Happy Atheist Forum

So the old testament god was one of wrath and punishment for sins.  The new testament is supposed to be a kinder, gentler god who only punishes after death.

My cousin died recently.  Her dad, my uncle, is falling to pieces over it.  Not just because he lost his daughter, but because he blames himself.  He had a couple drinks with her a week before her death.  He believes (seventh day adventist) that drinking alcohol is a sin and is weak.  He believes her death was god's punishment upon him for drinking.

I point out that she's the one who died, so wouldn't that mean she was the one who was punished?  That didn't help, because it got him thinking that maybe she's in hell now.  Oops.

I point out that I drink and swear and look at internet porn, yet my wife is still living.  God has not yet seen fit to punish me for my transgressions.  This doesn't work either.

Apparently he believes that since he's a believer, when he strays from the path, god will punish him.  However, unbelievers can go unpunished in this life and even be quite happy and successful.  I just don't understand why some believers think that punishment on earth is something god reserves just for those who love him.  I also can't figure out a way to get through to my uncle.  Nobody can.  It's really a shame because he's such a nice guy.  Of course, he doesn't value what I say as much as he used to when I believed in god.  There's an element of distrust there, as I must be the serpent sent to lead them astray.

A question for you Fester.

Suppose God exists, does He have a character?
Do the Bible or the Qur'an describe God?

Quote from: "iSok"Suppose God exists, does He have a character?

I take the liberty to present my take on these questions.

Even if we suppose a god exists, the question of such a being having character can only be answered in a speculative manner. A worthless speculation, at that.

QuoteDo the Bible or the Qur'an describe God?

Probably not. (If you were asking "which one", the answer is probably neither)

Yes, I'm still working with the supposition that there are such things as gods. The thing is... For people to have accurately described such a being WAY before anything even resembling the Scientific Method... Well, it's very unlikely.

I can't speak for the Qur'an, as I have not read it.  The Bible has several different descriptions of the character or personality of God.  He's jealous, wrathful, merciful, and caring, among other traits.  His personality is different in various parts of the Bible.  He seems to change from violent to forgiving as the story goes along.  My concern is that my uncle won't stop blaming himself, and it's a shame.  Perhaps he'd find a reason to blame himself if he wasn't religious, but religion is giving him a convenient place to look.

 :)

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "iSok"Suppose God exists, does He have a character?

I take the liberty to present my take on these questions.

Even if we suppose a god exists, the question of such a being having character can only be answered in a speculative manner. A worthless speculation, at that.

QuoteDo the Bible or the Qur'an describe God?

Probably not. (If you were asking "which one", the answer is probably neither)

Yes, I'm still working with the supposition that there are such things as gods. The thing is... For people to have accurately described such a being WAY before anything even resembling the Scientific Method... Well, it's very unlikely.

okay, so the Quran nor the Bible describe God.

My next question: Is man a being of reason and logic or emotion?



@Fester, tell your uncle that death has been appointed for each soul before it's birth.
It's a part of destiny, no matter our actions.

Qur'an - [ 16:61 ] -  "Were Allah to take people to task for their wrong-doing, He would not have spared even a single living creature on the face of the earth. But He grants them respite until an appointed term. And when that term arrives, they have no power to delay it by a single moment, nor to hasten it."

Quote from: "iSok"My next question: Is man a being of reason and logic or emotion?

Depends on the personality of the man in question. Some are more emotional, while others are ice-cold.

The vast majority are a combination of the two, but what people base the "judgement calls" on, be it logic and reason or feeling and intuition, varies.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "iSok"My next question: Is man a being of reason and logic or emotion?

Depends on the personality of the man in question. Some are more emotional, while others are ice-cold.

The vast majority are a combination of the two, but what people base the "judgement calls" on, be it logic and reason or feeling and intuition, varies.

Okay, so it's combination of emotion and reason. Is it 50-50 or are one of the two more represented?
(I'm talking about the common man)

Quote from: "iSok"Okay, so it's combination of emotion and reason. Is it 50-50 or are one of the two more represented?
(I'm talking about the common man)

I can only speculate to the percentage for the average guy, and I suppose that would also depend on the cultural area and the close environment while growing up, but I suppose the percentages go both ways.

In my near circles, the majority lean towards rationality in most important decisions. The margins vary - some are as close to robots as I have seen, while others are far less predictable, approaching something like 50/50. Whether that holds true for my country or continent or the Earth as a whole, I do not know.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "iSok"Okay, so it's combination of emotion and reason. Is it 50-50 or are one of the two more represented?
(I'm talking about the common man)

I can only speculate to the percentage for the average guy, and I suppose that would also depend on the cultural area and the close environment while growing up, but I suppose the percentages go both ways.

In my near circles, the majority lean towards rationality in most important decisions. The margins vary - some are as close to robots as I have seen, while others are far less predictable, approaching something like 50/50. Whether that holds true for my country or continent or the Earth as a whole, I do not know.

By way of experiment.
Suppose I randomly pick 400 people and put them in an airplane.
And once in the sky I'll let the plane stall.

How many of it's passengers will be ice-cold and say: "Statistically I have less than 1% to survive but let's wait and enjoy the sight, could be my last moments."?

Quote from: "iSok"How many of it's passengers will be ice-cold and say: "Statistically I have less than 1% to survive but let's wait and enjoy the sight, could be my last moments."?

Hard to say. There are too many variables in play, like conversion disorder. People in a flock and a person alone are two very different things. If you had 400 planes with one person on board each one, then the experiment would have some value. I can still only speculate in terms of actual numeric statistics.

Are we getting anywhere near the point? Pick whatever toots your horn and take it to where ever you were going, will you?   I'll refute it later if I percieve it as obviously incorrect.

Quote from: "iSok"Okay, so it's combination of emotion and reason. Is it 50-50 or are one of the two more represented?
(I'm talking about the common man)

I suspect there are a lot of decisions made due to emotion that the owners busily brace with reason.  The question of proportion is hard to answer.  What if emotions are influenced by a sense of fair play and I see fair play as a reasonable thing?

Just to clarify my last answer with a small example of someone I know well, namely me.

Now, I am NOT a panic prone person, as one near-drowning and a few MVCs can show. Suppose I am in an aluminium tube with wings along with 500 people. The engines blow out. Do I panic? I have no idea. It is quite possible that I do, depending on the actions of people around me.

Suppose I am alone.  on the plane. Do I panic? Most likely, no. I'd probably try to offer what assistance I can give to whoever operates the plane in order to try and prevent my own very tragic demise.

Again, it's speculative, since I have never been on a crashing plane, so the comment is meant to illustrate the potential ocean of difference between a person acting alone or people acting as a flock. Oh, I'd most likely be scared shitless, but feeling something and making decisions/acting on that feeling are two different things. Some people are good at overriding instincts and disregarding their feelings at need, others are not.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "iSok"How many of it's passengers will be ice-cold and say: "Statistically I have less than 1% to survive but let's wait and enjoy the sight, could be my last moments."?

Hard to say. There are too many variables in play, like conversion disorder. People in a flock and a person alone are two very different things. If you had 400 planes with one person on board each one, then the experiment would have some value. I can still only speculate in terms of actual numeric statistics.

Are we getting anywhere near the point? Pick whatever toots your horn and take it to where ever you were going, will you?  ;)

Quote from: "iSok"In a plane, in a realistic scenario. Only a robot would think that way, you can't call yourself a human anymore.

Your example of the exact thought was all wrong though. What a single person might have thought would more likely be "OH SHIIIIIT!!!" and then, some (and it's the percentage of those, that is in question) would think "Ok... A way to land this bucket safely... *self-preservation measures*"

QuoteAsmodean, I know you won't like my reply. I just showed you that we are beings of emotion.

No. You demonstrated that we do feel, the fact I never disputed. You have not shown that emotion is what guides our judgement when it matters in a majority of cases.

QuoteYou showed that yourself, your ego stood in the way to admit that emotion is a far powerful aspect in the human mind than logic and reason.
Majority of us will never admit that we are wrong, because our ego stands in the way.

My ego..? what does it have to do with anything. MY point is FAR from lost since until newly, I did not know where you were going, I have NOT presented any absolute truths on the subject, more or less just answering questions with "I think...", and what you managed to conjure up was a demonstration of a totally different matter. (not being able not to act on emotion for the majority is not demonstrated)

If you prove me wrong, I will admit it. Although in this case, it may be a bit hard since I did not put forth any proposition except that humans combine rationality and emotion and that my limited sample of people I know well leans towards the first.

QuoteYour 'belief' may be based on logic and reason, but as soon as something is a threat, emotion kicks in and that shows your bond to your way of life.
We all have this problem Asmodean, admitting it, is based on logic and reason.

People respond to threats in three ways: Fight, flight, ignoring. The first two are instinctive. But there is a difference between feeling threatened and possibly being angered or scared by it, and acting on those emotions. Your instincts may, for instance, say "Run", and yet you have more to gain by fighting. That there would be a rational choice.

Quote from: "Asmodean"No. You demonstrated that we do feel, the fact I never disputed. You have not shown that emotion is what guides our judgement when it matters in a majority of cases.

400 atheists in an airplane, plane stalls. Will all 400 refuse a desperate plea to God?

I am going to the point that I want to make clear that:

1) God can not be described.
2) Man is more a being of emotion then of reason and logic.
3) The Quran, the Bible and other religious scriptures have one thing in common, FEAR.
4) Concept of threatening man is simple yet brilliant --> works well for the common man.
5) If scriptures were full of passages of love and mercy and reason, common man would not listen.
6) This does not mean that God wants to torture us all.

If God really liked torturing us, then He would not warn us.

Qur'an - [15:89] - "and clearly tell the unbelievers: "I am most certainly a plain warner."

This plane scenario isn't going anywhere unless I use my godless cunning to find the only parachute and somehow get the door open.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru)

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"This plane scenario isn't going anywhere unless I use my godless cunning to find the only parachute and somehow get the door open.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru)

You forget that the 399 others also possess godless cunning.

Quote from: "iSok"400 atheists in an airplane, plane stalls. Will all 400 refuse a desperate plea to God?

400 who never believed in a god probably would never even think of pleading to such a being. 400 who converted to atheism from a religion... Who knows. They'd go both ways, I think.

Quote1) God can not be described.

..! We are getting to the point, yes?  

Ok. Let's say you're right.

Quote2) Man is more a being of emotion then of reason and logic.

Let's just for the fun of it disregard the problems I have with that claim and say ok here too, shall we...

Quote3) The Quran, the Bible and other religious scriptures have one thing in common, FEAR.

...And hope. That's two things, yes?

Quote4) Concept of threatening man is simple yet brilliant --> works well for the common man.

Agreed with prejudice. The outcome will not always be what you expect.

Quote5) If scriptures were full of passages of love and mercy and reason, common man would not listen.

Agreed with prejudice.

Quote6) This does not mean that God wants to torture us all.

That there is the point, yes? That god appeals to basic instincts in order to get people to believe in it? How do you know that a being which can not be described would even want to do that, for starters?

QuoteIf God really liked torturing us, then He would not warn us.

How do you know that? I would probably warn my torture victim to be of his impending doom and let him stew if there was no authority to reel me in.

QuoteQur'an - [15:89] - "and clearly tell the unbelievers: "I am most certainly a plain warner."

...Who wrote that line?

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "iSok"]If God really liked torturing us, then He would not warn us.

How do you know that? I would probably warn my torture victim to be of his impending doom and let him stew if there was no authority to reel me in.

Normal procedure is to let the prospective victim to hear the screams of the current victim.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Normal procedure is to let the prospective victim to hear the screams of the current victim.

Precisely.

Quote from: "Asmodean"That there is the point, yes? That god appeals to basic instincts in order to get people to believe in it? How do you know that a being which can not be described would even want to do that, for starters?
How do you know that? I would probably warn my torture victim to be of his impending doom and let him stew if there was no authority to reel me in.
...Who wrote that line?

When Islam found it's way, it was not hope that lead people into belief, but fear.
People actually rejected the message, they didn't want to face their action, so hope did not play a part.
Hope now for many believers can be a second aspect, I agree.
But without the fundamental aspect of fear, majority of people will not believe; 'Ah..God will forgive us all if he's there.'

We can only trust that God will not torture us.
I think Evil takes and Good gives.
Last line is from the Qur'an, God adressing the Prophet that he shouldn't worry about people's believe, but he should regard himself as a warner.

Quote from: "iSok"When Islam found it's way, it was not hope that lead people into belief, but fear.

I don't think that's accurate at all. Fear got them to listen. Hope got them to obey - and that IS oversimplifying the matter, but it's a relatively close rendition. It still works today, but those pulling the hope and fear strings are people, not gods.

QuotePeople actually rejected the message, they didn't want to face their action, so hope did not play a part.

Those who feared, probably obeyed in hope of avoiding the realization of those fears

QuoteHope now for many believers can be a second aspect, I agree.

One of the cornerstones of religion, more like it.

QuoteBut without the fundamental aspect of fear, majority of people will not believe; 'Ah..God will forgive us all if he's there.'

Oh, they might have believed, but they would not obey. And that brings us to the point of whether or not Allah the Tyrant is worthy of obedience.

QuoteWe can only trust that God will not torture us.

There are alternatives. One is not caring, the other is fighting back. There are probably others; took two examples from the top of my head.

QuoteI think Evil takes and Good gives.

Of course, most things both give AND take... A disease, for instance, can give you blisters. And yet you die from it. Is that disease then good for giving blisters or evil for taking your life? I see where you are going, I think, but giving and taking are as much twoi sides of the same coin as good and evil and the way the coin lands is highly subjective to the individual.

QuoteLast line is from the Qur'an, God adressing the Prophet that he shouldn't worry about people's believe, but he should regard himself as a warner.

Uh-huh. And we should not simply disregard the warnings as insubstantial and quite possibly not of the claimed source because..?

Quote from: "Asmodean"I don't think that's accurate at all. Fear got them to listen. Hope got them to obey - and that IS oversimplifying the matter, but it's a relatively close rendition. It still works today, but those pulling the hope and fear strings are people, not gods.

Why does man have hope?
Nonetheless, you draw a line between hope in an afterlife and fear of punishment. That is wrong, there is no connection.
There is however a connection  between hope in avoiding punishment that is caused by fear of punishment.
The fear of punishment was first established and lead to hope in avoiding it.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Oh, they might have believed, but they would not obey. And that brings us to the point of whether or not God is worthy of obedience.

Believe in God --> fear of punishment --> reflecting on your actions --> improving your character.
The fear of punishment would not be established if scriptures did not contain passages of punishment.
Pre-Islamic arabs buried their daughters alive after they were born. They abolished this tradition, because of the chain of thoughts as described above.

This is how weak man is, like a child.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Uh-huh. And we should not simply disregard the warnings as insubstantial and quite possibly not of the claimed source because..?

Because evolution is the answer, we are simply going to enjoy life and then die, no matter the odds.
You took the interpretation of the absolute, as the absolute. Everything beyond your perception does not exist.
Is that a prison or freedom?

Do you know why modern world has rejected God?

Quote from: "iSok"Nonetheless, you draw a line between hope in an afterlife and fear of punishment. That is wrong, there is no connection.

No, I'm saying that hope of escaping the punishment is what gets the sheep to obey the master.

QuoteThere is however a connection  between hope in avoiding punishment that is caused by fear of punishment.

...In other words, this right here. Afterlife does contribute with a fair share of hope, but that IS a different matter. Fear of punishment and hope of avoiding it are, however, the same sides of the abovementioned coin (Afterlife follows exactly the same pattern, actually)

QuoteThe fear of punishment was first established and lead to hope in avoiding it.

Chicken came before the egg, yes?  

They are two sides of the same coin. A fertilized chicken egg is STILL a chicken, only in its embryonic stage. Without one, the other is meaningless. Remove hope and you will have blind panic, accomplishing nothing at all (If that's the point, then your god is not doing too good a job of it). Remove fear, and you kick the ladder from under this particular hope's feet.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Believe in God --> fear of punishment --> reflecting on your actions --> improving your character.

--> Suicide belt --> Game over.

Your line of thought is flawed. Why would fear of punishment lead to improvement of character rather than to looking for holes in the letter of the law? People who ARE "good" tend to be that regardless of the punishments involved in being bad. Peoplke who are less good, however, will be less good regardless of the punishment.

QuotePre-Islamic arabs buried their daughters alive after they were born. They abolished this tradition, because of the chain of thoughts as described above.

Am I to assume you are against burying daughters alive..? Why is that bad then? Because to me, the defensibility of such an action does not have anything to do with punishment for it.

QuoteBecause evolution is the answer, we are simply going to enjoy life and then die, no matter the odds.

Enjoying life is subjective. Not everyone does. Evolution is not the answer - it is a process. An explanation, if you are refering to the Theory of Evolution, but the explanation part lies in the word "theory"

Side comment to one of the aboveraised points.

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm)

If the people in that vid and others like them are doing it wrong, then Allah failed in explaining to them how to do it right. Because they most likely genuinely believe they are following its will.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Chicken came before the egg, yes?  

If the concept of the afterlife would appeal to the early followers, they would not reject the message.
So after they were convinced of the truth, they feared the punishment after that hope followed by avoiding punishment by improving your character.

As you say it, and I agree, that is how it works.

No, I'm saying that hope of escaping the punishment is what gets the sheep to obey the master.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Your line of thought is flawed. Why would fear of punishment lead to improvement of character rather than to looking for holes in the letter of the law? People who ARE "good" tend to be that regardless of the punishments involved in being bad. Peoplke who are less good, however, will be less good regardless of the punishment.

Let's stay at the example of Pre-Islamic Arabs. I stay at my point of view that fear of punishment leads to improvement of character.
If you disagree, then what other factor played a role when the Arabs abolished this tradition?

Quote from: "Asmodean"Am I to assume you are against burying daughters alive..? Why is that bad then? Because to me, the defensibility of such an action does not have anything to do with punishment for it.

I don't  think whether in our reality there is an absolute of good or evil. I consider God as the infinite of Good, and His guidance as coming as close as possible to the infinite of Good in our reality.
Burying your daughter alive because she's a woman goes against His guidance (Not just scriptural guidance).

Quote from: "Asmodean"Enjoying life is subjective. Not everyone does. Evolution is not the answer - it is a process. An explanation, if you are refering to the Theory of Evolution, but the explanation part lies in the word "theory"

You see evolution as the explanation in the absence of God. This is your answer, your view of life. Leading to rejecting God because evolution provides a good explanation.

Quote from: "iSok"I don't  think whether in our reality there is an absolute of good or evil. I consider God as the infinite of Good, and His guidance as coming as close as possible to the infinite of Good in our reality.
Burying your daughter alive because she's a woman goes against His guidance (Not just scriptural guidance).

I will get back to the rest later. Going home from work in a few.

As for the quoted point, a question? If god was cool with it, would you do it? Because I would not, and I'm a morally bankrupt atheist with no fear of god to stop me.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "iSok"I don't  think whether in our reality there is an absolute of good or evil. I consider God as the infinite of Good, and His guidance as coming as close as possible to the infinite of Good in our reality.
Burying your daughter alive because she's a woman goes against His guidance (Not just scriptural guidance).

I will get back to the rest later. Going home from work in a few.

As for the quoted point, a question? If god was cool with it, would you do it? Because I would not, and I'm a morally bankrupt atheist with no fear of god to stop me.

The morals without scriptures that I have Asmodean before I became religious, I see them as a favour of God, His guidance. Some people can sleep after
they have massmurdered thousands, I can't, I am lucky that I can't.

About your link, I think the topic is quite controversial, especially in our western society.
But one thing is sure, Islam is against any form of sexual relationship outside marriage.
It says that marriage is sacred and the bond between a man and woman should be healthy and one and other
should find tranquility in eachother to get rid of nature's desires.

Why? Because if we see it here in our society. Adultery causes more problems than it fixes.
Most single parents are women, left behind by their husbands for no reason. (Look at the divorce rates here, caused most of the time by adultery)
I might be wrong, but it seems that people here in the west tend to see themselves as important, since life is short and should be enjoyed.
Why be in a relationship that is no fun? This is the picture that the media sketches here and people often follow it.
Compare the crime rates of Saudi-Arabia or Oman with the U.S.A....you'll be surprised, If children do not grow up in an healthy environment, there will be rage.

As for stoning, the prophet (pbuh) wasn't really fond of stoning.
A man came and asked the prophet for his punishment, as you can see he did everything to avoid the punishment.

I have committed adultery, please purify me." (In another report, Prophet Muhammad asked Ma'iz that the reports he heard about him are correct or not[6]) prophet Muhammad turned his face away from him and said "Woe to you, go back and pray to Allah for forgiveness." But the man again came in front of prophet Muhammad and repeated his desire for purification. The act was repeated three times, until Abu Bakr, sitting close by, told the Ma'iz to leave, as the fourth repetition of the plea would get him stoned. But the man persisted.Prophet Muhammad then turned to him and said "you might have kissed or caressed her or you might have looked at her with lust (and so assumed that you committed Zéna)". Ma'iz replied in the negative. Allah's Apostle said "did you lie in bed with her?" Ma'iz replied in the affirmative. He then asked, "did you have sexual intercourse?" Ma'iz replied in the affirmative. Then Prophet Muhammad got quite uncomfortable, and asked "Did your male organ disappear in the female part?" Ma'iz replied in the affirmative. He then asked, once more, whether Ma'iz knew what Zéna means. Ma'iz replied "yes, I have committed the same act a husband commits with his wife." Prophet Muhammad asked if he was married, and he replied "yes".Prophet Muhammad asked if he took any wine, and Ma'iz again replied in the negative. Prophet Muhammad then sent for an inquiry from the neighbors of Ma'iz, whether or not Ma'iz suffered from insanity. The replies all came in the negative. Prophet Muhammad then said, "had you kept it a secret, it would have been better for you." Prophet Muhammad then ordered Ma'iz to be stoned to death. During the stoning, Ma'iz cried out, "O people, take me back to the Holy Prophet, the people of my clan deluded me." When this was reported to Prophet Muhammad, he replied "Why did you not let him off, he might have repented, and Allah may have accepted it."


Stoning itself is a punishment described in the Torah, not in the Qur'an.

The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."

Who brought the man to the prophet? A Jew, that follows the Torah. If the prophet did not give this order according to the Mosaic law, the Jewish community would riot in his time.
The Jewish community voluntarily applied the Mosaic laws on themselves and did not accept the teachings of the Qur'an.

Stoning however is still applied in some countries, the Qur'an clearly does not support this. But in general, society has accepted this (in recent years more and more countries are abolishing it.)
Asmodean, I remember now why I left this forum a few weeks ago.
Being here is a full-time job.

Quote from: "iSok"Islam is against any form of sexual relationship outside marriage.
It says that marriage is sacred and the bond between a man and woman should be healthy and one and other
should find tranquility in eachother to get rid of nature's desires.

Desires are to be embraced not got rid of. I desire my wife and I am certainly not ashamed to admit it and if anyone tries to tell me that my desires are a sin then they can just go away and have a nice little chat to their imaginary god instead. Without sexual desires we would see the end of the human race.

The thing I struggle to understand is how do two people meet and fall in love if they are not allowed to spend time together alone? In some "Muslim" countries the woman's face even remains hidden until after they are married. It seems there is much more of a sexual focus (be it avoidance of sexual desires) than in non "Muslim" countries. I find it appauling to simply treat woman as if they are sexual objects and hence hide them away from society. Women need to be treated first and foremost as people. If you have sexual desires for their image and you think that is a problem, then that is your problem, don't make it their problem. IT IS NATURAL TO DESIRE A POTENTIAL PARTNER.
Once a relationship starts, especially in the early times, lust does play a part, it brings people much closer, they break personal barriers and they desire touch. I don't agree with the whole celibacy thing before marriage, I feel it causes young people to marry before they are ready, it causes them to marry simply because they lust for sex. (IMHO). I have seen many young Christian couple getting married very young.

I married out of love. The wife and I had been living together for three years, most of that as a couple, as lovers (shock, horror). We had the whole lust thing behind us, we knew we were compatible with regards to living together and putting up with each others crap. I am certainly going to recommend to my daughters to live with their partners for a while before considering marriage. Which way they go will be their choice though, I am not going to be pushy.

Quote from: "iSok"Look at the divorce rates here, caused most of the time by adultery

Adultery is not a cause but generally a symptom (IMHO). People stray for three reasons:
1. They have strong desires to have sex with new partners
2. They fall in love with someone else
3. They are having relationship problems with their partner

Unfortunately many religions only see black and white in the world.
The world is much more complex.
If 1. is your thing then you could discuss with your partner. Some people have open relationships, some people have arrangements that they know their partners will stray but tell each other not to let each other know when it happens
If 2. is your thing then this can be difficult. Being in love with two people at the same time. I am sure the new relationship seems a little more exciting than the old one. This may stem from 3. but may not. Certainly decisions should be made one way or another rather than having a hidden affair.
If 3. then it might be good that the partner finds out about the affair and then breaks the relationship. People get too comfortable in a relationship and often are resistant to change. If you have fallen out of love with your partner then either try and fix it or move on. An affair is one way to break the relationship.

If children are involved then things get much more complicated.

Quote from: "iSok"400 atheists in an airplane, plane stalls. Will all 400 refuse a desperate plea to God?

I am going to the point that I want to make clear that:

1) God can not be described.

God is a man made concept. A mythilogical focus point for people to associate with and want to please. A tool to control people and to get their behaviours aligned with the way the authors, editors, commissionor's want.

Quote from: "iSok"2) Man is more a being of emotion then of reason and logic.

Our decisions and actions are often driven by our physical being, there is no abstract soul and objective morality outside of this physicality.

Quote from: "iSok"3) The Quran, the Bible and other religious scriptures have one thing in common, FEAR.

The authors realised that without sufficient buy-in e.g. consequences, people would not take on board the moralities being prescribed

Quote from: "iSok"4) Concept of threatening man is simple yet brilliant --> works well for the common man.

This concept has been around long before religion. I think actual brilliance is the ability to influence without threats, to lead by example and to have people want to follow, to lookup to and admire one's leadership. With this in mind, the Gods as described in the Bible and the Qur'an both fail.

Quote from: "iSok"5) If scriptures were full of passages of love and mercy and reason, common man would not listen.

I know next to nothing about the Qu'ran, and I know only a little of the bible, but from what I gather the bible does not show much examples of love at all other than the rediculous assertion that "God is love", yet it is full of death, torture, unrelenting subservience, cruel tests, examples of how one should unquestionly obey and behave.

Quote from: "iSok"6) This does not mean that God wants to torture us all.

God is a man made concept, God has no wants. God does not exist.

Quote from: "iSok"If God really liked torturing us, then He would not warn us.

God does not have a penis, god is not a he.

Quote from: "iSok"Qur'an - [15:89] - "and clearly tell the unbelievers: "I am most certainly a plain warner."

Warning heard, warning ignored.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "iSok"Suppose God exists, does He have a character?

I take the liberty to present my take on these questions.

Even if we suppose a god exists, the question of such a being having character can only be answered in a speculative manner. A worthless speculation, at that.

QuoteDo the Bible or the Qur'an describe God?

Probably not. (If you were asking "which one", the answer is probably neither)

Yes, I'm still working with the supposition that there are such things as gods. The thing is... For people to have accurately described such a being WAY before anything even resembling the Scientific Method... Well, it's very unlikely.

okay, so the Quran nor the Bible describe God.

My next question: Is man a being of reason and logic or emotion?



@Fester, tell your uncle that death has been appointed for each soul before it's birth.
It's a part of destiny, no matter our actions.

Qur'an - [ 16:61 ] -  "Were Allah to take people to task for their wrong-doing, He would not have spared even a single living creature on the face of the earth. But He grants them respite until an appointed term. And when that term arrives, they have no power to delay it by a single moment, nor to hasten it."

For one thing, I argued that the Bible does describe God.  For another, I'm not going to lie to my uncle about souls and such.

@ iSok

On your plane example, it really is rather pointless speculation. People are driven to survive, and make choices in order to achieve that. One of those choices might be wish for a god to save you and actually take action to survive or give in, accepting through wishful thinking survival in the "next" life. The next choice would be, which god are you going to believe in and pray to (and thus negotiate your survival with) to save your life? The one that you already believe in? That your parent's believe in? The one permeates your native culture?

But not all people go that way though, not everyone tries to control a situation through a god, even if despairing.