Happy Atheist Forum

I was discussing about the purpose of life with a muslim friend of mine. I asked him a question but I didn't get a proper answer.

This life is supposed to be a test or trial. Trial set by an all-knowing and all-powerful god. Now at this point, it all stops making sense . As God is all-knowing, she already knows the result of such a trial. So why run it in the first place?

Because God, if he/she/it is real, is a sadistic, manipulative, malovelant bully, who enjoys watching his creations suffer in real time.

This begs the question, does your muslim friend believe in "fate" or "free-will"? And by all-knowing, are you sure he/she isn't meaning "all-knowing-after-the-fact"?

Quote from: "ForTheLoveOfAll"Because God, if he/she/it is real, is a sadistic, manipulative, malovelant bully, who enjoys watching his creations suffer in real time.

There's nothing wrong with being a sadist if your victims are willing.

That said, religion doesn't exactly hold up to logic.

That's what they tell themselves   God is good, god is love and exists everywhere but at the same time evil is where god is not...or some variation.  

They compartmentalize. They say that such things are above logic but that's just because they aren't (dont want to?) drawing the necessary links and conclusions that necessarily follow from their own assertions.

Pure wishful thinking if you ask me. They want to believe in some multiple personality type god who serves for every possible purpose spanning every possible event in their lives.

Apparently god also hates freaks that it created, as validated by a christian who has access to god's knowledge (in his own head, but he doesn't see it that way). Talk about merging with your imaginary friend...

Quote from: "DirtyLeo"This life is supposed to be a test or trial. Trial set by an all-knowing and all-powerful god. Now at this point, it all stops making sense . As God is all-knowing, she already knows the result of such a trial. So why run it in the first place?

You are misinformed. Life is not a ''test'' or a ''trial'' to see if you are up to snuff.

Trials are for the Christian only and serve to strengthen faith. The definitive Bible quote on this subject is found in James 1:2-5.

Quote from: "AreEl"You are misinformed. Life is not a ''test'' or a ''trial'' to see if you are up to snuff.

That's your opinion, of course. Many Christians believe that this life is a trial.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "AreEl"You are misinformed. Life is not a ''test'' or a ''trial'' to see if you are up to snuff.

That's your opinion, of course. Many Christians believe that this life is a trial.

Context, LegendarySandwich, context.  It's vital.  Life is a trial to those that are seemingly swimming against the current.  But don't confuse that with *your perceived meaning that God made it a trial.

It's not that God made life a trial, but that this life became a trial.  The Atheist might say that if God knew it would be, that God then designed it to be so.  If there is free will (free choice) then the outcome may be known to God, but the path is not designed by God.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"If there is free will (free choice) then the outcome may be known to God, but the path is not designed by God.

Well he should get out of the road then.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "AreEl"You are misinformed. Life is not a ''test'' or a ''trial'' to see if you are up to snuff.

That's your opinion, of course. Many Christians believe that this life is a trial.

It isn't my opinion. It is what the Bible clearly says: trials are a means of strengthening a Christian's faith, period. That's all they are for; see James, chapter 1, verses 2-to-4 for confirmation. Trials have nothing to do with non-Christians. (Life itself is not a trial, although Christians and others may feel it is.)

Dr House/AnimatedDirt says it well:

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "AreEl"You are misinformed. Life is not a ''test'' or a ''trial'' to see if you are up to snuff.

That's your opinion, of course. Many Christians believe that this life is a trial.

Context, LegendarySandwich, context. It's vital. Life is a trial to those that are seemingly swimming against the current. But don't confuse that with *your perceived meaning that God made it a trial.

It's not that God made life a trial, but that this life became a trial. The Atheist might say that if God knew it would be, that God then designed it to be so. If there is free will (free choice) then the outcome may be known to God, but the path is not designed by God.

Quote from: "AreEl"It isn't my opinion. It is what the Bible clearly says: trials are a means of strengthening a Christian's faith, period. That's all they are for; see James, chapter 1, verses 2-to-4 for confirmation. Trials have nothing to do with non-Christians. (Life itself is not a trial, although Christians and others may feel it is.)

The Bible can, and has, been interpreted in so many ways, that yes, it is opinion.

(I'm not here to change minds, I just try to explain the thought process of people of faith without using all the bible references or a holy-rollin' attitude... here goes..)

Trials: My mom called it "creative parenting". If we wandered off in the store after she told us not to, she would keep an eye on us from around a corner where we couldn't see her. Just about the time we realized mom wasn't chasing after us this time, and started to freak out a little because we didn't see her, she would "find" us...lesson learned. It wasn't punishment, though at the time it seemed like the end of the world; it was a way of letting us make our own decisions and learning from our own mistakes in new situations. (Not making excuses for why people lose loved ones or suffer tragedy, just explaining that people of faith believe trials are meant to grow from.)

Omnipresence: Omnipresence is supposed to imply that God is in a state of timelessness. The reason given for His knowing what we are going to do is that he's seen it already...not that he traveled through time and came back, but that time passes in a different manner than here (makes me think of Einstein's twin paradox).  Another way to look at it is to think of seeing a video of an erupting volcano. The volcano had to have erupted for there to be footage of it. The idea is that even though God knows how it will end, it still has to happen so that he can "view the footage". It's not that he's magically psychic, it's that the time it takes for him to view it happening is different than how we percive time to be. (That's why you'll hear some creationists say that the biblical "day" might have been longer, because religion grants that time doesn't actually matter in Heaven). This is one of those things I won't pretend it doesn't take faith to accept  

Let me explain from the point of view from Islam, as you can I see I am a Muslim too.

The purpose of life within Islam: Spiritual growth towards God.
Within Islam, man in our reality is made of two components.
The soul (spiritual) and the body (matter).
The body is actually the place where the soul is placed in to experience the world.

Islam teaches that man should take care of both parts (the soul and the body).
Once man reaches the perfection of the body (enough food, shelter and no threats in the near future) he/she
should move on too the spiritual part (the soul).

I think if you want to maintain the body, you take.
If you want to maintain and grow your soul, you give.

So Islam teaches that once man has mainted his body in a reasonable way, his quest for happiness ends there.
For further source of happiness he should rather give. And this will make him happy in this life and the next (growing of the soul).

Let me give you an example:
If I have saved a lot of money for a flatscreen and I'm about to buy one. While walking to the store I see a homeless guy.
I have two options:

1. Buy the flatscreen (you take, materialistic aspect) or
2. I give my money to the homeless (you give, spiritual aspect).

Choosing for option 1 seems to make me more happy at first. But after a few days I will realise that the flatscreen is just a flatscreen.
So once again, I'll have to take something else to make myself more happy. To fill the empty void.

Choosing for option 2 doesn't seem to be a good one at first. But after giving, one is relieved. And you will never forget
the joy of the homeless when you handed him the money. Immediatly you are stimulated to give more to others.
I think when you choose for option 2, something inside you is growing.

It's of course a bit more complex, but I tried to make it more simple.
Evolution actually accepts this theory (altruism). Giving is better than taking.

So religion is not just about the next world. It's about the quest for happiness in this world
and the next. The message is: Do Good and you will experience Good.

Atheists often want to create a heaven on earth. But I think that is an illusion.
In a perfect world, man cannot exist.
Without the concept of giving, man will not be happy. (Science and Theology both agree on this theory)
In a perfect world, the concept of giving is no more, man will never allow that, so a perfect world cannot and will never exist in our reality.

For science the question is: How? and When? does the earth shake. Two fundamental questions.
For myself the first question is: Why? does the earth shake (answered by Religion), followed by How? and When? (both answered by Science).

Why? --> The Earth shakes because it makes us humans, it gives us the chance, the possibility to give and to take care of one and other.
              It unites us and it brings us together so we can find out how to avoid it next time.

This question is followed by How? and When?. Science both answers these question.
When researchers are looking for a medecine to treat cancer. Are they doing it just for the money or the reputation? Or is there more?
They give time and effort so man can defeat yet another challenge given by who I believe to be is God.
Once we have defeated cancer, we will see the rise of yet another challenge.
So we are stimulated to bring justice the world, by giving our time and our efforts. To face the evils in the world we cannot take but give.

So according to Islam: Life is a journey towards the illusional destination (perfection of the world) which does not exist. The important part for man, is the journey, NOT the destination.

Imam Al-Ghazali (a famous muslim philosopher from the 11th century): "We're all wayfarers, yet many of us do not know."

Qur'an - [5:35] Believers! Fear God and seek the means to come near to Him, and strive hard in His way; maybe you will attain true success.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "AreEl"It isn't my opinion. It is what the Bible clearly says: trials are a means of strengthening a Christian's faith, period. That's all they are for; see James, chapter 1, verses 2-to-4 for confirmation. Trials have nothing to do with non-Christians. (Life itself is not a trial, although Christians and others may feel it is.)

The Bible can, and has, been interpreted in so many ways, that yes, it is opinion.

OK, then please point out those passages in the Bible that imply or specifically state that life itself is a trial. I need specific biblical passages, not the opinions of Christians you may know.

Good luck.

Quote from: "AreEl"OK, then please point out those passages in the Bible that imply or specifically state that life itself is a trial. I need specific biblical passages, not the opinions of Christians you may know.

Good luck.

No. That's not the point.

Quote from: "Being_Brave"(I'm not here to change minds, I just try to explain the thought process of people of faith without using all the bible references or a holy-rollin' attitude... here goes..)

Trials: My mom called it "creative parenting". If we wandered off in the store after she told us not to, she would keep an eye on us from around a corner where we couldn't see her. Just about the time we realized mom wasn't chasing after us this time, and started to freak out a little because we didn't see her, she would "find" us...lesson learned. It wasn't punishment, though at the time it seemed like the end of the world; it was a way of letting us make our own decisions and learning from our own mistakes in new situations. (Not making excuses for why people lose loved ones or suffer tragedy, just explaining that people of faith believe trials are meant to grow from.)

Omnipresence: Omnipresence is supposed to imply that God is in a state of timelessness. The reason given for His knowing what we are going to do is that he's seen it already...not that he traveled through time and came back, but that time passes in a different manner than here (makes me think of Einstein's twin paradox).  Another way to look at it is to think of seeing a video of an erupting volcano. The volcano had to have erupted for there to be footage of it. The idea is that even though God knows how it will end, it still has to happen so that he can "view the footage". It's not that he's magically psychic, it's that the time it takes for him to view it happening is different than how we percive time to be. (That's why you'll hear some creationists say that the biblical "day" might have been longer, because religion grants that time doesn't actually matter in Heaven). This is one of those things I won't pretend it doesn't take faith to accept  

This is the problem with debating religion.  You don't get the same answer or point of view from two different people.  If God is in a state of timelessness, then he is atemporal.  Didn't another theist tell us that God and heaven are not atemporal on another thread?  You can't ask a question of theists if you want one concensus answer, but it is entertaining to see all the different ideas on what they think the Bible or Qur'an or other religious texts mean.

Quote from: "fester30"This is the problem with debating religion.  You don't get the same answer or point of view from two different people.  If God is in a state of timelessness, then he is atemporal.  Didn't another theist tell us that God and heaven are not atemporal on another thread?  You can't ask a question of theists if you want one concensus answer, but it is entertaining to see all the different ideas on what they think the Bible or Qur'an or other religious texts mean.

"To each community among you We have prescribed a Law and a way of life. If God had so willed He would have made you a single people, but His plan is to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you differ."
[Qur'an 5:48]

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "fester30"This is the problem with debating religion.  You don't get the same answer or point of view from two different people.  If God is in a state of timelessness, then he is atemporal.  Didn't another theist tell us that God and heaven are not atemporal on another thread?  You can't ask a question of theists if you want one concensus answer, but it is entertaining to see all the different ideas on what they think the Bible or Qur'an or other religious texts mean.

"To each community among you We have prescribed a Law and a way of life. If God had so willed He would have made you a single people, but His plan is to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you differ."
[Qur'an 5:48]

Besides from annoying us with unnecessary formatting, what was the point of that?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "fester30"This is the problem with debating religion.  You don't get the same answer or point of view from two different people.  If God is in a state of timelessness, then he is atemporal.  Didn't another theist tell us that God and heaven are not atemporal on another thread?  You can't ask a question of theists if you want one concensus answer, but it is entertaining to see all the different ideas on what they think the Bible or Qur'an or other religious texts mean.

"To each community among you We have prescribed a Law and a way of life. If God had so willed He would have made you a single people, but His plan is to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you differ."
[Qur'an 5:48]

Besides from annoying us with unnecessary formatting, what was the point of that?

Looks like Christmas to me.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "fester30"This is the problem with debating religion.  You don't get the same answer or point of view from two different people.  If God is in a state of timelessness, then he is atemporal.  Didn't another theist tell us that God and heaven are not atemporal on another thread?  You can't ask a question of theists if you want one concensus answer, but it is entertaining to see all the different ideas on what they think the Bible or Qur'an or other religious texts mean.

"To each community among you We have prescribed a Law and a way of life. If God had so willed He would have made you a single people, but His plan is to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you differ."
[Qur'an 5:48]

Besides from annoying us with unnecessary formatting, what was the point of that?

Ls, let me explain. I hope I understand the point of atheism by now.


On what do you base your worldview? Probably science, science is the answer for the mystery of life according to your view.
So if that is the truth for you, then we might ask. Where are you going?

1. Is science going to create a perfect world with everyone being happy in the near future? 2. Is the end of goal science: immortality?

1. It's impossible, as I explained earlier. Man will never allow that, man finds happiness in giving and not taking. Both evolution and theology agree on this.
    Evil will always exist, man will always be a primitive animal with arrogance and ego. You can only eliminate evil by killing homo sapien sapien.

2. Is immortality ethical? I am terrified of eternal life in this reality. Sometimes I doubt about my faith. Because I find the concept of eternal life terrifying.
    This is the only thing that does not allow me to be a 100% theist. But then I understand that the concept of eternal life in another life can be very different than this one.
    If someone now wants me to grant immortality, I can assure you that I will never accept, I'm very happy with dying.
   
So what is your purpose of life Ls? Is it enjoying life? Then why are you so mocking religion? Why can't you let others enjoy life the way they want too?
Or are you against the so called religion that evil causes? If we take a look at what does man WITHOUT religion, it's far more sinister and terrifying.
The conflicts that were caused in 20th century, were they the product of religion or the sinister behaviour of man?
Tell me, did religion tell people to throw two bombs on a city causing cancer decades after, or was it man?
Did secular societies cause more violence or was it religion?

You consider yourself to be without purpose without reason, you just are here and that's it.
What are you offering me?
Join the club and mock others so my self-esteem will increase?

Take a very good at this forum. And compare the section of topics about religions with the other sections.
You'll see that 99% of the people here are atheists, but then again the sub-forum religion is by far one of the largest.
Larger than science. While science is your 'religion'.

Do you know why Ls? Because deep inside you are terrified that you might be wrong.
The only way you can confirm your idea's is by mocking at religion so your beliefs will be more confirmed.

Take a good look at this thread: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6872
What other purpose does it have then mocking and confiming your beliefs?

In general; Everywhere on atheist forums is the section about religion the largest.

As you are an 'enlightened' atheist, I don't understand why you so spend so much time here wasting on this section (with 5? active theists on this forum).

Do you want to learn? If so, then why on a forum, go and read books.
Do you see it as humor? I can find better entertainment.

Or are you just about mocking religion?

I wanted to post this for quite some time. Can you answer?

Quote from: "iSok"I hope I understand the point of atheism by now.

Atheism is really, really easy to understand. An Atheist does not have a belief in any gods.

Here is a potential conversation that might help illustrate
Theist "Take a look at our scripture, God/Allah/Bhudda/... is wonderful, Islam/Christianity/Judeoism/Mormon... is the way to living a fulfilled and virtuous life"
Atheist "Nice theory, do you have any proof?"
Theist "There is no proof, you must simply believe"
Atheist "I'm pretty comfortable not having a god"
Theist "The unbeliever will go to hell"
Atheist "yeah, yeah, surely if your god were loving and perfect I wouldn't be judged for not choosing to believe in something where I was given no proof or compelling reason to believe"
Atheist "Out of all the various god theories that are abound, how did you settle on your one?"
Theist "The Quran is poetic beyond mortal ability"
          "The Bible tells me that it is the Truth, There is one true God, Jesus died to save us all"
          "Bhudda reached enlightenment"
          ...
Atheist (Yawn), "Get back to me when you have some proof"
 

Quote from: "iSok"On what do you base your worldview? Probably science, science is the answer for the mystery of life according to your view.

I can't speak for LS or any other Atheist, but from my perspective, It is not science that makes me an Atheist, I am sure a person could be keen on Science and still be a theist. For me I am happy tagging things as "unknown".
E.G.
how did energy and matter come into existence? "unknown"
how did the big bang expansion begin? "unknown",
how did matter and energy develop a conscience state and become alive? "unknown".

I would like to know the answers, but don't feel that anyone has provided sufficient proof yet. I won't subscribe to an unfounded, unproven belief system, just to have arbitrary "answers" to these questions. I don't need the answers, life goes on without.

Quote from: "iSok"I don't understand why you so spend so much time here wasting on this section (with 5? active theists on this forum).

Do you want to learn? If so, then why on a forum, go and read books.
Do you see it as humor? I can find better entertainment.

Or are you just about mocking religion?

I wanted to post this for quite some time. Can you answer?

I think this is a very good question.

For me I wanted to learn just a little about the bible, because I am keen to understand Christians. There are many Christians around in my society and hence I feel it is valuable to make an attempt at understanding them. I also want to understand why they struggle to understand the Atheists view point. I am also keen to understand Muslims too, I think there is too much conflict.
I have no interest in debunking religion but do explain my points of disbelieve so that the theist I am talking to can understand where I am coming from, potentially correct my understanding of their religion if I am off track.

Quote from: "iSok"Ls, let me explain. I hope I understand the point of atheism by now.

"Point"?

QuoteOn what do you base your worldview?

Not entirely sure.

QuoteProbably science,

Science is a big part, yes.

Quotescience is the answer for the mystery of life according to your view.

What's the "mystery of life"?

QuoteSo if that is the truth for you, then we might ask. Where are you going?

The general trend throughout human history has been progressive. There's no reason not to extrapolate that trend.

1. Is science going to create a perfect world with everyone being happy in the near future?[/quote]
The near future? Most likely no. Sometime in the future? Most likely yes, from my perspective.

Quote2. Is the end of goal science: immortality?

One of the goals, to me.

Quote1. It's impossible, as I explained earlier. Man will never allow that, man finds happiness in giving and not taking. Both evolution and theology agree on this.
    Evil will always exist, man will always be a primitive animal with arrogance and ego. You can only eliminate evil by killing homo sapien sapien.

I disagree.

Quote2. Is immortality ethical? I am terrified of eternal life in this reality. Sometimes I doubt about my faith. Because I find the concept of eternal life terrifying.
    This is the only thing that does not allow me to be a 100% theist. But then I understand that the concept of eternal life in another life can be very different than this one.
    If someone now wants me to grant immortality, I can assure you that I will never accept, I'm very happy with dying.

I think that if immortality was achieved, we'd find a way to be able to kill ourselves if we wanted to. If not, I'd still pick immortality for the hell of it.
   

QuoteSo what is your purpose of life Ls?

Not sure.

QuoteIs it enjoying life?

That's part of it.

QuoteThen why are you so mocking religion?

Because it makes me happy, even if only a little bit.

QuoteWhy can't you let others enjoy life the way they want too?

If you don't want to hear religion mocked, don't come to this site. It's that simple.

QuoteOr are you against the so called religion that evil causes?

Yep.

QuoteIf we take a look at what does man WITHOUT religion, it's far more sinister and terrifying.
The conflicts that were caused in 20th century, were they the product of religion or the sinister behaviour of man?
Tell me, did religion tell people to throw two bombs on a city causing cancer decades after, or was it man?
Did secular societies cause more violence or was it religion?

Bad shit happens with religion, bad shit happens without religion. I happen to think that religion, and irrational thinking as a whole, is detrimental to the progression of society, but I don't think that if we suddenly eliminated all religion tomorrow the world would magically become a utopia.

QuoteYou consider yourself to be without purpose without reason, you just are here and that's it.

Not true. My purpose is what I make of it. The reason I'm here is because my parents had sex.

QuoteWhat are you offering me?

Huh?

QuoteJoin the club and mock others so my self-esteem will increase?

This site isn't linked to my self-esteem.

QuoteTake a very good at this forum. And compare the section of topics about religions with the other sections.
You'll see that 99% of the people here are atheists, but then again the sub-forum religion is by far one of the largest.

Yeah, so?

QuoteLarger than science. While science is your 'religion'.

That's because most of the topics in the science section are pretty boring, at least to me. And science is not my religion.

QuoteDo you know why Ls? Because deep inside you are terrified that you might be wrong.

Nope, not really. Maybe a small part of me is scared by the notion of going to hell, but a larger part of me is scared by the notion of radiation from Japan coming over and causing serious health concerns. What I concern myself with now is largely philosophy and politics, not religion/God.

QuoteThe only way you can confirm your idea's is by mocking at religion so your beliefs will be more confirmed.

Nope.

QuoteTake a good look at this thread: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6872
What other purpose does it have then mocking and confiming your beliefs?

I didn't post in that thread as I thought it sounded like a boring thing to do.

People of one group will always mock people of another group. Xbox users ridicule PS3 users; vegans ridicule omnivores; Christians ridicule Muslims. As long as it's good fun and it's not taken all too seriously, it's fine.

QuoteIn general; Everywhere on atheist forums is the section about religion the largest.

Makes sense.

QuoteAs you are an 'enlightened' atheist,

I wouldn't call myself that.

QuoteI don't understand why you so spend so much time here wasting on this section (with 5? active theists on this forum).

I don't really go here that often anymore. Lately I've been visiting less.

QuoteDo you want to learn? If so, then why on a forum, go and read books.

False dichotomy.

QuoteDo you see it as humor? I can find better entertainment.

False dichotomy.

QuoteOr are you just about mocking religion?

You do realize that not every single topic in the existence of the religion forum here is all about mocking religion, right?

QuoteI wanted to post this for quite some time. Can you answer?

I think I've given good enough answers. If you want me to elaborate anywhere, I can.

Ls....

I don't see any useful answer in your reply, nor do I understand any of your points....
Can't you post a proper reply instead of nit picking on each of my points...? Or do you see it
as a sport? You want immortality, you think a perfect world is possible without giving proper arguments....
you just 'I disagree'.

On a side note: If you erase religion from the world, you will create a living hell. You have no idea how dangerous, primitive and sinister man really is.
There are many, many people that do not rape/rob/murder people because they are afraid that they will be punished.
A friend of my went to Nepal. He could sleep on the street while his wallet was visible, but no one would dare to touch him.
There they believe in Karma, what you give, you will receive. Take this away and everything will change.
Religion is like a chain for madness, if you release the chains you will unleash hell..you have no idea Ls..

     
@Stevil, many of my friends are exactly like you. They are looking for the truth and raise questions constantly. I often argue with them
in a nice manner. But I was talking about insecure militant atheists who mock religion just to confirm their beliefs.

Quote from: "iSok"Ls, let me explain. I hope I understand the point of atheism by now.

There is no point...atheists just don't believe in a god.  Any points, beliefs, etc that an atheist has are in addition to their having an atheist stance.

QuoteTake a good look at this thread: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6872
What other purpose does it have then mocking and confiming your beliefs?

In general; Everywhere on atheist forums is the section about religion the largest.

Making assumptions about people based on how many types of threads exist on a forum is...well...inaccurate.

A good portion of posts in the religion section are from post and run theists.  Another good portion of them are from actual discussions with theists who stuck around for a bit.  And almost all of the rest of them are from people who either never were religious who have questions about religion or by people who have been hurt by religion and therefore want to make arguments against it.  Very very few of the posts in that area are anything like the one you quoted as an example of LS's behavior (and I'll add that a quick scan didn't show him having participated in that thread nor did most of the regular HAF members).

I think you are still having problems seeing past your preconceptions...it's clouding your vision.

Quote from: "iSok"Ls....

I don't see any useful answer in your reply, nor do I understand any of your points....
Can't you post a proper reply instead of nit picking on each of my points...? Or do you see it
as a sport? You want immortality, you think a perfect world is possible without giving proper arguments....
you just 'I disagree'.

He responded to your post honestly.  If you consider his honest responses to be mockery then that's not his problem.

Quote from: "iSok"Ls....

I don't see any useful answer in your reply, without nor do I understand any of your points....

What's not to understand? All of my answers are straightforward and concise.

QuoteCan't you post a proper reply instead of nit picking on each of my points...?

"Proper reply"? I thought that dissecting posts in order to reply to several points/statements/questions was the proper way of replying. In any case, I find it easier, and it lets me know that I've responded to everything in a post.

QuoteOr do you see it as a sport?

Debating in general is a sport. A useful sport.

QuoteYou want immortality,

Surprisingly, most people I've come across say they don't want immortality. I would have thought the opposite, but, eh.

Quoteyou think a perfect world is possible without giving proper arguments....
you just 'I disagree'.

If you'll look back at your post you'll note that you didn't give any arguments either; you just asserted things. How else am I supposed to reply to claims like those other than "I disagree"?

QuoteOn a side note: If you erase religion from the world, you will create a living hell.

I don't think that will happen. Look at places like Sweden, where atheism is relatively common. Is it a living hell there?

QuoteYou have no idea how dangerous, primitive and sinister man really is.

I like to think I understand that pretty well.

QuoteThere are many, many people that do not rape/rob/murder people because they are afraid that they will be punished.

As far as I'm aware, police and prisons still exist. In any case, it's a bit more complex than "I don't want to get in trouble; therefore, I won't do this".

QuoteA friend of my went to Nepal. He could sleep on the street while his wallet was visible, but no one would dare to touch him.
There they believe in Karma, what you give, you will receive. Take this away and everything will change.

The concept of karma doesn't necessarily have to be religious in nature. It makes sense in a secular perspective.

QuoteReligion is like a chain for madness, if you release the chains you will unleash hell..you have no idea Ls..

So, everyone is on the brink of becoming horrible people who commit all sorts of crimes, and religion is the only thing holding them back? Somehow I doubt that.

     

QuoteBut I was talking about insecure militant atheists who mock religion just to confirm their beliefs.

I think you're talking about me here.

LegendarySandwich, you said:

QuoteNo. That's not the point.

If it is not the point, then what are you talking about? As for me, I was answering this:

Quote from: "DirtyLeo"I was discussing about the purpose of life with a muslim friend of mine. I asked him a question but I didn't get a proper answer.

This life is supposed to be a test or trial. Trial set by an all-knowing and all-powerful god. Now at this point, it all stops making sense . As God is all-knowing, she already knows the result of such a trial. So why run it in the first place?

The emphasis is mine, not DirtyLeo's.  All I'm saying is that the Bible never says that ''Life is a trial''. Never, ever, period. The Bible says that individuals will experience trials* that serve to strengthen a believer's faith and bring him closer to God. That's it...there is nothing more.  I'm also saying that the axiom that ''Life is hard'' is nothing more than popular wisdom. There is nothing biblical about it. Christians, atheists, agnostics and UFO pilots may think that ''Life is a trial'' but that doesn't make it biblical. Get it?

The Bible is Christianity's only source for insight into the mind of God.  If the Bible doesn't say or infer that ''Life is a trial'' then anybody - Christian or other - is wrong if they affirm that it does. That's my point.


(*implicitly, trials are temporary events.)

Quote from: "AreEl"^(look above you)

The point is is that that is your interpretation of the bible. It can have more evidence backing it up than other interpretations and be more rational, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still an opinion.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "AreEl"^(look above you)

The point is is that that is your interpretation of the bible. It can have more evidence backing it up than other interpretations and be more rational, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still an opinion.

You are wrong. Dead wrong. If something isn't in the Bible, it isn't there. If it isn't there, it...isn't there. I can't blame an atheist of being ignorant of the Bible for that goes with the territory; but your apparent inability to reason surprises me!

But, then,  you seem smart enough. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you want to win what you perceive is a debate.

Quote from: "AreEl"You are wrong. Dead wrong. If something isn't in the Bible, it isn't there. If it isn't there, it...isn't there. I can't blame an atheist of being ignorant of the Bible for that goes with the territory; but your apparent inability to reason surprises me!

But, then,  you seem smart enough. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you want to win what you perceive is a debate.

This isn't an issue of whether the Bible says that life is a trial, once again. This is about interpretation. Your interpretation is probably "correct"; however, that does not change the fact that it is not a fact.

Unless you take everything in the Bible completely, 100% literally, ignoring all context and other verses, then you have to have at least some interpretation of what it's saying. This means that there's a possibility you could be wrong, and that other people have other interpretations -- thus, it is opinion.

What happens if there are contradictory things in the bible. Things that are actually in the bible, like, you know, written in the bible. Then what?

Some messed up mind god has.

One thing that's missing from the bible, however is whether god prefers cheddar or swiss cheese.  

"Thou shalt haveth holes in thine cheese and it will be good"

Quote from: "Stevil""Thou shalt haveth holes in thine cheese and it will be good"

And god saw that it was good.

Amen

Quote from: "xSilverPhinx"One thing that's missing from the bible, however is whether god prefers cheddar or swiss cheese.  

He'd go for Swiss wouldn't he, 'cause it's holy.
I'll go hide now.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "xSilverPhinx"One thing that's missing from the bible, however is whether god prefers cheddar or swiss cheese.  lol

I guess it's settled then.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"This isn't an issue of whether the Bible says that life is a trial, once again. This is about interpretation. Your interpretation is probably "correct"; however, that does not change the fact that it is not a fact.

Unless you take everything in the Bible completely, 100% literally, ignoring all context and other verses, then you have to have at least some interpretation of what it's saying. This means that there's a possibility you could be wrong, and that other people have other interpretations -- thus, it is opinion.

I'm not interpreting anything about the Bible in our conversation. I just pointed out that ''Life is a trial'' isn't biblical; actually, what would be biblical is ''Life is a blessing''...but that's another subject. From what I can tell, you seem to give equal credibility to any point of view about what is or is not ''Christian'' wisdom. Using the standard ''That's just your opinion'' anything is equally valid and non-valid.  In case you didn't know, this is one of the defining characteristics of Postmodernism. ''I'm OK, you're OK,''  ''Whatever works for you,'' ''Everything is relative'' ...all spring from the same well:  mysticism. You see things that aren't there and assume things that are not real.

An atheist can't afford to stand on anything but solid ground. You need to work on yourself.

Actually, "life is a trial" is a simple deduction: God created us and put us here. We are given rules to follow to be good Christians/Muslims/whatever. We are promised an afterlife. If this is not a trial, then why the rules? If a believer is not going to be judged by his/her actions, then what is the meaning of living like a believer? Are you saying that I'm not accountable of my actions and God (or your creator of your choice) is not going to judge us against the criteria set in scripture and our eternal life (a its quality) is not going to depend on it? Life may be a "blessing" but it is a blessing if it is lived only according to Christian/Muslim/Jewish values otherwise there would be tolerance in religion (for instance the blessing of being homosexual is not seen as a blessing at all).

Regardless, the question was about God's knowledge of our lives' paths and outcomes. He/she knows about our future decisions so we don't need to be here to prove him/her that we are good or bad because he/she created us in the first place and he/she is all-knowing (I am assuming that he/she is all-knowing).

It's just like the concepts of fate and destiny (or the clash of fate/destiny or freewill). Muslims, for instance, believe in fate and destiny. Qu'ran states:

57:22 - "No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfûz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allâh."

... and according to Sunnah:

“Allah wrote down the decrees of creation fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.”

Quote from: "AreEl"An atheist can't afford to stand on anything but solid ground. You need to work on yourself.

Better stand on solid ground than have your head in the clouds.  

Quote from: "fester30"This is the problem with debating religion.  You don't get the same answer or point of view from two different people.  If God is in a state of timelessness, then he is atemporal.  Didn't another theist tell us that God and heaven are not atemporal on another thread?  You can't ask a question of theists if you want one concensus answer, but it is entertaining to see all the different ideas on what they think the Bible or Qur'an or other religious texts mean.

Can you point me to that thread? (if you remember which one it was). I'd like to read what they said exactly, because I've never actually met a Christian of any denomination who believed that God or anyone in heaven aged, or who didn't believe that God is free from the limitations of time.

Quote from: "Being_Brave"

Quote from: "fester30"This is the problem with debating religion.  You don't get the same answer or point of view from two different people.  If God is in a state of timelessness, then he is atemporal.  Didn't another theist tell us that God and heaven are not atemporal on another thread?  You can't ask a question of theists if you want one concensus answer, but it is entertaining to see all the different ideas on what they think the Bible or Qur'an or other religious texts mean.

Can you point me to that thread? (if you remember which one it was). I'd like to read what they said exactly, because I've never actually met a Christian of any denomination who believed that God or anyone in heaven aged, or who didn't believe that God is free from the limitations of time.

Here is the link http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7164&p=107840&hilit=atemporal#p107840

Here is what AreEl said

Quote from: "AreEl"The Bible doesn't say that heaven and hell are atemporal (without time). If you - theist or atheist - think this is what the Bible says, you are in error. The Bible says that Heaven is eternal, that hell is a created place and will be eternal. Your opinion as to the Bible's truth or falsehood are irrelevant here: my goal has always been to tell you what the Bible really says about these two places, period.

Quote from: "AreEl"Fester,

heaven isn't atemporal. This can be deduced from what the Bible says, period. That ''some Christians'' may believe in atemporality - or other bizarre notions - just tells me that their biblical literacy lacking.

As for talking ''to a thousand different preachers and get a thousand different [explanations about what the Bible says]'' this is an exaggeration but contains a kernel of truth. The best way around this foolishness is to read the book yourself and see what it says. No one will serve you better than yourself.

He said it twice.