Happy Atheist Forum

Hello, I'm new and excited at the prospect of posting on here!! I am going to a coffee morning this week with fellow mothers from my children's school. It may involve some Bible study  :hmm: ) and if they don't, it just comes down to it all being "God's plan".

For those of you who have come over from the Dark Side (Christianity)   into the light and clarity of atheism, what was it that finally did it, and made you see that the whole God thing was a load of fairy nonsense?

Thank you!!

PS, what's a "Bot"? I had to decide whether or not am I one when I registered, but have no idea what it means! And "Padawan Learner"???!

Welcome to the forums.

The #1 argument I think is the 1# argument for not accepting anything else to exist: lack of evidence and nothing leads to a god. We have reasons to suppose that there is gravity by things falling toward the earth, we have reasons for accepting wind because we can see it affect things, we even have reasons to posite something that is unproven like dark matter because of the effects... however there is no rational reason to propose a god, let alone a specific kind of god or any of a gods attributes, preferences and/or abilities.

The bot in this context is a program that is designed to register to a forum usually for the purposes of submitting spam posts. "Padawan Learner" is just the rank you're at, make more posts to get a different title.

Hi DBIB!

Welcome to HAF.

The 'bot' question on login is there to identify you as a human being as opposed to a 'SPAM Bot'. A SPAM Bot is a program that trawls around the internet looking for forums it can log onto and create an account/membership. When it has done this it creates posts with links in them back to some other site. SPAM Bots are generally incapable of reading a screen in the same way a person is, it therefore can't respond correctly to the question 'are you a bot' and is thus identified as one and the account creation is stopped.

Your forum rank 'Padawan Learner' updates as your post count increases, I think the first change happens on your 50th post when you get posting access to all the areas outside 'Getting to Know you'

This thread viewtopic.php?p=98649#p98649 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=98649#p98649) may be worth reading as it deals with your main interest of why people stop being theists. So does this one viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7237 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7237)

I hope these give you some insights, post any questions you have here.

I would have thought a 'Devout Atheist' is an oxymoron!  

Regards
Chris

I left Christianity behind well before I became an atheist.  

The issue with reconciling a loving god with something as evil as hell was a big deal breaker.  Even viewing hell as total destruction of the sinning soul didn't sit right because the punishment was based on faith as opposed to the true nature of the person.  I didn't see why God would care what religion someone is or if they have any religion at all; nor why an all knowing god would create people knowing that most would be going to hell.  In short, when you break Christianity down to basics it just doesn't make any sense.

Welcome! Good luck with these future meet ups.

My number one argument against god is the evidence of human fingerprints left all over every description and assertion about god. These include: fishy similarities between gods/characters in religions, yet the denial of this, the sneaky amendments made to religion modern to fit the needs of modern citizens, the moral inconsistencies, and the fact the existence of god fables appear to just be a human coping skill. We do, afterall, deal with some scary stuff in life, and it makes sense to me some people would need help ("perfect" and "divine" help) making sense of it.

Quote from: "Davin"The bot in this context is a program that is designed to register to a forum usually for the purposes of submitting spam posts.

Alternatively, it's a scout for the search engine so they know what this thing is about.

To address the title question, there was no such "blow" in my case.

Quote from: "dontbelieveinbeatles"So I wanted to ask if you could help me with some ammunition ... basically, what do you consider to beTHE most convincing arguments for there being no God? Christians always seem to have an answer for everything (and I often don't, unfortunately   ) and if they don't, it just comes down to it all being "God's plan".

Welcome!

Well it depends of what they're claiming their god is. I would make them question their answers.

In the end of "The God Delusion" there is a passage where Dawkins talks about a person (he seemed to know her personally) who converted to Atheism. She explains that one day, as she was walking, a little voice in here head whispered to her words out of which she initially couldn't make sense. Then the whisper became louder, and louder to the point where she could distinctly hear: "There is no god". She was surprised and very scared, but she eventually accepted it. I had a very strikingly similar experience. The point that I am trying to make is that conversion comes from within. It is the final step of a very long and difficult internal process. Indeed, the brain has powerful immune defenses that it will wield against any thoughts that go against religion. Nevertheless conversion needs arguments, and there are plenty. Start with logical incoherences, Whitney rightfully points out the disconnect between loving humans and sending them for eternity in Hell if they "mis-behave". There are plenty more: why send your son to be killed when you can just forgive forgive humanity (it sounds much simpler than creating the Universe), why did God create us with major flaws, etc... I feel that there is one thing that needs to be stressed out, group, then self, indoctrination is very hard to break down. I feel that the best thing you can do is lead by example. As a species, we need to see that other member of our group can live a healthy and happy life with beliefs that are different from ours before we can consider embracing such beliefs. Ask questions, do not sound judgmental or pedantic, you will trigger a defensive state of mind thereby shortening the reach of your future arguments. Instead present your arguments in the form of calm, simple, questions. Do not lose your temper, and accept the power of the brain to stubbornly refuse the apparently blatant evidence. Finally, explain the alternative to God. The idea of a life without a God is completely foreign to these ladies (I know because I was there), or even worse, it is associated with sadness, despair, evil, and other bad things. Either way, the simple fact that you are an atheist and you are managing to live a positive life is already a great argument that these mothers have to acknowledge.

I don't think your goal should be to convert the Christians, just show them that you are a decent person who doesn't deserve to go to hell simply for not believing in their god.
You might want to explain that it is difficult for you to link the creation of the universe as definately being caused by a god that was already there and that it is hard to see that there is a god given that the god is invisible and unobservable. You can't simply decide to believe in something, and voila, you have a belief.

Quote from: "Cosmo"In the end of "The God Delusion" there is a passage where Dawkins talks about a person (he seemed to know her personally) who converted to Atheism. She explains that one day, as she was walking, a little voice in here head whispered to her words out of which she initially couldn't make sense. Then the whisper became louder, and louder to the point where she could distinctly hear: "There is no god". She was surprised and very scared, but she eventually accepted it. I had a very strikingly similar experience. The point that I am trying to make is that conversion comes from within. It is the final step of a very long and difficult internal process. Indeed, the brain has powerful immune defenses that it will wield against any thoughts that go against religion. Nevertheless conversion needs arguments, and there are plenty. Start with logical incoherences, Whitney rightfully points out the disconnect between loving humans and sending them for eternity in Hell if they "mis-behave". There are plenty more: why send your son to be killed when you can just forgive forgive humanity (it sounds much simpler than creating the Universe), why did God create us with major flaws, etc... I feel that there is one thing that needs to be stressed out, group, then self, indoctrination is very hard to break down. I feel that the best thing you can do is lead by example. As a species, we need to see that other member of our group can live a healthy and happy life with beliefs that are different from ours before we can consider embracing such beliefs. Ask questions, do not sound judgmental or pedantic, you will trigger a defensive state of mind thereby shortening the reach of your future arguments. Instead present your arguments in the form of calm, simple, questions. Do not lose your temper, and accept the power of the brain to stubbornly refuse the apparently blatant evidence. Finally, explain the alternative to God. The idea of a life without a God is completely foreign to these ladies (I know because I was there), or even worse, it is associated with sadness, despair, evil, and other bad things. Either way, the simple fact that you are an atheist and you are managing to live a positive life is already a great argument that these mothers have to acknowledge.

This is a very good wall of text I agree, Cosmo.

Thank you  

I'm not sure I have an argument that would sway someone who has faith. I think for me, proof was looking at the people around me and seeing that their "faith" allowed them to excuse all sorts of ridiculous (xenophobic, racist, homophobic, hypocritical, cruel, etc.) behavior. Also, the fact that their faith was based on a book that was written long after the said events occurred and that it was filled with so many ridiculous claims and contradictions that there was no way I could ever believe in anything so outrageous. In the end, I think it comes down to a matter of faith more than anything else. Atheists can be given all sorts of "proof" that god exists and atheists can give religious people evidence to the contrary. I can't tell you how many debates I've had with my family members about how and why the earth is most definitely not 5,000 years old. They think I'm a liar because they believe that god is like a bawss and can do anything when and where and how he chooses. Science be damned.

I never really had a defining moment...my father taught us both aspects, creation, and evolution, and also made it clear one could combine both. I suppose I was 13 or 14 when I became "convinced" there was no god. Been a Happy Atheist for the next 35 years, seeing my beliefs more verified and accepted during that time.

Here is my manifesto; http://www.n8wct.com/evolve/

One of my favorite points: The Bible was written by man, NOT by God, so it needs to be treated like it.

Quote from: "Stevil"I don't think your goal should be to convert the Christians...

I agree.  It very rarely works, and if you did ever undermine a person's faith, you might be responsible for some very negative spin-offs.  Bear in mind that many people rely on religion to plaster over some nasty personal problems.

If you know that a person is wavering and wants convincing, that might be different.

When I do attack religious belief, my own personal #1 tactic is ridicule.  Far better than civilised argument.

Meanwhile, sit tight, be firm and don't provoke lasting trouble.

For me there was never a defining moment or a "final blow" I guess it was more a process of study combined with my refusal to label my beliefs until I had at least read the religious texts and adsorb as much historical information we know about those periods of time.

I had never been religious in the first place to begin with even though I went to a church of England primary school and my parents use to be of the faith. It was at this school I started to question the teachings of the bible at around the age of eight when I realized that people believed the stories to be fact, prior to that age they had always been nothing more than stories about morals and no different from fairy tales (rather bad ones at that). This was when I started to question religion and none of my teachers, relatives, or friends parents could give me answers that actually fulfilled why they believed what they did or why I should believe it. That is my defining point of questioning religion.

It was only when I got to the age of 18 that I decided it was time to start looking at what I believed as I had never really formed a true opinion on the area. The first thing I encountered emotionally was anger (and disgust) verging towards hatred whilst reading the three monotheistic books, which was then well and truly pushed into hatred when i started looking at history but always kept a neutral head and open-minded view, even though it was really getting me wound up. When looking at what had been done to cultures that had an opposing belief system and had therefore been destroyed and painted with a large brushstroke of barbarianism, when intellectually and technically they were more advance as a society it fully hit how religion was the ultimate tool of governments and went back to the books to look at what was being said in comparison to the historical evidence. During that re-read I came to the full conclusion that even if that god did exist it was just as flawed as the people that worshiped him and not worthy of worship. The other main conclusion I arrived at is the god depicted in the books is not a god at all but an imaginary judge that is created by the masses that is different to every person and can justify/condemn every action, whilst also evolve with society and fit into various roles that is required for different people.

Oh forgot to mention.

Even though initially I felt hatred towards religion that quickly evaporated when I took my head out of the books and started to mull over what I had adsorbed and became totally accepting of the differences in human nature. Also when reading the texts relating to Taoism and Buddhism, even though I don't fully agree with them the teachings are positive and is proof that not all religions are negative. I would highly recommend reading the "Tao Te Ching" (Stephen Addiss and Stanley Lombardo translation) looking at it from its original philosophical stand point before it was adapted into a religion, there is a reason that Lao Tze is considered the Chinese version of Plato.

Born an Atheist, Raised a Catholic, made myself an Atheist again...yay me.

Seriously though, I was a Wiccan/Pagan for about 12 years, and I left Catholicism due to the point that I saw it as a bunch of BS and borrowed fuckery from Paganism. When I left Paganism, it was because I realized that I never believed any of it to begin with, and was like...hey, I don't need this shit. And here I am.

I was 13 (now 21) when I got away from Catholicism pretty much because everything in the world I could see and understand. Except God. So what's the point of devoting time and energy into something that you are just supposed to believe in? Over the years I've had plenty of Christian friends tell me that I am wrong and that I'm going to hell (to which I reply 'good heaven sounds boring anyway'). If anyone has ever tried to convert you then you're probably aware of how illogical and obnoxious it is. That's just my logic, and it doesn't really work against Christians.

*ahem*

What was the final blow that turned you into an atheist?

Birth.

*ba dum*  

Interesting topic.

For me, it was a series of steps, not one huge blow. My relationship with OCD had a lot to do with it. Really, though, I was sitting in my astronomy class one day and realized how incredibly large and complex the universe is. I went from that class to my Religion 101 class, and for the first time I shifted from agnostic to atheist. It was brief, but I remember it distinctly enough to reflect upon that moment when I consider the first moment I stopped being uncertain and realized there is no safety net.

Of course, since leaving Christianity altogether, I have been a much happier person. Focusing on making this life a good one, meaningful and well-lived, has given me all kinds of new direction. :yay:

Welcome to HAF

I'm a new girl too. I only joined 3 days ago and I'm glad I did. Hope you will be too.
I became an atheist at a young age, maybe 12. During a Religious Education class in school one day it suddenly dawned on me how absurd the bible really is. Ironically, I began to enjoy RE afterwards. I hated it when I was a believer!
In school we were allowed to ask questions, even encouraged. One boy stood up and asked "Why are we all punished because Adam and Eve ate a piece of fruit but rewarded for murdering the son of god?" I think that was the moment for me. Our teacher gave us some glib answers but I don't think any of us were impressed. I don't think the teacher was either. She certainly didn't like the question!
If I was you I wouldn't initiate any conversations about religion with your friends. If they insist on it, however, that's different. Most Christians I debate with invariably ask these 2 questions.

How was the universe created?

From where do we get our morality?

They claim that 'nothing can come from nothing' but they will immediately contradict themselves if you simply ask them "so where did your god come from?" I point out the obvious fact that even if they could establish that some kind of intelligent entity made the universe, why does it have to be Yahweh? I usually object to the loaded word 'creation/creator.'

They also claim moral laws must have a law-giver. 'Law' is another loaded word and Christians use it a lot. They also have an annoying habit of conflating two very different categories of 'law' - prescriptive (man made) laws and descriptive (physical) laws. Human morality comes from humans via human interaction, trial and error, over time. It's very simple. Nobody wants to be raped, murdered or robbed so we make laws against rape, murder and robbery. If we didn't, anarchy would prevail, something that is obviously undesirable. We don't need any sky daddy to tell us that.
You can point to the appalling 'morality' in the bible. If morals do come from 'God' then we don't know what they are. No two Christians have exactly the same set of morals, not even members of the same congregation. Christians may be split 50/50 on the death penalty, for example. Which side is right? At least half the world's Christians are Catholics who can sin for a week then wipe the slate clean at confession, then start another week of sinning.
There's a lot more problems with the Divine Command Theory but I've already babbled on long enough, and this isn't the thread to go into great detail. There are a lot of bright people here, much brighter than I am. We'll both learn a lot here.
Welcome again.

In my final year of university I did a seminar course on the Holocaust. After an entire semester of researching the absolute evils that human beings can do to each other for no good reason, I just couldn't fathom the existence of of any kind of intelligent higher power. That was the real turning point for me.

I think it depends on what your motive is. Ammunition seems to allude to a need to be combative. There is no use or joy in that. Instead take an evolutionary standpoint on it and realize that everyone evolved from the same gene pool. In that gene pool and in some degrees in all of us is the capacity in our brains to form strong irrational beliefs. That is why religion and superstition are so prevalent, but all are so different. So you can say that genes created the capacity for our biology to form beliefs. From there culture and experience take over and the way that our biology responds will determine our beliefs, whether it be voodoo, Catholicism, Wicken, Judaism, agnostic, secular or atheist. These fundamental beliefs that drive us are all facilitated by the same biology. Once you are in that mindset you will see the futility in overt confrontation. It would be like trying to convince someone who prefers grape jelly that not only is strawberry jelly better but grape jelly doesn’t exist. In their mind not only does grape jelly exist, but it is by far and away their favorite. Conversations about belief should never be persuasive. Now, I fully understand that for the most part people of strong Christian devotion will try to persuade you , so you have to view this behavior as part of their religious experience. Just as Muslims kneel, and Hindus meditate certain Christians as a part of their religion will try to persuade.