Happy Atheist Forum

Hey all, I just had a conversation with an old friend who I hadn't talked to since highschool. We began talking about science because he is majoring in geological science. We began talking about robotics and their future, naturally I began talking about the road I see the field taking which was in a nutshell a breakdown of transhumanism. He is a Christian however he believes in evolution, big bang theory, etc. He is a very logical person so what his response surprised me. He asked me how can I have the audacity to even fathom harnessing that sort of "power"? He argued that the sort of evolution I believe humanity may take is playing god and circumventing god's plans.

So I responded with how the whole basis of abrahmic religion is to make humans feel special in the universe and why is that okay in comparison to simply wanting to take a bit of control over our place in the universe, accepting that we aren't special but  taking control of what evolution has dictated for billion's of years so that we can defend ourselves from the cold reality of our existence? I was wondering what one of my favorite communties felt about it, so please, share your thoughts.

Why is it wrong to "play God"?

If it's bad to do things on our own, then, logically, we shouldn't do anything. At all.

"Hey! Mister! Stop building that house! It's telling God that you don't need him and don't trust him to take care of you! It's circumventing his plan for your life!"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"He argued that the sort of evolution I believe humanity may take is playing god and circumventing god's plans.

Is it possible to circumvent the omnipotent god's plan?

How the hell does he know transhumanism isn't part of his god's plans? Does he consider himself a prophet or something? Tell him he's standing in the way of his god's transhumanist plans for us.

He's okay with computers, cars, and airplanes, but arbitrarily draws a line at anything new.

Does he think our pathetic technology threatens his god?

I'm not quite sure, I believe there is a gray here as he likes technolgical advancement, as long as the human body is left to biology, I can't really say. I think it isn't so much what we would gain as much as that immortality and various superhuman qualities will greatly diminish religions' place in the world as all of the wonderful technological advances from the past 150 years we take for granted have done. I don't think he thinks about this consciously but something lurks in his psyche and perhaps many other religious people as well. Portions of evangelicals want to dictate how everyone lives their lives, I think their greatest fear isn't change itself but the diminishing of what makes them feel "special". This is just an opinion and by no means a judgment on all religious people but from my experience so far I have yet to meet a religious person who doesn't balk or at the least show fear or apprehension at trans-humanism.

I think the natural fears anyone has on tampering with our genetics or implanting non-medical tech devices into our bodies and have something go terribly, horribly wrong are being translated by your friend as going against God's plan.  Maybe your friend has been pre-warned about what stance to take on transhumanism and genetic manipulation in general. Or maybe it's easier to just say 'Jesus doesn't want it!' than to say 'This scares the living shit out of me.'  At any rate it's almost akin to me saying 'Jesus hates wool!' because personally wool sweaters make me itch.  The kind of tech we have now didn't exist in biblical times and believers are only extrapolating their own personal beliefs into 'What God really wants me to do!'.  Though just to be a thorn, I would argue that transhumanism should not cause any problems whatsoever for the Abrahamists as the whole circumcision thing is a great example of body modification for health and hygiene reasons.

Anyway, forget about the god stuff, think about the reality.   Transhumanism gets into some pretty scary areas.  We don't always know what will happen with genetic manipulation, and it would be downright naive and hubristic to say that we do.  Medical implantation gets problematic even in very necessary and well practiced situations like hip replacement and heart valve replacements.  There are major issues here with safety of materials, immune rejection and wear and tear.  So while I might personally long for cuttlefish chromatophores, I am fully aware that this has to remain a tounge in cheek desire for reasons of safety and perhaps unrelated to this thread, the priority of fixing real medical problems before artistic ones.  Although I'm starting to think that I might just want to be solar powered as well like that oriental wasp.

I think we still have a long, long way to go before we can actually turn any Transhumanist dream into a reality.  Look at the controversy surrounding GMO's, look at implantation of medical devices, look at immune rejection, look at the number of lawsuits there are regarding medications that have had nasty unintended side effects.  It's isn't something to go into lightly.  But it also isn't something to look at as taboo and make a religious excuse over since the potentials are amazing.

Just take away his glasses, blackberry, aol account, computer, clothes, vaccines, etc... then drop him in the middle of the jungle.

How many of us could truly survive without all of our augmentation (both internal and external).

Man has been tampering with evolution for centuries, and the line is just getting more blurred.

Transhumanism will happen.  It's only a matter of time, creativity, and investment.

Quote from: "Ultima22689"I'm not quite sure, I believe there is a gray here as he likes technolgical advancement, as long as the human body is left to biology, I can't really say. I think it isn't so much what we would gain as much as that immortality and various superhuman qualities will greatly diminish religions' place in the world as all of the wonderful technological advances from the past 150 years we take for granted have done. I don't think he thinks about this consciously but something lurks in his psyche and perhaps many other religious people as well. Portions of evangelicals want to dictate how everyone lives their lives, I think their greatest fear isn't change itself but the diminishing of what makes them feel "special". This is just an opinion and by no means a judgment on all religious people but from my experience so far I have yet to meet a religious person who doesn't balk or at the least show fear or apprehension at trans-humanism.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here.

Religion, and ideology in general, resists change and revolution because it threatens that religions place and power in the world. Of course many religious people are going to oppose it -- just like the Catholic Church opposed Galileo's discoveries about heliocentrism, and so forth.

Quote from: "joeactor"Just take away his glasses, blackberry, aol account, computer, clothes, vaccines, etc... then drop him in the middle of the jungle.

How many of us could truly survive without all of our augmentation (both internal and external).

Man has been tampering with evolution for centuries, and the line is just getting more blurred.

Transhumanism will happen.  It's only a matter of time, creativity, and investment.

This is usually what I try to explain to people. All animals have their own way to survive. Orca hunt seals, rats scavange, humans manipulate their enviornment via highly sophisticated tools, it's our trump card for survival and it's done a damn good job. To try and hold ourselves back is like trying to stop breathing. We can't do it, people try to label technology as unnatural because it's man made yet it's our natural mechanism for survival, it's like declawing a cat and putting it in the wild, expecting it to survive or a shellless turtle. it makes no sense...wait, I think there is another thread touching on this.

Dude, I'm ready for my cyborg body now.

QuoteIf it's bad to do things on our own, then, logically, we shouldn't do anything. At all.

Eh...the terms "good" and "bad" are only useful as relative terms. There is no such thing as overall "good" and "bad". Only what "is" and "isn't".

Quote from: "terranus"

QuoteIf it's bad to do things on our own, then, logically, we shouldn't do anything. At all.

Eh...the terms "good" and "bad" are only useful as relative terms. There is no such thing as overall "good" and "bad". Only what "is" and "isn't".

I know that. I'm talking in terms of the Christian perspective.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I know that. I'm talking in terms of the Christian perspective.

Ah, well right there see you messed up. You tried to make sense out of religion by using logic. But according to Christianity, "logic" is a tool of the devil, so your argument to not do anything at all is automatically considered null and void by Christians because you used logic to come up with it.  

I agree with joeactor.  If we survive long enough as a species, we'll most likely become several species through the use of technology of various kinds, thus transhumanism.  Audacious?  Damn straight; audacity is one of the things which distinguishes our species from the rest of those with which we share the planet.  I think it's sensible to be aware that audacity can easily become hubris, though.  The potential for disaster lurks that way, and you can hardly blame those who feel apprehension regarding this subject.  Still, I think it would be great to see at least the beginnings of true transhumanism.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote from: "terranus"Ah, well right there see you messed up. You tried to make sense out of religion by using logic. But according to Christianity, "logic" is a tool of the devil, so your argument to not do anything at all is automatically considered null and void by Christians because you used logic to come up with it.  

I beg to differ.  While there are some versions of Christianity which seem intent on rejecting logic, and perhaps there are even a few which consider it a "tool of the devil," I would not tar the whole of Christianity with that brush.  There have been, and continue to be, great logicians who are Christian.  They've constructed quite respectable edifices of logic which explore and defend Christianity.  That such intellectual soldiers for Christ start with premises with which you and I may disagree doesn't mean that they are illogical, and such thinkers are definitely not anti-logic. Nor is Christianity as a whole.

Quote from: "Recusant"I agree with joeactor.  If we survive long enough as a species, we'll most likely become several species through the use of technology of various kinds, thus transhumanism.  Audacious?  Damn straight; audacity is one of the things which distinguishes our species from the rest of those with which we share the planet.  I think it's sensible to be aware that audacity can easily become hubris, though.  The potential for disaster lurks that way, and you can hardly blame those who feel apprehension regarding this subject.  Still, I think it would be great to see at least the beginnings of true transhumanism.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote from: "terranus"Ah, well right there see you messed up. You tried to make sense out of religion by using logic. But according to Christianity, "logic" is a tool of the devil, so your argument to not do anything at all is automatically considered null and void by Christians because you used logic to come up with it.  

I beg to differ.  While there are some versions of Christianity which seem intent on rejecting logic, and perhaps there are even a few which consider it a "tool of the devil," I would not tar the whole of Christianity with that brush.  There have been, and continue to be, great logicians who are Christian.  They've constructed quite respectable edifices of logic which explore and defend Christianity.  That such intellectual soldiers for Christ start with premises with which you and I may disagree doesn't mean that they are illogical, and such thinkers are definitely not anti-logic. Nor is Christianity as a whole.

I wholly agree with you, we need to be aware of those sort of dangers and try our best to make sure that they never happen. It's better than calling it some evil thing god would have  a problem with although I don't blame my friend for that, he also argued some of those disasters as points before presenting the religious one. My friend is a very logical person and I can respect the realistic danger scenarios that are presented as arguments against, that's why I offer ways to avoid them to him and how it's natural that new levels of technology like this usually always carry some sort of negative aspect but they can be avoided if people handle the issue right by thinking of solutions instead of  believing that humanity should somehow stop doing what we've evolved to do, it just baffles me and I think it's something I may never understand.

http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jpbonsen ... anism.html (http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/jpbonsen/extropianism.html)

EXTROPY -- A measure of intelligence, information, energy, vitality, experience, diversity, opportunity, and growth.
EXTROPIANISM -- The philosophy that seeks to increase extropy.

THE EXTROPIAN PRINCIPLES 2.5
( Full v. 2.5 appears in Extropy #11, 2nd Half 1993)

BOUNDLESS EXPANSION: Seeking more intelligence, wisdom, and effectiveness, an unlimited lifespan, and the removal of political, cultural, biological, and psychological limits to self-actualization and self-realization. Perpetually overcoming constraints on our progress and possibilities. Expanding into the universe and advancing without end.

SELF-TRANSFORMATION: Affirming continual psychological, intellectual, and physical self-improvement, through reason and critical thinking, personal responsibility, and experimentation. Seeking biological and neurological augmentation.

DYNAMIC OPTIMISM: Positive expectations fueling dynamic action. Adopting a rational, action-based optimism, shunning both blind faith and stagnant pessimism.

INTELLIGENT TECHNOLOGY: Applying science and technology creatively to transcend "natural" limits imposed by our biological heritage, culture, and environment.

SPONTANEOUS ORDER: Supporting decentralized, voluntaristic social coordination processes. Fostering tolerance, diversity, foresight, personal responsibility and individual liberty.
Extropianism is a transhumanist philosophy: Like humanism, it values reason and humanity and sees no grounds for belief in unknowable, supernatural forces externally controlling our destiny, but transhumanism goes further in urging us to push beyond the merely human stage of evolution. As physicist Freeman Dyson has said: "Humanity looks to me like a magnificent beginning but not the final word."

E X T R O P Y:  
THE JOURNAL OF TRANSHUMANIST THOUGHT
Transhumanism, futurist philosophy
Life extension, immortalism, and biostasis
Smart drugs and other intelligence-intensifying technologies
Machine intelligence, personality uploading, and artificial life
Nanocomputers and molecular nanotechnology
Memetics (ideas as replicating agents)
Experimental free communities in space, on the oceans, & in cyberspace
Effective thinking, information-filtering, life management
Self-transformative psychology
Spontaneous order (free markets, neural networks, evolutionary processes, genetic algorithms, etc)
Privacy technologies, electronic markets, digital money
Critical analysis of environmentalism
Explorations of the ultimate limits of physics
Since 1988, Extropy has provided a unique forum for intriguing and inspiring explorations of advanced and future technologies, focusing on their potential for overcoming present human limits, enabling us to create a posthuman future. If you're tired of shallow, trendy, or uncritical thinking on the technological frontier, Extropy will satisfy, startle, and stimulate you.
----------------------------------------
I've been an advocate of extropianism for around ten years now.

Non-biological units have been extending or correcting functions of our bodies for a surprisingly long time. Currently we are using Cochlear implants, heart pacemakers, kidney dialysis machines and external blood circulators in operating rooms, just to identify a few of the more obvious.

It is inevitable that nanotechnology and new materials will extend our lives considerably before this century is ended.

Extropian

Quote from: "joeactor"Just take away his glasses, blackberry, aol account, computer, clothes, vaccines, etc... then drop him in the middle of the jungle.

How many of us could truly survive without all of our augmentation (both internal and external).

Man has been tampering with evolution for centuries, and the line is just getting more blurred.

Transhumanism will happen.  It's only a matter of time, creativity, and investment.

That's exactly what I want to do to some of the most extreme environmentalists.  I mean the ones who protest coal power plants because of greenhouse gasses, nuclear power plants because of radioactive waste, and solar, wind, and hydroelectric power plants because of how they may change ecological systems or inhibit migrations of animals.  There are some environmentalists who protest every method of generating electricity.  Just don't take away their I-pads, otherwise you won't see their protests in their blogs.

I'm excited about transhumanism.  I can't wait to see Ted Williams' head on a robotic body hitting home runs at the new Fenway Park on Mars in the year 2236.

QuoteThat's exactly what I want to do to some of the most extreme environmentalists. I mean the ones who protest coal power plants because of greenhouse gasses, nuclear power plants because of radioactive waste, and solar, wind, and hydroelectric power plants because of how they may change ecological systems or inhibit migrations of animals. There are some environmentalists who protest every method of generating electricity. Just don't take away their I-pads, otherwise you won't see their protests in their blogs.

I'm excited about transhumanism. I can't wait to see Ted Williams' head on a robotic body hitting home runs at the new Fenway Park on Mars in the year 2236.

Ahem. As an environmentalist, I can tell you that

1. Nuclear Power is fine, as long as it's managed properly and proper precautions are taken to make sure meltdowns can be averted in the wake of a natural disaster (see Japan). However,
2. There is no such thing as "clean coal", and if you think coal-powered plants are not contributing to the demise of our natural environment, then you sir, are living under a rock.

Quote from: "terranus"

QuoteThat's exactly what I want to do to some of the most extreme environmentalists. I mean the ones who protest coal power plants because of greenhouse gasses, nuclear power plants because of radioactive waste, and solar, wind, and hydroelectric power plants because of how they may change ecological systems or inhibit migrations of animals. There are some environmentalists who protest every method of generating electricity. Just don't take away their I-pads, otherwise you won't see their protests in their blogs.

I'm excited about transhumanism. I can't wait to see Ted Williams' head on a robotic body hitting home runs at the new Fenway Park on Mars in the year 2236.

Ahem. As an environmentalist, I can tell you that

1. Nuclear Power is fine, as long as it's managed properly and proper precautions are taken to make sure meltdowns can be averted in the wake of a natural disaster (see Japan). However,
2. There is no such thing as "clean coal", and if you think coal-powered plants are not contributing to the demise of our natural environment, then you sir, are living under a rock.

I never said coal was clean.  My point is that there are environmentalists who will argue against every method of generating electricity because it affects the environment somehow.  Those are the ones we should strip naked and drop off in the Amazon.  Or perhaps to be more fair, just make them live in an Amish community.

Then as a technology-geek, I will agree with you.

I see it almost as a given that inorganic chemistry should complement organic chemistry............that inorganic technology should complement organic technology.............that inorganic machines should complement shorter-lived organic machines.

What should prevail in the long run is our mind, our identy, interaction and intercourse and the physical ability to ensure we live comfortably.

This will not necessarily be done as we envisage it today.

Extropian

Quote from: "Extropian"I see it almost as a given that inorganic chemistry should complement organic chemistry............that inorganic technology should complement organic technology.............that inorganic machines should complement shorter-lived organic machines.

What should prevail in the long run is our mind, our identy, interaction and intercourse and the physical ability to ensure we live comfortably.

This will not necessarily be done as we envisage it today.

Extropian

Yeah... until inorganic takes over organic on judgment day with the rise of the machines.  At that point we'll hope for some John or another to come along and give us hope of salvation.  Gotta go to work for now but I'll be back.

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "Extropian"I see it almost as a given that inorganic chemistry should complement organic chemistry............that inorganic technology should complement organic technology.............that inorganic machines should complement shorter-lived organic machines.

What should prevail in the long run is our mind, our identy, interaction and intercourse and the physical ability to ensure we live comfortably.

This will not necessarily be done as we envisage it today.

Extropian

Yeah... until inorganic takes over organic on judgment day with the rise of the machines.  At that point we'll hope for some John or another to come along and give us hope of salvation.  Gotta go to work for now but I'll be back.

Except we'll be the machines...

Quote from: "Ultima22689"

Quote from: "fester30"

Quote from: "Extropian"I see it almost as a given that inorganic chemistry should complement organic chemistry............that inorganic technology should complement organic technology.............that inorganic machines should complement shorter-lived organic machines.

What should prevail in the long run is our mind, our identy, interaction and intercourse and the physical ability to ensure we live comfortably.

This will not necessarily be done as we envisage it today.

Extropian

Yeah... until inorganic takes over organic on judgment day with the rise of the machines.  At that point we'll hope for some John or another to come along and give us hope of salvation.  Gotta go to work for now but I'll be back.

Except we'll be the machines...

There will be certain biological functions that would be considered irreplaceable if we wish to retain our individuality.

First we need to understand what comprises an individual that makes him/her separate from another and preserve that as a digital code and/or perhaps as a DNA sequence. DNA combinations are not infinite so unless we can learn new ways then we must learn how to preserve and store these combinations and recreate the individual. The consequence otherwise is oblivion for humankind.

If we are to succeed then a kind of immortality for the individual is the inevitable result if DNA combinations are mathematically finite.

In conjunction with this we must consider the possibility of parallel universes or learn how to reverse the entropy of the one we inhabit.

It may be that the four fundamental forces of physics must accommodate a fifth. What is our Universe expanding into?