Happy Atheist Forum

Just had a longggggg argument on a forum with an agnostic about whether or not atheism is a positive claim. He continued to insist that that I need evidence to back being an Atheist, and that as an Agnostic he's being honest about not being absolutely certain about either claim. I tried to explain to him Atheists are not absolutely certain that God doesn't exist, and that certainty is irrelevant to whether or not you BELIEVE God exists. Getting tired of this agnostic crap..Sorry if I offended any agnostics here

A lot of agnostics and believers alike hold to the idea that agnosticism is a "middle ground" between theism and atheism.

It isn't.

Hello, Tokage.  I'm not sure if you've encountered Dawkins' "spectrum of probabilities" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probability) regarding the existence of a deity.  The agnostic you've been discussing this with might very well dismiss it, but it's actually a reasonable way to differentiate between various positions on the question of the existence or non-existence of a deity.  As you will note, 6 and 7 are atheist positions, but only "strong atheism" is a position making a positive claim.

Quote1.00: Strong theist. 100 percent possibility of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, 'I do not believe, I know.'

2.00: Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist. 'I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there

3.00: Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. 'I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.'

4.00: Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. 'God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.'

5.00: Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. 'I don't know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be sceptical.'

6.00: Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

7:00: Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung 'knows' there is one.'

Your interlocutor reminds me a bit of a "militant agnostic" who was a member here for a while, who called himself "Aedus."

I'd be a 6 on that scale.

Spaghetti Monster

Oooo, I like that scale. Put's things into perspective better. I'm probably a 5. My mom is probably a 6. And my dad is probably around -1.

... never really liked that scale.

It confuses "belief" with "knowledge".

I may believe 100% that there is a god, yet still claim no knowledge of god.

Agnostic is a position of knowledge, not belief...

(where's that square diagram when I need it - Ah! here it is...)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fscienceblogs.com%2Fevolvingthoughts%2Fatheist_chart.gif&hash=a25aaa9247ca50b7f5ae2b6714772d9698a62319)

Notice how the chart is two-dimensional.  The scale is one-dimensional, and cannot fully represent the chart fully...

Tokage, I completely agree with you. Agnostics can be very frustrating to deal with. The ones that I have come across seem to think they are superior to atheists. They seem to believe they are more intelligent. They see us atheists as ignorant for completely denying the existence of a God. They believe that no one possesses enough evidence to come to that conclusion. There is a serious lack of evidence to support the existence of a God. That's why I claim to be an atheist. The "evidence" I go on is all the years of studying how absurd religion is. I am convinced that the man made religions are false. And to the existence of a god beyond that? There is no evidence whatsoever that would compel me to believe in a God. None. That's what atheism is all about. I choose not to believe in a god without evidence. It's just that simple.

Ah, you "strong" atheists are just being grumpy! Come on, lighten up  :P

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Funfollowingjesus.com%2Ffiles%2F2010%2F10%2FSpiritual-Safety.jpg&hash=91b22531acb6d62bb204c3c38add974d5b777509)

My favorite part of that image is when it says "very advanced witnessing techniques are needed for these grouches."

As in, logic, rationality, and well-reasoned arguments?  

Yeah I'm still trying to figure out what "crotchety" means.

Quote from: "terranus"Ah, you "strong" atheists are just being grumpy! Come on, lighten up  :P

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Funfollowingjesus.com%2Ffiles%2F2010%2F10%2FSpiritual-Safety.jpg&hash=91b22531acb6d62bb204c3c38add974d5b777509)

Good god, tell me this picture is just a joke and not something some Christian group put out as serious...?

Some Christian group did...can't remember where it came from exactly...but yeah, it's a legit flyer.

Quote from: "terranus"Some Christian group did...can't remember where it came from exactly...but yeah, it's a legit flyer.

Actually, it's not. It came from a pretty convincing Christian satire site. (http://objectiveministries.org/)

Minecraft is actually a Christian game!! (http://objectiveministries.org/zounds/review-minecraft.html) (Which is funny because I'm playing that game right now.)

Other game "reviews". (http://objectiveministries.org/zounds/gaming.html)

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Minecraft is actually a Christian game!! (http://objectiveministries.org/zounds/review-minecraft.html) (Which is funny because I'm playing that game right now.)

20 Europe  monies?!? I think I'll just buy a used 360 game.

Quote from: "Tokage"Just had a longggggg argument on a forum with an agnostic about whether or not atheism is a positive claim. He continued to insist that that I need evidence to back being an Atheist, and that as an Agnostic he's being honest about not being absolutely certain about either claim. I tried to explain to him Atheists are not absolutely certain that God doesn't exist, and that certainty is irrelevant to whether or not you BELIEVE God exists. Getting tired of this agnostic crap..Sorry if I offended any agnostics here

I am 100% certain that God does not exist. I really don't see why any atheist need claim "I can't be certain" because you can be. I am. So there you go.

I can be certain, because there is no need for god, no reason for god and no evidence for god.

Clearly, he does not exist. I'm not about to try and prove the non existence of something that does not exist - I don't need to if you really think about it, I'll leave the proving to the believers of this funky story, safe in the knowledge that I'm right.

Quotesafe in the knowledge that I'm right.

You have ironically pegged the source of religious fanaticism.

Quote from: "dgmort19"

Quotesafe in the knowledge that I'm right.

You have ironically pegged the source of religious fanaticism.

Yep, in fact, the source of all fanaticism. Should've named the topic, "I'm tired of arguing with people who think they have ultimate truth."

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "dgmort19"

Quotesafe in the knowledge that I'm right.

You have ironically pegged the source of religious fanaticism.

Yep, in fact, the source of all fanaticism. Should've named the topic, "I'm tired of arguing with people who think they have ultimate truth."

I wont believe in ultimate truth untill we have a Theory of Everything.

Quote from: "AverageJoe"

Quote from: "Tokage"Just had a longggggg argument on a forum with an agnostic about whether or not atheism is a positive claim. He continued to insist that that I need evidence to back being an Atheist, and that as an Agnostic he's being honest about not being absolutely certain about either claim. I tried to explain to him Atheists are not absolutely certain that God doesn't exist, and that certainty is irrelevant to whether or not you BELIEVE God exists. Getting tired of this agnostic crap..Sorry if I offended any agnostics here

I am 100% certain that God does not exist. I really don't see why any atheist need claim "I can't be certain" because you can be. I am. So there you go.

I can be certain, because there is no need for god, no reason for god and no evidence for god.

Clearly, he does not exist. I'm not about to try and prove the non existence of something that does not exist - I don't need to if you really think about it, I'll leave the proving to the believers of this funky story, safe in the knowledge that I'm right.

Actually you're not. By definition you cannot be 100% certain. You yourself, can be extremely certain (as am I and many others) that he doesn't exist. Neither I nor you will ever actually be able to claim we are 100% certain he doesn't. It just isn't possible.
We can apply our useful knowledge of the evidence put forward for the God claim and say:
1) It's justified not to believe
2) Were pretty damn sure he doesn't exist, and were not going to live our lives considering him any more factual than we do leprechauns.

I like the bluntness and simplicity of saying "God doesn't exist". It's concise -- it doesn't mess around, it gets straight to the point. It's the same thing as saying that unicorns don't exist. Of course, you should be able to clarify that you realize there's a chance you may be wrong and some type of god exists.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I like the bluntness and simplicity of saying "God doesn't exist". It's concise -- it doesn't mess around, it gets straight to the point. It's the same thing as saying that unicorns don't exist. Of course, you should be able to clarify that you realize there's a chance you may be wrong and some type of god exists.

You sir, have won!

This is exactly what I tell people when they ask. My position is that God doesn't exist, and that's what I will tell people. Is there a chance A God doesn't exist? Sure, an extremely low chance depending on which God you're talking about. For example, I consider the exist of Dragons to be much more likely than the existence of a Theistic God.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I like the bluntness and simplicity of saying "God doesn't exist". It's concise -- it doesn't mess around, it gets straight to the point. It's the same thing as saying that unicorns don't exist. Of course, you should be able to clarify that you realize there's a chance you may be wrong and some type of god exists.

^ This.

QuoteI wont believe in ultimate truth untill we have a Theory of Everything.

So you're saying you don't believe in absolute truths?

Quote from: "terranus"

QuoteI wont believe in ultimate truth untill we have a Theory of Everything.

So you're saying you don't believe in absolute truths?

I believe in progression, that every time we find something that we think is true, we tend to find something else that shows the previous truth was either flawed or totally wrong. I believe in absolute truth to the degree that it is only truth for the time being.

Quote from: "Tokage"Actually you're not. By definition you cannot be 100% certain. You yourself, can be extremely certain (as am I and many others) that he doesn't exist. Neither I nor you will ever actually be able to claim we are 100% certain he doesn't.

I'm 100% certain he doesn't exist.

QuoteIt just isn't possible.

It is possible.

I'm 100% certain that Santa does not exist, I'm 100% certain that God doesn't exist. They are one and the same, and 100% non existent. I'm not interested in pedantically arguing that "by definition" nobody can be 100% certain, because you can say that nobody can be 100% certain that Santa does not exist either - but of course to say that would be utter rubbish. Can anybody see what I'm getting at here, or maybe I'm the only one? Us grown ups readily accept non existence of Fairies and Santa yet say we think God doesn't exist BUT we "can't be certain". What are people frightened of?

QuoteWe can apply our useful knowledge of the evidence put forward for the God claim and say:
1) It's justified not to believe
2) Were pretty damn sure he doesn't exist, and were not going to live our lives considering him any more factual than we do leprechauns.

So that'll be 100% certainty he doesn't exist then.

I think because the subject is so personal for many believers and nonbelievers we tend to spend extra time defining what we mean when talking about certainty. Sure I may never be able to completely demonstrate the non-existence of leprechauns but frankly I don't care. It seems silly to tell me that I can't be 100% sure that leprechauns don't exist when there has never been a shred of evidence pointing to their existence. They've only appeared in fiction. You could just as easily state "how do you know we don't live in the matrix?" Sure, there's epistemology that speaks of what we can really know - but it's not pertinent to the above discussion. Hell, ever heard of solipsism?

Pointing out that we can never be 100% certain should be accompanied by a "na na na boo boo"

I have an "agnostic" friend, probably, like in the OP. He dwells on the idea that we cannot know anything with absolute certainty. He was certain about it.

Quote from: "ForTheLoveOfAll"

Quote from: "terranus"

QuoteI wont believe in ultimate truth untill we have a Theory of Everything.

So you're saying you don't believe in absolute truths?

I believe in progression, that every time we find something that we think is true, we tend to find something else that shows the previous truth was either flawed or totally wrong. I believe in absolute truth to the degree that it is only truth for the time being.

Hmm. Maybe I'm not understanding the definition of an absolute truth correctly then.

For example, I witness 2 men walking towards each other in the middle of the street. Man A pulls out a gun, and shoots Man B dead. Since I saw this happen with my own 2 eyes, I know for a fact that Man A shot Man B. Is this not an absolute truth?

Quote from: "terranus"Hmm. Maybe I'm not understanding the definition of an absolute truth correctly then.

For example, I witness 2 men walking towards each other in the middle of the street. Man A pulls out a gun, and shoots Man B dead. Since I saw this happen with my own 2 eyes, I know for a fact that Man A shot Man B. Is this not an absolute truth?

You could be dreaming.
You could be suffering from a delusion.
It could be staged.
Et al.

I try to use analogies to dispell these type of arguments. Agnosticism is a statement on knowledge, while atheist is one on beleif (going by the root meanings of the words).

Agnosticism - I don't know

Atheism - I don't have a belief in theism

Atheist don't have the burden of proof for the lack of belief, just as a person does not have to prove that fairies don't exist, or leprechauns, or unicorns, or a giant magic teapot circling a distant planet somewhere in the cosmos. There's no reason to hold a belief on their existence until given sufficient evidence. One could say that they're agnostic on those matters as well.

It's the position of anti theism that makes claims based on evidence, but that stance is not a religious one with and ideology or system of positive beliefs like theism is. Really, it takes the presence of a theist to make an antitheist, and that's all it is, going contrary to the claims made by theists because there's no evidence to support them. The idea that some theists have that you have to first believe in something to argue against it is just ludicrous.

Why don't people get this?

That's rigoddamndiculous...