Happy Atheist Forum

I often think about this, for example if the whole world can be explained
by materialism, so God would play no part and won't even exist.
Then wouldn't that mean that we are senseless robots, you might think 'ehh....are you deluted?'.

I'll try to explain.

We as humans still do not know what the most tiny particle is, we are already far beyond quarks.

If science says, that every thought, every motion in your brain, is a consequence of
particular chemical reactions. Then how did those reactions start? And what action triggered that? And what action triggered that? and so on...and on..and on....
This would mean, that what my thoughts are at moment, the 'universe' already knew it 5 billion years ago.

Because my thoughts are created because of certain chemical particles, those chemical particles already existed 5 billion years ago.

Does this make sense? Every action has a rection, and that leads to another action, so basically if we just go by science, everything has already been pre-destined?
Where are the 'headquarters' of the human will? And what controlls that headquarter? Is there any 'headquarter'?

That would mean that the particle that will cause your DNA in a certain cell to mutate, which means you will get cancer is already on it's journey
to reach you in a year or 15 so. And nothing is going to stop that particle, because every thought you have has already been pre-destined?

Even what I'm doing now, was already pre-destined.
Basically everything you do, whatever you think.


And in the midst of this chaos of billions and trillions of particles flying everywhere, we don't suddenly fall apart or decompose?
And somehow humanity advances through technology? Why do we advance? That would mean that small particles change their behaviour...

It makes no sense...What is the source of our intelligence?


For example.

I decide for a certain reason to punch you in your face.

- My brains will send particles to my muscles
- I'll punch you
- You'll feel pain, because particles send a signal to your brain.
- You'll feel angry, because certain particles tell you to do so.

What I mean, there is a never ending action - reaction, something we can't get our grip on.
Simply because we are a product of that process accroding to science.
So we as humans have nothing to say, and we can even calculate in the near feature what happened in the past
and what will happen in the future. By just making trillions calculations of particulars coliding, and looking what way they will go.

Another example, so why did life on Earth start?
If it happened just by chance, if it did..
Then why do we continue to progress?

It's as if, some weird atom was traveling through space and saw this rock, and somehow decided by it's own will
to curve it's orbit and have some fun on earth...other atoms joined him too, and together they formed moleculs which
was the base for DNA.

Then we are nothing more than the product of the universe's 'billiard' game.
We don't even exist, we are just made of a couple of billions particles that somehow link together
and we respresent them. Which means that even our emotion is fake and not real, since it's a product of particles bumping one and another.






Now, does this make sense? Or should I start taking pills?

QuoteiSok wrote: For example.

I decide for a certain reason to punch you in your face.

- My brains will send particles to my muscles
- I'll punch you
- You'll feel pain, because particles send a signal to your brain.
- You'll feel angry, because certain particles tell you to do so.

What I mean, there is a never ending action - reaction, something we can't get our grip on.

iSok,

You decide for a reason to punch me in the face
I decide to move out of the way before that punch lands.

This is free will, and still scientifically valid.

Quote from: "LARA"

QuoteiSok wrote: For example.

I decide for a certain reason to punch you in your face.

- My brains will send particles to my muscles
- I'll punch you
- You'll feel pain, because particles send a signal to your brain.
- You'll feel angry, because certain particles tell you to do so.

What I mean, there is a never ending action - reaction, something we can't get our grip on.

iSok,

You decide for a reason to punch me in the face
I decide to move out of the way before that punch lands.

This is free will, and still scientifically valid.

So how did you see my punch coming? Because you saw my hand coming, a signal for cells within your eyes went to your brains.
Your brains activate your muscles, you move.

For this whole action, particles are needed. let's say the smallest particle is an atom.

So it wasn't your own will, because that doesn't exist here.

Your life is a product of continuous colishion (I need to work on my English..) of atoms.
You have nothing to say in the matter.

How do you activate your free will?
There's no such thing as a place in your brain where atoms are waiting for orders.
And where does that order come from to react? Because every action must be explained in matter, even if it's an quark.
And that means that we are simple subjects, in fact we don't even 'exist'.

Like I said before, every emotion, our free will is because of particles and not some magical order to command your atoms to do this.


The entire Universe consists out of zillions and billions and quadrozillions particles, in short.. A LOT!

If theoretically, we can calculate the orbit of each tiny particle. Then we have the knowledge of the past and the future.

But we can never control it, because we are a part of it. There is no such thing as free will......and in fact, it's Destiny.
Every thought you have now, every action you take..all of it was destined to be.

Read up on the heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Aside from that you've almost got a handle on it, the laws of physics are what make the universe tick. Free will is a strange thing, I think it's more or less an illusion. You decide to do things or think things based on a large number of factors including your past experience and knowledge. If every neuron of your brain could be modeled you could run a computer simulation and it would likely make the same decisions and think the same things as you when presented with the same stimuli in much the same way that if you fill a room with hydrogen and oxygen and set off a spark you're going to get water. It wouldn't happen any other way, the hydrogen and oxygen atoms can't suddenly decide to break with tradition and bond with their nuclei instead of their electrons and become fluorine instead.

Quote from: "iSok"Then we are nothing more than the product of the universe's 'billiard' game.
We don't even exist, we are just made of a couple of billions particles that somehow link together
and we respresent them. Which means that even our emotion is fake and not real, since it's a product of particles bumping one and another.

That is what is so cool and beautiful about it all, embrace it, it is truly amazing. So amazing that it fascinates us and fills us with wonder and creates a burning ambition in some to find the answers, no matter how difficult or futile the search is.

Others seem to want the answers immediately and cannot stand not knowing hence they look for quick answers to everything which may not necessarily explain anything.

Others refuse to come to an understanding that they are insignificant in the cosmos, they want to believe that they will always exist, that they will always be important, that they are special.

I feel special, just being insignificant and trying to make sense of this glorious place I am privileged to live in.

Well, this is where I disagree.
One of the many... many points, I disagree with materialism.
I just can't believe that we can represent this infinite chaos ... by chance.
There must be an Organizer.

It is as if there are billions of giant meteors moving towards Earth, but all of them miss Earth just by chance.

Mankind somehow found the theory of evolution (it is plausible)
Still it's a theory, but even if it's true...it doesn't prove that God doesn't exist.
As a matter of fact, if evolution is true, personally I think it's even more proof for the existence of God.


I don't really neccesarily talk about neurons..but about the smallest particles possible...
In the end it's all a result of different collisions, and we are the result of it.
Everything we do, has already been settled.

For a long time I didn't understand the concept of 'Al-Qadar (Pre-Destiny)' within Islam.
It's not pre-destined for mankind, but pre-ordained.


(This topic is not really science related anymore I think..move it to Religion)


@Stevil.

The difference is, that I do not see any reason NOT to believe.
Basically there's not a single proof on the world that will say 'God does not exist'.

I consider mankind, nothing more than a baby, but somehow this baby with his primitive
science in the infinite universe already denied it's Creator's existence.

Everywhere I look, I see organization.
Just think of those zillions of particles flying around........manufacturing a new creation.
It's utterly amazing and I'm really blown away by it.

People deny the existence of a soul for example, because science can't prove it.
Since science can't, it can't be there!!

We have no idea in what dimension we live, as a matter of fact this life could even be somekind of a sleep...
Do you know in your dream, that you are dreaming?



What's wrong with believe?
If you can think, read and say anything you want.

I'm someone who doesn't conclude anything all to soon, I just wait and observe the world and let time do the word.
Believing doesn't harm me, my life, or my knowledge or whatsoever at all, I have nothing to lose but I have everything to gain.

QuoteiSok wrote: So how did you see my punch coming? Because you saw my hand coming, a signal for cells within your eyes went to your brains.
Your brains activate your muscles, you move.

For this whole action, particles are needed. let's say the smallest particle is an atom.

So it wasn't your own will, because that doesn't exist here.

Ridiculous.  The atoms in my body would not spontaneously move out of the way of a punch.  They have no sense of self-preservation on their own.  Only from a whole, thinking being can there be this sort of reaction.  It's the nature of the material system to emerge into different orders and behaviors when certain criteria and tipping points are reached.

But I want you to make your own free will just an illusion, so do go on.

Quote from: "LARA"

QuoteiSok wrote: So how did you see my punch coming? Because you saw my hand coming, a signal for cells within your eyes went to your brains.
Your brains activate your muscles, you move.

For this whole action, particles are needed. let's say the smallest particle is an atom.

So it wasn't your own will, because that doesn't exist here.

Ridiculous.  The atoms in my body would not spontaneously move out of the way of a punch.  They have no sense of self-preservation on their own.  Only from a whole, thinking being can there be this sort of reaction.  It's the nature of the material system to emerge into different orders and behaviors when certain criteria and tipping points are reached.

But I want you to make your own free will just an illusion, so do go on.

How do you think? Your thinkingproces is the cause of chemical reactions in your brain. Which are the cause of other events...other particles.
You as a 'being' are a result of chance by zillions of collisions, by looking at the material aspect, you don't own a free will.
Every thought you have is already pre-destined.

This message I'm typing, has already been pre-determined.....

Can you explain where your free will comes from if you think you have one?

Okay, so free will doesn't exist, and is just a very convincing illusion.

So what?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Okay, so free will doesn't exist, and is just a very convincing illusion.

So what?

For you it will mean nothing.

Quote from: "iSok"For you it will mean nothing.

Okay, then. Glad we could sort that out.

I'm fine with free will being a very convincing illusion.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Okay, then. Glad we could sort that out.

I'm fine with free will being a very convincing illusion.

You, not I

Quote from: "iSok"The difference is, that I do not see any reason NOT to believe.

So it comes down to the age old argument of where does the burden of proof lie?
For me, the burdon of proof lies on the theorist, for you it lies on the other side of the fence.

Quote from: "iSok"Everywhere I look, I see organization.
Just think of those zillions of particles flying around........manufacturing a new creation.
It's utterly amazing and I'm really blown away by it.

Yes, utterly amazing. And there is an exciting and challenging search on to find the answers while minimizing assumptions.

Quote from: "iSok"What's wrong with believe?

I see problems when that belief is wrapped up in intolerance, persecution, rejection of health safety practices, rejection of education, rejection of equality...
If it didn't come with this baggage then I would have absolutely no problems with it.

Quote from: "Stevil"So it comes down to the age old argument of where does the burden of proof lie?
For me, the burdon of proof lies on the theorist, for you it lies on the other side of the fence.

I do not reject science.... I myself will probably enrole in an academic career in the field of structural engineering.
The problem is Stevil that I can't explain it with just words, how odd it may sound...

When you see a building, you ponder about the Architect. What did he mean by that?
Why is the facade man of glass and not of brick? Does this aspect have a relation with the interior?


This is the same way I think about the Universe.
'Why did God this?'
'What is this for?'
'What does He mean by that?'
'Why would He do that?'

Some men see it as  chaos, but I see it as a clear organisation.
I constantly ponder about this, wherever I am..in the train...on the bus. I don't say 'God did this!! So I'll never know!!'
(That's what many atheists assume....that we think this way).
My friends who do not believe in God, they never think about issues like these, but my mind is constantly fixed on it.

My religion doesn't tell me how to think and what to read.
But it commands me to think and to read anything of knowledge and to ponder about creation.
For example, what does He mean with 'a second creation'? Things like this make me think.



[Say: `Travel on earth, and see how He originated the creation. Then Allah will initiate the second creation in the same manner. Certainly, Allah has power over all things] Qur’an 29:20.

Didn't Darwin do that?



About religion being intolerant or whatsoever, I completely disagree....
You read a book about women in Saudi Arabia and you concluded that it must be Islam..
While on the same time you do not realise that Saudi Arabia has a mix of tribal law and islamic law...
And that the way of Islam there practised is Wahhabism (interpretation of Islam, came forward in 1800)..while many Muslim disagree with that way....
In case you need books about the biography of Muhammad (pbuh) for example, I can recommend a few.

Without religion..people would still be intolerant.
It's not religion, but the people following it and interpretating it in the way they like it.
I follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah, do you see me being intolerant?

Quote from: "iSok"I do not reject science.... I myself will probably enrole in an academic career in the field of structural engineering.
The problem is Stevil that I can't explain it with just words, how odd it may sound...

When you see a building, you ponder about the Architect. What did he mean by that?
Why is the facade man of glass and not of brick? Does this aspect have a relation with the interior?


This is the same way I think about the Universe.
'Why did God this?'
'What is this for?'
'What does He mean by that?'
'Why would He do that?'

Some men see it as  chaos, but I see it as a clear organization.
I constantly ponder about this, wherever I am..in the train...on the bus. I don't say 'God did this!! So I'll never know!!'
(That's what many atheists assume....that we think this way).
My friends who do not believe in God, they never think about issues like these, but my mind is constantly fixed on it.

My religion doesn't tell me how to think and what to read.
But it commands me to think and to read anything of knowledge and to ponder about creation.


[Say: `Travel on earth, and see how He originated the creation. Then Allah will initiate the second creation in the same manner. Certainly, Allah has power over all things] Qur’an 29:20.

Didn't Darwin do that?

Atheists can ponder the same type of questions, only without invoking the idea of any supernatural being(s) or entity/entities.

QuoteAbout religion being intolerant or whatsoever, I completely disagree....
You read a book about women in Saudi Arabia and you concluded that it must be Islam..
While on the same time you do not realise that Saudi Arabia has a mix of tribal law and islamic law...
And that the way of Islam there practised is Wahhabism (interpretation of Islam, came forward in 1800)..while many Muslim disagree with that way....
In case you need books about the biography of Muhammad (pbuh) for example, I can recommend a few.

You're missing the point. People can argue all day whether a group of people are interpreting a holy book correctly, but what it really comes down to is ideology and irrational thinking in general.

QuoteWithout religion..people would still be intolerant.

Yes.

QuoteIt's not religion, but the people following it and interpretating it in the way they like it.

Religion doesn't make people intolerant, but it sure doesn't help.

QuoteI follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah, do you see me being intolerant?

You are what the majority of people would call a "moderate Muslim".

QuoteAtheists can ponder the same type of questions, only without invoking the idea of any supernatural being(s) or entity/entities.

Did I say that they can't? :D )

QuoteYou are what the majority of people would call a "moderate Muslim".

I pray five times day.
I fast during the month of Ramadam.
I don't drink, I don't visit clubs.
I have a beard..etc..

Majority of people will not sit next to me in the train, I might detonate anytime

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteAtheists can ponder the same type of questions, only without invoking the idea of any supernatural being(s) or entity/entities.

Did I say that they can't? :D )

You don't need religion to avoid doing those things and being a better person.

By the way, what's wrong with loving material "stuff"? Everything is material (except your god). Are you saying you only love your god now, to the exclusion of everything else?

QuoteI pray five times day.
I fast during the month of Ramadam.
I don't drink, I don't visit clubs.
I have a beard..etc..

Majority of people will not sit next to me in the train, I might detonate anytime

That's just stereotyping.

We frankly don't know enough about the universe or brain function to make an educated decision on if our actions are predetermined.  

God or not, it's possible that chemically true free-will is impossible and we are a slave to our environment and can do nothing to change our nature.

Throw an all knowing all knowing god into the mix and our chances of having a true free-will gets even smaller.

Nonetheless, I still live my life as if I have free will...because I might, the way people act seems a lot like free will, and if feel like I make decisions free from direct influence.  Even if I knew I didn't have free will I obviously wouldn't have a choice to not live as if I have free will.  

I suspect that our brains take in information from the environment, process it, and we develop a decision on the fly and that even in the same environment we would not always make the same decision because sometimes one decision isn't necessarily better than another.  If I'm right, that sounds like free will to me; maybe some scientists have or will verify that some day.

Anyway, are you just pointing this out because you found it interesting or do you think that lack of free will due to materialism is somehow a reason to believe in a god?

Quote from: "Whitney"We frankly don't know enough about the universe or brain function to make an educated decision on if our actions are predetermined.  

God or not, it's possible that chemically true free-will is impossible and we are a slave to our environment and can do nothing to change our nature.

Throw an all knowing all knowing god into the mix and our chances of having a true free-will gets even smaller.

Nonetheless, I still live my life as if I have free will...because I might, the way people act seems a lot like free will, and if feel like I make decisions free from direct influence.  Even if I knew I didn't have free will I obviously wouldn't have a choice to not live as if I have free will.  

I suspect that our brains take in information from the environment, process it, and we develop a decision on the fly and that even in the same environment we would not always make the same decision because sometimes one decision isn't necessarily better than another.  If I'm right, that sounds like free will to me; maybe some scientists have or will verify that some day.

Anyway, are you just pointing this out because you found it interesting or do you think that lack of free will due to materialism is somehow a reason to believe in a god?

Think of it this way: if you go back in time and do nothing at all, could events simply change at random? Or would it play out exactly as it did before?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Think of it this way: if you go back in time and do nothing at all, could events simply change at random? Or would it play out exactly as it did before?

I'm not sure what that has to do with free will.

Of course if I did nothing there would be events that wouldn't happen, events that would happen (that wouldn't otherwise) and many of these would have a butterfly effect.  But that's because our decisions affect the choices available in future situations.

Like if I decide to run a red light and kill someone yet went back and did nothing that person would still be alive.  That situation could happen regardless of if I have free will.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Think of it this way: if you go back in time and do nothing at all, could events simply change at random? Or would it play out exactly as it did before?

I'm not sure what that has to do with free will.

It points out that true free will is most likely impossible, as all our actions are a result of previous actions, and, in the exact same situation, we would make the exact same "choices".

QuoteOf course if I did nothing there would be events that wouldn't happen, events that would happen (that wouldn't otherwise) and many of these would have a butterfly effect.  But that's because our decisions affect the choices available in future situations.

That's missing the point.

I'm not sure that proves no free will.

If I ran the red light because I was looking at a text I could have just as easily not looked at the text in the same situation...it would be a difference of me deciding to do what is right (not look at the text till stopped) or to make a poor decision (to look at the text).

Quote from: "Whitney"I'm not sure that proves no free will.

If I ran the red light because I was looking at a text I could have just as easily not looked at the text in the same situation...it would be a difference of me deciding to do what is right (not look at the text till stopped) or to make a poor decision (to look at the text).

Are you so sure that you can actually make that choice? Yes, it gives a very, very convincing illusion of choice, but if you knew yourself better you would have known what course of action you had to take, based on previous actions.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Whitney"I'm not sure that proves no free will.

If I ran the red light because I was looking at a text I could have just as easily not looked at the text in the same situation...it would be a difference of me deciding to do what is right (not look at the text till stopped) or to make a poor decision (to look at the text).

Are you so sure that you can actually make that choice? Yes, it gives a very, very convincing illusion of choice, but if you knew yourself better you would have known what course of action you had to take, based on previous actions.

But how do you know this?

My position is we don't know enough about the universe or brain to know that there is no possible way that things could have turned out differently if suddenly we were back at the beginning of life and things were allowed to run their course again.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Whitney"I'm not sure that proves no free will.

If I ran the red light because I was looking at a text I could have just as easily not looked at the text in the same situation...it would be a difference of me deciding to do what is right (not look at the text till stopped) or to make a poor decision (to look at the text).

Are you so sure that you can actually make that choice? Yes, it gives a very, very convincing illusion of choice, but if you knew yourself better you would have known what course of action you had to take, based on previous actions.

But how do you know this?

My position is we don't know enough about the universe or brain to know that there is no possible way that things could have turned out differently if suddenly we were back at the beginning of life and things were allowed to run their course again.

My current understanding is that all research indicates that determinism is true. Of course, we can't know for sure, but you can say that for just about anything. I think that, logically, it's almost impossible to deny determinism without resorting to the supernatural.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"My current understanding is that all research indicates that determinism is true. Of course, we can't know for sure, but you can say that for just about anything. I think that, logically, it's almost impossible to deny determinism without resorting to the supernatural.

I'm not sure about "all research" Thumpa and others have refereed to randomness of atomic decay, I can't say I understand this.  I could question whether it just seems random, but I probably wouldn't understand the answer.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6084&start=15 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6084&start=15)

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"I'm not sure about "all research" Thumpa and others have refereed to randomness of atomic decay, I can't say I understand this.  I could question whether it just seems random, but I probably wouldn't understand the answer.
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewto ... 4&start=15 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6084&start=15)

Maybe I shouldn't have referred to determinism. What I really meant to say was that my current understanding is that all current research points to there being no free will.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I think that, logically, it's almost impossible to deny determinism without resorting to the supernatural.

But there is no logical reason to assume determinism unless there is scientific evidence that everything is determined (unless you have an argument for determinism solely based on logic)....and as far as I can tell determinism has neither been confirmed or denied by science.

http://homepages.luc.edu/~avande1/free-will-args.htm (http://homepages.luc.edu/~avande1/free-will-args.htm)
I have to say, most of these arguments sucked balls, although #6 is similar to what Whitney is saying.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/ ... 2010-04-06 (http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=scientists-say-free-will-probably-d-2010-04-06)
I'd choose to give the parents the documents. I don't think I could bring myself to strangle an innocent six-year-old, even if would grow up to be one of the most "evil" dictators the world has ever known.

EDIT: Wow, the comments section of that article may even be more interesting than the article itself. All this stuff is very confusing.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"I'm not sure about "all research" Thumpa and others have refereed to randomness of atomic decay, I can't say I understand this.

I'm no scientist and have not explored this but to my mind atomic decay makes perfect sense. There is no such this as perpetual energy. Over time atoms lose energy, when they lose too much energy they must decay. Over a huge amount of time if no construction tools are offered (e.g. stars, absorption of energy from external source) these things will decay from particles to non particle state energy.

Quote from: "Whitney"I'm not sure that proves no free will.

Some free will would be incredibly difficult to prove. You can not take a snapshot of a person and environment, let them operate, record the results, reset the person and environment back to the exact same state as the snapshot let them operate, record a second set of results and then compare the results.
For the results to be different you would assume some random factor to be in effect. Is that random factor "free will"?

A lot of people make their decisions based on their values (morals for a believer), as well as their understanding of a situation and how it pertains to their values. When decisions are based on values they are generally made with haste, when decisions are made with much investigation and consideration it is possible that values are reassessed, re-prioritised or changed, either that or the problem had high complexity and needed investigation to be sufficiently understood.

So a pertinent question would be:
Does the process of an investigation or the process of assessing ones values involve free will or is it simply implementing a rule set that has been established?

I think it is likely in the hypothetical above that the results of the two snapshots would be exactly the same.

An argument against this hypothetical would be that the free will is an expression of the person so the test would need a different person to validate free will.
So in another ridiculously impossible hypothetical we would install the snapshot onto a different person. Everything would be the same except for the person (soul for a believer).
My question here is where is the rule set stored? Is this within the material brain or within the person (soul)?
If this is within the brain then the compared results would be exactly the same.
If this is within the person (soul) then they would likely be different.

If the rule set is within the person (soul) can this rule set be changed and how?

BTW I think total free will is impossible due to the influence of genetics, environment, culture, language, upbringing, schooling, health, other external influences

Quote from: "iSok"About religion being intolerant or whatsoever, I completely disagree....
You read a book about women in Saudi Arabia and you concluded that it must be Islam..

The book I read was one female's experiences and her derived point of view of the treatment of women within Arabic and Islamic society. Not just Saudi Arabia but also Pakistan, Iran and other places, she often referred to the Qu'ran and the Hadith as source material. However this book expressed to me one person's point of view and I never take one point of view to be the whole truth. The reason why I bought the book is because I wanted to know more about the Islamic culture as I don't think the point of view expressed on the News or on western movies is accurate because they like to use the shocking and the attention getting stuff as this is what attracts the audience. I don't think it is political propaganda but simply what sells best.

Quote from: "iSok"I follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah, do you see me being intolerant?

I have not made a judgment based assessment of you.

If we just look at materialism. Then we are absolutely nothing more than a mass of atoms continuesly replaced and at the subject of nature.
We don't even 'exist', there's no free will.
Theoretically future events can be predicted, and you can't change the past.
An amazing illusion nonetheless that we humans posses a free will.


The other part, is the UNBELIEVABLE organisation out there. Personally it even more confirms the existence of God.
Basically someway all the matter, every particle in the universe knows it job and what to do for some reason.
The time, and angle of every particle is perfect when it bumps into another one.
It isn't chaos, it's perfectly ordered, perfection beyond our wildest dreams and intellect.

If I just take a look at a common housefly, I can think about it for hours and hours.
How do those zillions of particles perfectly do their job? It's like perfect teamwork, like a theatre.
Till the day that, that teamwork has to stop. And every particle in it's body is releases to form elsewhere another creation.
I really feel utterly humble when I think about it.

Beyond all this, everyone of us looks different, even if we are from the same race.
You could say DNA, but how come DNA forms this way? And that ATCG is the reason for this code.
But ATCG consists then again of different amino-acids..which again come from moleculs....atoms..nucleus...neutrons...quarks...etc...
 What is the driving mechanism? How do they know to do this?

Or the day, that we will die has already been settled. There's no escape from it.
For me personally, it explains very well some verses in the Qur'an which always looked strange to me.

If we just look at non-materialism. Then we would have to try and understand what is non-materialism. This would be concepts only and no physicality or existence.
Non materialism is non existence. If god and the human soul are non material then they do not exist, they are purley conceptual.

Quote from: "iSok"If we just look at materialism. Then we are absolutely nothing more than a mass of atoms continuesly replaced and at the subject of nature.
We don't even 'exist', there's no free will.
Theoretically future events can be predicted, and you can't change the past.
An amazing illusion nonetheless that we humans posses a free will.

I'm failing to see why this matters in respect to if a god exists....btw, good job using a 'random' thought about free will to set people up for the rest of your attempt to prove god...that was very, well, dishonest.

QuoteThe other part, is the UNBELIEVABLE organisation out there. Personally it even more confirms the existence of God.Basically someway all the matter, every particle in the universe knows it job and what to do for some reason.
The time, and angle of every particle is perfect when it bumps into another one.
It isn't chaos, it's perfectly ordered, perfection beyond our wildest dreams and intellect.

You not understanding how things work doesn't make anyone else have a reason to think a god did it; nor should it be a reason for you to make such an assumption...it just means there are things you don't understand.

QuoteIf I just take a look at a common housefly, I can think about it for hours and hours.
How do those zillions of particles perfectly do their job? It's like perfect teamwork, like a theatre.
Till the day that, that teamwork has to stop. And every particle in it's body is releases to form elsewhere another creation.
I really feel utterly humble when I think about it.

Yes, it is interesting to think about and quite amazing...but it's not like there isn't a scientific explanation for how something could become complex without evoking magic.

QuoteBeyond all this, everyone of us looks different, even if we are from the same race.
You could say DNA, but how come DNA forms this way? And that ATCG is the reason for this code.
But ATCG consists then again of different amino-acids..which again come from moleculs....atoms..nucleus...neutrons...quarks...etc...
 What is the driving mechanism? How do they know to do this?

Again, more stuff you simply don't know but you could learn about if you studied.

QuoteOr the day, that we will die has already been settled. There's no escape from it.

so what?  predetermined date or not we are all going to die some day.  basic fact of life.

QuoteFor me personally, it explains very well some verses in the Qur'an which always looked strange to me.

so you not understanding stuff makes the quran make more sense....that can't possibly be a good thing.

In the end its all just positive and negative, things may look like they are complex and must be put together in some intelligent way but it's really all just attraction of two basic opposing forces. When you look closely enough you see that everything follows that simple rule.

Quote from: "iSok"I often think about this, for example if the whole world can be explained
by materialism, so God would play no part and won't even exist.

Unless, of course, god is material. Is your conception of god so narrow as to not include the possibility that he might be material?

QuoteThen wouldn't that mean that we are senseless robots, you might think 'ehh....are you deluted [sic]?'.

Why would it mean that we are senseless robots? We clearly have senses, so at least part of your predicate is falsified.

QuoteI'll try to explain.

That would be good. Can't wait.

QuoteWe as humans still do not know what the most tiny particle is, we are already far beyond quarks.

Err, no. Quarks is as far as we've gotten yet. It could be that quarks are made of vibrating strings, or some other such esoterica we haven't elucidate yet, but at the moment, quarks is it, although we have particles that aren't made of quarks, namely electrons, which currently appear to be fundamental. The beauty of science, as opposed to unsupported wibble, is that it is open to change. The simple fact that you think that your wibble is the final word on anything is, contrary to your belief, actually a point against it. If it cannot be changed, it is invalid from a scientific perspective. Only that which is open to falsification can be accepted as reasonable. Anything unfalsifiable is, by definition, useless and unscientific.

QuoteIf science says, that every thought, every motion in your brain, is a consequence of
particular chemical reactions. Then how did those reactions start? And what action triggered that? And what action triggered that? and so on...and on..and on....
This would mean, that what my thoughts are at moment, the 'universe' already knew it 5 billion years ago.

Well, if the universe were entirely deterministic, you might actually be right. The only problem is that we can actually demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt that the universe doesn't fit this model. It isn't entirely deterministic. Of course, if you had paid any attention in your class on quantum mechanics, youo'd already know that your argument here is an ignorant strawman caricature of what the valid science actually says. The universe is not, indeed can not, be deterministic in the sense that you are describing here.

I will be happy to give you a course in the implications of quantum mechanics in order to address your abject ignorance with regard to this field of enquiry, the area of science that actually provides you with the means to erect this drivel on this forum.

QuoteBecause my thoughts are created because of certain chemical particles, those chemical particles already existed 5 billion years ago.

Ooh, I think you actually learned something of value! Yes, the energy/matter that makes up your brain did exist 5 billion, and 13.7 billion years ago, and probably a lot longer, although that latter is uncertain.

QuoteDoes this make sense? Every action has a rection, and that leads to another action, so basically if we just go by science, everything has already been pre-destined?

Oh dear. Still stuck in Laplace, are we? Science has moved on a fair bit since then. Clearly, though, apologetics hasn't.

QuoteWhere are the 'headquarters' of the human will? And what controlls that headquarter? Is there any 'headquarter'?

Well, if the universe is deterministic, the n humans don;'t actually have any will, free or otherwise.

As it happens, I think that free will is an illusion, although I don't necessarily think that that means that the universe is deterministic. You might want to do some research on a phenomenon known as 'priming'.

Here's a short video as an introduction:

[youtube:3qslnbik]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1OVhlRpwJc[/youtube:3qslnbik]

QuoteThat would mean that the particle that will cause your DNA in a certain cell to mutate, which means you will get cancer is already on it's journey
to reach you in a year or 15 so. And nothing is going to stop that particle, because every thought you have has already been pre-destined?

Whoah! Holy non-sequitur, Batman!

Certainly, nothing is going to stop that particle, but what does that have to do with thought? And indeed, what has that to do with the effect that that particle will have? Have you even heard of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle?

QuoteEven what I'm doing now, was already pre-destined.
Basically everything you do, whatever you think.

dealt with. Read up.

QuoteAnd in the midst of this chaos of billions and trillions of particles flying everywhere, we don't suddenly fall apart or decompose?

Oh, but we do, dear boy! Indeed, it could be argued that decomposition is precisely what we are doing from the age of 21 when we reach the growth cap. The imperfections in celle regeneration that cause aging are precisely equivalent to decomposition. Perhaps when you get to my age, and your back creaks, and your knees creak, and you really start to feel the weight of the years, you'll begin to understand. And I'm a fairly youthful 41 years old!

QuoteAnd somehow humanity advances through technology? Why do we advance?

Perhaps you've heard of this thing called learning? It means that we can pick up what our ancestors discovered and, not havng to go through the entire discovery process from scratch, we can apply what they learned and discover things they, including the ignorant, semi-literate, bronze-age nomads who wrote your holy books, couldn't even dream about. Could the moron who wrote your book, even being one of the shining intellects of his day, have elucidated quantum tunneling, which allows you to shower us all in his silly botty-water in the manner that you seem wont to do?

QuoteThat would mean that small particles change their behaviour...

No. The particles behave the same. Agglomerations of those particles, however, display emergent behaviour. 'Emergent' is a good word to look up. I find that it is a very difficult word for the credulous to grasp, and it's a pretty important word when dealing with both consciousness and the cosmos.

QuoteIt makes no sense...What is the source of our intelligence?

Argument from incredulity. The source of our intelligence is:

1. Accumulation of neurons
2. Accumulation of synaptic connections
3. Accumulation of experience

You talk as if intelligence is something special. Indeed, to us, it is, but only because that's the strategy our species alighted upon. What is special about it? What's special about the echolocation of bats? What's special about the sonar of whales? What's special about the ocular capacity of eagles?

From the perspective of the organism possessing those capabilities, they're all special. In reality, though, they're all just strategies, and tolls imparted by evolution. Nothing special abouot them when you look at it from the correct perspective.

QuoteFor example.

I decide for a certain reason to punch you in your face.

- My brains will send particles to my muscles
- I'll punch you
- You'll feel pain, because particles send a signal to your brain.
- You'll feel angry, because certain particles tell you to do so.

What I mean, there is a never ending action - reaction, something we can't get our grip on.

Ah, you would love to erect the Kalam Cosmological argument here, I can tell. Just get it over with, and we can kick it into touch. I know a good deal more about this argument than you do, and I also know a good deal more about cosmology. First cause arguments do not help your case, because I can demonstrate that that argument applies equally to your deity, while at least the root of my causality is at least something that can actually be demonstrated to exist.

If you want to go down this road, go for it, but it will be a short argument, and you will ultimately be embarassed.

QuoteSimply because we are a product of that process accroding to science.
So we as humans have nothing to say, and we can even calculate in the near feature what happened in the past
and what will happen in the future. By just making trillions calculations of particulars coliding, and looking what way they will go.

Nope, because the universe is not deterministic. Read above. Already dealt with this guff.

QuoteAnother example, so why did life on Earth start?

Why? Invalid and loaded question. Assumes a reason. Circular. No more need be said about this.

QuoteIf it happened just by chance,

It didn't happen by chance, but through well-defined natural mechanisms.

Quoteif it did..

It didn't.

QuoteThen why do we continue to progress?

Perhaps you've heard of this thing... It's called evolution.

Bored now. Skip to end.

QuoteNow, does this make sense? Or should I start taking pills?

Pills it is, then.

Edit: Tags

Quote from: "Whitney"I'm failing to see why this matters in respect to if a god exists....btw, good job using a 'random' thought about free will to set people up for the rest of your attempt to prove god...that was very, well, dishonest.

I wanted to know if you people ever thought about this. Before I presented as a PERSONAL evidence for God.

QuoteYou not understanding how things work doesn't make anyone else have a reason to think a god did it; nor should it be a reason for you to make such an assumption...it just means there are things you don't understand.

No one does, but pre-destintion is pretty much certain.
You don't know the answer either why it works, so you don't assume anything.
But you do know for some reason one thing; 'No way it can be God!!'.

QuoteYes, it is interesting to think about and quite amazing...but it's not like there isn't a scientific explanation for how something could become complex without evoking magic.

Science seems to be holy from you. Everything should be measured by science.
You can even be dreaming at the moment and not knowing it.

QuoteAgain, more stuff you simply don't know but you could learn about if you studied.

Whitney, no one on the entire world knows what I would like to know.
I want to know why particles decided to create life, what triggered them?
And why do these particles still continue? Why are they organised in a certain way?

For me the whole world, the universe seems a perfect play.
Not just life, but the way galaxy's develop, stars form and eventually end.
Why does matter move in this way and act this way? What is the blueprint?

Quoteso what?  predetermined date or not we are all going to die some day.  basic fact of life.

Not SOME day, but A day.

Quoteso you not understanding stuff makes the quran make more sense....that can't possibly be a good thing.

I couldn't see the evidence of certain verses. I can quote them if you want too.


@Hackinator, if you want me to respond, you can atleast try to leave your 'great' attitude out of your posts.

iSok...if you are going to consider studying the world around us objectively in order to understand it (aka science) "holy" then you are a waste of all of our time.

Glad to see you're still here. Please address my last post. The Kalam evisceration awaits.

Quote from: "Whitney"iSok...if you are going to consider studying the world around us objectively in order to understand it (aka science) "holy" then you are a waste of all of our time.

What do you mean, can you explain?

Quote from: "iSok"I want to know why particles decided to create life, what triggered them?

Particles don't decide anything, don't try and put a personality on to them. This would be an attempt at mythology.

Quote from: "iSok"And why do these particles still continue? Why are they organised in a certain way?

Forces - gravity for example

Quote from: "hackenslash"Glad to see you're still here. Please address my last post. The Kalam evisceration awaits.

Read my post above and post a new reply.

Quote from: "Stevil"Forces - gravity for example

But gravity is also the cause of mass..particles. And what else 'triggers' them?

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "hackenslash"Glad to see you're still here. Please address my last post. The Kalam evisceration awaits.

Read my post above and post a new reply.

I read your post above. Deal with mine, which was extensive, and dealt with much guff that you posted. Is your tactic here to be simple evasion of the objections? That won't win you any friends here.

Address my post, please.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Whitney"iSok...if you are going to consider studying the world around us objectively in order to understand it (aka science) "holy" then you are a waste of all of our time.

What do you mean, can you explain?

Really!?

Quote from: "iSok"But gravity is also the cause of mass..particles.

Is it, indeed? The you know a whole hell of a lot more about physics than I do, along with ALL of the world's particle physicists! You should publish your results, as a Nobel prize awaits?

Here we are spending billions of dollars on particle accelerators looking for the Higgs-boson, and evidence of the HIggs field, while you had the answer all along!

Would you like to try again? Perhaps in your next attempt you could display a smidgeon less ignorance of physics.

Now, how about my post? Any danger of doing anything other than running away from that?

I think I've come to a conclusion -- for now.

Free will is probably an illusion, but we should live our lives as if it exists.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I think I've come to a conclusion -- for now.

Free will is probably an illusion, but we should live our lives as if it exists.

Doesn't matter does it? You can't choose to act differently if it is true and you probably wouldn't act differently if it weren't true.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I think I've come to a conclusion -- for now.

Free will is probably an illusion, but we should live our lives as if it exists.

Doesn't matter does it? You can't choose to act differently if it is true and you probably wouldn't act differently if it weren't true.

Not necessarily. I think one is inclined to do, and be more permissible towards, "unethical" acts if one has a deterministic perspective. I can link to some studies if you'd like.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Not necessarily. I think one is inclined to do, and be more permissible towards, "unethical" acts if one has a deterministic perspective. I can link to some studies if you'd like.

If accepting that everything is determined changes how someone acts, doesn't that imply a non-deterministic nature? Otherwise the new information determines (along with all the other determinants), how a person acts and there is still no choice in the matter. If you accept that everything is determined, then there is no choice, if you think that one can choose to be more permissible to "unethical" acts by accepting determinism, then there is at least one thing that is not determined.

Quote from: "iSok"We as humans still do not know what the most tiny particle is, we are already far beyond quarks.

Do you have a reference to this?  

QuoteIf science says, that every thought, every motion in your brain, is a consequence of
particular chemical reactions. Then how did those reactions start? And what action triggered that? And what action triggered that? and so on...and on..and on....
This would mean, that what my thoughts are at moment, the 'universe' already knew it 5 billion years ago.

Not quite. The universe doesn't know anything but your thoughts were not known or even determined 5 billion years ago. The most you could say is that they were in the process of being determined in some ways.

QuoteBecause my thoughts are created because of certain chemical particles, those chemical particles already existed 5 billion years ago.

Does this make sense? Every action has a rection, and that leads to another action, so basically if we just go by science, everything has already been pre-destined?

Not predestined, per se. It's more like Determinism. I consider myself a Determinist but there are a lot of possibilities and probabilities to consider before saying everything now was set as far back as 15 billion years ago.

QuoteWhere are the 'headquarters' of the human will? And what controlls that headquarter? Is there any 'headquarter'?

The brain is the headquarters for all human thought. But I don't believe in freewill.

QuoteThat would mean that the particle that will cause your DNA in a certain cell to mutate, which means you will get cancer is already on it's journey
to reach you in a year or 15 so. And nothing is going to stop that particle, because every thought you have has already been pre-destined?

This sounds like everything in life. Stuff happens which you have no control over.

QuoteEven what I'm doing now, was already pre-destined.
Basically everything you do, whatever you think.

Nietzsche's Eternal Reccurrence:

“What if a demon were to creep after you one night, in your loneliest loneliness, and say, 'This life which you live must be lived by you once again and innumerable times more; and every pain and joy and thought and sigh must come again to you, all in the same sequence. The eternal hourglass will again and again be turned and you with it, dust of the dust!' Would you throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse that demon? Or would you answer, 'Never have I heard anything more divine'?”

I've never heard anything more divine.  

QuoteIt makes no sense...What is the source of our intelligence?

Our brain.

QuoteIf it happened just by chance, if it did..
Then why do we continue to progress?

No one hear in so few words can explain evolution more eloquently than the books that are already on the shelves but I will say

1. It is not by pure chance.
2. Natural selection is a process with no off button.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Not necessarily. I think one is inclined to do, and be more permissible towards, "unethical" acts if one has a deterministic perspective. I can link to some studies if you'd like.

If accepting that everything is determined changes how someone acts, doesn't that imply a non-deterministic nature? Otherwise the new information determines (along with all the other determinants), how a person acts and there is still no choice in the matter. If you accept that everything is determined, then there is no choice, if you think that one can choose to be more permissible to "unethical" acts by accepting determinism, then there is at least one thing that is not determined.

A study. (http://psp.sagepub.com/content/35/2/260.short)

QuoteLaypersons' belief in free will may foster a sense of thoughtful reflection and willingness to exert energy, thereby promoting helpfulness and reducing aggression, and so disbelief in free will may make behavior more reliant on selfish, automatic impulses and therefore less socially desirable. Three studies tested the hypothesis that disbelief in free will would be linked with decreased helping and increased aggression. In Experiment 1, induced disbelief in free will reduced willingness to help others. Experiment 2 showed that chronic disbelief in free will was associated with reduced helping behavior. In Experiment 3, participants induced disbelief in free will caused participants to act more aggressively than others. Although the findings do not speak to the existence of free will, the current results suggest that disbelief in free will reduces helping and increases aggression.

Too bad you have to pay to see the full study. Maybe I could find one where they show you more details for free.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"A study. (http://psp.sagepub.com/content/35/2/260.short)

QuoteLaypersons' belief in free will may foster a sense of thoughtful reflection and willingness to exert energy, thereby promoting helpfulness and reducing aggression, and so disbelief in free will may make behavior more reliant on selfish, automatic impulses and therefore less socially desirable. Three studies tested the hypothesis that disbelief in free will would be linked with decreased helping and increased aggression. In Experiment 1, induced disbelief in free will reduced willingness to help others. Experiment 2 showed that chronic disbelief in free will was associated with reduced helping behavior. In Experiment 3, participants induced disbelief in free will caused participants to act more aggressively than others. Although the findings do not speak to the existence of free will, the current results suggest that disbelief in free will reduces helping and increases aggression.

Too bad you have to pay to see the full study. Maybe I could find one where they show you more details for free.

Thanks for sharing that LS. It's similar to this psychology study (http://scientopia.org/blogs/scicurious/2010/12/15/we-really-do-believe-weve-got-more-free-will-than-the-other-guy/) I came across a while ago on how people feel as though they have more freewill than others and the importance of believing that.