Happy Atheist Forum

But of course, we knew this all along

Religion set for extinction in NZ, says US study
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10714235

Here is the full research paper http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/101 ... 1375v2.pdf (http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1012/1012.1375v2.pdf)

It makes very interesting reading.

Quote43 per cent of children under 15 years were recorded as having no religion, compared with 11.8 per cent of people aged 65 years or older.

Doesn't surprise me, but sure looks promising.

If we could only add USA to the list of 9!  Maybe I've been a bit too harsh on Canada throughout my lifetime.  Before now, I just didn't see any reason for the USA not to annex Canada.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/23/losing-religion-study-finds-religion-extinct-parts-world/?test=latestnews
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1012/1012.1375v2.pdf

Isn't massive apostasy within Christianity a sign of the end of the world?

Quote from: "iSok"Isn't massive apostasy within Christianity a sign of the end of the world?

It's also a sign that we're progressing.

In any case, it isn't massive sudden apostasy that's happening. What's happening is a slow deconversion process occurring in society as a whole.

Quote from: "iSok"Isn't massive apostasy within Christianity a sign of the end of the world?

Only if you believe in the ancient mythology of an institutionalised superstition  

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "iSok"Isn't massive apostasy within Christianity a sign of the end of the world?

Only if you believe in the ancient mythology of an institutionalised superstition  :D
(Since we accept Christianity as a belief from God)

EDIT: Out of curiousity, I looked up what the 'signs of the end' were according to Islam, it's a whole list...
Some of them do look interesting.


   1. The disappearance of knowledge and the appearance of ignorance (Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, & Ahmad)
   2. Books/writing will be widespread and (religious) knowledge will be low (Ahmad)
   3. Adultery and fornication will be prevalent (Muhammad said that this has never happened without new diseases befalling the people, which their ancestors had not known.) (Bukhari, Muslim)
   4. When fornication becomes widespread among your leaders (Muhammad said that this will happen when the people stop forbidding evil) (Ibn Majah)
  5. Adultery and fornication will be performed in the open
   6. The consumption of intoxicants will be widespread (Bukhari & Muslim)
   7. Women will outnumber men......eventually 50:1 (Bukhari, Muslim, & Ahmad)
   8. Killing, killing, killing (Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, & Ahmad)
   9. The nations of the earth will gather against the Muslims like hungry people going to sit down to a table full of food. This will occur when the Muslims are large in number, but "like the foam of the sea".
  10. People will beat others with whips like the tails of oxen (Muslim)?
  11. The children will be filled with rage (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  12. Children will be foul (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  13. Women will conspire (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  14. Rain will be acidic or burning (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  15. Children of fornication will become widespread or prevalent (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  16. When a trust becomes a means of making a profit (at-Tirmidhi, Al-Haythami)
  17. Gains will be shared out only among the rich, with no benefit to the poor (at-Tirmidhi)
  18. Paying zakat becomes a burden and miserliness becomes widespread; charity is given reluctantly (at-Tirmidhi & Al-Haythami)
  19. Miserliness will be thrown into the hearts of people (Bukhari)
  20. Episodes of sudden death will become widespread (Ahmad)
  21. There will be people who will be brethren in public but enemies in secret (He was asked how that would come about and replied, "Because they will have ulterior motives in their mutual dealings and at the      same time will fear one another.") (at-Tirmidhi)
  22. When a man obeys his wife and disobeys his mother; and treats his friend kindly while shunning his father (at-Tirmidhi)
  23. When voices are raised in the mosques (at-Tirmidhi)
  24. People will walk in the marketplace with their thighs exposed
 25. Great distances will be traversed in short spans of time
  26. The people of Iraq will receive no food and no money due to oppression by the Romans (Europeans) (Muslim)
 27. People will hop between the clouds and the earth
  28. A tribulation will enter everyone's home (Ahmad)
  29. The leader of a people will be the worst of them (at-Tirmidhi)
  30. Leaders of people will be oppressors (Al-Haythami)
  31. People will treat a man with respect out of fear for some evil he might do (at-Tirmidhi)
  32. Men will begin to wear silk (at-Tirmidhi)
  33. Female singers and musical instruments will become popular (at-Tirmidhi)
  34. When singers become common (Al-Haythami)
  35. People will dance late into the night
  36. When the last ones of the Ummah begin to curse the first ones (at-Tirmidhi)
  37. People will claim to follow the Qur'an but will reject hadith & sunnah (Abu Dawood)
  38. People will believe in the stars (Al-Haythami)
  39. People will reject al-Qadr (the Divine Decree of Destiny) (Al-Haythami)
  40. Time will pass rapidly (Bukhari, Muslim, & Ahmad)
  41. Good deeds will decrease (Bukhari)
 42. Smog will appear over cities because of the evil that they are doing
  43. People will be carrying on with their trade, but their will only be a few trustworthy persons
  44. Wealth will increase so much so that if a man were given 10,000, he would not be content with it (Ahmad & Bukhari)
  45. A man will pass by a grave and wish that he was in their place (Bukhari)
  46. Earthquakes will increase (Bukhari & Muslim)
  47. There will be attempts to make the deserts green
  48. The appearance of false messengers (30 dajjals) (Bukhari)
 49. Women will be naked in spite of being dressed, these women will be led astray & will lead others astray (Muslim)
  50. The conquest of Constantinople by the Muslims (Ahmad)
  51. The conquest of India by the Muslims, just prior to the return of Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon both of them)(Ahmad, an-Nisa'i, at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
 52. When people begin to compete with others in the construction of taller buildings (Bukhari)
  53. There will be a special greeting for the people of distinction (Ahmad)
  54. The Euphrates will disclose a treasure (Muhammad said that whoever is present should not take anything from it) (Bukhari & Muslim)
  55. Two large groups, adhering to the same religious teaching will fight each other with large numbers of casualties (Bukhari & Muslim)
  56. Wild animals will be able to talk to humans (Ahmad)
 57. A man will leave his home and his thigh or hip will tell him what is happening back at his home (Ahmad)
  58. Years of deceit in which the truthful person will not be believed and the liar will be believed (Ahmad)
  59. Bearing false witness will become widespread (Al-Haythami & Ahmad)
 60. When men lie with men and women lie with women (Al-Haythami)
  61. Trade will become so widespread that a woman will be forced to help her husband in business (Ahmad)
 62. A woman will enter the workforce out of love for this world (Ahmad)
  63. Arrogance will increase in the earth (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  64. Family ties will be cut (Ahmad)
  65. There will be many women of child-bearing age who will no longer give birth.
  66. There will be an abundance of food, much of which has no blessing in it.
  67. People will refuse when offered food.
 68. Men will begin to look like women and women will begin to look like men.

[spoiler:246z011j]

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "iSok"Isn't massive apostasy within Christianity a sign of the end of the world?

Only if you believe in the ancient mythology of an institutionalised superstition  :D
(Since we accept Christianity as a belief from God)

EDIT: Out of curiousity, I looked up what the 'signs of the end' were according to Islam, it's a whole list...
Some of them do look interesting.


   1. The disappearance of knowledge and the appearance of ignorance (Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, & Ahmad)
   2. Books/writing will be widespread and (religious) knowledge will be low (Ahmad)
   3. Adultery and fornication will be prevalent (Muhammad said that this has never happened without new diseases befalling the people, which their ancestors had not known.) (Bukhari, Muslim)
   4. When fornication becomes widespread among your leaders (Muhammad said that this will happen when the people stop forbidding evil) (Ibn Majah)
  5. Adultery and fornication will be performed in the open
   6. The consumption of intoxicants will be widespread (Bukhari & Muslim)
   7. Women will outnumber men......eventually 50:1 (Bukhari, Muslim, & Ahmad)
   8. Killing, killing, killing (Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, & Ahmad)
   9. The nations of the earth will gather against the Muslims like hungry people going to sit down to a table full of food. This will occur when the Muslims are large in number, but "like the foam of the sea".
  10. People will beat others with whips like the tails of oxen (Muslim)?
  11. The children will be filled with rage (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  12. Children will be foul (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  13. Women will conspire (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  14. Rain will be acidic or burning (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  15. Children of fornication will become widespread or prevalent (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  16. When a trust becomes a means of making a profit (at-Tirmidhi, Al-Haythami)
  17. Gains will be shared out only among the rich, with no benefit to the poor (at-Tirmidhi)
  18. Paying zakat becomes a burden and miserliness becomes widespread; charity is given reluctantly (at-Tirmidhi & Al-Haythami)
  19. Miserliness will be thrown into the hearts of people (Bukhari)
  20. Episodes of sudden death will become widespread (Ahmad)
  21. There will be people who will be brethren in public but enemies in secret (He was asked how that would come about and replied, "Because they will have ulterior motives in their mutual dealings and at the      same time will fear one another.") (at-Tirmidhi)
  22. When a man obeys his wife and disobeys his mother; and treats his friend kindly while shunning his father (at-Tirmidhi)
  23. When voices are raised in the mosques (at-Tirmidhi)
  24. People will walk in the marketplace with their thighs exposed
 25. Great distances will be traversed in short spans of time
  26. The people of Iraq will receive no food and no money due to oppression by the Romans (Europeans) (Muslim)
 27. People will hop between the clouds and the earth
  28. A tribulation will enter everyone's home (Ahmad)
  29. The leader of a people will be the worst of them (at-Tirmidhi)
  30. Leaders of people will be oppressors (Al-Haythami)
  31. People will treat a man with respect out of fear for some evil he might do (at-Tirmidhi)
  32. Men will begin to wear silk (at-Tirmidhi)
  33. Female singers and musical instruments will become popular (at-Tirmidhi)
  34. When singers become common (Al-Haythami)
  35. People will dance late into the night
  36. When the last ones of the Ummah begin to curse the first ones (at-Tirmidhi)
  37. People will claim to follow the Qur'an but will reject hadith & sunnah (Abu Dawood)
  38. People will believe in the stars (Al-Haythami)
  39. People will reject al-Qadr (the Divine Decree of Destiny) (Al-Haythami)
  40. Time will pass rapidly (Bukhari, Muslim, & Ahmad)
  41. Good deeds will decrease (Bukhari)
 42. Smog will appear over cities because of the evil that they are doing
  43. People will be carrying on with their trade, but their will only be a few trustworthy persons
  44. Wealth will increase so much so that if a man were given 10,000, he would not be content with it (Ahmad & Bukhari)
  45. A man will pass by a grave and wish that he was in their place (Bukhari)
  46. Earthquakes will increase (Bukhari & Muslim)
  47. There will be attempts to make the deserts green
  48. The appearance of false messengers (30 dajjals) (Bukhari)
 49. Women will be naked in spite of being dressed, these women will be led astray & will lead others astray (Muslim)
  50. The conquest of Constantinople by the Muslims (Ahmad)
  51. The conquest of India by the Muslims, just prior to the return of Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon both of them)(Ahmad, an-Nisa'i, at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
 52. When people begin to compete with others in the construction of taller buildings (Bukhari)
  53. There will be a special greeting for the people of distinction (Ahmad)
  54. The Euphrates will disclose a treasure (Muhammad said that whoever is present should not take anything from it) (Bukhari & Muslim)
  55. Two large groups, adhering to the same religious teaching will fight each other with large numbers of casualties (Bukhari & Muslim)
  56. Wild animals will be able to talk to humans (Ahmad)
 57. A man will leave his home and his thigh or hip will tell him what is happening back at his home (Ahmad)
  58. Years of deceit in which the truthful person will not be believed and the liar will be believed (Ahmad)
  59. Bearing false witness will become widespread (Al-Haythami & Ahmad)
 60. When men lie with men and women lie with women (Al-Haythami)
  61. Trade will become so widespread that a woman will be forced to help her husband in business (Ahmad)
 62. A woman will enter the workforce out of love for this world (Ahmad)
  63. Arrogance will increase in the earth (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  64. Family ties will be cut (Ahmad)
  65. There will be many women of child-bearing age who will no longer give birth.
  66. There will be an abundance of food, much of which has no blessing in it.
  67. People will refuse when offered food.
 68. Men will begin to look like women and women will begin to look like men.

[/spoiler:246z011j]

None of that is very interesting to me at all.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "iSok"Isn't massive apostasy within Christianity a sign of the end of the world?

Only if you believe in the ancient mythology of an institutionalised superstition  :D
(Since we accept Christianity as a belief from God)

EDIT: Out of curiousity, I looked up what the 'signs of the end' were according to Islam, it's a whole list...
Some of them do look interesting.


     4. When fornication becomes widespread among your leaders (Muhammad said that this will happen when the people stop forbidding evil) (Ibn Majah)
   7. Women will outnumber men......eventually 50:1 (Bukhari, Muslim, & Ahmad)
12. Children will be foul (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
13. Women will conspire (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
    24. People will walk in the marketplace with their thighs exposed
  26. The people of Iraq will receive no food and no money due to oppression by the Romans (Europeans) (Muslim)
  29. The leader of a people will be the worst of them (at-Tirmidhi)
   33. Female singers and musical instruments will become popular (at-Tirmidhi)
  34. When singers become common (Al-Haythami)
  38. People will believe in the stars (Al-Haythami)
    47. There will be attempts to make the deserts green
   49. Women will be naked in spite of being dressed, these women will be led astray & will lead others astray (Muslim)
  50. The conquest of Constantinople by the Muslims (Ahmad)
  51. The conquest of India by the Muslims, just prior to the return of Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon both of them)(Ahmad, an-Nisa'i, at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
  55. Two large groups, adhering to the same religious teaching will fight each other with large numbers of casualties (Bukhari & Muslim)
   68. Men will begin to look like women and women will begin to look like men.

I'm interested in this stuff.  It's interesting to read about what other people believe.  That way if I'm ever in a place where children stink (#12) or women are in a group talking in quiet vioces and giggling (#13) I can sound smart when I point out to someone that these are signs of the end of the world in Islam.

#4... In Saudi Arabia, several members of the royal family have drank alcohol, used drugs, and visited prostitutes.  
#7... WOOHOOO can't wait!
#24... And I don't care who doesn't want to see my pale thighs.
#26... Still waiting for this one as Europe hasn't occupied Iraq in a very long time to my knowledge.
#29... I am not yet the leader of a people, so we got a ways to go on this one.
#33... Are both the singers and musical instruments female here, or is it female singers playing musical instruments?  Joan Baez, Tori Amos, Jewel, Whitney Houston, Aretha Franklin, and one that is a certain sign of the apocalypse: Rihanna.
#34... Ever been to a karaoke bar?
#38... There's a horoscope in the newspaper every day.
#47... In Kuwait and Qatar, the rich neighborhoods have a lot of grass alongside the main roads and other areas.
#49... So you're saying xray glasses or airport scanners?  If it's airport scanners, those pictures are decidedly not sexy and wouldn't lead me astray.
#50... You forgot to highlight this one.  Constantinople is now Istanbul in Turkey, a country that was taken over by Muslims a long time ago.
#51... India is converting to Islam at a very fast pace.
#55... This is happening as well... Shia and Sunni.
#68... This started happening when men wearing dresses was the height of fashion back in the Victorian era.

Quote from: "fester30"I'm interested in this stuff.  It's interesting to read about what other people believe.  That way if I'm ever in a place where children stink (#12) or women are in a group talking in quiet vioces and giggling (#13) I can sound smart when I point out to someone that these are signs of the end of the world in Islam.

#4... In Saudi Arabia, several members of the royal family have drank alcohol, used drugs, and visited prostitutes.  
#7... WOOHOOO can't wait!
#24... And I don't care who doesn't want to see my pale thighs.
#26... Still waiting for this one as Europe hasn't occupied Iraq in a very long time to my knowledge.
#29... I am not yet the leader of a people, so we got a ways to go on this one.
#33... Are both the singers and musical instruments female here, or is it female singers playing musical instruments?  Joan Baez, Tori Amos, Jewel, Whitney Houston, Aretha Franklin, and one that is a certain sign of the apocalypse: Rihanna.
#34... Ever been to a karaoke bar?
#38... There's a horoscope in the newspaper every day.
#47... In Kuwait and Qatar, the rich neighborhoods have a lot of grass alongside the main roads and other areas.
#49... So you're saying xray glasses or airport scanners?  If it's airport scanners, those pictures are decidedly not sexy and wouldn't lead me astray.
#50... You forgot to highlight this one.  Constantinople is now Istanbul in Turkey, a country that was taken over by Muslims a long time ago.
#51... India is converting to Islam at a very fast pace.
#55... This is happening as well... Shia and Sunni.
#68... This started happening when men wearing dresses was the height of fashion back in the Victorian era.

As a theist, the topic doesn't interest me much, I was curious what Islam thought of it, I never really looked into till today.
I believe it will happen, I just don't know when. It may happen tommorow or 1000 years later.
While we are on it, some ofthem are interesting, I'll try to point out a few that were not common during our history.

3. Adultery and fornication will be prevalent (Muhammad said that this has never happened without new diseases befalling the people, which their ancestors had not known.) (Bukhari, Muslim)
5. Adultery and fornication will be performed in the open (This is quite common now, never happened during our history, sexual revolution in the seventies)
9. The nations of the earth will gather against the Muslims like hungry people going to sit down to a table full of food. This will occur when the Muslims are large in number, but "like the foam of the sea".
I guess that during the crusades, the muslims were in trouble, also
14. Rain will be acidic or burning (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim) (Pollution)
24. People will walk in the marketplace with their thighs exposed
25. Great distances will be traversed in short spans of time (Speaks for itself)
26. The people of Iraq will receive no food and no money due to oppression by the Romans (Europeans) (Muslim)
27. People will hop between the clouds and the earth (Airplanes)
37. People will claim to follow the Qur'an but will reject hadith & sunnah (Abu Dawood) (Quran-Only movement recently started)
42. Smog will appear over cities because of the evil that they are doing (Pollution, many cities in Asia)
45. A man will pass by a grave and wish that he was in their place (Bukhari) (depression, 25% here in the Netherlands takes Prozac)
49. Women will be naked in spite of being dressed, these women will be led astray & will lead others astray (Muslim) (Exploitment of women in the west)
52. When people begin to compete with others in the construction of taller buildings (Bukhari) (Speaks for itself)
57. A man will leave his home and his thigh or hip will tell him what is happening back at his home (Ahmad) (Mobile Phone, communication)
62. A woman will enter the workforce out of love for this world (Ahmad) (Emancipation)
68. Men will begin to look like women and women will begin to look like men.  (Current trend)


It's also interesting to point out that currently it's 1432 (Islamic calendar). I once read a book about the crisis among the Muslims during the
year 1000 (Islamic calendar), people then freaked out that the world would come to an end soon. One of the scholars back then examinded the Hadith
about it's signs and concluded that the first signs would appear in the 15th century (Islamic calendar). Currently it's 1432.

Sign of the changing times.   Maybe the end really is in sight for these religious institutions!

Quote from: "xSilverPhinx"Sign of the changing times.   Maybe the end really is in sight for these religious institutions!

I hope so.  The sooner, the better.  Yes?

Quote from: "Stevil"But of course, we knew this all along

I agree...it's not really news.

If I understand my end times schedule properly, this should be good news for those Christians who think the ball is already rolling towards the end of days.

Quote68. Men will begin to look like women and women will begin to look like men. (Current trend)

How scientific.

Don't worry, religion isn't dead. It has just morphed into wacko spirituality with fat Buddhas replacing crucifixes in homes. Also, Islam is on its way to the West. There are no atheists in Muslim countries.

No atheists,
No gays,
No adulterers,
No pedophiles.

www.thereligionofpeace.com (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com)

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"I hope so.  The sooner, the better.  Yes?

The sooner, the better.  

Quote from: "AreEl"Don't worry, religion isn't dead. It has just morphed into wacko spirituality with fat Buddhas replacing crucifixes in homes. Also, Islam is on its way to the West. There are no atheists in Muslim countries.

No atheists,
No gays,
No adulterers,
No pedophiles.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com)

What.

Gotta laugh when theists say the word "fornication"
It's just so weird and backwards to try and put negative connotations onto sex.

this is interesting...

  Those people are nuts

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote68. Men will begin to look like women and women will begin to look like men. (Current trend)

How scientific.

I think it rather means that you cannot differ between men and women sometimes, atleast sometimes I can't.
But then again, you do have a lot of transsexuals nowadays, is that more scientific?

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote68. Men will begin to look like women and women will begin to look like men. (Current trend)

How scientific.

I think it rather means that you cannot differ between men and women sometimes, atleast sometimes I can't.
But then again, you do have a lot of transsexuals nowadays, is that more scientific?

There are no more gays, lesbians, bisexuals or transsexuals that there were in the past. The thing is now that in civilised countries religious bigots (and that is not all religious people) can't harass/imprison/murder them on a whim based on their mythological superstitions.

Read the Ballad of Reading Jail by Oscar Wilde if you get a chance.

Quote from: "Stevil"Gotta laugh when theists say the word "fornication"
It's just so weird and backwards to try and put negative connotations onto sex.

Yeah I always thought it was funny when I was growing up that the preachers and adults tried to convince us that sex was a dirty, filthy, horribly sinful thing, and then told us only to do it with the person we cared about enough to marry.  What a lovely way to treat ones spouse by doing such horrible, filthy, dirty things to her/him?

I think it's logical that pop culture folklore gone haywire would start to fizzle. Hopefully we the future holds headlines like "Memory of the Jersey Shore television show almost completely extinct in 12 countries". It has just taken religion longer because of that whole...origin of life and eternal soul business.  

But in seriousness, I feel pretty good about this, and hope to see it continue. It seems that the relatively recent influx of media attention on fundamentalism (terrorism and whatnot) has lost religions some members.

Quote from: "Tank"There are no more gays, lesbians, bisexuals or transsexuals that there were in the past. The thing is now that in civilised countries religious bigots (and that is not all religious people) can't harass/imprison/murder them on a whim based on their mythological superstitions.

Read the Ballad of Reading Jail by Oscar Wilde if you get a chance.

I know that well Tank, what I meant is that it's now possible for a woman to physical become a man or vice versa.
Civilised countries today invade other countries for the sake of oil and because weapons need to be fired, otherwise their 'civilised' economy will not run.
So instead of running on oil, it's a combination of oil and blood.

Get rid of the illusion that some parts of the world are 'civilised'.
The reason that you can drink, is because in some part of the world someone's blood is running.
(They give you concepts like 'war on terror' or 'islamic terror', so it will make your conscience more at ease: It's how justice works!)

Quote from: "AreEl"Don't worry, religion isn't dead. It has just morphed into wacko spirituality with fat Buddhas replacing crucifixes in homes.

This is an example of the intolerance of Christianity. It's followers show no respect towards other religions. From my atheist perspective Christianity and Bhuddism but seem strange (or wacko) as you term it. I simply choose to show a little more respect onto the religions by not externalising and vocalising that they are wacko, even internalised I would simply say "illogical, contradictory, unessessary, unproven, unfounded concepts". Although it does seem to me that Bhuddism is a much more peacefull and tolerant religion than Christianity.

I have considered putting a Bhudda onto my wall. They really do look quite beautiful and peacefull. A dead man nail to a cross is not really my taste of art decor, the gore and bloodlust of Christianity often amazes me.

Quote from: "Stevil"This is an example of the intolerance of Christianity. It's followers show no respect towards other religions.

Isn't that a prerequisite for a successful religion (successful in its survival), one that spreads aggressively? In evolutionary terms, can a mild and tolerant religion survive in the long run?

Quote from: "AreEl"Don't worry, religion isn't dead. It has just morphed into wacko spirituality with fat Buddhas replacing crucifixes in homes. Also, Islam is on its way to the West. There are no atheists in Muslim countries.

No atheists,
No gays,
No adulterers,
No pedophiles.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com)

AreEl, you probably think that I am only born to kill (I am a crazy muslim terrorist).

I don't see much difference between fat bhudda's or crucifixes. Both are a form of idol worship.
You place an idol in your house, and you kneel for the idol.

This why muslims are not allowed to draw the prophet, because it might lead to idol worship.
And this is pretty common among world religions.

When God sent Bhudda as a messenger, Bhudda is worshipped now.
When God sent people like Krishna or Ram, they are worshiped now in Hinduism. (The Hindu scriptures condemn idolworship, they say there is One God)
When God sent Jesus as a messenger, Jesus is now worshipped on a cross.

Instead of listening to the messenger, people tend to bow down to the messenger instead of the message.


Even we muslims tend to do this. --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqQ9Wc7XvoY

Quote from: "iSok"AreEl, you probably think that I am only born to kill (I am a crazy muslim terrorist).

No. I just think you are promoting - or attempting to explain - your religion. Islam is a cancer in the West and I have seen for myself the degeneration of various European countries as their Muslim population increases.*  This cancer is still small in the USA but will metastasize.

Quote from: "iSok"I don't see much difference between fat bhudda's or crucifixes. Both are a form of idol worship.
You place an idol in your house, and you kneel for the idol.

This why muslims are not allowed to draw the prophet, because it might lead to idol worship.
And this is pretty common among world religions.

When God sent Bhudda as a messenger, Bhudda is worshipped now.
When God sent people like Krishna or Ram, they are worshiped now in Hinduism. (The Hindu scriptures condemn idolworship, they say there is One God)
When God sent Jesus as a messenger, Jesus is now worshipped on a cross.

Actually, you don't know what you are talking about above. Allah never claimed to have sent Buddha or Krishna! Are you Ba'hai or Muslim?! Or are you just mixed up? Maybe you should stick to promoting Islam. It seems to me that I have a better grasp of the Qu'ran than you do.

But the good thing about Muslim societies is that you kill off all undesireable elements. I've got to hand it to you, you guys are efficient!

 

*Quick example: I first visited the Eiffel Tower 14 years ago (I was 40 at the time.)  Back then, I bought my ticket, waited in line, got on the elevator and went up. I usually travel to Europe with my wife but last year we hosted a couple of friends who had never been to Paris and wanted to see the Eiffel Tower. This time, I bought my ticket under the watchful eye of armed military and security personnel. Before I got in line, I had to pass through a metal detector. Then my bags were searched while Security watched. Then I passed through another metal detector. Then some individuals were taken aside and frisked. Then I passed through a third metal detector. All this time in line (one hour), we were watched by machine-gun toting military personnel. Thanks be to Allah and his prophet! (May he rot in hell.)

iSok - are you feeling the Christian love yet?

Quote from: "AreEl"No. I just think you are promoting - or attempting to explain - your religion. Islam is a cancer in the West and I have seen for myself the degeneration of various European countries as their Muslim population increases.*  This cancer is still small in the USA but will metastasize.

Ah, here we go -- one religion demonizing another. Hey, guess what? All religions are cancers. Christianity calling Islam a disease is like one rapist calling another rapist a bad person.

Also, correlation does not imply causation.

Quote*Quick example: I first visited the Eiffel Tower 14 years ago (I was 40 at the time.)  Back then, I bought my ticket, waited in line, got on the elevator and went up. I usually travel to Europe with my wife but last year we hosted a couple of friends who had never been to Paris and wanted to see the Eiffel Tower. This time, I bought my ticket under the watchful eye of armed military and security personnel. Before I got in line, I had to pass through a metal detector. Then my bags were searched while Security watched. Then I passed through another metal detector. Then some individuals were taken aside and frisked. Then I passed through a third metal detector. All this time in line (one hour), we were watched by machine-gun toting military personnel. Thanks be to Allah and his prophet! (May he rot in hell.)

First, anecdotal evidence, and a particularly weak anecdote as well. Second, what's your point?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"First, anecdotal evidence, and a particularly weak anecdote as well. Second, what's your point?

I have a lot more anecdotal evidence. You are unable understand my point.

Quote from: "Stevil"iSok - are you feeling the Christian love yet?

I predict that atheists will side with iSok. Stevil and LegendarySandwich were first; who is next?

Quote from: "AreEl"I predict that atheists will side with iSok. Stevil and LegendarySandwich were first; who is next?

What are you considering his side?  

That crucifixes are idols....ya, I agree with that; very few christians utilize the cross symbol in a manner that doesn't idolize it.  

But there a lot of things iSok says that I don't agree with.

Quote from: "AreEl"I predict that atheists will side with iSok. Stevil and LegendarySandwich were first; who is next?

A prediction after the event, very nice.

Actually it is not about sides. I just happen to think you are represting the ugly side of Christianity.
If you focus more on love and tolerance and attempt to be non judgemental then you might be a much better ambassador for your own religion and chosen god.
If you have issues with Islam and Muslims then iSok is here with us on this forum and he is generally open to questions, so if you play nice and don't make these public attacks maybe you could learn something.

BTW The Christians have been guilty of mass killing too you know, Inquisitions, witch hunts, The great flood (if you believe this is true), the she bears maulling the cute little children, lets not mention Sodom and the persecution of homosexuals.
Basically the lesson would be, he who lives in a glass house should not through stones.
Or as your beloved bible puts it, judge not least ye be judged.

You become a much better person in life if you look for opportunities to learn rather than opportunities to insult and abuse.

 :D

it's always been this way...nothing new

Quote from: "Stevil"Actually it is not about sides. I just happen to think you are represting the ugly side of Christianity.
If you focus more on love and tolerance and attempt to be non judgemental then you might be a much better ambassador for your own religion and chosen god.
If you have issues with Islam and Muslims then iSok is here with us on this forum and he is generally open to questions, so if you play nice and don't make these public attacks maybe you could learn something.

You seem to be describing aspects of Buddhism. God does not command me to tolerate and be non-jugemental towards the lie that is Islam. Actually, I am to denounce all idolatries with vigor. As for love, you do have a point. Sometimes I lack tact.

Quote from: "Whitney"What are you considering his side?

Coming to his defense after my hard and unsympathetic post about Islam.

Quote from: "AreEl"Coming to his defense after my hard and unsympathetic post about Islam.

Disagreeing with you isn't the same as siding with iSok...it's not like they suddenly all became followers of Islam.

Quote from: "AreEl"

Quote from: "Stevil"Actually it is not about sides. I just happen to think you are represting the ugly side of Christianity.
If you focus more on love and tolerance and attempt to be non judgemental then you might be a much better ambassador for your own religion and chosen god.
If you have issues with Islam and Muslims then iSok is here with us on this forum and he is generally open to questions, so if you play nice and don't make these public attacks maybe you could learn something.

You seem to be describing aspects of Buddhism. God does not command me to tolerate and be non-jugemental towards the lie that is Islam. Actually, I am to denounce all idolatries with vigor. As for love, you do have a point. Sometimes I lack tact.

Quote from: "Whitney"What are you considering his side?

Coming to his defense after my hard and unsympathetic post about Islam.

AreEl, maybe I was too harsh with my reply with crucifixes or "fat bhudda's".
I'm not of the Ba'hai faith, I'm a muslim following Imam Hanafi's teachings of Islam (diversity is what makes us human beings).
About messengers in other religions. This is what the Qur'an has to say about it. I'll quote a few verses:

Qur'an [35:24]- "We have sent you with the Truth to proclaim good news and to warn. Never has there been a nation but a warner came to it."
Qur'an [15:10]- "(O Muhammad), certainly We did send Messengers before you among the nations which have gone by."


I think it would be only fair if a God would exist, he would sent messengers to different nations.
It's true that in the Qur'an people like Krishna are not mentioned.
But let me explain.

I don't know whether you have read the Vedas (Hindu scripture). Their scripture says: God is One and His name is Vishnu.
They happen to believe in different incarnation of God, who visit the Earth each time to settle things right. (Bhudda, Krishna, Ram, Brahma..etc..)
So this leads to worshipping almost everything, some people get baby's with 3 arms and immediatly the baby is seen as a reincarnation, so they build a temple.
Over time, this lead to a couple of thosand of God's...

Brahma is one of their most important incarnation of God. Brahma's wife is Saraswati (The Goddess of fertility).
Now, what amazes me is this:

Abraham - Brahma  
Sara       - Saraswati

As you can see, the names are almost the same.
To add, that Saraswati is the Goddess of fertility. (We both know that Sara gave childbirth on a very late age).
Can this all be a coincidence? I don't think so......

Another factor is the Golden Rule among world religions. It's the central point of each religion.
I'll give a few examples:

Bhuddism:

- Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill.

Christianity:

-Do to no one what you yourself dislike.

Confucianism:

-Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself.

Hinduism:

- One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behavior is due to selfish desires.

Islam:

-None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.

You might ask yourself, why I believe in the 'lie' of Islam?

It's because in Islam, I see the Oneness of God and the Oneness of man.

Judaism for example differ between men. Born jews and those that converted are different. (The Qur'an blames them for this)
Christianity on the other hand is worshipping a man in my opinion, you may not think so, I understand.

A picture like this, says more than a thousand words:
(We don't worship the Ka'ba, it's only a symbol of the Oneness of man, that we are equal before God, some muslims tend to kiss it, but that is a form of idol-worship)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finfohit.nl%2Fmulticul%2Fkaaba1.jpg&hash=a5c2c46e07998fb351e8caff11dd49ab11a04602)

QuoteA picture like this, says more than a thousand words:

It says that nowadays muslims pilgrimage to and pray around the same meteorite (probably) as pre-islamic Arabs used to do for their High God (Allah) among other 360 idols.  

Quote from: "DirtyLeo"

QuoteA picture like this, says more than a thousand words:

It says that nowadays muslims pilgrimage to and pray around the same meteorite (probably) as pre-islamic Arabs used to do for their High God (Allah) among other 360 idols.  

The "fairytale" goes like this DL.

All three Abrahamic religions agree on the following:

Abraham had two sons: Isaac and Ishmael.
Isaac is considered as the ancestor of the Jews.
Ishmael is considered as the ancestor of the Arabs.
(Judaism, Christianity and Islam agree on this)

I am not sure if the two other religions agree on the following:

Ishmael and his father built the Ka'ba (the place was marked with a meteorite).
The Jews also visited the Ka'ba, and they encirceled the Ka'ba seven times. (we Muslims still do this).
While the population among the Ka'ba was growing, some Arabs were forced to migrate to other places.

While migrating, they took stones from the Ka'ba as a remembrance of God while they were away from the Ka'Ba, they'd come back once a year. (Idol-worshipping started here)
The Arabs that left, came in touch with other pagan tribes (idol-worshippers). After some time, the Arabs started worshipping their stones (taken from the Ka'Ba) too.
These Arabs thought that these stones would help them to communicate with God, some type of intermediairs.

Eventually these stones were brought back to the Ka'Ba and were placed there.
The Arab merchants back then, were okay with this, it meant a lucrative business for them. Pagan tribes would come to the Ka'Ba to worship God by worshipping multiple God's, most of them were
wealthy merchants and because of this the Arab economy around the Ka'Ba was booming.
The Jews could not accep this, and they did not visit the Ka'Ba any longer.

During this, there was a small group of people that did not accept this.
They always believed in One God, and found the whole concept of idol-worship wrong.
Centuries after Muhammad (pbuh) was one of these people, he always believed in One God.

So when he started his Prophethood, most Arabs were against his message, because it meant the end of their wealthy life.
Pagan tribes would no longer visit, idol-worship would be no longer tolerated. So in the end the Prophet removed the 360 idols that were placed within the Ka'Ba.
And restored the Oneness of God.

'Allah' means in Arabic: "The One God"

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "DirtyLeo"

QuoteA picture like this, says more than a thousand words:

It says that nowadays muslims pilgrimage to and pray around the same meteorite (probably) as pre-islamic Arabs used to do for their High God (Allah) among other 360 idols.  

The "fairytale" goes like this DL.

All three Abrahamic religions agree on the following:

Abraham had two sons: Isaac and Ishmael.
Isaac is considered as the ancestor of the Jews.
Ishmael is considered as the ancestor of the Arabs.
(Judaism, Christianity and Islam agree on this)

I am not sure if the two other religions agree on the following:

Ishmael and his father built the Ka'ba (the place was marked with a meteorite).
The Jews also visited the Ka'ba, and they encirceled the Ka'ba seven times. (we Muslims still do this).
While the population among the Ka'ba was growing, some Arabs were forced to migrate to other places.

While migrating, they took stones from the Ka'ba as a remembrance of God while they were away from the Ka'Ba, they'd come back once a year. (Idol-worshipping started here)
The Arabs that left, came in touch with other pagan tribes (idol-worshippers). After some time, the Arabs started worshipping their stones (taken from the Ka'Ba) too.
These Arabs thought that these stones would help them to communicate with God, some type of intermediairs.

Eventually these stones were brought back to the Ka'Ba and were placed there.
The Arab merchants back then, were okay with this, it meant a lucrative business for them. Pagan tribes would come to the Ka'Ba to worship God by worshipping multiple God's, most of them were
wealthy merchants and because of this the Arab economy around the Ka'Ba was booming.
The Jews could not accep this, and they did not visit the Ka'Ba any longer.

During this, there was a small group of people that did not accept this.
They always believed in One God, and found the whole concept of idol-worship wrong.
Centuries after Muhammad (pbuh) was one of these people, he always believed in One God.

So when he started his Prophethood, most Arabs were against his message, because it meant the end of their wealthy life.
Pagan tribes would no longer visit, idol-worship would be no longer tolerated. So in the end the Prophet removed the 360 idols that were placed within the Ka'Ba.
And restored the Oneness of God.

'Allah' means in Arabic: "The One God"

So, to my point, muslims pilgrimage to the same place the idol-worshipping Arabs used to pilgrimage before Islam. It was very convenient that Muhammad's new religion didn't upset the trade in the area by making this pilgrimage one of the pillars of his religion. And certainly, Muhammad himself was an idol-worshipper before Islam because his tribe took the control of Kaba before his birth. They even displaced it.

That doesn't change the study that suggests religion is going extinct in 9 countries.

Whitney, can you split off the posts about Euthanasia into a new thread? I think we can get a good debate going here.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Whitney, can you split off the posts about Euthanasia into a new thread? I think we can get a good debate going here.

yes, I just took a brief break from working to check the forum...remind me if it isn't split by tomorrow.

Euthanasia derail moved to: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7233 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7233)