that causes bad things that isn't as powerful as God, but God lets the nemesis do bad things to see if we really love God or if we just say we do.  Of course, the reason God is more powerful is when a person chooses sides, who is going to choose the eventual losing side?  I remember in the movie "The Devil's Advocate," when it is pointed out to the Devil that in the Bible God wins.  The Devil's reply, and I'm paraphrasing, is that particular history hasn't been written yet, that the Devil is going to write a new book.  That movie is funny at that point because Satan calls God out for being a dickhead.

*I probably should say the invention of Satan is just my hypothesis.  I don't know there's any way to go back in time to get into the minds of the people who invented Satan.

Quote from: "fester30"Satan was invented by man when it was obvious that people weren't really in love with the whole God's wrath thing.  They had to stop blaming bad things on God otherwise people would get mad at God.  We have to have a kinder, gentler God, and an evil nemesis that causes bad things that isn't as powerful as God, but God lets the nemesis do bad things to see if we really love God or if we just say we do.  Of course, the reason God is more powerful is when a person chooses sides, who is going to choose the eventual losing side?  I remember in the movie "The Devil's Advocate," when it is pointed out to the Devil that in the Bible God wins.  The Devil's reply, and I'm paraphrasing, is that particular history hasn't been written yet, that the Devil is going to write a new book.  That movie is funny at that point because Satan calls God out for being a dickhead.

Haha, God had to do a little PR work to keep membership up

As I'm quite busy with uni, I'll try to post now and then.

As for the question: Do muslims believe in satan or hell?
The answer is yes and yes.

Satan, in Islam called 'Shaitaan' can be everyone, also a human being. Basically a 'shaitaan' is an evil person who's actions have a negative impact on society.
Someone who makes people feel miserable or unhappy.

In the Qur'an the story of Iblis is given, a 'djinn', Iblis decided to be a  'shaitaan'. When asked to bow for Adam, Iblis refused to do so.
Iblis replied to God that since Adam was made of clay and he was made of fire, he shouldn't bow down. Iblis found himself more important, since fire shouldn't bow down for clay.
Now the Qur'an sketches this story as an important lesson for mankind; ego or self-importance is the root of all evil.
If we take a look at world history, the main source of evil came from one human being regarding himself to be better than another.

Now the concept of Satan is used in Islam to straighten people.
'Sneezing is from God, yawning is from Satan'. (cleaning your 'pipes' and laziness)
'Satan is in your nose after a night of sleep, so clean your nasal cavity in the morning'. (desert climate, infection)
'During prayer stand close to one and other or Satan will stand between you.' (A person growing suspicious if the other is standing at a distance; 'does he think he's better than I?')

Does hell exist? I think it does.
Hell could also be a threat for mankind, some verses of the Qur'an seem to indicate this.
I watched the documentaire 'Blood Diamond's' today, I think people like Foday Sankoh make it quite reasonable and neccesary.

Obligatory Christian response: God works in mysterious ways.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages51.fotki.com%2Fv1547%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F1239895198733-vi.gif&hash=bc670d2895ff0bbf6d65bcb605942301216845d2)

Quote from: "iSok"'Stand close to one and other or Satan will stand between you.' (A person growing suspicious if the other is standing at a distance; 'does he think he's better than I?')

I find this interesting. I live in an area where nuns still taught up until recently. At school dances, if a boy and a girl were getting a little too "close", I remember hearing stories of nuns coming up to them and saying "make room for Jesus!" and making them dance at arm's length.

Quote from: "DeterminedJuliet"

Quote from: "iSok"'Stand close to one and other or Satan will stand between you.' (A person growing suspicious if the other is standing at a distance; 'does he think he's better than I?')

I find this interesting. I live in an area where nuns still taught up until recently. At school dances, if a boy and a girl were getting a little too "close", I remember hearing stories of nuns coming up to them and saying "make room for Jesus!" and making them dance at arm's length.

"Remember, adolescent boys and girls: you're not safe unless there's a magical middle-aged man pressed between your bodies." Jesus is a total perv.  

Quote from: "iSok"When asked to bow for Adam, Iblis refused to do so.

Quote from: "iSok"If we take a look at world history, the main source of evil came from one human being regarding himself to be better than another.

Here I see an issue which is common with many of the religious fables. There is often a contradiction as if god or god's special favourite characters are excluded from the rule. It appears to me that Adam is being held on a pedastool and that poor Iblis is being forced to express subservience to Adam. What's wrong with respecting each other as equals?

Quote from: "iSok"(A person growing suspicious if the other is standing at a distance; 'does he think he's better than I?')

Here we see a negative consequence of religion. People now have inner suspicions, judgement and lack of trust in others.

Quote from: "Stevil"Here I see an issue which is common with many of the religious fables. There is often a contradiction as if god or god's special favourite characters are excluded from the rule. It appears to me that Adam is being held on a pedastool and that poor Iblis is being forced to express subservience to Adam. What's wrong with respecting each other as equals?

Moral of the story is that man should submit himself fully to God, and not set conditions like Iblis did, since that will lead you into error.
Iblis decided that some part of him should not follow God, out of self-importance. The Qur'an teaches that God should be the Center and
drawing some parts of the Center towards you (ego and self-importance) is a fatal mistake, since man cannot control that aspect.
It's better to submit yourself for 100% and not set any conditions than to fail and lose control of it, see again world history.

Quote from: "Stevil"Here we see a negative consequence of religion. People now have inner suspicions, judgement and lack of trust in others.

I think we misunderstood eachother a bit.
The problem lies in the nature of man, religion on the other hand encourages man to overcome this problem.

[49:12] - "Believers, avoid being excessively suspicious, for some suspicion is a sin. Do not spy, nor backbite one another. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would surely detest it. Have fear of God. Surely God is much prone to accept repentance, is Most Compassionate."

What meant here by 'Satan' is, that during prayer people should stand close to one and other.
If they keep distance, Satan might slip in and of course a believer doesn't want that, so they stand close to one and other.
If there would be a distance between two individuals, the other might think; 'Do I smell? Am I too poor? Does he think he's better than I am?'. (Caused by Satan)
This thought comes from the nature of man, which religion is against.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Stevil"Here we see a negative consequence of religion. People now have inner suspicions, judgement and lack of trust in others.

I think we misunderstood eachother a bit.
The problem lies in the nature of man, religion on the other hand encourages man to overcome this problem.

I understand perfectly what you are saying iSok but I think, given even my limited understanding of human nature, that the teachings of religion inevitibly lead to the problems that I have mentioned plus many, many other problems that I haven't explicitly listed here.
If a god were truly timeless and could see into the future before its actions are carried out, it would see what the consequences are. In this way it determines the consequences (it has total control) simply by being able to make the appropriate adjustment to its actions. We could then say the problems incurred by humankind as a result of humankind's nature coupled with humankind's understanding derived from the religious scriptures simply highlight the failings of the scriptures to communicate the intended message to the intended audience in order to illicit the intended response.

I've been on this forum long enough to know what your response will be. It will be with regards to god's desire for humans to have free will and to choose their own path/destiny and that god simply creates the right environment for this to eventuate  (am I right?).

But I am coming from an atheist perspective. A perspective where I don't have a belief in god, where I don't believe any of the scriptures were written by god's word. My point is simply that human kind would not have some of the problems that we face if it were not for the religious based scriptures. e.g. People would not have inner suspicions, judgement and lack of trust in others who choose, for whatever reason, not to stand within the distance of proximity deemed appropriate that you alluded to with regards to your story.

Quote from: "curiosityandthecat"Obligatory Christian response: God works in mysterious ways.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages51.fotki.com%2Fv1547%2Fphotos%2F8%2F892548%2F6116196%2F1239895198733-vi.gif&hash=bc670d2895ff0bbf6d65bcb605942301216845d2)

Apparently, he suffers from mental disorders...  :sigh:

Quote from: "Stevil"I understand perfectly what you are saying iSok but I think, given even my limited understanding of human nature, that the teachings of religion inevitibly lead to the problems that I have mentioned plus many, many other problems that I haven't explicitly listed here.
If a god were truly timeless and could see into the future before its actions are carried out, it would see what the consequences are. In this way it determines the consequences (it has total control) simply by being able to make the appropriate adjustment to its actions. We could then say the problems incurred by humankind as a result of humankind's nature coupled with humankind's understanding derived from the religious scriptures simply highlight the failings of the scriptures to communicate the intended message to the intended audience in order to illicit the intended response.

Do you mean the following in the context of God?

1. Man needs scriptures for guidance.
2. Scriptures are given to man.
3. Scriptures don't make a difference.
4. Scriptures failed.

I don't think that God ever intend to set up an utopia on Earth. An utopia would simply destroy the whole concept that God has set up.
As I discussed in the other thread. No Evil = No purpose for society = Anarchy = Chaos = Evil
God could have never showed Himself to man, and we would only meet Him after our death.
In the case of punishment (hell/heaven), I think we would object, our most important objection would be: You never warned us.
The most important aspect of scriptures is the warning for man.

[74:36]-  "a warning to humankind."

So we will not say: We were not warned.
From this warning comes guidance. Honestly, since I became religious I think I also have become a better person.
It's the weird feeling that: 'Somebody is always watching'.
Society however can be spoiled by just one person. I think religion focuses on the individual and a way less on society.
That there are wars, does not mean that the majority of people want it. Most of the time it has been started by a few people.

Quote from: "Stevil"But I am coming from an atheist perspective. A perspective where I don't have a belief in god, where I don't believe any of the scriptures were written by god's word. My point is simply that human kind would not have some of the problems that we face if it were not for the religious based scriptures. e.g. People would not have inner suspicions, judgement and lack of trust in others who choose, for whatever reason, not to stand within the distance of proximity deemed appropriate that you alluded to with regards to your story.

Does this mean that atheist do not have inner suspicions, judgement or lack of trust in others?

Quote from: "iSok"Do you mean the following in the context of God?

1. Man needs scriptures for guidance.
2. Scriptures are given to man.
3. Scriptures don't make a difference.
4. Scriptures failed.

No, try this
1. Human kind surviving oblivious to god theories
2. Some Humans persuaded to belief in god/s and follow scriptures
3. Some Humans read meaning into scriptures and behave untoward due to their reactions to the scriptures
4. Scriptures cause new issues upon human kind

So now we have people going around chastising homosexuals, fighting people from other religions, denying and hampering progress, holding women back from having an equal value in society. Disown Children who do not follow the same religion or marry partners of different religion/denomination. Have inner suspicions, judgement or lack of trust in others who do not stand within the deemed appropriate dimensional distance from other people.

Quote from: "iSok"Does this mean that atheist do not have inner suspicions, judgement or lack of trust in others?

Atheists are just as human as theists. But of course atheists failings do are not sourced from religious scripture. If you ask atheists on this site you will see an overwhelming support for homosexuals. Overwhelming supplort for progress, overwhelming support for equal rights not just for women but for everyone. I doubt any atheist would disown their children because they chose to be theist, or married a theist. We don't have suspicions, judgement or lack of trust in people based on teachings in scripture. But there are other reasons why we might have suspicions, jusdgement or lack or trust. These other reasons also apply to theists. It is just that atheists have less reasons given that there are no scriptures for atheists.

Quote from: "Stevil"No, try this
1. Human kind surviving oblivious to god theories
2. Some Humans persuaded to belief in god/s and follow scriptures
3. Some Humans read meaning into scriptures and behave untoward due to their reactions to the scriptures
4. Scriptures cause new issues upon human kind

So now we have people going around chastising homosexuals, fighting people from other religions, denying and hampering progress, holding women back from having an equal value in society. Disown Children who do not follow the same religion or marry partners of different religion/denomination. Have inner suspicions, judgement or lack of trust in others who do not stand within the deemed appropriate dimensional distance from other people.

Atheists are just as human as theists. But of course atheists failings do are not sourced from religious scripture. If you ask atheists on this site you will see an overwhelming support for homosexuals. Overwhelming supplort for progress, overwhelming support for equal rights not just for women but for everyone. I doubt any atheist would disown their children because they chose to be theist, or married a theist. We don't have suspicions, judgement or lack of trust in people based on teachings in scripture. But there are other reasons why we might have suspicions, jusdgement or lack or trust. These other reasons also apply to theists. It is just that atheists have less reasons given that there are no scriptures for atheists.

So if I'm right, you are of the opinion that without religions, in particular scriptures. The world would be a better place?
Do you mean the main Abrahamic scriptures (the Tenach, the Gospel & the Qur'an) or also eastern religions? Like Taoism, Shintoism,  Hinduism, Bhuddism and so on.

And what do you view as progress? Let's say, what is the main purpose of society?
I understand that you want to understand the world by science, but what is the purpose behind that?
What's the main purpose of science for man? On what path should human beings walk?
How would you like to view the future? What are your wishes?

Quote from: "iSok"So if I'm right, you are of the opinion that without religions, in particular scriptures. The world would be a better place?
Do you mean the main Abrahamic scriptures (the Tenach, the Gospel & the Qur'an) or also eastern religions? Like Taoism, Shintoism,  Hinduism, Bhuddism and so on.

Any scriptures that tell people how to think rather than teach information and encourage people to think for themselves.

Quote from: "iSok"And what do you view as progress?

Tolerance, Equality, Freedom, Responsibilities, Choices...

Quote from: "iSok"I understand that you want to understand the world by science,

No, Science is not my Bible. I find science interesting, I agree with their methods of Hypothesising, Testing, Challenging, Refining, etc. But i don't agree with everything Science has come up with. I like to engage my brain as well and hypothesis for myself. You could say I am a bit of a free thinker.

Quote from: "iSok"but what is the purpose behind that?

My goal isn't to find a purpose, I am quite happy without one.

Quote from: "iSok"What's the main purpose of science for man? On what path should human beings walk?

I try to avoid the word "should", I am only qualified to speak for myself.

Quote from: "iSok"How would you like to view the future? What are your wishes?

I hope to build a strong foundation in my lovely daughters. I hope to help foster within themselves confidence, self esteem, compassion, independance, to be open to change, to not be afraid of trying things, to not be afraid of failure, to be tolerant of others and themselves, to live healthy and fulfilling lives (whatever that may mean to them). I want to see them flourish.
I also want to make my wife happy. I am at my happiest when she is happy.
I would also like to see more of the world. I love exploring new places, new cultures and seeing much of the beauty that the world has to offer.
I would also like to see my parents happy, and to experience new and exciting things, unfortunately time is far too short for all of us.

What about you iSok?

Quote from: "Stevil"Any scriptures that tell people how to think rather than teach information and encourage people to think for themselves.
Tolerance, Equality, Freedom, Responsibilities, Choices...
No, Science is not my Bible. I find science interesting, I agree with their methods of Hypothesising, Testing, Challenging, Refining, etc. But i don't agree with everything Science has come up with. I like to engage my brain as well and hypothesis for myself. You could say I am a bit of a free thinker.
My goal isn't to find a purpose, I am quite happy without one.
I try to avoid the word "should", I am only qualified to speak for myself.
I hope to build a strong foundation in my lovely daughters. I hope to help foster within themselves confidence, self esteem, compassion, independance, to be open to change, to not be afraid of trying things, to not be afraid of failure, to be tolerant of others and themselves, to live healthy and fulfilling lives (whatever that may mean to them). I want to see them flourish.
I also want to make my wife happy. I am at my happiest when she is happy.
I would also like to see more of the world. I love exploring new places, new cultures and seeing much of the beauty that the world has to offer.
I would also like to see my parents happy, and to experience new and exciting things, unfortunately time is far too short for all of us.

Well, what I mean Stevil is, that I think that people in general are more happy with religion.
I understand that a lot of members here see religion as something evil, I understand that but I don't agree.

You view Tolerance, Equality, Freedom, Responsbilities and Choices as progress.
But you have to understand that all those values have limits in every society, they don't mean a lot.
They only have substantial value if you explain the contexts and the meanings attached to these values.

Can you be a bit more specific? Can you give an example where scripture is telling people how to think?

Quote from: "Stevil"What about you iSok?

We all want the same. We just have different opinions about the method.

Quote from: "iSok"We all want the same. We just have different opinions about the method.

I do not want the same as you. I want to see a world free of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, etc, etc, etc, I want  a world where humans are brave enough and grown up enough to leave the comfort blankets of religion behind. Than and only then will we be free to address the real problems of pollution and unmanaged population growth. As a Muslim you believe all that happens is the will of Allah therefore you have no right, no right whatsoever to question anything that happens in the world. You cannot 'want' anything, how can a puppet and plaything of Allah dare to 'want' anything? You'll be given what he wants you to have, nothing more and nothing less. You can not speak for Allah.

Quote from: "iSok"Well, what I mean Stevil is, that I think that people in general are more happy with religion.

I'm not sure that simply being happy is the goal or purpose and I certainly don't think that the ends justifies the means.
Some mentally impared people seem extremely happy almost all the time (from what I have seen).  I don't want to be mentally impared in order to be happy.
Some people take lots of recreational drugs to be happy. I don't want to waste my life on meaningless moments in order to be happy.

Quote from: "iSok"You view Tolerance, Equality, Freedom, Responsbilities and Choices as progress.
But you have to understand that all those values have limits in every society, they don't mean a lot.

They may not mean a lot to you, but they are the bare essentials to me. I get annoyed when these values are impacted unnecessarily by governments, religions, traditions, ignorance and status quo thinking. I would like to see significant progress in my lifetime. Don't you find it simply rediculous that America gets excited about its first African American president. First in how many years? They have never had a female president, never had a muslim or jewish president, never had an American Indian president. I look forward to a time where people do not get excited but simply expect all sorts of capable people becoming the American President.
I am really annoyed at the backwards thinking of some Christian denominations which won't let Women into high positions, are these old virgin men afraid of women? I would like the governement to step in and either enforce equality or disband these organisations.
I am horrified as to how Arab/Muslim nations treat woman, as if they are nothing but sex objects which are hidden away from society and only uncovered for acts of sex in their man owner's bedroom. Why would a sex object need to drive a car or rent a hotel room, or travel shouldn't they be back at home tending to their man's needs? Grrrrrr!

Quote from: "iSok"They only have substantial value if you explain the contexts and the meanings attached to these values.

I am happy for you to apply these values to any context you wish. The beauty of them is that they work universally. If you want to attach meaning then you may wish to use a dictionary, the meaning is widely known.

Quote from: "iSok"Can you be a bit more specific? Can you give an example where scripture is telling people how to think?

Surley you don't need me to provide examples, scriptures are all about moral lessons, teaching people how to think and behave. They are not simply a collection of stories for entertainment.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Stevil"What about you iSok?

We all want the same. We just have different opinions about the method.

I am actually quite disappointed. I answer your question with open honesty and integrity, pour my personal feelings out into a post within a thread on a public forum and all I get back is this with regards to you avoiding to answer your own question. Do you think I have been able to learn about who you are, what makes you tick from this answer of yours? Has it given me something to think about with regards to what a muslim may think about, wish for, with regards to the future?