Happy Atheist Forum

How exactly is believing in God childish?

Quote from: "Epimetheus"How exactly is believing in God childish?

People use the same childish understanding of Santa Claus and other childish things to explain how they know their version of god is real: It feels right, this old religious book says so, many other people agree with me, because it's scary to not believe in god, if there weren't a god then <insert fallacious statement>, etc... But so far, no rational reasons to accept that there is a god. Does this mean that all religious people are childish? No, having a childish belief in my mind does not make a person childish in total. I would consider myself very childish in that I still do enjoy playing with toys, video games, board games, card games, sports, imagining things and doing all manner of childish things. So don't try the "you sound condescending and insulting" thing when I consider myself more childish than most religious people.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Epimetheus"How exactly is believing in God childish?

People use the same childish understanding of Santa Claus and other childish things to explain how they know their version of god is real: It feels right, this old religious book says so, many other people agree with me, because it's scary to not believe in god, if there weren't a god then <insert fallacious statement>, etc... But so far, no rational reasons to accept that there is a god. Does this mean that all religious people are childish? No, having a childish belief in my mind does not make a person childish in total. I would consider myself very childish in that I still do enjoy playing with toys, video games, board games, card games, sports, imagining things and doing all manner of childish things. So don't try the "you sound condescending and insulting" thing when I consider myself more childish than most religious people.

I in no way implied that you were being condescending or insulting, you only assumed such. I don't care if you consider yourself to be childish, I didn't ask that. I asked why you think a belief in a god is a childish trait.

I split this topic off and moved it to the religion area since laid back lounge isn't a place for debate.  Please keep in mind that Epimetheus is about 20 posts away from being released to post here.

Quote from: "Epimetheus"

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Epimetheus"How exactly is believing in God childish?

People use the same childish understanding of Santa Claus and other childish things to explain how they know their version of god is real: It feels right, this old religious book says so, many other people agree with me, because it's scary to not believe in god, if there weren't a god then <insert fallacious statement>, etc... But so far, no rational reasons to accept that there is a god. Does this mean that all religious people are childish? No, having a childish belief in my mind does not make a person childish in total. I would consider myself very childish in that I still do enjoy playing with toys, video games, board games, card games, sports, imagining things and doing all manner of childish things. So don't try the "you sound condescending and insulting" thing when I consider myself more childish than most religious people.

I in no way implied that you were being condescending or insulting, you only assumed such. I don't care if you consider yourself to be childish, I didn't ask that. I asked why you think a belief in a god is a childish trait.

I think Davin did answer your question though. Essentially, God is nothing more than a security blanket for most, a way to feel like something is in control because the universe is vast, hostile, and completely indifferent to our existence.

Quote from: "Epimetheus"I in no way implied that you were being condescending or insulting, you only assumed such.

I didn't assume nor say that you implied that, I just said that you shouldn't try to.

Quote from: "Epimetheus"I don't care if you consider yourself to be childish, I didn't ask that.

On a public forum I'm not merely responding to you, but responding where many other people can see what I respond with. So I often cover a lot of bases in order to avoid discussing unnecessary points with the person I'm responding to as well as other people. So there will be many times in which I will respond with more than just answering the question. Also, I've had several discussions on this topic, I just thought I'd skip all the usual drama and avoid the common view (that it sounds condescending).

Quote from: "Epimetheus"I asked why you think a belief in a god is a childish trait.

Which I answered, if you wish to discuss my answer, then by all means respond to it.

Hmmm.  I would say God-belief is much more sophisticated than Santa-belief, at least in a serious discussion, but there are some similarities.  Perhaps maybe it isn't childish to believe in a God, but definitely on the more innocent and idealistic side.  And I suppose one has to give a description of what sort of deity they are referring to. Jesus would be a more sophisticated higher power than say Thor, (though the consensus here seems to be that Thor is much cooler and heavy metal and definitely kicks more ass than Jesus)  however the necessity of belief in virgin birth, resurrection and other miraculous magical events in order to be accepted as a believer in most faiths does tend to lend toward a more childish perspective.

And well, I think there is some scripture that refers to childish traits in Christianity anyway.  So my question for you is:  Do you perceive being called childish an insult?

That passage being Mark 10:15.  Since we are in the religion section.

Quote from: "LARA"And well, I think there is some scripture that refers to childish traits in Christianity anyway.  So my question for you is:  Do you perceive being called childish an insult?

Quote from: "Matthew 19:15  NIV"Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Or Mark.  

In this context, I would take it as a compliment.  If one must be as a child to gain salvation/heaven, then by all means, call me a child.  I submit myself to the God that made me and knows me better than I know myself.

However for the philosophers and free thinkers here on HAF, what is the real meaning behind such a statement?  And if your answer is like mine, isn't that the same type of thinking everyone has on life in general?

Quote from: "LARA"Hmmm.  I would say God-belief is much more sophisticated than Santa-belief, at least in a serious discussion, but there are some similarities.  Perhaps maybe it isn't childish to believe in a God, but definitely on the more innocent and idealistic side.  And I suppose one has to give a description of what sort of deity they are referring to. Jesus would be a more sophisticated higher power than say Thor, (though the consensus here seems to be that Thor is much cooler and heavy metal and definitely kicks more ass than Jesus)  however the necessity of belief in virgin birth, resurrection and other miraculous magical events in order to be accepted as a believer in most faiths does tend to lend toward a more childish perspective.

I don't see how sophistication distinguishes a belief in god from the being childish. If we made the belief in Santa Claus more complex (like how the movie The Santa Clause is more sophisticated than just an old man jumping down chimneys to give children either coal or a desired present), would that make the belief in Santa Claus less childish?

Quote from: "LARA"And well, I think there is some scripture that refers to childish traits in Christianity anyway.  So my question for you is:  Do you perceive being called childish an insult?

In and of itself no, I can see how one could use it as an insult as well as how one could use it as a compliment.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "LARA"And well, I think there is some scripture that refers to childish traits in Christianity anyway.  So my question for you is:  Do you perceive being called childish an insult?

Quote from: "Matthew 19:15  NIV"Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

However for the philosophers and free thinkers here on HAF, what is the real meaning behind such a statement?

I would assume it's meant in the same way you'd use it to refer to someone who holds the belief in Santa clause as has been mentioned; an unjustified, often inherited belief, based on essentially, not knowing, or not attempting to find a more rational reason to explain something that you don't quite understand, and instead adopting a belief that has nothing to back it.
I say this in the most practical sense because I know Santa and God do differentiate at some point. But strictly speaking;
1) How did these presents get here? Oh Santa!
2) How did the Universe get here? Oh God!

Both examples, to me at least, exhibit a childish lack of rational inquiry and instead an acceptance of a pre-packaged "ready-to-eat" explanation. Neither claim has anything to support it other than stories and testimony's.
You can find kids in the world right now that will testify to have seen Santa, the same way you can find people who will testify they have experience miracles therefore = GOD.

I'd like to re-iterate again that I realize there are many difference's between the two (Santa and God) but I am simply explaining in the most practical sense why they both exhibit a childish lack of critical thinking among other things.

Quote from: "Epimetheus"How exactly is believing in God childish?

The simple answer I can think of is that people need any explanation to understand the world, even if said explanation is simply a creation of their own mind. Some people need someone to be on their side to justify their position, even if said person is in their head. Children create imaginary friends so they can think about ideas in a way that emulates metacognition - thinking about one's thoughts. Not only that, but God becomes an extension of the ego, like a child justifying behavior from the word of an imaginary friend.

God doesn't like the things the believer doesn't like.

God loves the things the believer loves.

God will smite the believer's enemies.

God will bless the believer if certain conditions are met.

God cares about the believer.

God loves the believer.

Etc.

All these attributes are simply the extension of emotions the person felt towards their parents in childhood, now superimposed on their understanding of the universe.

 :)

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"

Quote from: "Epimetheus"How exactly is believing in God childish?

the biggest mistake ppl make is trying to apply human traits and understanding to god.

I'd say people killing each other over their imaginary friend is a much bigger mistake, as is putting your penis in the toaster.

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"

Quote from: "Epimetheus"How exactly is believing in God childish?

the biggest mistake ppl make is trying to apply human traits and understanding to god.

But that's not what is being done here. This is a discussion about how people believing in god is or is not a childish behaviour of the person. It has nothing to do with the personal perception of what god is like. The god in this case could be any of the 10,000 odd variations, that's not the point, the point is the reaction of the person to their particular 'god'.

Quote from: "DJAkuma"a much bigger mistake, as is putting your penis in the toaster.

what?

.it's irrelavent IMO

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"

Quote from: "Tank"This is a discussion about how people believing in god is or is not a childish behaviour of the person.

a person who behaves childishly would do so w/ or w/o god...it's irrelavent IMO

I see what you mean but I don't agree with it as in this case the OP was specific in answering a point made by Devine which is not in this split off thread. Davine asserted that he felt that belief in god was childish, which implied that not believing in god was a more mature perspective. Another way one could consider the question is that all other things being equal would a more childish/naive person be more likely to believe in god than a more mature/sceptical one?

Not as much childish as pointless and foolish from my personal perspective.

There are far better causes to join oneself to in order to satisfy the need some people have to belong to something greater than themselves and there are far more worthy things to put one's trust into than gods.

Belief in god isn't so much childish as it is illogical or ignorant. If you know the science behind the origins of the Universe and want to believe in god regardless of it, fine. But don't attempt to impose on someone else's rights because you think your god said what they're doing is wrong.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"

Quote from: "Tank"This is a discussion about how people believing in god is or is not a childish behaviour of the person.

a person who behaves childishly would do so w/ or w/o god...it's irrelavent IMO

I see what you mean but I don't agree with it as in this case the OP was specific in answering a point made by Devine which is not in this split off thread. Davine asserted that he felt that belief in god was childish, which implied that not believing in god was a more mature perspective. Another way one could consider the question is that all other things being equal would a more childish/naive person be more likely to believe in god than a more mature/sceptical one?

Started Here (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6913#p105381)

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "ForTheLoveOfAll"

Quote from: "Davin""When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." -- 1 Cor 13:11

Hence I put aside belief in a cosmic granddaddy and talking snakes.

That is one reason why I like the verse.

Then the question: "How exactly is believing in God childish?"

I think summaries work better when you're more accurate. You'll notice I made no assertion about belief in god being childish, but merely quoted a verse from the bible. My response to ForTheLoveOfAll was more about how as my ability to understand and think matured, the fewer things I believed until I no longer believed in anything.

Quote from: "JoeBobSmith"

Quote from: "DJAkuma"a much bigger mistake, as is putting your penis in the toaster.

what?

In saying something is a mistake implies a consequence for the error made, a big mistake having more severe consequences. Thus, attributing human qualities to a fictional being would have no real consequences so even if its in error it's still not a "big mistake" in the same way putting your penis into a toaster which would have measurable and severe consequences.

I think that religious belief certainly uses and builds on childish traits and tendencies.

Children are naturally dualistic (mind/brain), and project their internal dialogue onto external things (imaginary friends).

They believe things exist for a particular reason such as grass exists so that animals can eat it, the sky is blue so that is can be aesthetically pleasant to our eyes, trees exist so that some animals can scratch their backs on them, the Earth and everything in it was put here for us...that sort of thinking. Not to mention the parental value of their gods, security blankets, not wanting to take mature responsibility for actions, and basically thinking they're the centre of the universe.

Children also don't question authority or "knowledge from above" and put their trust in those with more "wisdom" and life experience - something that's well explained evolutionarily. We all do that obviously, but a free thinker doesn't do it on the basis of blind faith. Some religious seem to feel a childish need for guidance.

Well...after modern science has debunked almost everything in history and followers of god still stick to their guns. Surely you can't believe the science is wrong. So what if 98 percent of scientists are atheist. They have an answer to most everything in life, and you cling to your ideas from the bronze age. ...

That post of mine probably sucked...

Quote from: "JuggernautJon"Well...after modern science has debunked almost everything in history and followers of god still stick to their guns. Surely you can't believe the science is wrong. So what if 98 percent of scientists are atheist. They have an answer to most everything in life, and you cling to your ideas from the bronze age. ...

That post of mine probably sucked...

I think it's the other way round actually. Theists act as if they have the answer to life's deepest questions.