Happy Atheist Forum

So I've been wondering about the alleged natures of Heaven and Hell. Maybe a theist would be able to assist me on this one. These places are supposed to be atemporal, yes? They are not subject to time. How, then, does one enter Heaven? If I die and enter Heaven, does this not create 2 heavenly states? One in which I am present, and one in which I am not? I should think so. There was a Heaven in which I was not present, and then...or, rather, there is, also, a Heaven where I am present.

Do you see the confusion?

The thing separating my house when it is devoid of me, and my house when it contains me, is time. I was out, then I was home. If there were no time in Heaven, wouldn't there only be one allowable state? Either a Heaven with me, or without me? As I am here, and not in Heaven, one might conclude that it is not possible for me to enter Heaven at all. Or is it?

Creating a fiction incorporating time travel is pretty tricky, the story has to be entertaining for people to suspend disbelief.  The Borg were prevented from destroying the Earth through time travel once, why not try a few more times?  I'm willing to accept the story though because the Borg queen is kind of cool.  The biblical characters don't appeal to me, they're all a bit dated.  Timelessness in heaven may explain the delay of the second coming, Jesus set his clock but the alarm didn't go off.

A day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day.  Time has no meaning to God.  Whether time ellapses or not is not important, as he is all-powerful and can make alternate dimensions with physics that don't exist or make sense in our dimension.  Remember, all-powerful means anything is possible just so that the Bible makes sense even when it doesn't.

Quote from: "dgmort19"The thing separating my house when it is devoid of me, and my house when it contains me, is time.

Why can a hypothetical heaven not have some other concept of time than the linear model we use..?

QuoteWhy can a hypothetical heaven not have some other concept of time than the linear model we use..?

I suppose it must, if it is to be eternal. I was just wondering, really, whether this was something for which anyone had a kind of explanation. One reason I could never be religious is that I'd never have explanations for things such as these. I'm unwilling to say, "I don't know, ask God." I should be able to explain what it is that I believe.

Maybe it's like a schrodinger's cat kind of thing, you're both present and not present.

God is supposed to know everything, therefore it knows who is going to heaven and thus when it made heaven it had everyone who was going there in it already. I suppose the same is true for hell.

Why are you still interested in the concept of religion?
Don't you find it a waste of time? I don't mean to be rude, but I can find more enjoyable ways
of spending my time.
Sometimes I think people get even more interested in religion after they leave.

Not too offend you, the Qur'an calls your behaviour 'Dhulm'.

Pondering is never a waste of time, time is a waste of pondering.

Quote from: "iSok"Why are you still interested in the concept of religion?
Don't you find it a waste of time?
Sometimes I think people get even more interested in religion after they leave.

Not too offend you, the Qur'an calls your behaviour 'Dhulm'.

Just because I'm not religious doesn't mean I'm not interested in mythology.  Learning about God or Allah or any other current deities is similar for me to learning about Jupiter/Zeus or Ra.  There is human history in religion, in that we can learn what people believed in and how that affected their cultures.  For example, we find out by learning about Islam that it was begun as a way for Muhammad to gain a following, gain power, and gather an army so he could conquer and settle old scores.  Now, Islam is used by leaders of countries and communities to control ignorant people.  It is used, for example, by the Saudi royal family to control the people of Saudi Arabia, while the princes have orgies with drugs and alcohol.  Many of the ruling class in Kuwait leave the country during Ramadan so they don't have to fast.  I have seen it personally.

If I choose to completely ignore religion just because I don't believe in a god, then I fail to learn many lessons about history.

Quote from: "fester30"Just because I'm not religious doesn't mean I'm not interested in mythology.  Learning about God or Allah or any other current deities is similar for me to learning about Jupiter/Zeus or Ra.  There is human history in religion, in that we can learn what people believed in and how that affected their cultures.  For example, we find out by learning about Islam that it was begun as a way for Muhammad to gain a following, gain power, and gather an army so he could conquer and settle old scores.  Now, Islam is used by leaders of countries and communities to control ignorant people.  It is used, for example, by the Saudi royal family to control the people of Saudi Arabia, while the princes have orgies with drugs and alcohol.  Many of the ruling class in Kuwait leave the country during Ramadan so they don't have to fast.  I have seen it personally.

If I choose to completely ignore religion just because I don't believe in a god, then I fail to learn many lessons about history.

I am curious, can you provide evidence that the Prophet of Islam was interested in gaining power? It seems you know a lot about Islam, enlighten me please.
If there is one thing that is chrystal clear Fester, is that the Prophet was sincerely convinced that he was touched by God, before his prophethood his people called him 'The Trustworthy'.

His opponents asked him to stop spreading the message (monotheism) as it was devastating for the Meccan economy based on polytheism.

By a Quraish chief:
"If you (O Muhammad) are doing all this with a view to getting wealth, we will join together to give you greater riches than any Quraysh’ite has possessed. If ambition moves you, we will make you our chief. If you desire kingship we will readily offer you that. If you are under the power of an evil spirit which seems to haunt and dominate you so that you cannot shake off its yoke, then we shall call in skilful physicians to cure you."

If the prophet was out on worldy gains, then at this moment he reached his goal. But he continued and suffered until his death.

W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953.
His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty.

Maybe you should take a closer look on history
(what are your sources on the knowledge of Islam?)

Quote from: "dgmort19"These places [heaven & hell] are supposed to be atemporal, yes? They are not subject to time.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that heaven is atemporal - as in ''without time'' - as nothing in the Bible suggests this. According to the Bible, heaven is God's abode(Dt 26:15); he's not alone as the ''host of heaven'' worships God there (Ne 9:6), and angels come and go (Mk 13:32), and heaven is the ultimate resting place for saints from Earth. It's a busy place.

As for hell, it's pretty much the same. But hotter.

Quote from: "dgmort19"Do you see the confusion?

The confusion comes from your initial assumption that heaven and hell are without time.

QuoteI'm not sure where you got the idea that heaven is atemporal - as in ''without time'' - as nothing in the Bible suggests this.

I see. Perhaps it is a unique individual Christian's assumption that found its way into my head during a discussion.

QuoteJust because I'm not religious doesn't mean I'm not interested in mythology. Learning about God or Allah or any other current deities is similar for me to learning about Jupiter/Zeus or Ra.

This^

The fact that people actually believe these things (as opposed to Greek mythology, for instance, which is nearly ubiquitously accepted as a collection of tall tales) makes the topic all the more interesting. A profoundly interesting psychological phenomenon.

They may not be an expecially huge group, but greek pantheonists/Hellenists aren't exactly insignificant. One of my best friends is the community liaison to the New Cult of Artemis. (A small, as in about ten members, group based in Idaho.) She's told me about going to meetings similar in scope to decent sized conventions.

Quote from: "AreEl"

Quote from: "dgmort19"These places [heaven & hell] are supposed to be atemporal, yes? They are not subject to time.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that heaven is atemporal - as in ''without time'' - as nothing in the Bible suggests this. According to the Bible, heaven is God's abode(Dt 26:15); he's not alone as the ''host of heaven'' worships God there (Ne 9:6), and angels come and go (Mk 13:32), and heaven is the ultimate resting place for saints from Earth. It's a busy place.

As for hell, it's pretty much the same. But hotter.

Quote from: "dgmort19"Do you see the confusion?

The confusion comes from your initial assumption that heaven and hell are without time.

2 Peter 3:8:  But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:  With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Some Christians will tell you this helps to explain creation, evolution, and dinosaur bones.  Some Christians will tell you this means that heaven is atemporal.  Some Christians will tell you it simply means that time holds no meaning for God; that it's only important to man.

So yes, at least to some Christians, heaven is atemporal.  This was a big part of the problem for me with going to church when I was a Christian.  You can talk to a thousand different preachers and get a thousand different stories about what everything in the Bible is trying to say.  Too confusing.  It's just so much easier to realize there's no hell to have to jump through hoops to stay out of.

Quote from: "fester30"2 Peter 3:8:  But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:  With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Some Christians will tell you this helps to explain creation, evolution, and dinosaur bones.  Some Christians will tell you this means that heaven is atemporal.  Some Christians will tell you it simply means that time holds no meaning for God; that it's only important to man.

So yes, at least to some Christians, heaven is atemporal.  This was a big part of the problem for me with going to church when I was a Christian.  You can talk to a thousand different preachers and get a thousand different stories about what everything in the Bible is trying to say.  Too confusing.  It's just so much easier to realize there's no hell to have to jump through hoops to stay out of.

Fester,

heaven isn't atemporal. This can be deduced from what the Bible says, period.  That ''some Christians'' may believe in atemporality - or other bizarre notions - just tells me that their biblical literacy lacking.

As for talking ''to a thousand different preachers and get a thousand different [explanations about what the Bible says]'' this is an exaggeration but contains a kernel of truth. The best way around this foolishness is to read the book yourself and see what it says. No one will serve you better than yourself.

I don't know, I've heard the Heaven is timeless thing many times. Just because YOU believe a certain thing doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong. With so many bibles and denominations within Christianity it's hard to talk about things in generalities.

Maybe the timelessness of heaven doesn't apply to your specific branch of Christianity, but that doesn't change the fact that at least SOME Christian do believe in it.

...They also tend to believe that there is only one right way: their way. Thus, that particular "truth" has more shades than a coral reef.

Quote from: "Byronazriel"I don't know, I've heard the Heaven is timeless thing many times. Just because YOU believe a certain thing doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong. With so many bibles and denominations within Christianity it's hard to talk about things in generalities.

Maybe the timelessness of heaven doesn't apply to your specific branch of Christianity, but that doesn't change the fact that at least SOME Christian do believe in it.

There are a whole bunch of wierdos out there - theists and atheists alike - each with their own idea of ''Truth.''  What makes Truth true, is its reality. Truth is that which is. Wishing something true does not make it so. I am telling you what the Bible says about the temporality of heaven & hell, period. That some Christians are unknowledgeable about what the Bible says and invent foolish ideas about heaven & hell does not make their ideas biblically valid.  

Quote from: "Asmodean"...They also tend to believe that there is only one right way: their way. Thus, that particular "truth" has more shades than a coral reef.

Truth is that which is. Surely you will agree with this!  So, if you have an intellectual bent, look up for yourself what the Bible says about time. All the wording on this subject is clear and devoid of mumbo jumbo. You can either be knowledgeable about something or you can be unknowledgeable. Move beyond your ignorance on this subject and stop repeating what you've heard second hand.

There is no true, or proper way to read the bible, no matter how capitalised it is Truth is subjective. What makes the truth true is its state of not being a lie.

If someone is wrong about something, it's still true from their point of view. How do you know that you're not the foolish one, that your interpretation is correct... or for that matter if there even is a correct interpretation of the bible!?

If the wording was clear, and devoid of mumbo jumbo about the nature of time in heaven... Then how come you haven't quoted it? You're the one making a claim, we shouldn't have to be the ones to research it. I know I'm not going to.

Quote from: "Byronazriel"There is no true, or proper way to read the bible, no matter how capitalised it is Truth is subjective.

There is a proper way to read the Bible: open it, read it and understand it at face value. The same way you would read any book. Truth is never subjective; if it were, your statement ''Truth is subjective'' would be both ''false and true''. In other words: nonsense.

Quote from: "Byronazriel"What makes the truth true is its state of not being a lie.

Correct. Truth is that which is. Lie is that which is not. This is an axiom that applies to everything.

Quote from: "Byronazriel"If someone is wrong about something, it's still true from their point of view.

If someone is wrong about something, they are simply wrong and are believing a lie. Believing a lie does not make the lie true.

Quote from: "Byronazriel"How do you know that you're not the foolish one, that your interpretation is correct... or for that matter if there even is a correct interpretation of the bible!?

This question is beyond the scope of the discussion. We were talking about what the Bible says about heaven and hell, period. Correct interpretation of the Bible is the same as any other book: literal/face value. This ''Normal'' method (as its name implies!) gives matter-of-fact/common-sense interpretations of what is read. Allegorical or Mystical methods lead to foolishness and bizarre notions. Don't believe me? try reading a newspaper using the Mystical method of interpretation...

Quote from: "Byronazriel"If the wording was clear, and devoid of mumbo jumbo about the nature of time in heaven... Then how come you haven't quoted it? You're the one making a claim, we shouldn't have to be the ones to research it. I know I'm not going to.

I don't quote the Bible because most atheists (like most Christians!) just don't care to see what is really there. You would rather continue believing what you think to be true. I'm fine with that. For those who are interested about what the Bible really says about temporality, I gave a few references in an earlier post.

I consider this discussion closed. Here is a summary my various posts:

The Bible doesn't say that heaven and hell are atemporal (without time). If you - theist or atheist - think this is what the Bible says, you are in error. The Bible says that Heaven is eternal, that hell is a created place and will be eternal.  Your opinion as to the Bible's truth or falsehood are irrelevant here: my goal has always been to tell you what the Bible really says about these two places, period.

Quote from: "AreEl"Truth is that which is. Surely you will agree with this!

The right truth is the last one left standing. Even if it is flawed, that fact becomes irrelevant after a certain point.

If you are talking about objective truth on a massive scale, that's a different matter, but especially in cases of multiple choice problems, truth is relative to the observer.

QuoteSo, if you have an intellectual bent, look up for yourself what the Bible says about time.

Why..? This looks directed at me, but I'm not even IN the time vs. Bible debate - not my area of interest.

QuoteAll the wording on this subject is clear and devoid of mumbo jumbo. You can either be knowledgeable about something or you can be unknowledgeable.

Uh...

You are either lacking knowledge about something or have a certain degree of said knowledge, yes. The way you put it, however, makes a very black and white statement with which I disagree.

QuoteMove beyond your ignorance on this subject and stop repeating what you've heard second hand.

Again, why are you directing that at me? If you wish to contest the statement I have made, I will happily defend it and defend it well, even if in a way largely subjective to self. If you call me ignorant on the subject, please provide relevant quotes to substantiate.

Quote from: "AreEl"There is a proper way to read the Bible: open it, read it and understand it at face value. The same way you would read any book. Truth is never subjective; if it were, your statement ''Truth is subjective'' would be both ''false and true''. In other words: nonsense.

I say that what I say is true, you say it is not, therefore it is both true and false. Depending on how you look at it, which reinforces my notion that truth is subjective. Also the bible cannot be taken entirely literally, and be the truth at the same time. It has too many contradictions for that, both with itself and with reality.

QuoteCorrect. Truth is that which is. Lie is that which is not. This is an axiom that applies to everything.

Well really the opposite of true is false, which doesn't necesitate deception.

QuoteIf someone is wrong about something, they are simply wrong and are believing a lie. Believing a lie does not make the lie true.

Lying is an intentional deception, there are many different definitions of truth. Truth first and foremost is based on that which is real. However, reality may very well be subjective as well! What's true for one person can be false for another.

For example my birthday is in september, this is NOT true for people born in months that are not september.

QuoteDon't believe me? try reading a newspaper using the Mystical method of interpretation...

Newspapers are no where near as complex or inconsistant as a bible.

QuoteI don't quote the Bible because most atheists (like most Christians!) just don't care to see what is really there. You would rather continue believing what you think to be true. I'm fine with that. For those who are interested about what the Bible really says about temporality, I gave a few references in an earlier post.

A: I am not an atheist, or a Christian. B: You make direct claims about the bible, unless you back that up with evidence I'm just going to assume you're lying or are mistaken.

Quote from: "AreEl"Fester,

heaven isn't atemporal. This can be deduced from what the Bible says, period.  That ''some Christians'' may believe in atemporality - or other bizarre notions - just tells me that their biblical literacy lacking.

As for talking ''to a thousand different preachers and get a thousand different [explanations about what the Bible says]'' this is an exaggeration but contains a kernel of truth. The best way around this foolishness is to read the book yourself and see what it says. No one will serve you better than yourself.

You can't tell me for sure anything about God or heaven because there is no way you can know for sure your interpretation of the Bible is superior to anyone else's.  You're a Christian, and you're telling me that some Christians believe in "bizarre notions."  That's amazing to me because I think all of you believe in bizarre notions.  I was a Christian for 33 years, I read the Bible cover-to-cover twice, attended a Biblical seminar, took an Old Testament and New Testament class in college, read Bible commentaries that had many volumes describing each Bible verse in detail, and it never made sense to me.  

In this post, you say that you can deduce things from what the Bible says.  In another post, you say the Bible is to be understood at face value.  You can't have it both ways.  Every Christian interprets the Bible, whether they claim to or not.  They either infer hidden meaning into verses or they emphasize certain parts of the Bible while lending less emphasis to other parts, all to suit their needs.  The entire time, there isn't any evidence of the existence of God or even of Jesus, and so the argument over which Christianity is the right Christianity is sort of comical to me.  Maybe I'm wrong and I'll end up in hell, maybe not.  It's nice, however, not to be afraid of it anymore, and let that fear dictate my actions, thoughts, and self image.

AreEl, could you direct me to the relevant passages? I'd like to see whether I agree with you.