Happy Atheist Forum

One thing I have always questioned is whether or not the priests (insert any other label here) believe what they preach? Are they just puppets used to brainwash the masses?  Or are they actually honest with themselves as they "spread the word of god"?

Where does the money actually go that they collect during service? What is the Pope's real story? The deception of religion is so apparent to me that I naturally question the people that lead the church.

Quote from: "RyB17"One thing I have always questioned is whether or not the priests (insert any other label here) believe what they preach? Are they just puppets used to brainwash the masses?  Or are they actually honest with themselves as they "spread the word of god"?

Where does the money actually go that they collect during service? What is the Pope's real story? The deception of religion is so apparent to me that I naturally question the people that lead the church.

Well one thing experience has revealed to me is that everybody is unique and as such applying binary conditions like this or that is generally a mistake. People's motivations vary over time as well, what starts out as a vocation can end up as a way to pay the mortgage. Some may start out in the priesthood for all the right reasons (from their perspective) but others may do it because they are expected to because of family history. The former may become disillusioned while the latter may grow into their commitment.

Collection money usually goes to the upkeep of the material of the building.

I have in the past speculated that all the major religions are run by very bright evil atheists that have realised they are on to a good thing!

I agree with you. It is hard for me to understand how the people high up in the religious organisation can continue to believe in a god.
When a man gets voted in as pope and realises that god is still not talking to him. Then he also realises that he can change the rules without needing god to tell him what is OK or not.
Also when people realise where all the money goes and when they find themselves needing to lie to other people just to manipulate them into believing in god or to keep their faith.

I can't see that many people at the top would actually believe in god

Quote from: "Tank"Collection money usually goes to the upkeep of the material of the building.

Have you been inside the Vatican? When I was looking at a Michaelangelo marble statue and then saw a small wooden box in front labeled "offerings" I felt repulsed.
I understand that lots of very poor people give their hard to come by money to the church, and then the church goes and builds another marble statue of the next pope.

Quote from: "Stevil"

Quote from: "Tank"Collection money usually goes to the upkeep of the material of the building.

Have you been inside the Vatican? When I was looking at a Michaelangelo marble statue and then saw a small wooden box in front labeled "offerings" I felt repulsed.
I understand that lots of very poor people give their hard to come by money to the church, and then the church goes and builds another marble statue of the next pope.

I agree. I think the Catholic church is simply an organisation obsessed with its own aggrandisement.

Quote from: "Tank"Well one thing experience has revealed to me is that everybody is unique and as such applying binary conditions like this or that is generally a mistake. People's motivations vary over time as well, what starts out as a vocation can end up as a way to pay the mortgage. Some may start out in the priesthood for all the right reasons (from their perspective) but others may do it because they are expected to because of family history. The former may become disillusioned while the latter may grow into their commitment.

Collection money usually goes to the upkeep of the material of the building.

I have in the past speculated that all the major religions are run by very bright evil atheists that have realised they are on to a good thing!

I have often thought the exact same thing about powerful religious figures. They know what they have and they'll continue to use it to climb their religious "power ladder".

Thanks for responding Tank. I really understand and appreciate your posts on this forum. I'm starting to really learn more about myself here. Its almost relieving to read about people who have gone through this before me. I never really believed but I never brought it up to anyone because I didn't want to be thought of as a bad person.

I'm a good guy. I feel like I do good deeds for people because its the right thing to do, not to reserve a spot in heaven for myself. I'm starting to understand the last bit of me.

Well I'm glad to have been of help  

Quote from: "Tank"Well I'm glad to have been of help  

Your post in the thread "Just a lil advice for new atheist" was huge for me. Thanks

I used to think those inquisition priests couldn't have done what they did, and still truly believe heaven would be open to them.
And the crusades, going off to slaughter Muslins in god's name, what were they thinking?
But then I was thinking about Jesus meek and mild, turns out this was just a modern marketing strategy, dear old Jesus can be as wrathful as the smitiest of them.
Oh and I don't think you should underestimate peoples ability to contain contradictory ideas.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"I used to think those inquisition priests couldn't have done what they did, and still truly believe heaven would be open to them.
And the crusades, going off to slaughter Muslins in god's name, what were they thinking?

Well, the thing with Inquisitors was that they ere doing Gods work (or so they believed), and it was supported by the Pope. Back in the middle ages up until 1500-1600's, Pope=God basicly. What the Pope anted, went. the best example is an Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire (Germany and then some) ho was excommunicated, and he travelled to the Alps and begged for the Popes forgiveness. THAT is how powerful the Popes used to be. Thank God that's over though. And so, since the Inq. was doing a "holy work", they really believed that they had nothing to fear after death.  :P

http://headville.net/2011/01/27/three-priests-and-in-the-woods-part-one/#comments

Let's be honest with ourselves here. What is the Church - any church, in fact?

A business. That's it. A glorified, untaxed business dedicated to gaining as many customers as possible.

As such, I view the Church's priests the same way I would a telemarketer or other salesman trying to intrude into my life.

Quote from: "terranus"Let's be honest with ourselves here. What is the Church - any church, in fact?

A business. That's it. A glorified, untaxed business dedicated to gaining as many customers as possible.

As such, I view the Church's priests the same way I would a telemarketer or other salesman trying to intrude into my life.

So the real question is, "do they really, honestly believe in their product?" and the answer is, "makes no difference."

Quote from: "elliebean"So the real question is, "do they really, honestly believe in their product?" and the answer is, "makes no difference."

Here is a famous quote from the ex CEO of NZ Telecom, one of the biggest companies in our country. Seems related to the Religion business model.
http://publicaddress.net/assets/sm/3147/79/teresacut.mp3

Quote from: "RyB17"One thing I have always questioned is whether or not the priests (insert any other label here) believe what they preach? Are they just puppets used to brainwash the masses?  Or are they actually honest with themselves as they "spread the word of god"?

Where does the money actually go that they collect during service? What is the Pope's real story? The deception of religion is so apparent to me that I naturally question the people that lead the church.

I have some serious conflicts with Catholicism in general.  For starters, the Apocrypha was assembled by Jerome who even quoted, "these books (apocrypha) are not inspired by God."  From these books are where you get ideas such as purgatory and the practice of indulgences, which are completely heretical. So from the Catholic church's perspective, they did want to retain power early in Church history.  But you have great theologians like Martin Luther and St. Augustine who defied corruption of the Church, and correctly correlated the gospel to the people. To say they were the only ones would be foolish, but they are some of the most prominent.  Along with the reformation, there was a catholic reformation as well, but instead of understanding salvation as faith alone, it became faith and works.  So doctrinally, I completely disagree with Catholicism, it's not about doing good, its about knowing God, and everything else comes from that.

As for the money collected, we have seen in some Prosperity "pastors" (if thats what you wanna call them) the money goes into private jets, mansions, etc. But with the other congregations, it could go into more honest funds such as the helping the homeless/poor, establishing programs, mission trips, etc.  As for the pope, we live in a post-Christ era of understanding God, I have my strong (biblical) doubts that the Pope is the closest man to God or somehow God's mouthpiece.  To answer the question, the pope was originally used to set as a hierarchal scheme to help keep order and authority in the church.

There is no easy, uncomplicated answer for this.  History is a witness that there have been many in the higher leadership that simply used the post to their own devices.  They used the fact that the little people believed they were God's messenger to get these people to do their will, and pass it off as God's will.  There have also been a countless many who have truly believed and tried to do what they feel is right according to the doctrines.  I studied at a Jesuit university.  Jesuits are, by Catholic standards, very progressive.  They have universities around the world and their mission is to educate.  I spoke with many very intelligent Catholic priests who had graduate degrees in subjects such as physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology, and history.  From the perspective of someone who does not believe in god due to science, it would seem insane to believe in a god with all of that education.  However, these men believed in god even with all that education, enough so that they had given up sex for life!  (believe it or not, most of them actually never have sex).  As for the lack of actual communication with god, they feel that god's form of communication is by revealing himself through life or feeling.  A priest will pray and pray, and when choices come up he will choose based on how he feels his heart leads him, and trust that it's god working through his heart to make the right decisions, or say the right things, or take the right action.  They believe nothing is truly random, and when coincidences happen, that's also god working in the world.

I used to believe that god answered all prayers, that sometimes the answer was just no.  However, that's not what the bible actually says.  If faith of a mustard seed could move a mountain, I should have been able to move a few planets.  The guy next to me on the plane Saturday prayed that he could make it home that night so that he could be there for his nephew's birth.  We're still in an airport in another country two days later because the plane broke down, and there's no telling if we'll even make it out tonight.  By the time he gets home his nephew will be home from the hospital.  He will take it as god's will, of course, probably that god did this so when he saw his nephew for the first time he wouldn't have to share with a large group of other people already there to see him.  He will look at it as god revealing himself through the plane breaking down, instead of through audible words.