Happy Atheist Forum

I'm a high school freshman who is very confused concerning religion.  I have an odd and long story to tell.

I grew up in a non-religious household, my parents are both casual Christians.  The extent of my religious upbringing was my culture and a few childrens' bibles.

When I was 13 years old, I was curious to learn what the bible was all about.  We did not own a real bible at our house, so I read the longest illustrated one that I could find.  

When I had finished reading, I didn't have doubts concerning silly stories like Adam and Eve or a flood, oddly enough.  I was scared that my friends and family were going to hell.  I lived in a multi-cultural area where not every one was a Christian, so my best friends at the time were naturally not Christian.

Anyway, I read online concerning hell.  What was it, who goes there.  I found a site called Yahoo Answers and read what the people on there had to say.  It seemed like whoever didn't accept Jesus and worship him was going to burn forever.

Being a naive 13 year old reading the answers of zealots and sociopaths really got me anxious.  I didn't want everyone I knew to go to hell, how could I be happy in heaven knowing that Mom and Dad were crying their eyes out choking on smoke?  

This experience also got a seed of guilt planted into my head.  We're all sinners, we all fall short in the eyes of God, we all deserve hell.  It seemed as though every thing I did was a sin to feel guilty about.  If I get mad, I sinned.  If I masturbated, that was a sin.  If I
listened to a dirty rock song, it was a sin.  In fact, life without sin seemed kind of boring.

Naturally, that was one of the first questions I asked.  In response, I had the fundamentalists on a tirade about how man rejects God in order to sin and that what I was asking was evil (seed planted).

Anyway, I really didn't want this God to exist.  A god who I had to live a half-life for, a hell for my loved ones.

I was miserable, I asked everyone for answers.  I asked my parents if they thought they were going to hell, if I was going to hell.  Being CCs with a bit of pseudo-philosophy in them, they both told me that I should be a good person and that would be fine.

I prayed to God and Jesus every night to forgive me of my sins and show me a sign.  I got no signs.

Anyway, until that point, I had actually been a bit afraid of the atheists.  Many of internet atheists had "mean" things to say about religion.  They were abrasive toward me in the questions I asked and their constant questioning reminded me of the snake in the garden (thus making me afraid of them).

I'd always ignore them until one day I went on to a site called "God is Imaginary".  It made perfect sense.  I gladly felt justified in calling myself an atheist.  Although in reality, I was an ambivalent Christian in denial.  

During that time, I moved to the Bible Belt where religion had much more influence.  Due to my negative experience with religion, I was afraid of it.  I felt uneasy near churches or crosses and couldn't bear to read a Bible verse, I hid from it.

What I realized then was that I had Pure O OCD.  This religion thing which took months to play out was my first episode.

I had unrelated episodes with OCD for a year and a half.

Religious thoughts popped into my head once again and I worried over them?  What if God was real?  What if I was denying him?

Eventually, I overcame my fear of religion and started to look into it.  I read just a bit of the Bible and decided that it was dookie.

The thoughts kept coming back though, and stronger?

You KNOW that God exists.  

So, I looked into science and history a bit.  After doing a bit of research, I decided that Jesus was a myth and that I had nothing to worry about.

But my OCD came back psychotically strong with paranoid and delusional thoughts.

What if Satan planted the dinosaur fossils?  What if Satan created modern history?  What if everyone was possessed by Satan?  

Today, I come confused.  The God belief is still not out of my head.  I was not reasoned into it.  

I'd take modern history and science and use it to disprove God, but my paranoid religiously damaged mind says that it was Satan who created those.

The main reason why I'm stuck with this religion thing is not because I want their to be a God, but because I'm VERY afraid of hell.  Even if someone does a scientific refutation, I'll just think, God is magic.

I know there is no God in my heart of hearts, but I am still very afraid of him.  

When I question his existence, my mind thinks "don't ask questions" or "don't challenge God".  Its as though I am afraid to truly question in fear of hell fire.  Everytime I hear religion refuted, I'll wonder if Satan some how did it to lead me astray.  I've started to feel uncomfortable around atheists again, for whatever reason.

I read stuff like the God delusion, but it goes over my head for whatever reason, maybe my rational brain is not strong enough to handle it fully.

I've finally started morally examining the Bible and developing a bit of a scientific mind, and I must say, the God of the Bible is strange.  He'll be loving in one verse and kill children in the next (I notice my mind telling me not to say bad things about god, I don't "really" mean them).  I also have no idea how some of the tall tales of the Bible are possible.  They sound like bullshit to me.

I'm very confused and worried.  It is hard to deconvert.  Double hard when you have OCD telling you its the Devil or you are wrong no matter what you do.  Any advice, I'd like to be free of religion.  The guilt, anxiety, mental imprisonment, fear, and  depression have to go.

Also, the apologists confuse me.  I'll notice a contradiction in the Bible and they'll tell me that "this means this" or that "it was a mistranslation".  Are there any counter sites to CARM or Tektonics to see if they are telling the truth?

A few questions

Should I feel bad about coming towards atheism in the wrong way?  My original motives were actually because I didn't want to be subject to petty rules and scare tactics of a deity or worry about hell.  I've actually logically concluded however now that atheism makes some sense for something other than rebelling against God (a christian stereotype)

How do I strengthen my rational mind?

How old were you when you first questioned your beliefs?  Why?  How long did it take to truly deconvert?

Iron Chariots (http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page) is a very good site I've found through the Atheist Experience (http://www.atheist-experience.com/), it was started by Matt Dillahunty  and Russell Glasser to provide a wiki that shows how the apologetic arguments are flawed.

A bit about Matt Dillahunty (http://www.atheist-experience.com/people/matt_dillahunty/) might help a little bit.

There are very nice people to discuss things with, I myself was a Christian so I hold no malice or preconceived judgments towards those who are or were religious. This is the most polite forum I've come across in regards to discussing things between theists and atheists (as well as theists and other theists and atheists and other atheists). Even I have slipped up into not being very nice, however the mods respond very very well to the report button. I hope you find the time to start a thread about the questions and/or concerns you have, because I feel awkward discussing it in an introduction thread.

Welcome to the forums.

Thank you.  

It truly does feel like the fear of hell is one of the only things keeping me from being liberated.  

Many of the atheists I come across online are quite abrasive.  If they behave this way toward a fundie, I really don't mind, but they seem vitrolic.

I'm glad to find an environment of kinder skeptics.

Quote from: "Questioning"How old were you when you first questioned your beliefs? Why? How long did it take to truly deconvert?

There's several threads on here which go in to detail regarding people's "deconversions" or their path towards atheism. It's a tough road that you are on, but whichever side of the fence ends up being right for you will most likely be the one on which you settle (or at least I hope that for you and you aren't swayed unfairly one way or the other).

Good luck to you, sir.

And welcome to the forum.  

I've been looking into what the religious side has to say to me.  I've asked them a few questions and the best I got was "You sound very angry and sad, you need Jesus".

I'll hear arguments like "the universe is so wonderful, do you think we just GOT here or even "look at that banana".  Its like I have to force myself to think "Wait but..."  I know that these arguments are bullshit, but part of my mind still believes them.

How do I go about strengthening my rational mind?

Quote from: "Questioning"How do I go about strengthening my rational mind?

There's lots of resources on YouTube that could help out. Two very good channels are QualiaSoup and ZJemptv. Watching them will really help to strengthen your arguments in debate, and help you feel surer of your own views. They did for me anyway  

HI Q

May I suggest you read this thread viewtopic.php?p=74241#p74241 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=74241#p74241)

It may help clarify some of your thoughts.

Welcome to Happy Atheists.

Regards
Chris

Quote from: "Questioning"Thank you.  

It truly does feel like the fear of hell is one of the only things keeping me from being liberated.  

Many of the atheists I come across online are quite abrasive.  If they behave this way toward a fundie, I really don't mind, but they seem vitrolic.

I'm glad to find an environment of kinder skeptics.

I think a lot of atheists can sometimes feel quite aggrieved with religion, especially if they've managed to eventually escape the confines of it. I've spoken to people before who feel like the first thirty years of their lives were robbed from them. It must be natural to harbour resentment in a situation such as that.

Of course, other atheists can be incredibly rude. We've had our fair share of them here.

I guess the road to liberation for you may be a long one, but certainly not insurmountable. There are some highly skilled and motivated members of this forum who will do everything they can to ease your transition. If you stick around, I think you'll become increasingly impressed with the average level of maturity on display.

Whitney has done a great job with HAF.

Welcome, and good luck, Questioning.

I've looked at quite a bit of the evidence against God.  If I were thinking purely logically, I'd not be a Christian.

The problem is that there still is a part of my mind that can't quite do it.  It still defaults to religious belief, like Christianity is a "default" setting in my mind.  I can't bring myself to truly let it sink in that God DOES NOT EXIST.  Even reading the arguments from the God Delusion and History, I still don't have it sink in fully.

The one thing that is stopping me from just accepting the evidence is the fear of hell.  Atheist Experience covers it nicely, as does DarkMatter2525, but I still wonder, what if God really is testing people and what if God changes physical laws to up the suffering.

Part of me still clings on to the fact that God is good.  The Logical part of my mind tells me that genocide is BAD, but the religious part of my mind told me that "I don't have the right to question God" or "God is good, don't think otherwise or else..."  

Its confusing really.

Its kind of like a belief in Santa.  I actually latched on to a belief in Santa simply because of instinct until I was actually told that Santa did not exist.  Even after questioning it, I couldn't make up my mind.

My big question here is, how do I go about making up my mind and being just about sure that the Judeo Christian God isn't real.  It is easy to think that it is real out of "faith", but it is a lot harder for some to truly understand that he is NOT real.

Q

Being an innate atheist, I have never believed that god was real, I have difficulty understanding your worries. I'm not minimising them as they are apparently real to you, but I have great difficulty 'standing in your shoes' as it were. There are definitely people who have been deep seated believers who have come to terms with the fact that god does not exist. Velma being one of them. She believed for the the first 35 years of her life. She would go to abortion clinics and pray in the car parks on gravel until her knees bled. She was absolutly as committed as one could be that God existed and she had a personal relationship with 'Him' and totally knew He existed. She didn't shrug off such feelings overnight, she doubted for years and moved from church to church trying to find the 'Truth'.

Breaking an addiction to god by going cold turkey is not going to be easy and it's not going to be quick. There isn't a convenient switch in your head that you can use to turn off your belief, it's part of you and to some extent always will be. So don't be too hard on yourself as you shed your mythology. It'll take time and some days will be better than others. But from what Velma and others have told me shedding superstition is a worthwhile thing to do. It just may take a little while to do it.

Regards
Chris

Hello and welcome

As an atheist, I lack a belief in gods. In essence that is about as far as atheism goes. We are not against any religion in particular, we are not against gods. There are many god theories out there, about 10,000 or so I have been told. Your are simply atheistic by 0.01% more than any theist.

Having questions and looking for answers is a powerful and healthy hobby, but best done with your eyes open and your mind clear.

QuoteThe problem is that there still is a part of my mind that can't quite do it. It still defaults to religious belief, like Christianity is a "default" setting in my mind. I can't bring myself to truly let it sink in that God DOES NOT EXIST. Even reading the arguments from the God Delusion and History, I still don't have it sink in fully.

That's because Christianity has brainwashed you against non-believers. Just like any business/politician tries to do against it's/his/her competitors. Think about it. Religion is the most successful BUSINESS the world has ever seen. If Microsoft had done half the things Christianity has done, no one would ever think about using a different operating system than Windows. Apple would simply be the Jews of the computer world.

But I digress.

Bonvenon al la Forumo!
[spoiler:5hfwe7u6]Welcome to the Forum![/spoiler:5hfwe7u6]

Quote from: "Questioning"My big question here is, how do I go about making up my mind and being just about sure that the Judeo Christian God isn't real.  It is easy to think that it is real out of "faith", but it is a lot harder for some to truly understand that he is NOT real.

It's not a race, so take your time.  Whatever you end up deciding you want to be comfortable in your belief or lack thereof and these things can take time when someone has been indoctrinated.  I think that even if you end up deciding you want to be a Christian (for reasons that would be beyond me) that you'll have to get past the indoctrination in order to feel solid in your beliefs because you already know the indoctrination is there.

I was willing to question because it started as a means to become stronger in my belief and later because I knew I had to in order to ever be 'spritually' comfortable...I believed that if there were a god that the god would welcome such questioning and would readily accept anyone who strayed away via questioning yet later returned (I had assumed I would return to belief even though that is obviously not what happened) I got past the idea of hell when I realized there was no theological reason to view it as anything more than separation from god (meaning ceasing to exist).  It's amazing how much more free you are to investigate beliefs when you aren't afraid...it's also amazing how fear can make our minds hold onto irrational beliefs.

I'm paraphrasing something here, but hasn't it occured to you that any God might actually prefer that you stand on your intellectual conclusions rather than practicing blind faith? If a god wanted you to believe in it, it would have provided at least some evidence for its existence, would it not? If there is a god, it probably doesn't want you to know anything about it... not yet, at least. The idea of a "test of faith" is preposterous.

Anyway, here's a video that kind of goes along with this idea:
[youtube:f243s8ss]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU[/youtube:f243s8ss]

There was actually a period of a couple months where my mind went full fundamentalist.  I fell victim to "fundylogic".  Fundylogic, in a nutshell, is thinking inside of one box (Christianity), never escaping it.  You're stuck and that box and never consider arguments from the other boxes.

You are told to put away your critical thinking.  Asking questions is Satan trying to mislead you.  Science is Satan.  History is Satan.  The Atheists (and Liberal Christians for that matter) are evil people trying to get you sent to hell.  Questioning your beliefs is exactly how you play into your hands.  Don't even talk to them!  Ignore them!  Stay away!

Now, I know this sounds stupid, but barely being a teenager then, it left long lasting scars which gave birth to my anxiety disorder.  It made me depressed, guilty, and paranoid.  Satan just waiting to strike.  

The scars are slowly fading, though.

Has anyone else ever been in this situation?  Ignorance is strength and fear is love.  I eventually switched off it as I realized that it was the perfect cult mechanism.

Quote from: "Questioning"There was actually a period of a couple months where my mind went full fundamentalist.  I fell victim to "fundylogic".  Fundylogic, in a nutshell, is thinking inside of one box (Christianity), never escaping it.  You're stuck and that box and never consider arguments from the other boxes.

You are told to put away your critical thinking.  Asking questions is Satan trying to mislead you.  Science is Satan.  History is Satan.  The Atheists (and Liberal Christians for that matter) are evil people trying to get you sent to hell.  Questioning your beliefs is exactly how you play into your hands.  Don't even talk to them!  Ignore them!  Stay away!

Now, I know this sounds stupid, but barely being a teenager then, it left long lasting scars which gave birth to my anxiety disorder.  It made me depressed, guilty, and paranoid.  Satan just waiting to strike.  

The scars are slowly fading, though.

Has anyone else ever been in this situation?  Ignorance is strength and fear is love.  I eventually switched off it as I realized that it was the perfect cult mechanism.

That's exactly what it is, a cult mechanism.  If you aren't thinking, then you aren't asking questions.  If you aren't asking questions, then you aren't seeing their teachings for the absolute BS that they are.  However, cut yourself some slack - you did not learn to think that way overnight and it will take time to unlearn it.  

I was a fundamentalist christian for years, just as Tank described.  It was not easy to leave.  It was not easy to relearn to think and question.  You will have to work at it.  I had to work at it.  Don't be too ashamed to ask for help - the wounds this kind of poisonous religion can leave run deep and take some work to heal.  You may find it helpful to find a group in your area or check online for other local resources.  It is amazing helpful and supportive such a group can be.  Find friends who accept you for who you are - that can go a long way towards helping you heal.  Tank was, and is, one such person for me and there have been others.

Some books and magazines that helped me:

The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan
Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time by Michael Shermer
Climbing Mount Improbable by Richard Dawkins
Skeptic Magazine
Skeptical Inquiry magazine
Free Inquiry magazine

You may also like Daniel Dennett's Breaking the Spell and Sam Harris's The End of Faith.

Welcome!

Wow, all I can say is that I hope you can pull yourself out of that fundylogic soon and as other have put it, see those mechanisms for what they really are.

I don't think I have anything of value to offer, as I'm yet another atheist who's never experienced that sort of programming, but I do think that gaining knowledge and other alternate experiences does go a long way. Read up on control mechanisms, cult psychology, brainwashing techniques, beliefs, cognitive biases and even up on other spiritual and religious beliefs. You shouldn't feel like you have to focus on giving up on your belief in a god.  

Learn to ask the questions they don't want you to ask, and don't be afraid of them. The bible disproves its own version of god: a god simply cannot be omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent and send people to hell, just as a thing can't both exist and not exist. Once you eventually see past the holes in fundie arguments hopefully you won't feel held back by them.

I recommend reading Machiavelli's "The Prince" too and see what his representation of what power evolved to become back in his day was like. If you do, hopefully you'll see parallels.

I would strongly recommend, just as you have given time to the study of religion, and conversely the study of non religion. Do the same for science. Atheism is not just about rejecting the idea of god, it goes hand in hand with a solid understanding of the natural world and the evolutionary mechanics that go into it. You see facts, or laws in science are established through a very defined process and no one scientist can conclude anything. In order for something to be scientifically proven, multiple individuals, often from very diverse scientific practices have to converge on the same result.  Or they all have to prove the same thing in different ways. Science is always getting better and more accurate, incorrect conclusions are constantly being corrected. So a solid understanding of the scientific principles of existence is a great place to start. Erase “god’ or any god concept from your mind while you are doing this study, just investigate with an open mind as see if the principles of expanding universe, mass , gravity, chemistry, biology and evolution make sense to you.

Hi

My husband and I were both raised Catholic and we were both pretty devout believers at certain points in our lives - I even got a cross tattoo when I was a teenager. My experience with the church was mostly positive (the priests that I was exposed to were genuinely nice people, I have to say), but my husband, who was raised in a different part of the country,  was badgered with heavy loads of "Catholic guilt". For a long time he was very confused, then angry (when I met him, he was very "anti-religion"), but he's now found peace and he is one of the kindest, happiest people that I know.

So, either way, it'll come. Give yourself some time. I found that there was a window of a few years where I KNEW I didn't believe in god, but I couldn't help FEELING like I did from time to time. With time and distance the fear just sort of faded away. And now my husband and I are both very happy, guilt-free and 100% non-religious.

Something that may help is to define your understanding of hell and the devil. As you have stated it is from the christian belief system, but where did this idea of hell come from? It wasn't present in the old testament, and the fallen angels reside on earth not in hell.

The new testaments accounts of hell vary and all reference the ancient greek underworld of hades and tartarus (in the original versions), this is where it becomes confusing - hades is referenced in the new testament as the understanding of hell, but in the greek mythology hades was good and bad with different levels, then those that had been judged as the worst of the worst were sent to a place called tartarus that was below and separate from hades. In the new testament (II Peter 2:4) this tartarus (tartaro) is where the fallen angles were incarcerated with no reference to the soles of humans going there in the afterlife. the book of revelation is conflicting against what is said earlier and is probably where the idea of satan residing in hell comes from.

The definition of the devil/satan/lucifer, is again conflicting in the new testament, it is referenced as a fallen angel that used the serpent to tempt eve, a fallen angel that lead the rebellion against god, the serpent itself, and finally the name of human sin and wickedness. However the fallen angels that tempted eve and lead the rebellion were different angels, the angel Gadrel is suppose to have tempted eve, and the angel Azaz is the angel that was defiant towards god.

There is a lot to look at on the subject in the bible alone never mind what all the different sects of christianity believe on this area. Also look at what other religions have to say as they are all totally different.

Religious OCD is one of the more common manifestations of OCD.I suffered from it when I was younger; much of what you described sounded familiar.

About your OCD

1) Are you seeing anyone?
2) Are you on medication?
3) Have you developed coping mechanisms for when these obsessive thoughts occur?

It seems to me like you're fighting two battles: OCD makes everything -- even the simple things -- spiral wickedly out of control and feel much larger than they are. Thus when you start dealing with ideas such as salvation, damnation, death, life, God, Satan, etc., etc., your OCD goes into overdrive.

Believe me. I've been there. It took me a long time to come to peace with it, but being that I have a somewhat unique perspective on this issue, I'd like to help in whatever way I can. The first part is seeking help and understanding your thoughts ARE NOT YOU.

Welcome to HAF!

I hope this undertaking is becoming easier for you. I myself had a hard time thinking critically and searching for answers mainly because the people I was around would condemn it. Hopefully you will find some answers and some comfort here.

Quote from: "hollyda"1) Are you seeing anyone?
2) Are you on medication?
3) Have you developed coping mechanisms for when these obsessive thoughts occur?

It seems to me like you're fighting two battles: OCD makes everything -- even the simple things -- spiral wickedly out of control and feel much larger than they are. Thus when you start dealing with ideas such as salvation, damnation, death, life, God, Satan, etc., etc., your OCD goes into overdrive.

Believe me. I've been there. It took me a long time to come to peace with it, but being that I have a somewhat unique perspective on this issue, I'd like to help in whatever way I can. The first part is seeking help and understanding your thoughts ARE NOT YOU.

I think this is probably very good advice.

After saying that, I can mention some things which have been helpful to me.

1) There is a heavy, great, deep, power and beauty in morality. The more I developed my morality, the more I became willing to rebel against an evil God. I was not able to relinquish my fear of hell until I was prepared to serve the Good and Truth before anything else. I was finally able to give a sort of goodbye prayer, along the lines of "if you are truly Good and Truth, I will serve you. If not, you can bloody well fuck off and send me to hell for eternity. I'll take that over chickenshit evil power. I do not serve power."

Some writings which helped me develop my morality:
Einstein's The World as I See It (http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/essay.htm)
Bertrand Russell's "A Free Man's Worship (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/russell1.htm)"
Carl Sagan's "Billions and Billions"
Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World"
Plato's "Apology" (http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/apology.html)
The first eight or so books from this collection of Plato (http://www.amazon.com/Plato-Complete-Works/dp/0872203492/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302882719&sr=1-3), plus the symposium and republic.

More as well, but those are pretty significant for me.

2) Study the lives and works of strong moral (primarily non-theistic) people. Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, Socrates, Einstein, Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Thomas Paine, Percey Shelley, Voltaire, Kurt Vonnegut, Mark Twain, for examples. There is an intense moral beauty and power emanating from moral people who do not believe they will be rewarded or will live forever, which cannot be replicated on the theistic side. When you've studied a strong moral character and their works, non-theist, especially one who has stared death in the face in the name of what is right, long enough, you will have an experience of a sensation of brotherhood, love, and awe which your fear of hell will be laughable standing next to. Also the recognition of a sort of debt you have to the greatness of our ancestors, to be able to live as we live, is humbling and awe-inspiring in a very good way.

3) Study the natural sciences. The beauty and awe which exists here in this life, in this world, is so remarkable, so better than what Christianity offers. The more understanding of the world and cosmos you obtain, the more grateful you will become to be a part of it, the more transcendent and aesthetic existence in reality will seem, and the more laughable Christianity and hell will be compared to what you have. Some recommendations:
Carl Sagan's books recommended above, and probably anything he wrote.
Carl Sagan's cosmos series
Neil Degrasse Tyson's book "Origins: 14 billion years of cosmic evolution"
Planet Earth series
"The Universe" series
Richard Feynman's "Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman"
Richard Feynman's "What do You Care What Other People Think?"
Anything else written by a scientist for a general audience with good reviews.

I'm sure you can find many other very beautiful examples of these sorts of directions here.