Happy Atheist Forum

I'm not going to post his user name here; if he wants to talk about it I'm sure he'll stop by and do so.

Atheist arrested for protesting prayer at school board meeting (http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-orlando/atheist-arrested-for-protesting-prayer-at-school-board-meeting)

Controversy follows atheist arrest (http://www.polkcountydemocrat.com/articles/2011/02/28/news/local/doc4d6bd89c85f74402542617.txt)

From the second story:

Quote"I have noticed in our community we have atheists," said Tabitha Hunt, who then took a dramatic pause before she continued.  "God forbid."

"Theyre pretty outspoken," she said. "I think we as Christians need to be just as outspoken. As Christians, we need to be more aggressive and less tolerant."

Now would be a very good time to organize in Florida. This is quite simply unacceptable behavior on the part of the Polk County School Board, and it deserves not only universal rebuke from atheists and theists alike, but also deserves active protest. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in California for a few months, but I would like to do something to help none the less. I'll be posting this on Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/fv9k6/atheist_arrested_for_protesting_prayer_at_school/) and several other forums shortly, as well as contacting the ACLU and Atheist Alliance International as well. An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

Wait... Our own as in someone on HAF..?  

...Interesting...

Quote from: "Will"Now would be a very good time to organize in Florida. This is quite simply unacceptable behavior on the part of the Polk County School Board, and it deserves not only universal rebuke from atheists and theists alike, but also deserves active protest. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in California for a few months, but I would like to do something to help none the less. I'll be posting this on Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/fv9k6/atheist_arrested_for_protesting_prayer_at_school/) and several other forums shortly, as well as contacting the ACLU and Atheist Alliance International as well. An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

While I agree with you and the protestor(er)...that "Prayer has no place in government" for the most part.  Would prayer be allowed/tolerated if the majority of the school board members voted in favor for it?  Or if one member is against it, it should be out?  I might side with a more democratic view, however I can see how one individual's rights MAY be violated.  Either way, I don't mind there not being prayer in any meetings that are not religious in nature.

Democracy is only one of two parts of our republic, the other being the protection of the minority against the tyranny of the majority. Pure democracy can be incredibly problematic in that the will of the majority can be imposed on the minority even when that will violates their basic human rights. One of the basic human rights based in the American Constitution is the freedom of religion, which along with Article 6 and the 14th Amendment, and established and reaffirmed by the Supreme Court, means a strict wall of separation between church and state. Let me ask you this: would you be okay with your children attending a school which is governed by a board which prays to Satan before every meeting? Wouldn't you be concerned that their willingness to bring their religious beliefs in the form of prayer could also suggest that their decision in how to run the school in a Satanic way? That's what it's like to be in the minority, and it's why the minority require basic protections.

Prayer has no place in government, or government sponsored functions.
These "well, before the meeting, everyone is free to do what they want" excuses just have to stop.

That being said, don't you think the atheists could have addressed the issue in a more rational manner?
Shouting, confrontation, resisting arrest... none of these puts atheists in a good light.
... and take the pills out of your pocket before you taunt the police (really, doesn't anybody watch "Cops"?)

Quote from: "Will"Democracy is only one of two parts of our republic, the other being the protection of the minority against the tyranny of the majority. Pure democracy can be incredibly problematic in that the will of the majority can be imposed on the minority even when that will violates their basic human rights. One of the basic human rights based in the American Constitution is the freedom of religion, which along with Article 6 and the 14th Amendment, and established and reaffirmed by the Supreme Court, means a strict wall of separation between church and state. Let me ask you this: would you be okay with your children attending a school which is governed by a board which prays to Satan before every meeting? Wouldn't you be concerned that their willingness to bring their religious beliefs in the form of prayer could also suggest that their decision in how to run the school in a Satanic way? That's what it's like to be in the minority, and it's why the minority require basic protections.

Since I have the freedom/option to send my children to a private school, I have no problem with the majority voting to pray to Satan or any thing they decide warrants prayer.  It is a simple plea to a higher knowledge or even a "prayer" that the assembly on the whole be of one spirit.  If that school was the only school I could send my child(ren), then I would have an issue.  But then again your view of Satan and my view of Satan probably differ.

The question to me, then is, what basic right, under freedom of religion, is being violated on a person that has no belief in any sort of deity, be it God, Satan, or a Unicorn, basically holds no religious beliefs?  Forcing *you to actually verbalize a prayer would be a violation, but if *you don't want to, as it seems they have done, *you are able to avoid the prayer as it is prior to the drop of the gavel.

Please remember that I'm not of the side that necessarily WANTS prayer in government or schools.  I think it should be personal and if one wants to pray ALONE, he/she should not be hindered in doing so.  I'm just asking to be better informed on the matter as I look at it trying to be unbiased.

Quote from: "joeactor"Prayer has no place in government, or government sponsored functions.
These "well, before the meeting, everyone is free to do what they want" excuses just have to stop.

See my reply/question to Will above.

Quote from: "joeactor"That being said, don't you think the atheists could have addressed the issue in a more rational manner?
Shouting, confrontation, resisting arrest... none of these puts atheists in a good light.
... and take the pills out of your pocket before you taunt the police (really, doesn't anybody watch "Cops"?)

I think so too.  It doesn't look well to resort to the same tactic(s) as the "other side" uses to get their point across.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Wait... Our own as in someone on HAF..?  

...Interesting...

Yes...I doubt he's trying to be secretive about his arrest and probably will wear it as a badge of honor for standing up for our rights.  But I can't remember if he openly has connected his real name to his posts here so I'll leave it to him to disclose or for others to figure out.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Since I have the freedom/option to send my children to a private school,

Very few parents are in a financial situation to pay the tuition for a private school, AD. I'm glad you have that option, but for the vast majority of parents, that is not an avenue they can utilize should the administrators of their public school not understand the reality of the separation between church and state.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"I have no problem with the majority voting to pray to Satan or any thing they decide warrants prayer.  It is a simple plea to a higher knowledge or even a "prayer" that the assembly on the whole be of one spirit.  If that school was the only school I could send my child(ren), then I would have an issue.

Why would you have an issue?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"The question to me, then is, what basic right, under freedom of religion, is being violated on a person that has no belief in any sort of deity, be it God, Satan, or a Unicorn, basically holds no religious beliefs?  Forcing *you to actually verbalize a prayer would be a violation, but if *you don't want to, as it seems they have done, *you are able to avoid the prayer as it is prior to the drop of the gavel.

The right begin violated is freedom from religion. In the United States, I am legally protected from government religion just as religion is protected from government. It's a two-way street. Just as it's wrong for government to meddle in the affairs of religion, it's wrong for religion to meddle in the affairs of government. As these people are praying in their roles as public school board members, they are a part of the government and as such, in those roles, are legally prohibited from advancing or inhibiting religion.

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Since I have the freedom/option to send my children to a private school,

Very few parents are in a financial situation to pay the tuition for a private school, AD. I'm glad you have that option, but for the vast majority of parents, that is not an avenue they can utilize should the administrators of their public school not understand the reality of the separation between church and state.

It's quite expensive and because of it, we do without some things.  My daughter grad'd from the private HS, but my son we pulled out because we saw the education level dwindling there.  My daughter continues in her 3rd year in a private college.  Graduates June 2012!  What a financial relief that will be!

Quote from: "Will"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"I have no problem with the majority voting to pray to Satan or any thing they decide warrants prayer.  It is a simple plea to a higher knowledge or even a "prayer" that the assembly on the whole be of one spirit.  If that school was the only school I could send my child(ren), then I would have an issue.

Why would you have an issue?

Obviously because of the opposition to God.  If they want to pray to Satan, it's ok with me as long as the best interest of education is first and foremost...and not the indoctrination into a system that prays to Satan OR the Christian God.  Religious beliefs should be 100% home taught.  If the school does HELP, that's a plus, but not at the expense of education.

Quote from: "Will"The right begin violated is freedom from religion. In the United States, I am legally protected from government religion just as religion is protected from government. It's a two-way street. Just as it's wrong for government to meddle in the affairs of religion, it's wrong for religion to meddle in the affairs of government. As these people are praying in their roles as public school board members, they are a part of the government and as such, in those roles, are legally prohibited from advancing or inhibiting religion.

I would argue that *you are not forced to participate in a prayer.  *You are free to refrain from hearing or being involved in it.  Maybe they should implement the prayer at more convenience to the non-believer.

I would suggest this:
The board meeting starts at 6pm.
For those wanting to pray as a group before, prayer will be from 5:45 - 5:50pm.  Prayer will start no earlier and end no later.

Now the non-believer knows that there's no reason to get there before 5:50pm.  How would this work out for the non-religious?  Is this still violating freedom from religion?

if the board members would just pray privately beforehand this wouldn't even be an issue....but they want to make a show of their praying (which I'm pretty sure is against the Christian belief, I know it was against my idea of Christianity when I was a believer).

it would also be okay if people who planned to attend the school board meeting organized a see you at the pole type of gathering prior to the meeting.  

Yes, the problem is with it overlapping a time when non-believers pretty much must be in the room as otherwise they might miss the start of the board meeting (and if they are in the room they have no choice but to observe the prayer, rather than talk amongst themselves, otherwise they get arrested!).  But the other problem is that it is a government organized prayer session and that violates separation of church and state for the reasons Will listed.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Obviously because of the opposition to God.  If they want to pray to Satan, it's ok with me as long as the best interest of education is first and foremost...and not the indoctrination into a system that prays to Satan OR the Christian God.  Religious beliefs should be 100% home taught.  If the school does HELP, that's a plus, but not at the expense of education.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flamecast.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F11%2Fthats-a-bingo2.jpg&hash=1740713fbd7b585ab9cef6ed0e1967f307d3a9ca)
I feel the same way about any religion, basically. As an atheist, I'm fine with people believing what they want, but evangelizing in schoolsâ€"and that includes any prayer being led by any school teacher or official at any school or school-related activityâ€"is unacceptable. If a teacher or administrator were at a school meeting saying there is no god, I would be right there shoulder to shoulder with theist parents complaining about it because religious matters do not belong in a public school. By praying, these board members are saying 1) there is a god, 2) it's a Christian God, and 3) their belief in that Christin God has bearing on their responsibilities as school board members. That's the violation.

Quote from: "Whitney"if the board members would just pray privately beforehand this wouldn't even be an issue....but they want to make a show of their praying (which I'm pretty sure is against the Christian belief, I know it was against my idea of Christianity when I was a believer).

it would also be okay if people who planned to attend the school board meeting organized a see you at the pole type of gathering prior to the meeting.  

Yes, the problem is with it overlapping a time when non-believers pretty much must be in the room as otherwise they might miss the start of the board meeting (and if they are in the room they have no choice but to observe the prayer, rather than talk amongst themselves, otherwise they get arrested!).  But the other problem is that it is a government organized prayer session and that violates separation of church and state for the reasons Will listed.

Oh...I see the argument better.  (but I agreed from the beginning).

Quote from: "Will"I feel the same way about any religion, basically. As an atheist, I'm fine with people believing what they want, but evangelizing in schoolsâ€"and that includes any prayer being led by any school teacher or official at any school or school-related activityâ€"is unacceptable. If a teacher or administrator were at a school meeting saying there is no god, I would be right there shoulder to shoulder with theist parents complaining about it because religious matters do not belong in a public school. By praying, these board members are saying 1) there is a god, 2) it's a Christian God, and 3) their belief in that Christin God has bearing on their responsibilities as school board members. That's the violation.

One would hope that the prayer would be to their being lead to the better decisions for education.  Their Christian ideas would have to be checked at the door, if you will, in forming policy.  I know God can also think on the Civil side of things apart from religion. (in fact, I don't believe God intended there to be "religion" as we see it...do's and don'ts.)

Yet another example of Atheist martyrdom, though the person could have been a bit more... subtle? Shouting wasn't the best way to go, then again, I probably would've done the same thing.  

And as far as prayer in school is concerned, freedom of religion in school, Christians are not concerned with freedom to practice religion in school, in government publicly. Christians are concerned with freedom to practicie CHRISTIANITY in school and government publicly. The moment another view is brought forward, the Fundies jump on it and piss and moan untill it's taken away.

My "I have no problem with the religious as long as they keep to themselves"  view is once again contravened. It sounds like the police acted pretty poorly from the articles, are people supposed to carry around a prescription at all times for any meds they are taking? Seems like an excuse to me, I will be interested to find out the results of any charges.

It also sounds like disrupting "the bit right before the meeting where people just coincidently happen to pray" was perfectly legitimate, if the meeting has not started, then the chair has no power and it should be held in no more esteem than people idly chatting about the heroic quantities of alcohol imbibed over the weekend (the preferred topic of conversation before meetings round these parts).

Interesting. American citizens arrested in the U.S. for loudly interrupting a prayer prior to a public tax supported meeting.

I have had to sit through led prayers at school and local government events and  and my response has been to keep my head up and quietly watch.  I more recently have politely taken video which could be used for informational purposes if I ever want to pursue any legal action.

I'm curious.  Has anyone else here had to sit through prayers during school or government events?  How did you react?

Wouldn't reciting the Constitution or anything of THAT nature (maybe singing the Nat'l Anthem) during a prayer in an otherwise neutral setting where prayer MIGHT be infringing on rights be a better "protest" than simply clicking photos or speaking or even shouting words of a protest?

This not only would "interupt", but then it would serve as a point in forcing the powers that be decide which deserves the importance or better, the precedence.  The prayer or the Constitution of the United States in a public meeting serving tax payers.

It seems to me, not that I support the "Atheist agenda", but I do support the separation of Church and State, that this would be the better "protest" tool.

Does anyone find problems with this?  I'm curious.

Quote from: "LARA"Interesting. American citizens arrested in the U.S. for loudly interrupting a prayer prior to a public tax supported meeting.

I have had to sit through led prayers at school and local government events and  and my response has been to keep my head up and quietly watch.  I more recently have politely taken video which could be used for informational purposes if I ever want to pursue any legal action.

I'm curious.  Has anyone else here had to sit through prayers during school or government events?  How did you react?

I sit through them at funerals, but if the person that died was religious then that is fair enough. Although I do find it a strange practice and the things that are said are odd and very God and Jesus promoting. I actually get annoyed at all the god promotion, I want to hear more about the person who has just died.
Out of respect for the dead I am certainly not going to make an issue of it.

But it is strange, and I struggle to know what to do with myself at these times. I certainly do not close my eyes or say amen at the end. Sometimes I use it as an opportunity to see who my fellow non Christians are.

I can't fathom what it would be like at school or at govt events. I wouldn't be happy, maybe yell out praise Allah at the end when people say ahmen, or maybe put a fake jewish hat on or something as a small protest. I wouldn't go to the extreme of making a disruptive protest and getting myself arrested. If you really want to fight it then court is probably better than getting yourself arrested, but then again court is expensive and in some countries or states the courts are infected by the Jesus bug too.

Yeah, or as AD says, sing the national anthem, or if you are American, recite the Constitution or that "I pledge allegance to the flag..." thing that Americans do. Maybe some native Indian chants.

But then again, I wouldn't want to make too much of a spectacle of myself. Would be interesting though, if they take action to kick you out of school or make you not attend the gatherings then you could sue them.

But before you make a disruptive protest it maybe a good idea to confront the headmaster and discuss the issue and give them an opportunity to resolve the issue without making it too public. It would be interesting if they find that as well as Christian prayer then they need to do a Jewish one and then a muslim one and then...  Time would run out before they get to start the meeting.

I don't think some Christians realise how annoying these prayer sessions can be and how intolerant they are.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Wouldn't reciting the Constitution or anything of THAT nature (maybe singing the Nat'l Anthem) during a prayer in an otherwise neutral setting where prayer MIGHT be infringing on rights be a better "protest" than simply clicking photos or speaking or even shouting words of a protest?

This not only would "interupt", but then it would serve as a point in forcing the powers that be decide which deserves the importance or better, the precedence.  The prayer or the Constitution of the United States in a public meeting serving tax payers.

It seems to me, not that I support the "Atheist agenda", but I do support the separation of Church and State, that this would be the better "protest" tool.

Does anyone find problems with this?  I'm curious.

I think that is a wonderful idea.  I think keeping church and state separate isn't an atheist agenda...it's an agenda for anyone who values separation of church and state and the freedom of/from religion it grants us all.

Even some atheists wonder why there is a need to protect this separation, they don't want to rock the boat....but, imo, it's too late once the boat makes a landing on the shores of theocracy; which is where some people in this country want to steer us.

edit:  Just wanted to note that I prefer methods that don't have a chance of arrest and that don't draw negative attention to myself...would opt for running for school board, filing lawsuit (assuming I had money), building up local and national support online, submitting press releases/stories to the local papers etc and otherwise being a general pain in the current school board's ass before I'd ever plan on organizing events to disrupt school board prayer.  But I think that's a personality difference.

Quote from: "Whitney"I think that is a wonderful idea.

Can we call it the Animated Dirt Technique?  

Newscaster: Several protestors were taken into custody earlier this evening at the Los Angeles County School Board Meeting when just as a prayer began, the group suddenly broke out in the singing of the National Anthem.  One witness says he had over heard one of the protestors saying it was the "Animated Dirt Technique".  The witness also mentioned the beautiful harmony.  The city attorney says he's looking into the delicate situation...

Quote from: "Will"I'll be posting this on Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/fv9k6/atheist_arrested_for_protesting_prayer_at_school/) and several other forums shortly, as well as contacting the ACLU and Atheist Alliance International as well. An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

Our own ACLU of Florida (http://www.aclufl.org/index.cfm) fell a little short on funding this year, I believe. I'm not sure of the best way to contact them about this (general email?).

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Whitney"I think that is a wonderful idea.

Can we call it the Animated Dirt Technique?  :D

Quote from: "Will"Now would be a very good time to organize in Florida. This is quite simply unacceptable behavior on the part of the Polk County School Board, and it deserves not only universal rebuke from atheists and theists alike, but also deserves active protest. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in California for a few months, but I would like to do something to help none the less. I'll be posting this on Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/fv9k6/atheist_arrested_for_protesting_prayer_at_school/) and several other forums shortly, as well as contacting the ACLU and Atheist Alliance International as well. An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.

Polk county, eh? Wow, thank goodness people are so much more tolerant up here in the Panhandle! </sarcasm>