Happy Atheist Forum

So, being raised in the south, I've seen the best and the worst when it comes to manliness. I've seen cowardly idiots who wouldn't be able to stand up for themselves under any circumstances, and I've seen gun toting rednecks with a beer in one hand and a Bible in the other 24/7. Masculinity in America seems to have taken a turn for the worst.

Most places on the internet you go looking for manly men either fall too far to the pansy side (The Art of Manliness.) or end up being greased up, semi-psychotic, overly violent lunatics. (Arthurs Hall.)

Now, don't get me wrong. There are still many manly folk to have somewhat recently arisen in America. (Pat Tillman, Clint Eastwood, etc.) But most of the greats, the ones who were really influential, seem to have come and gone.

We have many who are feigning manliness. (George Bush, Tom Cruise, etc.) But what happend to the old days?

I mean, compare the way presidents look now as compared to how they used to. When was the last time a president actually had the balls to grow a freaking beard?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh166%2Fgreenacres3%2FTheodoreRooseveltminimised.jpg&hash=525db5480317b64b8e089e3ad0b7379442d0f957)

I dare you to find a manlier president (With the exception of say, Thomas Jefferson or Vladamir Putin.) than Theodore Rosevelt. Modern day politicians pale in comparison.

There are no more role models today, or perhaps the standards have changed. I remember days when kids grew up with Huckelberry Finn, Tom Sawyer, and Sylvester Stallone. Now it's Robert Pattinson, Michael Cera, and... And... Oh, no. OH GOD NO

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1233.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff396%2FNatalyBieberxo%2FJustin%2520Bieber%2Fbieber-1.jpg&hash=918e00b72548ced088d93c7507425714e2b83154)
Justin Bieber. -Shudders-

The only one I see on television anymore that seems even worty of being a role model is on a freaking commercial. (And, damn, is it a manly commercial.)

[youtube:31pxu7q4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U18VkI0uDxE[/youtube:31pxu7q4]

Now, this may all seem like the chauvinistic ramblings of some disgruntled male, but I promise you, it's not. I consider men and women to be equal. One cannot exist without the other, and I love women. Their form, their personalities, and the fact that women can be... well, womanly! My point is, testosterone seems to be falling away at an alarming rate, and I fear what this may indicate for future generations. Am I the only one that doesn't want to see every guy walking around with a crooked hat, straightened hair, and pants sagging to their knees? All while listening to Celine Dion and Eminem on the iPod their parents bought him?

I wish more people would look at 13 as the age of majoity. There was a day when boys were adventurous, had a desire to learn, and an infinite amount of wanderlust. Now their minds are lazy, and they'd rather sit inside all day and play videogames. I'm alarmed every time I go to town or to my parents church that the ONLY thing the kids there seem to know anything about are Football and videogames. Where are the warriors? Where are the great adventurers? Where are the great philosophers? Where are the George Carlins, Carl Sagans, and Thomas Jeffersons of tomorow? And what can we do to bring manliness back?

I admit that throughout history men have been, as a rule, a bunch of rude, overzealous, and tyrannical thugs to women. And I apologize on behalf of my gender for that. But this is a new dawn, a new day, and it's time that the men of the world let their balls drop, learn to have a steel hand with a velvet glove, and help create a better tomorrow.

In closing, I share with you the greatest kid ever.

[youtube:31pxu7q4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGxBizeiL3s[/youtube:31pxu7q4]

If I didn't know better I would have thought Big Mac was back.

I don't think it's possible to be truly pro equality yet in the same breath demand that men act like stereotypical men or that women should be "womanly".

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't think it's possible to be truly pro equality yet in the same breath demand that men act like stereotypical men or that women should be "womanly".

Yes.

Unless, of course, you mean "manliness" in the sense of being a good, honorable person.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't think it's possible to be truly pro equality yet in the same breath demand that men act like stereotypical men or that women should be "womanly".

Yes.

Unless, of course, you mean "manliness" in the sense of being a good, honorable person.

Terms that are equally applicable to women.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't think it's possible to be truly pro equality yet in the same breath demand that men act like stereotypical men or that women should be "womanly".

Yes.

Unless, of course, you mean "manliness" in the sense of being a good, honorable person.

There are certain traits that are just natural in different genders. Women TEND to be more nurturing, caring. Men TEND to be more commanding, etc. I'm not saying women cant have traits that would usually be considered masculine, or that men cant have traits that would usually be considered feminine. It's the new trend of metrosexuals that grinds against my nerves. Men spending way too much time doing their nails and shopping at Banana Republic, letting their minds suffer and their bodies turn into twigs, rather than accomplishing something in the world. I don't mean masculinity as far as being gun toting, violent thugs who down a six pack every hour.

Quote from: "ForTheLoveOfAll"Men spending way too much time doing their nails and shopping at Banana Republic, letting their minds suffer and their bodies turn into twigs, rather than accomplishing something in the world.

So acting 'feminine' means you don't accomplish anything worthwhile  :dig:

Quote from: "ForTheLoveOfAll"I'm not saying women cant have traits that would usually be considered masculine, or that men cant have traits that would usually be considered feminine. It's the new trend of metrosexuals that grinds against my nerves.

So, men can be "feminine", but men can't be feminine and straight...?

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "ForTheLoveOfAll"Men spending way too much time doing their nails and shopping at Banana Republic, letting their minds suffer and their bodies turn into twigs, rather than accomplishing something in the world.

So acting 'feminine' means you don't accomplish anything worthwhile  :dig:

No, but you still miss my point. I use that only as an example. Ther's nothing wrong with being masculine or feminine, or having qualities of either, regardless of your gender. I'm talking about the modern day tendencey in America for the male to become something less than man or woman. A laziness that doesn't really fit in with masculinity or femnimity. You've seen it, haven't you? Men who have barely left their cribs, can't stand to be without their creature comforts, never read books, do nothing but laze around all day talking and thinking about things that hold no value whatsoever? My call to masculinity is more of a request to return to being authentic humans, not media slaves, mentally dead, lazy buffoons. Compare the average man now to the average man of the late 1800's and the early 1900's and there's a stark difference. The desire to work, to learn, to accomplish, it's deadening. This is not an attack on women, or an attempt to tell men not to have feminine qualities, but to embrace the masculinity that IS fading.

QuoteSo, men can be "feminine", but men can't be feminine and straight...?

Perhaps my terminology is wrong. I have feminine qualities. My father does. Most men do have at least some qualities that would be considered "feminine." This doesn't affect their sexuality at all, though. By metrosexual, I mean men who worry FAR too much about their image. You know. Shave every hair from their bodies, fix their hair every time they pass a mirror, etc. The stuck up lower to middle class guy who worries too much about his looks, isn't trying to better himself or the world, and tends to be generally one of the problems with society. Not all of them are, but the ones I run into tend to be. Maybe my mindset is wrong, maybe the world is meant to be as it is now. I don't know. It just seems like with the change isn't for the better. The avatars, the heros that we are so fond of all seem to be in the past. The reason that I use the men as an example is because I'm a guy myself, so I wouldn't feel appropriate coming from the woman's stance as well.

Also, the overly-macho assholes can be just as bad, if not worse in some cases.

PS: I've got nothing against homosexuals, either. I'm in full support of the gay and lesbian movement. Some of the best people I know are bi/gay/les.

Quote from: "ForTheLoveOfAll"I'm talking about the modern day tendencey in America for the male to become something less than man or woman. A laziness that doesn't really fit in with masculinity or femnimity. You've seen it, haven't you? Men who have barely left their cribs, can't stand to be without their creature comforts, never read books, do nothing but laze around all day talking and thinking about things that hold no value whatsoever?

I'm not aware of this being common practice.  The only people who I can think of that come close to that description would be a few idots from some of those reality tv shows....and those don't represent real life.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "ForTheLoveOfAll"I'm talking about the modern day tendencey in America for the male to become something less than man or woman. A laziness that doesn't really fit in with masculinity or femnimity. You've seen it, haven't you? Men who have barely left their cribs, can't stand to be without their creature comforts, never read books, do nothing but laze around all day talking and thinking about things that hold no value whatsoever?

I'm not aware of this being common practice.  The only people who I can think of that come close to that description would be a few idots from some of those reality tv shows....and those don't represent real life.

Then I suppose the people you commonly interact with are of a higher standard, or the ones I'm usually getting to interact with are of a lower. Yes, there are some marvelous folk' here and there, but the majority tend to be as described above.

Anyway, I've had my rant for the day.

What happened to it, I think, is that it receded when people got a real chance to be what they want, rather than being what is expected.

Now, those who want to be hair-chested, wrench-wielding types still may, yet those who want to be more... Well, girly, for the lack of a better word, may do that.

I do not know about you guys, But that Dos X guy is awsome! If that's not manly I don't know what is! He doesn't take shit from no one! not even chuck norris!

Quote from: "Asmodean"What happened to it, I think, is that it receded when people got a real chance to be what they want, rather than being what is expected.

Now, those who want to be hair-chested, wrench-wielding types still may, yet those who want to be more... Well, girly, for the lack of a better word, may do that.

That sounds reasonable, those who could and wanted to have been playing the dandy for a long time.
How come when I see manly men splitting wood in movies they use an axe and not a block splitter?
Oh and that Theodore Roosevelt in the picture above seems to be wearing far too many [strike:3akvxo61]spangley[/strike:3akvxo61] tassley things on his outdoorsy outfit, this raises questions in my mind.

Idk, Pudding's avatar seems pretty manly.

QuoteI mean, compare the way presidents look now as compared to how they used to. When was the last time a president actually had the balls to grow a freaking beard?

Well, I don't know about a President, but I do remember a certain former V.P. growing one after he lost to George W.

QuoteThe stuck up lower to middle class guy who worries too much about his looks, isn't trying to better himself or the world, and tends to be generally one of the problems with society.

Hey there, how's it going?

I am lower-middle class, slightly stuck-up (mostly against the fundies) and yes, I do care about my looks. Wouldn't call myself a metro, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't pretty self-conscious. I am. Always have been, since I was a little kid. Not seeing how this is such a bad thing, however. I mean, I've never tried to stop another guy from looking like a dweeb, and neither have any other metro or semi-metro guys I know. Why do you have such a chip on your shoulder against guys who want to look good? To me, this sounds like you must've had some type of negative personal experience with a bad party-boy like myself. I'm sorry if you did, but there's no reason to haul off and call every one of us a problem within society.

Quote from: "Cecilie"Idk, Pudding's avatar seems pretty manly.

It's only because I'm so manly that I can wear a girly (Queens) hat.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "Cecilie"Idk, Pudding's avatar seems pretty manly.

It's only because I'm so manly that I can wear a girly hat.

You know, I didn't even notice your girly hat. That's how manly you are.

Quote from: "Cecilie"You know, I didn't even notice your girly hat. That's how manly you are.

Yes, would you say this is due more to my well formed thighs or my steely stare?

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "Cecilie"You know, I didn't even notice your girly hat. That's how manly you are.

Yes, would you say this is due more to my well formed thighs or my steely stare?

Maybe a combination of both, but I'd say the stare.

When a man takes care of himself, I think he's giving the people he's trying to attract an appropriate level of appreciation. In the case of a man trying to attract a woman, doing things to make himself presentable and show that he has enough respect for women to put some effort into presentation is something that I see as manly. What is more manly than trying to attract women?

For a more universal type of judgment, I suppose it would be that if you (if you're attracted to women) expect a woman to put in a lot of effort to make herself look good, then you should also put in a lot of effort to make yourself look good. If one is a slob, I don't think one should expect more than that.

When I had a hawk, I spent a good hour or so to get that thing up (a good 14 inches long), spent about fifteen minutes taking it down and made my own spiky shit. That was a considerable amount of time put into making myself look good (in the eye of the beholder).

Manliness seems to mostly a concern of the younger set.  By the time you reach my age (past the half century mark; more than that I won't say   ) most men have come to terms with whether they're sufficiently manly, and really don't give a damn what anybody thinks about that. And if they're secure enough in their own skin, they don't give a damn about other men's manliness either.

  If you're looking to politicians and celebrities for role models, you're looking in the wrong place. The image presented by yahoos and bozos like Jason Statham and Vin Diesel are examples of the way not to go, in my opinion. Then again, I don't think that Viggo Mortensen's image is a horrible example.  Still a bit on the "too tough for his own good" side though...

Thinking back on when I was a young buck, I don't remember being concerned about manliness even then.

 I think the fact that our society no longer puts such a serious emphasis on it is a good thing.  The manly role models and stereotypes of the past were more macho posturing than manifestations of genuinely meaningful values.

There's actually a rather large problem in Japan right now where too many men are becoming too effeminate whilst the female population are becoming increasingly independent, strong and powerful in all walks of life. The proportion of single people vs. married is growing by a staggering amount each year. Many Japanese men have resorted to going to 'masculinity classes' because they are being labelled by strong females as 'herbivores'.

It wouldn't really be an issue if it wasn't impacting the population so badly, but it is. The death rate overtook the birth rate decades ago and the increasing amount of herbivores is compounding the issue. It is also becoming increasingly socially acceptable to have other forms of companionship in the form of dolls or pillows. If you go to Tokyo at night, you may well see some Japanese men in karaoke bars cradling their Dakimakura love pillows.. There's even a company which makes skimpy underwear (including bras) specifically for men.

So if the OP thinks there's a male problem in the US, then may I humbly recommend visiting Japan.

Tim Flannery mentioned the possibility/likelihood males would  start to change in future generations due to sexual selection.
The argument as I recall was in the past woman would have been more constrained by society in their choice of mates.
So in future we can expect the male to develop new, not necessarily practical traits due to female choice.  Something equivalent to the outrageous plumage of a bird of paradise perhaps.

I certainly see what the OP is trying to say. Lets take sex out of the equation. I think it is more of an argument about the difference between the OP's values and society's values today. I tend to agree. There seem to be far too many people today that value vanity (both sexes), popularity, fame, etc...and have forgotten about intelligence, free thought and self worth. I am lucky enough that I had 15 years with the greatest man I’ve ever met. He had a feminine side, but could build me a house single-handedly, constantly strove to learn new skills, how things worked and why. He didn’t place value in hairstyles, but was nicely groomed. Sex is not the issue, as it is the same with women. Some women will spend three hours trying to make themselves look hot for a night out. Others will take 20 minutes and look just as hot, but spend the remaining few hours reading a book.

Looks are fine but it really is what's between the ears that makes a person. I met my wife at a party and we were married 5 month later. That'll be 31 years ago at the end of March 2011. After we were married she asked me why I had come over to her at the party, my reply was 'You were tall, blond, attractive with big boobs and a low cut top'. I was expecting the clout so managed to dodge it  :sigh:

Quote from: "Tank"I don't understand youngsters anymore  

I don't think I ever have! And I am barely out of that stage myself.

Quote from: "Lost"

Quote from: "Tank"I don't understand youngsters anymore  

I don't think I ever have! And I am barely out of that age group myself.

Quote from: "Cecilie"Idk, Pudding's avatar seems pretty manly.

Really..?  :hmm:

 

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Cecilie"Idk, Pudding's avatar seems pretty manly.

Really..?  :hmm:

 :P

Quote from: "Cecilie"Cause your avatar is so manly? Just a dissatisfied lump, I'd say. :D

Manliness and womanliness are pretty much social constructs.

Take the picture of Roosevelt. A badass right?  

A few hundred years earlier, the badasses wore brightly colored tights and fought with over sized knives.

A few thousand years earlier and the badasses wore long shirts, fought with shorter over sized knives and had sex with their fellow badasses.

Whatever criteria determine "manliness" and "womanliness" change over time.  Sometimes its due to pressures withing a society and I'd be that at other times the change is do to a group within a society wanting to ostracize another group (soldiers = manly; hippies >= manly).

I blame it on the downfall of the Marlboro man.  If only smoking was good for us.