Happy Atheist Forum

never thought it would be that hard for you people.

Eventually we all have our way of life.
But let's not forget, that we always should strive for knowledge, and we should always be open-minded.



For life is school.

Why is it that you did not think it would be difficult?

I closed the report on this, but have no idea what is going on.

Quote from: "iSok"never thought it would be that hard for you people.

Eventually we all have our way of life.
But let's not forget, that we always should strive for knowledge, and we should always be open-minded.



For life is school.

I've been shunned, had my tires slashed, and my cats killed because I am an atheist.  People have been bullied, lost their jobs, lost relationships with friends and family, have had their lives threatened, and have even been killed because of their atheism - and that's here in the US.  We have good reason to worry about how we will be received when we tell others about our atheism.

ehhhh......what just happened?
never mind............

Quote from: "iSok"ehhhh......what just happened?
never mind............

I asked that your post on the 'How to tell your family you are an atheist thread' be moved to its own thread as it was very likely to cause a derail there.

My mother knows and possibly my dad, they won't care about it too much, even with their shortcomings they're good parents but I fear the rest of my family would disown me in a heartbeat if I came out the closet that i'm gay for science and not jesus.

Quote from: "iSok"never thought it would be that hard for you people.

Well you should read Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali) it give a very good insight from the Muslim perspective. I found it very interesting read.

Quote from: "iSok"Eventually we all have our way of life.

Not if it is cut short by a religious fundamentalist flying an aircraft into a building, or bombing a night-club, or bombing a bus, or bombing a train etc et al.

Quote from: "iSok"But let's not forget, that we always should strive for knowledge, and we should always be open-minded.

Being open-minded means listening to other people's ideas. Being sensible, sceptical and rational is what allows one to choose which idea to agree with and those to discard as mumbo-jumbo mythology. If you already know the answer, and I think you do think you know the answer, then you are the most closed minded you could possibly be. So take some of your own advice and open your mind to the possibility that you could be wrong. I accept that there could be a deity as I can't prove there isn't one. But that does not mean I am in any way convinced there is a deity as nobody as yet come within giving me coherent and demonstrable evidence for the existance of the supernatural realm, and until they do I will continue not to believe in something for which there is no evidence.

Quote from: "iSok"For life is school.

And some pupils are just so stupid they may as well not attend because they just are not smart enough to learn. These would be the utterly closed minded theist who 'Believe' and have 'Faith' that they already know what is going on. So life very much is a place of learning, some just have difficulty coping with the fact it may have something to teach them that they don't want to know.

QuoteWell you should read Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali) it give a very good insight from the Muslim perspective. I found it very interesting read.

Well, so you read Ayaan Hirshi Ali. My respects to her, she really knows how to manipulate.
When she came here from Somalia, she lied at the immigration office, somehow she was still accepted in the Netherlands.
Then she joined the PvdA (political party, with other words 'the labours party').
After that she joined the VVD (political party, 'the liberals'), (imagine how that goes...you go from white to black)
So she started writing books, in the end she is now seen as an intellectual. After she messed up the scene
in the Netherlands and didn't have the courage to stay, she fled to the U.S.A. You gotta love it ;)

QuoteNot if it is cut short by a religious fundamentalist flying an aircraft into a building, or bombing a night-club, or bombing a bus, or bombing a train etc et al.

I'm really getting tired of this argument, it just shows that you're actually the one following 'mumb-jumbo' claims.
Let me sum it up my dear friend.

What secularism did in the last century.

-World war 1 (20 milion)
-World war 2 (Hitler was not a christian. he actually called christianity a disease) (55 mllion)
-Stalin (Nice way how he indoctrinated  children, who in the end betrayed their parents, and their parents ending up in Sibera) (60 milion)
-Mao Zedong (You gotta love this man, had pretty nice ways to eradicate people), (If there's no God, why not worship him instead?!) (200 milion, 1/5 of a bilion)
 Look at his argument with 'The great leap forward'  'When there is not enough to eat people starve to death. It is better to let half of the people die so that the other half can eat their fill.'
-Vietnam war (3 milion)
-Occupation of Afghanistan by the Sovjet Union. (1,3 milion)
-The massacre in Cambodja (Where a fanatic massacred every intellectual, actually everyone living in urban area's, do watch the movie 'Killing fields') (2,5 milion)
-Iraq war part 1 (85000)
-Iraq part 2 (not for oil of course, but for al qaeda), doesn't matter that saddam was against al qaeda, and al qaeda came after saddam's defeat.
(1,1 milion so far ), it doesn't matter that this war led to 100 times more casualties than saddam ever did)

I only mentioned the wars you probably heard off. Now tell me, did any religion claim so many victims?
The 'mastermind's'  of the wars above, were not so 'religious' at all as you can see. (They did worship themselves and asked others to do the same, does that make them religious?)

I've seen hell on earth and I know what human ideology can do,  5 members of my family were shot dead as amusement by USSR soldiers in the eighties.

QuoteBeing open-minded means listening to other people's ideas. Being sensible, sceptical and rational is what allows one to choose which idea to agree with and those to discard as mumbo-jumbo mythology. If you already know the answer, and I think you do think you know the answer, then you are the most closed minded you could possibly be. So take some of your own advice and open your mind to the possibility that you could be wrong. I accept that there could be a deity as I can't prove there isn't one. But that does not mean I am in any way convinced there is a deity as nobody as yet come within giving me coherent and demonstrable evidence for the existance of the supernatural realm, and until they do I will continue not to believe in something for which there is no evidence.

The only religious book you ever read is the Bible (did you?). Now you claim that you're an atheist.
Never did you go out and read any other religious book to find out why people are attracted to them, in your eyes it's already 'mumbo jumbo'.
Talk about being narrow minded, I did however come to an atheist forum, trying to understand people, something you'd never do.

The bold part really made me laugh. So you consider yourself as the center and other people have to come to convince you, because you consider
yourself 'oh so important'. Break this illusion please, go out and read something.

QuoteAnd some pupils are just so stupid they may as well not attend because they just are not smart enough to learn. These would be the utterly closed minded theist who 'Believe' and have 'Faith' that they already know what is going on. So life very much is a place of learning, some just have difficulty coping with the fact it may have something to teach them that they don't want to know.

So you find yourself so smart, that you think that dumb people only follow religions, or claim that there is a God?
Well the greatest thinkers of history believed in a 'Deity', yes..even Plato.
Isaac Newton, the father of physics was a devoted christian.
Aren't you doing the same as you claim believers do?
One of the arguments against religion is 'you just waste time'.

As a matter of fact, if you think you'll only live this life.
Then stop having debates about religion, because it's a waste of time. Your clock is ticking.
Sometimes I think you need people like Dawkins, Hitchens or Harris so you can be right and you can feel better whenever the thought comes 'what if I'm wrong?'.


I think I said enough, I came to this forum to meet some open-minded people.
But all I see are the same false arguments.

He is the One who made mankind,
He is the One who sustains mankind,
He is the One who awaits mankind,

Yet He is denied by the majority of mankind.
He deserves much better from us.

The root of all evil is not religion, but it is ignorance and pride.
What I've seen with my own eyes so many times.


Peace be upon you all,

Quote from: "iSok"What secularism did in the last century.

-World war 1 (20 milion)
-World war 2 (Hitler was not a christian. he actually called christianity a disease) (55 mllion)
-Stalin (Nice way how he indoctrinated  children, who in the end betrayed their parents, and their parents ending up in Sibera) (60 milion)
-Mao Zedong (You gotta love this man, had pretty nice ways to eradicate people), (If there's no God, why not worship him instead?!) (200 milion, 1/5 of a bilion)
 Look at his argument with 'The great leap forward'  'When there is not enough to eat people starve to death. It is better to let half of the people die so that the other half can eat their fill.'
-Vietnam war (3 milion)
-Occupation of Afghanistan by the Sovjet Union. (1,3 milion)
-The massacre in Cambodja (Where a fanatic massacred every intellectual, actually everyone living in urban area's, do watch the movie 'Killing fields') (2,5 milion)
-Iraq war part 1 (85000)
-Iraq part 2 (not for oil of course, but for al qaeda), doesn't matter that saddam was against al qaeda, and al qaeda came after saddam's defeat.
(1,1 milion so far ), it doesn't matter that this war led to 100 times more casualties than saddam ever did)

I only mentioned the wars you probably heard off. Now tell me, did any religion claim so many victims?

You fail to take into account how the progression of technology has made killing people oh so much easier.

QuoteThe 'mastermind's'  of the wars above, were not so 'religious' at all as you can see. (They did worship themselves and asked others to do the same, does that make them religious?)

Pretty much, yes. In the absence of religion, similar ideologies tend to crop up. By the way, even if Hitler wasn't a Christian (no one knows for sure), he sure as hell wasn't an atheist.

QuoteI've seen hell on earth and I know what human ideology can do,

Like Islam?

Quote5 members of my family were shot dead as amusement by USSR soldiers in the eighties.

I agree that religions aren't the only horrible ideologies there are. I'm against ideology in general.

QuoteThe only religious book you ever read is the Bible (did you?). Now you claim that you're an atheist.
Never did you go out and read any other religious book to find out why people are attracted to them, in your eyes it's already 'mumbo jumbo'.
Talk about being narrow minded, I did however come to an atheist forum, trying to understand people, something you'd never do.

QuoteThe bold part really made me laugh. So you consider yourself as the center and other people have to come to convince you, because you consider
yourself 'oh so important'. Break this illusion please, go out and read something.

Until you have read every holy book that has ever existed, I'm going to deem you a hypocrite.

QuoteSo you find yourself so smart, that you think that dumb people only follow religions, or claim that there is a God?

Who here said that?

QuoteWell the greatest thinkers of history believed in a 'Deity', yes..even Plato.

So?

QuoteIsaac Newton, the father of physics was a devoted christian.

He was also an alchemist.

QuoteAren't you doing the same as you claim believers do?

No.

QuoteOne of the arguments against religion is 'you just waste time'.


As a matter of fact, if you think you'll only live this life.
Then stop having debates about religion, because it's a waste of time. Your clock is ticking.

What is considered a waste of time to one man is another man's favorite passtime. It's all subjective.

QuoteSometimes I think you need people like Dawkins, Hitchens or Harris so you can be right and you can feel better whenever the thought comes 'what if I'm wrong?'.

Sometimes I think you need books like the Qur'an so you can be right and feel better whenever the thought comes 'what if I'm wrong?'.

See what I did there?

QuoteI think I said enough, I came to this forum to meet some open-minded people.
But all I see are the same false arguments.

Same for you, my friend.

QuoteThe root of all evil is not religion, but it is ignorance and pride.
What I've seen with my own eyes so many times.

Too bad that religion is ignorant and prideful.

QuotePeace be upon you all,

Ah, ending a "You're all dumb nonbelievers" post with "Peace be upon you" or "God Bless" or something similar. Good job.

Quote from: "iSok"He is the One who made mankind,
He is the One who sustains mankind,
He is the One who awaits mankind,

Yet He is denied by the majority of mankind.
He deserves much better from us.

No, he doesn't.

Quote from: "iSok"Well, so you read Ayaan Hirsi Ali. My respects to her, she really knows how to manipulate.
When she came here from Somalia, she lied at the immigration office, somehow she was still accepted in the Netherlands.
Then she joined the PvdA (political party, with other words 'the labours party').
After that she joined the VVD (political party, 'the liberals'), (imagine how that goes...you go from white to black)
So she started writing books, in the end she is now seen as an intellectual. After she messed up the scene
in the Netherlands and didn't have the courage to stay, she fled to the U.S.A. You gotta love it ;)

I fully agree with you on this one, ISok. The only comment, that I've got to make is that only after the arrival of Geert Wilders and Jan Rutte, the VVD moved more to the right. At the time of Hirsi Ali joining the PvdA, both parties were more or less located in the center of the political field. So she didn't really move from white to black.

Quote from: "iSok"never thought it would be that hard for you people.

It can be hard.

It can be very hard indeed because there are kids who risk being kicked out of the house for being atheists. There are families that can be ruined forever if one central member comes out as atheist. There is a risk of getting killed for forsaking your beloved prophet in several Islamic countries. There is a good chance many people you thought of as friends might turn their backs on you. There is bigotry and discrimination and archaic, xenophobic do-or-die reaction patterns to many atheists in many parts of the world. There is needless pity and unwelcome attempts to "save the poor soul". There are dozens of other reasons which mainly boil down to the possibility of a breakdown of one's entire social structure.

That is why coming out as atheist can be hard for far too many.

QuoteI liked her book. The fact that she explains her dishonesty in arriving and admits to it actually enhances her character in my view. We all make mistakes it takes guts to face up to them as she did.

She couldn't keep denying, could she?

QuoteI'm not your friend.

You missed the irony..

QuoteYou claim you are a Muslim. Islam crosses racial and national boundaries. I see Pakistanis killing their own politician because he dared to support the repeal of a blasphemy law. I see Muslims killing Christians and Muslims alike but I don't see any massed protests by Muslims calling for an end to such behaviour.

Maybe you should look further..Muslims as human shield http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2011/01/egyptian_muslims_act_as_human_shields_for_coptic_christmas_mass.html
There are many more examples..
Too bad the western media doesn't pay attention to things like these. It's all about Islam violence these days. And you're a typical prejudiced example of it. Thank you for revealing your frustrated view of Islam.

And what about this? http://jamesrupert.wordpress.com/wars/afghanistan-2/afghan-saved-a-gi-now-pays-the-price/
U.S.A. soldier saved by an Afghan shepherd, but pays the price, he has probably been killed by now.

Born out of centuries of Pashtun tribal wars and clan feuds, pashtunwali demands of a man both unflinching violence when his honor is thought to have been stained, and selfless humanitarianism when anyone â€" stranger or enemy â€" requests protection from a foe.
“He came to me for help. If I did not help a guest, it would have been a great shame for me,” Gulab said â€" a shame that might have led to his expulsion from his community.

My 'friend' I was on a holiday in Afghanistan in 2007 to see my family. Well if you've seen what I saw there, you'd never say this.
The way U.S.A. marines behave there, lets say they don't mind killing for fun. Even if I'm 21, I've seen and experienced more in life than you ever have.
Even I was almost shot because I didn't stop when they came in the opposite direction.

QuoteI don't see massed demands by Muslims for the capture and execution of Osama Bin Laden. I see terrorist cowards who kill un-armed civilians who are no threat to them. I see Muslim terrorist walking into schools in Beslan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis) and kill 300 people in the name of Allah. Islam's hands run with blood and death but I don't see any Muslims protesting these facts. Have you called for the capture and trial of OBL?

Rotten apples are everywhere, but do you now apply this to every Muslim? Because then truly you are narrow minded.
Look at the examples I gave you, it just shows how controlled your world view is.
Looking through the 'islam=violence' spectacles. I piety you, really I do.
The U.S.A. found Saddam after 3-4 years somewhere in a hole in in the middle of Iraq, but they can't find OBL? Wake up 'friend'.
Yes OBL is an idiot, a mass murderer, someone who should be put in jail.

But you asked me this, and let me ask you this.
This forum is religion, somehow you diverted it into politics.
What reason did Bush have to infiltrate Iraq?

WOMD were not found, Al qaeda grew stronger, far more casualties, total poverty.
Please, give me ONE GOOD reason.

QuoteYou're 21? So this happened before you were born right? Are you seeking vengeance in the name of peaceful religion? I am sorry some of your family were killed but their deaths had nothing to do with me, nor the world view that I hold. So I fail to see your point. If you are attempting to make me feel culpable for you families deaths then you have failed. You however do support Islam and therefore are at least vicariously responsible for the behaviour of your fellow Muslims. Do you deny that Osamma is a Muslim or that the child murderers in Beslan were Muslims and killed with the name of Allah on their lips?

yes this happened before I was born. Why am I seeking vengeance in the name of a religion? What are you talking about..? And when did I support their views?
I think you should really check yourself, quote me where I said this.
As for vengeance, you already feel threatned by a 'cyber-muslim'? Don't worry, there's no 'cyber suicide bomber'.

QuoteYou do not understand an atheistic, humanist or secular world view.

Now I do, very well in fact.

QuoteI don't have to read all the worlds books on religion to understand they are based on a falsehood. Our ancestors were superstitious, as are most primitive societies today. Most superstitions are animist in nature attributing cause and effect to unseen and unknown spirits. You will find that all religions are simply institutionalised superstitions created by bright men to exploit others and gain power. Mohamed was apparently a clever politician who realised he needed to unit the Arab tribes if he wanted real power.

I don't have to speak this, you just showed it yourself how narrow-minded you are.
About the bold part, for Dawkin's sake do read history. A comment like that is ridiculous, you have no clue what you are talking about.
It shows how naive and ignorant you are.

QuoteMy Mum was Christian and it didn't take me long to work out she was talking rubbish when she spoke of Jesus etc.  

I hope your mother wasn't speaking as much rubbish as you do.

QuoteActually my wife has a lot of books on religion as one of her degrees contained an element of comparative religion. I read enough of those to see that delusional religious behaviour is pretty much endemic in humanity. I assume you have read all books about all religions before selecting Islam? If not then you are a hypocrite for expecting others to do what you have not.

You are talking about knowledge? You don't even know the basics, stop lying.

QuoteWell recently finished reading Nation by Terry Pratchett an excellent author of fiction. It's the story of a boy's journey to manhood and throwing off the comfort blanket of superstition. You might find it quite insightful if you read it with your wonderfully open mind. Today I finished The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking & Leonard Mlodinow, it deals with the origin of the universe and it's 'apparent' design and quite convincingly demonstrates that Allah is not required to explain either the origin of the universe nor our existance in it. If you want to find out the details read it with your wonderfully open-mind. I have just started reading 'First Life' by David Attenborough, it looks very interesting.

Good books you read, but you read only books who scream 'THERE IS NO GOD'.
I am narrow-minded?

Quote'Faith' that they already know what is going on. So life very much is a place of learning, some just have difficulty coping with the fact it may have something to teach them that they don't want to know.

Yet, you have never read another religious book except the Bible, are you so afraid that your worldview might get shattered?
Yes I agree that life is a place of learning.
And I believe this phase of learning will be with you for eternity, you believe it'll end with death.

QuoteI am smart, it's not a sin you know. I'm smart enough to spot bullshit miles away. It's a fact that atheists tend to be smarter than, that's not to say that there are not smart theists there are. But once you get over an IQ of 125 more people are atheists than theists.

MOST people, not everyone.
For an intellectual you need to view religion in depth. That's what I believe.
Also, you might find this shocking but smart people view themselves as superior, they don't need anyone.
I'm an uni student, I see very well how students around me approach the janitor. This is of course not applicable to everyone.
But if you open your eyes, some people are really delighted with their 'IQ'.
You're an classic example, mentioning your IQ..

QuoteI have three kids, all older than you (if you're 21) and a recently arrived grandchild. All are atheists with atheist partners. Now I spend my time here because I enjoy the company and also the opportunity to debate with theists and when I have a mind to show up their world view for the institutionalised superstition that it is. I come here in part to give people the opportunity to realise that an atheistic world view is perfectly reasonable and acceptable and that Islam is nothing but an old politically expedient world view that has nothing to offer but ignorance and oppression.

You should thank Islam for the world you're living in now. Look up at the Islamic golden age, you might be surprised.
And one hint...the Islamic system actually provides a good basic for economy. With the Islamic model, there would't have been a economic crisis.
But that just happened of a few people who were too greedy....and wanted to live in the best way possible.

QuoteDawkins is a passable scientist but is utterly clueless when it comes to why people believe in superstitions. Hitchins is still arguing with his brother Peter and Sam Harris talks a lot of sense, but in a rather impersonal way. I was an atheist way before I had heard or read anything about these people.  

Might not count for you, it does for others.

QuoteSo you have been looking in the mirror have you? You have brought nothing new here, not even an open-mind.

I think you should look in the mirror.

QuoteI've highlighted the part of the poem that you need to pay attention to in case you missed it while you typed it.

I think that part really is for you.

QuoteOne of the reasons I have become more atheistic over time is coming across people like you iSor. Please keep up the good work in demonstrating just how dangerous 'Belief', 'Faith' and in particular Islam is.

Do read my posts well.

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteYou do not understand an atheistic, humanist or secular world view.

Now I do, very well in fact.

Oh, so now it's okay to make hasty generalizations about a whole group based on a couple members of that group? Okay, then. I now propose that all Muslims make hasty generalizations about entire groups based on a couple members of that group.

Your posts reek of a "holier than thou" attitude.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteYou do not understand an atheistic, humanist or secular world view.

Now I do, very well in fact.

Oh, so now it's okay to make hasty generalizations about a whole group based on a couple members of that group? Okay, then. I now propose that all Muslims make hasty generalizations about entire groups based on a couple members of that group.

Your posts reek of a "holier than thou" attitude.

I was refering to him, I don't understand why you missed that.


1- Reply to my full post.

2- So now I'm holy because I gave some examples?

Let's keep this thread civilized, shall we. There is no need to call people names.

I'm sorry Tom, I understand I went a bit too far.


But my reaction was pointed out to Tank.
I made a mistake about my first post. But look at Tank's comment meant for my 'shouldn't have done it' post.

And this is why the thread was split before there was an actual reason to split it!

Quote from: "iSok"never thought it would be that hard for you people.

Considering your reactions to those who have commented on this thread and that they probably have religious family members...do you still think it wouldn't be hard for people?

Quote from: "Whitney"And this is why the thread was split before there was an actual reason to split it!

Quote from: "iSok"never thought it would be that hard for you people.

Considering your reactions to those who have commented on this thread and that they probably have religious family members...do you still think it wouldn't be hard for people?

I didn't say: 'I don't THINK it's that hard for you people

I said: I NEVER THOUGHT it WOULD be that hard for you people. (after reading your testimony's)

There's a difference.
The second is in the past.

Tank must have missed that. I hope he did...

NO NEED TO YELL

 

Quote from: "Whitney"NO NEED TO YELL

 

PEOPLE MISSED IT AT FIRST

This thread can be deleted, I don't think it serves any value, does it?

Quote from: "iSok"What secularism did in the last century.

-World war 1 (20 milion)
-World war 2 (Hitler was not a christian. he actually called christianity a disease) (55 mllion)

:hissyfit:[/quote]
  Hee hee... What are the big font options there for?

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "iSok"What secularism did in the last century.

-World war 1 (20 milion)
-World war 2 (Hitler was not a christian. he actually called christianity a disease) (55 mllion)

 I lost interest there. Please stop saying Hitler was an atheist, it's embarrassing and disingenuous.

...And who cares, even if he was?  He didn't do anything in the name of secularism.

Even Stalin banned religion only because it would have competed with him for power.

@iSor

If there were an Olympic medal for the 100m 'jumping to conclusions hurdles' you would be over the finishing line before the other competitors had left their starting blocks. This is a problem with the Internet in general. I'm sure I have read somewhere that one loses 93% of communication 'bandwidth' via the written word when compared to face-to-face discussion. Our life experiences are different, but you appear to be saying that your life is more valid than mine, without knowing anything about me. How presumptive is that? You are not married, you don't have a family. You may do one day I don't know what you hope for the future. But I have done things you never will and you have done things I never will. That should allow us to learn from each other shouldn't it?  But you don't know me or my motivations or my prejudices. Why did I write what I wrote? Could I possibly have been pushing buttons to see how you react, to find out about you?

I liked the article about the Egyptian women and the Afghan man very much, we should see more of those sorts of articles. I agree with you that the Western Press paints Islam in a bad light. But they paint everybody in a bad light. Bad news sells papers and gets people's attention which is an unfortunate situation all people face. Muslims gets a bum rap, I was interested to see how you would react to having that reflected to you. You were in part rude, mean spirited and closed minded. If you are to be perceived as a 'friend' (and I did notice the irony BTW) then you need to behave like one. You can't rise to bating, you just appear vindictive and foolish.

I am at college at the moment in Bradford which has a very large Pakistani community. I am one of only 3 white people in a class of 15 and I get on with my classmates very well. I have no problems with anybody of any race, or belief system or sexual-orientation/gender. I love variety and have travelled to over a dozen countries and enjoy meeting people. I have worked in a warehouse and presented to the boards of multi-million dollar corporations. If I could be in the body of another person it would be Michael Palin or David Attenbrough. Who would you change places with?

My first post to you was by way of advice, given in good faith to a new member, which you pretty much ignored and started on the 'I know best preaching' route. One thing I hope you will learn, one way or the other, is that telling people how to think rarely works. People who lead by example are generally respected. If you want to influence the way people think about Islam and Muslims in general you need to be like those Egyptian women or that Afghan man. What they did was see people as people not the strawman you have constructed around me or atheists in general. You need to see the person first and always if you are to be seen as a good person yourself.

I've been toying with you to show you how easily you can be manipulated into thinking one thing while the truth is very different.

Have a think on how easily you daemonised me in your own mind. You wanted to find the nasty atheist. You wanted to have your own prejudices confirmed. I played that role to show you how easily you could fall for your own propaganda. You have ceased to interact with me, in fact you never bothered to get to know me at all, you are interacting with your own stereotype of what you think I am.

I think you came here with an agenda, you said as much in one of your posts, not to join in with this community. You have a wonderful opportunity to learn here if you choose to take it. Of the forums I have been on this is by far the best for inclusivity. We could do with a Muslin member who is prepared to intact honestly with us. Are you that Muslim or are you just going to spout rhetoric and be abusive of other people's world views? Are you really here to learn or preach? Are you like OBL, or an Egyption woman, or Afghan man? Which of those do you aspire to be?


Regards
Chris

EDIT. I reread you post and noted that you didn't recommend a Muslim forum where atheists are welcome. Is there one that you know of?

Before I start replying Tank, I realize that I went a bit too far.
Not because of your post, but because of your age.
I was raised to have respect for elders, something which is common in Islam and the Afghan community.

I'm sorry if I have hurt your feelings, but do read my post, so you understand why.

QuoteIf there were an Olympic medal for the 100m 'jumping to conclusions hurdles' you would be over the finishing line before the other competitors had left their starting blocks. This is a problem with the Internet in general. I'm sure I have read somewhere that one loses 93% of communication 'bandwidth' via the written word when compared to face-to-face discussion. Our life experiences are different, but you appear to be saying that your life is more valid than mine, without knowing anything about me. How presumptive is that? You are not married, you don't have a family. You may do one day I don't know what you hope for the future. But I have done things you never will and you have done things I never will. That should allow us to learn from each other shouldn't it?  But you don't know me or my motivations or my prejudices. Why did I write what I wrote? Could I possibly have been pushing buttons to see how you react, to find out about you?

Well, this is an online forum. What you write is without facial expressions.
I've seen countless people on the internet who are serious about it.

How should I know if you were pushing my buttons?

- By knowing you (which I don't)
- By looking at your facial expressions (which I can't)

So I'm not to blame.

QuoteI liked the article about the Egyptian women and the Afghan man very much, we should see more of those sorts of articles. I agree with you that the Western Press paints Islam in a bad light. But they paint everybody in a bad light. Bad news sells papers and gets people's attention which is an unfortunate situation all people face. Muslims gets a bum rap, I was interested to see how you would react to having that reflected to you. You were in part rude, mean spirited and closed minded. If you are to be perceived as a 'friend' (and I did notice the irony BTW) then you need to behave like one. You can't rise to bating, you just appear vindictive and foolish.

Well, just read your post again. It does hurt me when people think like that while they claim they are polite, open-minded and an intellectual.
You're not the first who is posting things like these. I've seen countless people do the same, and they were serious about it.
If 'not so smart' people post replies like that I ignore it, but I got upset because it came from from you.

QuoteI am at college at the moment in Bradford which has a very large Pakistani community. I am one of only 3 white people in a class of 15 and I get on with my classmates very well. I have no problems with anybody of any race, or belief system or sexual-orientation/gender. I love variety and have travelled to over a dozen countries and enjoy meeting people. I have worked in a warehouse and presented to the boards of multi-million dollar corporations. If I could be in the body of another person it would be Michael Palin or David Attenbrough. Who would you change places with?

If I could, I'd rather swap with a shepherd in Afghanistan, leading a simple life in the most beautiful valley on earth. But that's not how life
works, I don't only live for myself.

QuoteMy first post to you was by way of advice, given in good faith to a new member, which you pretty much ignored and started on the 'I know best preaching' route. One thing I hope you will learn, one way or the other, is that telling people how to think rarely works. People who lead by example are generally respected. If you want to influence the way people think about Islam and Muslims in general you need to be like those Egyptian women or that Afghan man. What they did was see people as people not the strawman you have constructed around me or atheists in general. You need to see the person first and always if you are to be seen as a good person yourself.

I never concluded anything, as a matter of fact, I have a lot of atheist friends. But they don't really talk about religion, since they are not really interested (phase of life?).
The reason I came here is that some people on this forum were still looking for God. My intention was to give info about Islam(which is quite misunderstood) and to understand
why people reject God.

QuoteI've been toying with you to show you how easily you can be manipulated into thinking one thing while the truth is very different.

Read above.

QuoteHave a think on how easily you daemonised me in your own mind. You wanted to find the nasty atheist. You wanted to have your own prejudices confirmed. I played that role to show you how easily you could fall for your own propaganda. You have ceased to interact with me, in fact you never bothered to get to know me at all, you are interacting with your own stereotype of what you think I am.

Read above, I have atheist friends, so I do know that they can be nice people. I didn't want to find the nasty atheist...I don't know you, and what you think but somehow you already know me?
I think if we take a look at the current situation in the world; Muslims are probably the most daemonised people in the world. It's quite rare to find
a forum without prejudice towards Islam or Muslims.

I never insulted you before, see my debate with other members. Did I go harsh on them?

QuoteI think you came here with an agenda, you said as much in one of your posts, not to join in with this community. You have a wonderful opportunity to learn here if you choose to take it. Of the forums I have been on this is by far the best for inclusivity. We could do with a Muslin member who is prepared to intact honestly with us. Are you that Muslim or are you just going to spout rhetoric and be abusive of other people's world views? Are you really here to learn or preach? Are you like OBL, or an Egyption woman, or Afghan man? Which of those do you aspire to be?

Read above once again.
I'm none of them I'd rather find my own way. Something we all should.


About the forum, you can start looking at http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/forum.php (Sunniforum)
The forum is actually more about 'Islamic principles', like how to pray, how to fast, how to read the Quran.
Lets say the people over there already concluded that they are Muslim and submit to God/Allah, they just want to have more info.
But you can easily start a debate with 'Why do you believe in God?'.

If you need more info, PM me.

Quote from: "iSok"The reason I came here is ... to understand why people reject God.

Hello iSok

Are you assuming that all atheists reject god?

I haven't accepted any theories about the existence of god/s yet as I am waiting for some proof to come along. I haven't rejected them outright yet as there is no proof with regards to disproving the theories either.

I do have major concerns with regards to the intolerance that is taught by most faiths, this intolerance is against my personal values. I definately feel that I personally am more tolerant, forgiving, loving and less angry, vengefull and homocidal than the Christian god as described in the bible, so if proof of the Christian god came around I may actually decide to reject that god with regards to worship and or other demands made by it, but without proof I have simply put the theories aside into the unkown pile and would revisit if some conclusive proof comes up.

I don't know much about the muslim god so can't really comment, but it seems to have no proof either so onto the same pile. No rejection just yet.

I'm pretty sure the Islamic answer to why people reject god is because god hardened their hearts...at least, that's what the quran told me when I made an attempt to read it (before I decided I had better things to do).

Quote from: "Whitney"I'm pretty sure the Islamic answer to why people reject god is because god hardened their hearts...at least, that's what the quran told me when I made an attempt to read it (before I decided I had better things to do).

That happens a lot in the Old Testament too, which pretty much nullifies the whole "free will" argument.

Quote from: "Stevil"

Quote from: "iSok"The reason I came here is ... to understand why people reject God.

Hello iSok

Are you assuming that all atheists reject god?

I haven't accepted any theories about the existence of god/s yet as I am waiting for some proof to come along. I haven't rejected them outright yet as there is no proof with regards to disproving the theories either.

I do have major concerns with regards to the intolerance that is taught by most faiths, this intolerance is against my personal values. I definately feel that I personally am more tolerant, forgiving, loving and less angry, vengefull and homocidal than the Christian god as described in the bible, so if proof of the Christian god came around I may actually decide to reject that god with regards to worship and or other demands made by it, but without proof I have simply put the theories aside into the unkown pile and would revisit if some conclusive proof comes up.

I don't know much about the muslim god so can't really comment, but it seems to have no proof either so onto the same pile. No rejection just yet.

Hello Stevil, well as far as I know there are atheists and agnostics.
an atheists rejects every religion, they just don't believe in God anymore.
an agnostic says there is a possibility a God could exist, but hasn't found it through any religion (yet).
Am I right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

We regard the Christian/Jew scriptures as corrupt (sorry if I offended any Christians or Jews here).
I gave some proves (I think) in my topic 'why are we here? - Islam'.

We muslims regard the Qur'an as divine. We believe we have many proves.
A site that explains this (not about miracles in the Qur'an or prophecies, but about the linguistic aspect) with a few arguments is this one http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

Quote from: "Whitney"I'm pretty sure the Islamic answer to why people reject god is because god hardened their hearts...at least, that's what the quran told me when I made an attempt to read it (before I decided I had better things to do).

You have to think a bit further than to stop reading after a few pages. God gave you a soul, a soul which has morals, a soul which wants to lay contact with the divine.
If you continuosly deny the existence of God, that part of your soul eventually weakens and doesn't call out anymore, it gets blind.
So yes, your heart gets hardened and there's effort needed to rebuild that part.
You shouldn't read the Qur'an as a novel or something, there's a lot of meaning in every verse which you have to think about.
You could have read further to understand the message and what does He mean by darkening the heart, but with your own (free will) you stopped.
The Qur'an continuosly talks about unbelievers/disbelievers, it's not about common people, but about people who fully understand the message and yet they reject
it for wordly gains.
The Qur'an is an universal message, meant for the mass and the intellectual.

There's a speech from Professor Jeffrey Lang, a mathematician who converted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVQ1BWqjTjs
He explains a lot I guess in his speech. If you have the time the will and the patience
to listen to it, then do it. You've only time to lose as far as I'm concerned.

EDIT: a part to add about the 'disbelievers', in the Qur'an 'disbeliever' also mean for example people who never got the message of the Qur'an but do understand the morals
God gave us. for Example Foday Sankoh or Charles Taylor (most likely you know them), if they were not ill they are probably very 'bad' people in this world.
'bad'  doesn't exist without God, 'bad/evil'  is the absence of God. Foday Sankoh and Charles Taylor probably knew that it is 'wrong' to kill people
but they still did it for money and power.

Thank you for the detailed and I feel honest reply. I think we may be getting to see the 'real' you a little.

Quote from: "iSok"How should I know if you were pushing my buttons?

You were not supposed to know I was pushing buttons, that was the point. If you had realised then the reaction would have been false. You reacted to aggression with aggression. You were continuing a downward spiral that would have just got worse. There are expert 'button pushers' out here who will get you screaming at your screen. You'll get upset, sometimes rightly so, break forum rules and get banned. It's a common technique.

How does one cope with this? Simply be true to yourself and your aspirational world view, don't get drawn into retaliating or being spiteful or rude. If you can keep clam and remain polite people will respect you and see you as a reasonable, rational individual. If you bite back then you'll just look like another online 'rage boy'.

Quote from: "iSok"I never concluded anything, as a matter of fact, I have a lot of atheist friends. But they don't really talk about religion, since they are not really interested (phase of life?).

Could be a phase of life thing, but I think it's more a case of relationship preservation. When one discusses religion one is tackling a very deep seated and emotionally sensitive subject and it's not always a good idea to go there. One of the other mature students in my class is a white Bosnian Muslim, Admir. He is the only person I have gotten to discuss Islam with and why he considers himself a Muslim. All the other non-whites are Asian but come from some interesting backgrounds. I hope to get to know some of the others better during the next semester.

 

Quote from: "iSok"The reason I came here is that some people on this forum were still looking for God.

While I can't speak for all here I think you will find you're wasting your time on this forum trying to find people who are looking for God. I think the majority here (slightly more than half atheists are ex-theists) have found God and been decidedly disappointed in what they found. The remainder, like me, simply find the 'God Hypothesis' an unsatisfying description of the way the world works.

Quote from: "iSok"My intention was to give info about Islam(which is quite misunderstood) and to understandhy people reject God.

Ouch! It might be the way you have phrased yourself their 'give info about Islam' is not a good idea. You instantly sound like the preacher banging on the door. Believe me if you stick around, and I really hope you do, you will have plenty of opportunity to add an Islamic input into discussions here. You can start threads on subjects you are interested in and in those threads you can be more demonstrative about what you think, it's your thread. But coming over as 'holier than thouh' preachy type just gets people's back up and that can grow to a flame war and then all is lost as reasoned and reasonable discussion goes out of the window.

If you ask people why they reject God they are not automatically giving you permission to criticise their reasons or choice. When I joined TheologyWeb I asked why people believed the Bible because I was genuinely interested in why some people did something that I consider strange to put it mildly. All I did was thank each person for their input and if people in the thread started to debate the rights and wrongs of each others views I asked them to stop. In due course I got some very interesting input because people did not feel threatened by my enquiry. However what you have done is immediately taken people to task on why they have in your eye 'rejected God'. That is a bad strategy as you appear to simply be looking for rock to throw back at people.

Do I have a right to tell you not to be a Muslim? No I don't. Do you have a right to tell me not to be an atheist? No you don't. If you want to try and convert people here you will eventually get kicked off. If you want to learn the ask but do not criticise in the 'first person'. It is best to phrase questions in an open and inviting manner, not a closed critical manner. You will get much more from an impersonal discussion than a personal argument.

Quote from: "iSok"I didn't want to find the nasty atheist...I don't know you, and what you think but somehow you already know me?

I don't know you, I'm still investigating who you are and what you represent. The most impressive positive point so far was linking to the Egyptian ladies and the Afghan Shepard. You refuted my comments with facts. The most negative point was likening me (as an atheist) to all the worst atrocities in the last century. The 'Hitler was and atheist' tripe is sooo out of date.

Quote from: "iSok"I think if we take a look at the current situation in the world; Muslims are probably the most daemonised people in the world. It's quite rare to find a forum without prejudice towards Islam or Muslims.

I think you're mostly right on both counts there. If in doubt ask, don't assume.

Quote from: "iSok"I never insulted you before, see my debate with other members. Did I go harsh on them?

You were rude and bad mannered, but I did provoke you so I can hardly blame you. But one does have control over what one types comments like 'You'll never have the life experience I have.' are mean spirited, rude, wrong and not worthy of a good person, irrespective of the provocation received.

Quote from: "iSok"About the forum, you can start looking at http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/forum.php (Sunniforum)
The forum is actually more about 'Islamic principles', like how to pray, how to fast, how to read the Quran.
Lets say the people over there already concluded that they are Muslim and submit to God/Allah, they just want to have more info.
But you can easily start a debate with 'Why do you believe in God?'.

If you need more info, PM me.

Thanks for the link I shall go and have a look.

Quote from: "iSok"Hello Stevil, well as far as I know there are atheists and agnostics.
an atheists rejects every religion, they just don't believe in God anymore.
an agnostic says there is a possibility a God could exist, but hasn't found it through any religion (yet).
Am I right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

With regards to this site here is a good definition of Atheist and Agnostic http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=830
I think most people belonging to this site are weak atheists and hence they would also be agnostic.
In short they don't have a belief in god/s and they recognise that there is no knowledge (proof) for or against god/s. Generally it is not an out and out rejection, you could say they are on the fence waiting for some definitive proof however, more than likely they think it is highly unlikely that any god theory is true. Some have delved into the Bible, possibly the Qur'an and decided that they can reject a specific belief, that is not true for me. I have very limited knowledge as to the writings within scriptures and I am currently of the understanding that there are no religions that offer definitive proof.

Quote from: "iSok"We regard the Christian/Jew scriptures as corrupt (sorry if I offended any Christians or Jews here).

No need to beat around the bush here. Most people will appreciate you getting right to the point, obviously within reason, as long as you don't make personal attacks against forum members. In fact I assume most participants would prefer for you to get right to the point, being concise and factual makes it easier for us to read your posts and to take on board your key points without having to read through endless waffle and preaching that some people post.

Quote from: "iSok"I gave some proves (I think) in my topic 'why are we here? - Islam'.

I will endeavour to look this up, thanks for notifying me.

Quote from: "iSok"We muslims regard the Qur'an as divine. We think we have many proofs.

As do the Christians with regards to the Bible, the Jews with regards to the Torah, Hindu with regards to their scriptures, etc, etc...

Quote from: "iSok"A site that explains this (not about miracles in the Qur'an or prophecies, but about the linguistic aspect) with a few arguments is this one http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

Thanks again for the reference. I will look this up. If it is too lengthy I may give it a pass though. I am of the stance that the truth should amost always be succinct and to the point, if things get too wordy then it is probably for a reason and generally it is distraction, confusion or other sundry to avoid the fact that there is no proof.

It is not my intent to try to prove to you that your belief is incorrect, that is neither my will nor want. I respect you and your belief in your faith and i think it is great that you are on this site as I know very little about muslims.

Well Tank, I'll give a short summary.


I indeed came here to give info about Islam, I hoped it would make people think.
Since there are a lot of people in this world who think that the best a muslim could do
is to blow himself up and kill as many infidels as possible.

Reaction towards you, if I ignored you or stayed quiet that would mean
I had nothing to say, to prove you, you are wrong. I did that in the past on a few forums
and people were already assuming that since I didn't reply I had nothing against it.
Most people do read these replies and it affects them, so I basically took your arguments and helped them out of the world.

If you did push my buttons, you did succeed. But then again I barely know you, and out of 100 people
90 of them actually reacts like that. I am not really to blame for that part.
I am sorry if I did hurt your feelings.

About Hitler, being an atheist (he never said he was or a christian) etc...that was by far not my point..
Most people (who do not believe in any religion) assume that without religion the world would be much better off.
There would be no more wars, no more poverty..etc..
I just gave that argument that we human beings are quite weak, and tend to do 'evil' things even without
the purpose of religion. So that even without religion we assurely will destroy each other.

I can go even further. I often listen to lectures given by Sam Harris or Dawkin's to see what
they actually think of relgions. There's an interview with him where he says this in some way.

'Religion is a waste of time, there are more important things to spend time on, so that those things could benefit us. Like making plans, thinking about
how to defend ourselves against a nucear attack.'

This really shocked me....I don't know if he understood well what he just said.
But if the russians are told the same? Would that lead to something good?

So what I meant about Hitler, I did not mean.

Hitler = Atheist (which I did not say..Sophus assumes I did)
Hitler = Bad
Atheists = Bad

but that even without religion we humans will never stop with 'evil'.

QuoteThanks again for the reference. I will look this up. If it is too lengthy I may give it a pass though. I am of the stance that the truth should amost always be succinct and to the point, if things get too wordy then it is probably for a reason and generally it is distraction, confusion or other sundry to avoid the fact that there is no proof.

It is not my intent to try to prove to you that your belief is incorrect, that is neither my will nor want. I respect you and your belief in your faith and i think it is great that you are on this site as I know very little about muslims.

The author of that website is Hamza Andreas Tzortzis, a humanist who converted to Islam a while ago.
He is an international speaker on Islam and frequently debates with agnostics, atheists and humanists.
You can find his debates on Youtube.


'Can we live better lives without religion?' Hamza Andreas Tzortzis vs Peter cave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJOZXZ480dA&playnext=1&list=PLBA23E76938E17224&index=2

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Whitney"I'm pretty sure the Islamic answer to why people reject god is because god hardened their hearts...at least, that's what the quran told me when I made an attempt to read it (before I decided I had better things to do).

You have to think a bit further than to stop reading after a few pages. God gave you a soul, a soul which has morals, a soul which wants to lay contact with the divine.
If you continuosly deny the existence of God, that part of your soul eventually weakens and doesn't call out anymore, it gets blind.
So yes, your heart gets hardened and there's effort needed to rebuild that part.
You shouldn't read the Qur'an as a novel or something, there's a lot of meaning in every verse which you have to think about.
You could have read further to understand the message and what does He mean by darkening the heart, but with your own (free will) you stopped.
The Qur'an continuosly talks about unbelievers/disbelievers, it's not about common people, but about people who fully understand the message and yet they reject
it for wordly gains.
The Qur'an is an universal message, meant for the mass and the intellectual.

So in order to read the quran correctly I basically have to first believe it is something more than just a book....  seems like putting the cart before the horse if you ask me.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Whitney"I'm pretty sure the Islamic answer to why people reject god is because god hardened their hearts...at least, that's what the quran told me when I made an attempt to read it (before I decided I had better things to do).

You have to think a bit further than to stop reading after a few pages. God gave you a soul, a soul which has morals, a soul which wants to lay contact with the divine.
If you continuosly deny the existence of God, that part of your soul eventually weakens and doesn't call out anymore, it gets blind.
So yes, your heart gets hardened and there's effort needed to rebuild that part.
You shouldn't read the Qur'an as a novel or something, there's a lot of meaning in every verse which you have to think about.
You could have read further to understand the message and what does He mean by darkening the heart, but with your own (free will) you stopped.
The Qur'an continuosly talks about unbelievers/disbelievers, it's not about common people, but about people who fully understand the message and yet they reject
it for wordly gains.
The Qur'an is an universal message, meant for the mass and the intellectual.

So in order to read the quran correctly I basically have to first believe it is something more than just a book....  seems like putting the cart before the horse if you ask me.

I didn't say you have to believe in it, I only said finish the book before you conclude anything.
Something which is quite common according to all logic and laws as far as I know.

Quote from: "iSok"I didn't say you have to believe in it, I only said finish the book before you conclude anything.
Something which is quite common according to all logic and laws as far as I know.

Have you fully read the Bible?
How about the Book of Mormon?
How about Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "iSok"I didn't say you have to believe in it, I only said finish the book before you conclude anything.
Something which is quite common according to all logic and laws as far as I know.

Have you fully read the Bible?
How about the Book of Mormon?
How about Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard?

I read the bible.I didn't read the Book of Mormon. I didn't read Dianetics.
What are you trying to say?

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "iSok"I didn't say you have to believe in it, I only said finish the book before you conclude anything.
Something which is quite common according to all logic and laws as far as I know.

Have you fully read the Bible?
How about the Book of Mormon?
How about Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard?

I read the bible.I didn't read the Book of Mormon. I didn't read Dianetics.
What are you trying to say?

How can you logically deny their validity/divinity if you haven't read them?

Quote from: "iSok"I gave some proves (I think) in my topic 'why are we here? - Islam'

I read through the first three pages and the last two pages of that thread and couldn't see any proof that you have offered. It would help if you narrow my search for me.
Although i did notice that other forum members had made it quite clear to you what an atheist is, so I am not sure why you still made a statement about them rejecting god in this thread.

Quote from: "iSok"We muslims regard the Qur'an as divine. We believe we have many proves.
A site that explains this (not about miracles in the Qur'an or prophecies, but about the linguistic aspect) with a few arguments is this one http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

That's an interesting belief, I didn't know that. A religion that worships penmanship, that is actually quite nice. Unfortunately since I don't know Arabic I will never be able to appreciate this aspect of the Qur'an. BTW just out of interest, do muslims hold Shakespear in high regard, spiritually?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "iSok"I read the bible.I didn't read the Book of Mormon. I didn't read Dianetics.
What are you trying to say?

How can you logically deny their validity/divinity if you haven't read them?

 

Quote from: "Stevil"

Quote from: "iSok"I gave some proves (I think) in my topic 'why are we here? - Islam'

I read through the first three pages and the last two pages of that thread and couldn't see any proof that you have offered. It would help if you narrow my search for me.
Although i did notice that other forum members had made it quite clear to you what an atheist is, so I am not sure why you still made a statement about them rejecting god in this thread.

Quote from: "iSok"We muslims regard the Qur'an as divine. We believe we have many proves.
A site that explains this (not about miracles in the Qur'an or prophecies, but about the linguistic aspect) with a few arguments is this one http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

That's an interesting belief, I didn't know that. A religion that worships penmanship, that is actually quite nice. Unfortunately since I don't know Arabic I will never be able to appreciate this aspect of the Qur'an. BTW just out of interest, do muslims hold Shakespear in high regard, spiritually?

Well, during the revelation of the Qur'an, Muhammad (pbuh) was never accused of being the author even not by his ennemies.
His ennemies thought he was under a spell.
During that time the Arabic language was probably at it's  best, so his ennemies asked the best poets of the Arab world to try
and imitate the Qur'an. All of them failed that task. Some of them converted to Islam, others accused him of black magic.

The revelation of the Qur'an took 23 years. Muhammad (pbuh) got his first message at the age of 40 by the Angel Gabriel.
And his last at the age of 63

Verse(5:3);
"Today I perfected your religion for you and completed my favor to you and have chosen for you Al-Islam as your religion."
This was the last revelation, after a month or two he died.

In those 23 years he went through hell..His wife was killed, people stoned him.
He almost starved to death, for months the only food he had were dates and water.
Four of his sons died. Lets say it wasn't a pleasant time.|

But in the Qur'an we don't find his emotions. Every human being would
change a bit during such turbulent times over a period of 23 years, yet the Qur'an
stays consistents, it's melody does not change. The rethorical aspect does not change.
It stays very consistent. We don't see the Qur'an 'changing' because of the experiences of one person.

There's for example a whole chapter
about the mother of Jesus, Mary. Yet, his wife's name is not even revealed. who died because of persecution.
None of his sons or his direct family are noted in the Qur'an.

Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate, so whenever he got a revelation.
He would just tell the people, the people around him would immediatly memorise it.
So even if he was an author, he had only one chance. He couldn't make a
mistake, since people would immediatly memorise it.

We do know how Muhammad (pbuh) spoke, his sayings (The Hadith) are very well documented.
His sayings do not resemble the Qur'an at all. Muhammad (pbuh) thought for example
that every disease can be cured, so the Hadith also include recipes for a lot of potions he thought would work to cure diseases.
In the Qur'an we don't find this.

Another remark, is the completion of the Qur'an. And that Muhammad (pbuh) was not killed in those 23 years.
Every Arab household wanted him dead, assasins were sent after him. But no one could kill him.
Most of the time he was on his own. You can search these events up.

Muslims and Non-muslim scholars agree that the Qur'an is by far the most magnificent work of the Arabic language.
The Qur'an has not been preceeded or succeeded by a book of it's kind. This what they agree on.

In the Qur'an Allah promises that He will make sure that the message of the Qur'an doesn't get altered.
Up to date the Qur'an does not contain a single contradiction. You may try to find one.
The original Qur'an, five or eight examples (the first written) were sent to different parts of
the Arab peninsula, two of those copies have survived.
One is in Istanbul, the other is in Kazachstan I thought.

Furthermore the Qur'an also
is written in a certain way. It contains certain phrases that no man could have known.
The expansion of the universe for example is a phrase that no man knew back then.

I can give you a lot of more examples.
Well if you're still interested you can look further and read more about it's history. If not, don't waste your time.


@Ls, I'll give you my answer. But my answer will no doubt lead to discussion, so bear with me.
Monday my first subject is Quanto mechanics, the hardest of my finals. So I hope I can answer you monday.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Stevil"

Quote from: "iSok"I gave some proves (I think) in my topic 'why are we here? - Islam'

I read through the first three pages and the last two pages of that thread and couldn't see any proof that you have offered. It would help if you narrow my search for me.
Although i did notice that other forum members had made it quite clear to you what an atheist is, so I am not sure why you still made a statement about them rejecting god in this thread.

Quote from: "iSok"We muslims regard the Qur'an as divine. We believe we have many proves.
A site that explains this (not about miracles in the Qur'an or prophecies, but about the linguistic aspect) with a few arguments is this one http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

That's an interesting belief, I didn't know that. A religion that worships penmanship, that is actually quite nice. Unfortunately since I don't know Arabic I will never be able to appreciate this aspect of the Qur'an. BTW just out of interest, do muslims hold Shakespear in high regard, spiritually?

Well, during the revelation of the Qur'an, Muhammad (pbuh) was never accused of being the author even not by his ennemies.
His ennemies thought he was under a spell.
During that time the Arabic language was probably at it's  best, so his ennemies asked the best poets of the Arab world to try
and imitate the Qur'an. All of them failed that task. Some of them converted to Islam, others accused him of black magic.

The revelation of the Qur'an took 23 years. Muhammad (pbuh) got his first message at the age of 40 by the Angel Gabriel.
And his last at the age of 63

Verse(5:3);
"Today I perfected your religion for you and completed my favor to you and have chosen for you Al-Islam as your religion."
This was the last revelation, after a month or two he died.

In those 23 years he went through hell..His wife was killed, people stoned him.
He almost starved to death, for months the only food he had were dates and water.
Four of his sons died. Lets say it wasn't a pleasant time.|

But in the Qur'an we don't find his emotions. Every human being would
change a bit during such turbulent times over a period of 23 years, yet the Qur'an
stays consistents, it's melody does not change. The rethorical aspect does not change.
It stays very consistent. We don't see the Qur'an 'changing' because of the experiences of one person.

There's for example a whole chapter
about the mother of Jesus, Mary. Yet, his wife's name is not even revealed. who died because of persecution.
None of his sons or his direct family are noted in the Qur'an.

Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate, so whenever he got a revelation.
He would just tell the people, the people around him would immediatly memorise it.
So even if he was an author, he had only one chance. He couldn't make a
mistake, since people would immediatly memorise it.

We do know how Muhammad (pbuh) spoke, his sayings (The Hadith) are very well documented.
His sayings do not resemble the Qur'an at all. Muhammad (pbuh) thought for example
that every disease can be cured, so the Hadith also include recipes for a lot of potions he thought would work to cure diseases.
In the Qur'an we don't find this.

Another remark, is the completion of the Qur'an. And that Muhammad (pbuh) was not killed in those 23 years.
Every Arab household wanted him dead, assasins were sent after him. But no one could kill him.
Most of the time he was on his own. You can search these events up.

Muslims and Non-muslim scholars agree that the Qur'an is by far the most magnificent work of the Arabic language.
The Qur'an has not been preceeded or succeeded by a book of it's kind. This what they agree on.

In the Qur'an Allah promises that He will make sure that the message of the Qur'an doesn't get altered.
Up to date the Qur'an does not contain a single contradiction. You may try to find one.
The original Qur'an, five or eight examples (the first written) were sent to different parts of
the Arab peninsula, two of those copies have survived.
One is in Istanbul, the other is in Kazachstan I thought.

Furthermore the Qur'an also
is written in a certain way. It contains certain phrases that no man could have known.
The expansion of the universe for example is a phrase that no man knew back then.

I can give you a lot of more examples.
Well if you're still interested you can look further and read more about it's history. If not, don't waste your time.


@Ls, I'll give you my answer. But my answer will no doubt lead to discussion, so bear with me.
Monday my first subject is Quanto mechanics, the hardest of my finals. So I hope I can answer you monday.

Occam's Razor. We can either assume the Qur'an is just a book of stories and what have you, or that everything in it is true and that a omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God that intervenes in human affairs and revealed himself to an Arabic man way back when really does exist, because it's written beautifully and some of its scripture can possibly made to look like vague and simplistic predictions of modern scientific knowledge.

If that's your only proof that the Qur'an is true, then I find it sorely lacking and not compelling at all.

I'm also interested in how you're going to weasel your way out of not being a hypocrite when you accuse us of not being logical or rational when we haven't read your holy book, but you yourself still being logical and rational when you haven't read some of the ones I listed.

QuoteOccam's Razor. We can either assume the Qur'an is just a book of stories and what have you, or that everything in it is true and that a omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God that intervenes in human affairs and revealed himself to an Arabic man way back when really does exist, because it's written beautifully and some of its scripture can possibly made to look like vague and simplistic predictions of modern scientific knowledge.

If that's your only proof that the Qur'an is true, then I find it sorely lacking and not compelling at all.

I'm also interested in how you're going to weasel your way out of not being a hypocrite when you accuse us of not being logical or rational when we haven't read your holy book, but you yourself still being logical and rational when you haven't read some of the ones I listed.

This hypocrit will his weasel his way out on monday.

QuoteOccam's Razor. We can either assume the Qur'an is just a book of stories and what have you, or that everything in it is true and that a omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God that intervenes in human affairs and revealed himself to an Arabic man way back when really does exist, because it's written beautifully and some of its scripture can possibly made to look like vague and simplistic predictions of modern scientific knowledge.

If that's your only proof that the Qur'an is true, then I find it sorely lacking and not compelling at all.

I'm also interested in how you're going to weasel your way out of not being a hypocrite when you accuse us of not being logical or rational when we haven't read your holy book, but you yourself still being logical and rational when you haven't read some of the ones I listed.

This hypocrit will try and explain on monday.

Quote from: "iSok"Well, during the revelation of the Qur'an, Muhammad (pbuh) was never accused of being the author even not by his ennemies.

It seems that there are a lot of similarities between the Qur'an and the Christian Bible. It seems quite obvious that people would have realised that Muhammad wasn't the author although he took some liberties with his rewrite.

Quote from: "iSok"The revelation of the Qur'an took 23 years.

These people that tried to copy the style, did they have 23 years to do so?

Quote from: "iSok"In those 23 years he went through hell..His wife was killed, people stoned him.
He almost starved to death, for months the only food he had were dates and water.
Four of his sons died. Lets say it wasn't a pleasant time.

Please forgive me if I have been misinformed. My source tells me that Muhammad took his favourite wife Aisha into wedhood when she was 6 years old. She was a virgin at the time and hence the appeal. Where I come from Muhammad would have been labelled by law as a paedophile and would have been given a lengthy prison sentence as well as having to register himself as a sex offender before entering a town and people around him would detest him and hold on tight to their children. With this in mind it seems to me appropriate that he went through some unpleasant times.

Quote from: "iSok"But in the Qur'an we don't find his emotions.

I also understand that he got jealous with regards to other men looking at his wives and hence a revelation which was documented into the Qur'an was that his own wifes should be veiled.

Quote from: "iSok"There's for example a whole chapter about the mother of Jesus, Mary. Yet, his wife's name is not even revealed. who died because of persecution.
None of his sons or his direct family are noted in the Qur'an.

It is understandable since the Qur'an is about the Christian/Muslim god and is a rewrite of the Christian bible. But as above, he did mention that his wives should be veiled?

Quote from: "iSok"We do know how Muhammad (pbuh) spoke, his sayings (The Hadith) are very well documented.
His sayings do not resemble the Qur'an at all. Muhammad (pbuh) thought for example
that every disease can be cured, so the Hadith also include recipes for a lot of potions he thought would work to cure diseases.
In the Qur'an we don't find this.

OK, i know i am getting confussed here. I thought you said that the Qur'an was written by witnesses based on Muhammed's sayings. Please tell me, who was holding the writing device when the Qur'an was written?

Quote from: "iSok"Muslims and Non-muslim scholars agree that the Qur'an is by far the most magnificent work of the Arabic language.
The Qur'an has not been preceeded or succeeded by a book of it's kind. This what they agree on.

Let me quote my favourite english translation passage as a fine example
"Your wives are your tillage", "Go in therefore unto your tillage in what manner soever ye will".

Quote from: "iSok"It contains certain phrases that no man could have known.
The expansion of the universe for example is a phrase that no man knew back then.

I can give you a lot of more examples.

Here, this is the interesting bit. Please provide more examples.

Quote from: "iSok"Monday my first subject is Quanto mechanics, the hardest of my finals.

I predict that you will have a rather interesting discussion with a forum member called TheJackel. In particular your discussion on how God created existence itself will be rather enlightening. But you need to have that discussion with him, not me.

Quote from: "iSok"The only religious book you ever read is the Bible (did you?). Now you claim that you're an atheist.
Never did you go out and read any other religious book to find out why people are attracted to them, in your eyes it's already 'mumbo jumbo'.

Quote from: "PZ Myers"I have considered the impudent accusations of Mr Dawkins with exasperation at his lack of serious scholarship. He has apparently not read the detailed discourses of Count Roderigo of Seville on the exquisite and exotic leathers of the Emperor's boots, nor does he give a moment's consideration to Bellini's masterwork, On the Luminescence of the Emperor's Feathered Hat. We have entire schools dedicated to writing learned treatises on the beauty of the Emperor's raiment, and every major newspaper runs a section dedicated to imperial fashion; Dawkins cavalierly dismisses them all. He even laughs at the highly popular and most persuasive arguments of his fellow countryman, Lord D. T. Mawkscribbler, who famously pointed out that the Emperor would not wear common cotton, nor uncomfortable polyester, but must, I say must, wear undergarments of the finest silk.

    Dawkins arrogantly ignores all these deep philosophical ponderings to crudely accuse the Emperor of nudity.

    Personally, I suspect that perhaps the Emperor might not be fully clothed â€" how else to explain the apparent sloth of the staff at the palace laundry â€" but, well, everyone else does seem to go on about his clothes, and this Dawkins fellow is such a rude upstart who lacks the wit of my elegant circumlocutions, that, while unable to deal with the substance of his accusations, I should at least chide him for his very bad form.

    Until Dawkins has trained in the shops of Paris and Milan, until he has learned to tell the difference between a ruffled flounce and a puffy pantaloon, we should all pretend he has not spoken out against the Emperor's taste. His training in biology may give him the ability to recognize dangling genitalia when he sees it, but it has not taught him the proper appreciation of Imaginary Fabrics.

QuoteIsaac Newton, the father of physics was a devoted christian.

He was also an alchemist. This is argumentum ad verecundiam writ large.

QuoteHe is the One who made mankind,
He is the One who sustains mankind,
He is the One who awaits mankind,

Yet He is denied by the majority of mankind.
He deserves much better from us.

Have you already forgotten about the 'no preaching' rule?

QuoteIt seems that there are a lot of similarities between the Qur'an and the Christian Bible.
It seems quite obvious that people would have realised that Muhammad wasn't the author although he took some liberties with his rewrite.

I know very little on this subject. Jesus (pbuh) was however sent to restore the old law given to the jews.
The old testament was at that time already corrupt, so he came to restore the old testament.
His sayings were written down after he was gone, I don’t know how many years after.
In short, we believe the that the bible (Old testament + Psalms + the New testament) are altered over time by man.
Some part of it, we still recognize by comparing it with the Qur’an, other parts are changed. The rule is, that if it contradicts the Qur’an, it has been changed.

The Qur’an is not like the bible, it contradicts on a lot of point.
Major point is that we do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) is the son of God.

We regard the Qur’an as the last word from God before the end of times.
Read my respond towards Legendarysandwich (which I hope I am going to post soon)

QuoteThese people that tried to copy the style, did they have 23 years to do so?

Yes, people even tried centuries after the Prophet passed away. This challenge can also be found in the Qur’an.

(2:23) And if you be in doubt whether the Book We have sent down to Our Servant is from Us or not, then produce, at least, one Surah like this.
 You may call all your associates to assist you and avail yourselves of the help of any one other than Allah. If you are genuine in your doubt, do this.

QuotePlease forgive me if I have been misinformed. My source tells me that Muhammad took his favourite wife Aisha into wedhood when she was 6 years old.
She was a virgin at the time and hence the appeal. Where I come from Muhammad would have been labelled by law as a paedophile and would have been given a
 lengthy prison sentence as well as having to register himself as a sex offender before entering a town and people around him would detest him and hold on tight to their children.
With this in mind it seems to me appropriate that he went through some unpleasant times.

No, you are not misinformed. Aisha started living with the Prophet at the age of 9.
There are some reasons for Muhammad (pbuh) marrying Aisha at the age of 9.

The times back then were different. There was no school, no education to pursue. So it was quite normal to get married at a very early age. This was quite a common thing to do.

Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr, one of the Prophet’s best friend, the marriage with Aisha would strengthen the bond between the two.

Aisha was known for her intelligence. Half of the Hadith (the sayings of the Prophet) come from her.
Without Aisha half of the Hadith would have been lost, and the right interpretation too.
She knew Muhammad (pbuh) the best. The prophet’s companions would listen to Aisha’s preaches
after Muhammad (pbuh) passed away whenever they didn’t understand something.
After the Prophet died, people would come from every corner of the Arabian Peninsula just to listen to her.

Aisha was set as an example, to show the ignorants  of back then that women also deserve an education and that they can be better than men.
Before he came, women were seen as properties, the Arabs had a lucrative  trade in women. Most of the time female infants after birth were buried alive.
Women were no more than pets you could easily get rid off.

Aisha in her twenties, commanding tribe elders who were well in their sixties. I know that it isn’t such a big deal. But in a society where age and gender means the world, it means a lot.

I posted these Hadith (Sayings of Muhammad (pbuh)) somewhere on the forum.

'The ink of a scholar is more holy than the blood of a martyr'
'To listen to the words of the learned, and to instill into others the lessons of science, is better than religious exercises'
'The acquisition of knowledge is a duty incumbent one every Muslim, male and female'
'He who leaves home in search of knowledge, walks in the path of God'
'Go in quest of knowledge, even unto China'

Aisha is seen as the perfect example that women can be superior in knowledge for muslims who’s cultural (men>women) is affecting this issue.

However, Muhammad (pbuh) had also other wifes.

He married Khadija at the age of 25 when Khadija (a widow) was 40. His marriage lasted 25 years, which ended in Khadija’s death, due to persecution because of the Quraish tribe. Khadija is the women I talked about in my previous post. After her death he was devastated, Muhammad (pbuh) had no more direct family, he grew up as an orphan from the age of four. For three years he didn’t marry any women. After these three years he married several women (also Aisha).
However the women he married were definitely not known for their beauty or youth. All of them were widows. Some of his wives used to beg on the streets.
Others he married for political reasons, to strenghten bonds between allies. I know it does sound strange.
There's a good biography of Muhammad (pbuh) (and affordable) written by Dr. Ling, in case you are interested.
http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Life-Based-Earliest-Sources/dp/1594771537/ref=pd_sim_b_1

But I do agree with you that today this situation should not be tolerated.  

QuoteI also understand that he got jealous with regards to other men looking at his wives and hence a revelation which was documented into the Qur'an was that his own wifes should be veiled.

Do you have a source and can you share it with me, and what verse you are talking about?

QuoteOK, i know i am getting confussed here. I thought you said that the Qur'an was written by witnesses based on Muhammed's sayings. Please tell me, who was holding the writing device when the Qur'an was written?

The Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) in parts. Whenever he received the part, he would recite it in public. He did not know how to read or write, so the words would be laid on his lips.
By reciting it in public, the people would immediately memorise it (this was a tradition back then).

After the completion, all the parts that he received over the total of 23 years were combined.
And the Qur’an was created. By this time almost everyone in Mecca knew the Qur’an by heart.
When the Qur’an was completed (in written form), not a single Hafiz’ (10.000) (someone who knows the Qur’an by heart, word by word) approval was left out. Everyone agreed unanimously that the Qur’an now in written form was complete and original.

It was compiled by Zaid ibn Thabit (Muhammad’s (pbuh) first scribe) and commissioned by Abu Bakr (The first caliph, one of Muhammad’s (pbuh) best friends and father of Aisha).

Forster Fitzgerald (Britishi orientalist) -
From a literary point of view, the Korân is regarded as a specimen of the purest Arabic, written in half poetry and half prose.
 It has been said that in some cases grammarians have adapted their rules to agree with certain phrases and
expressions used in it, and that, though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none have as yet succeeded.

It will thus be seen, from the above, that a final and complete text of the Korân was prepared within twenty years after the
death (A.D. 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time.
It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments.

QuoteLet me quote my favourite english translation passage as a fine example
"Your wives are your tillage", "Go in therefore unto your tillage in what manner soever ye will".

This verse just means that intercourse is not just for pleasure, but also for creating offspring.
Parenting is probably the most important aspect for Muslims for their purpose of life.
The purpose of life according to us, is to grow here in morals, to grow in mercy, love, kindness, knowledge etc… Parenting is a very important part, one can grow his soul.
We do not believe in the original sin, which means that we do not believe that every unbeliever on earth will go to hell.


"O You who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at time of marriage) you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings
through it a great deal of good." (An-Nisa 4:19)

Most people think that forced marriage is common in Islam, the above verse tells us that it’s even forbidden. I don’t agree with you if you suggest that Muslims are barbaric people who surpress their women at all costs. The majority of converts to Islam are women.

Just like this British judge who investigated Islam after she had too many cases about domestic violence within the Muslim community. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnsIeh_s05g
In the end, she also converted to Islam.

QuoteHere, this is the interesting bit. Please provide more examples.

After  some googeling..
I suggest you to read Dr. Maurice Bucaille’s book: The holy scriptures examined in the light of modern knowledge. Here’s the link: http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/MB_BQS/default.htm

He was a surgeon on embryology who converted after reading verses in the Qur’an on how man is created in the womb. I didn’t read the book myself, so I don’t know whether all aspects are covered and how useful it is.


@Legendarysandwich, I know I promised you that I will respond today, and I will. I have till 00:00

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "iSok"I read the bible.I didn't read the Book of Mormon. I didn't read Dianetics.
What are you trying to say?

How can you logically deny their validity/divinity if you haven't read them?

iSok...did you ever answer the above???

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "iSok"I read the bible.I didn't read the Book of Mormon. I didn't read Dianetics.
What are you trying to say?

How can you logically deny their validity/divinity if you haven't read them?

iSok...did you ever answer the above???

Last part of my previous post.

Quote@Legendarysandwich, I know I promised you that I will respond today, and I will. I have till 00:00

It'll be a long answer whitney, I'm almost done with my schedule for today.
I promised I'll answer it today.

Well, why do I reject the Book of Mormons and Dianetics without ever have read them?

First of all, I do not possess full knowledge of the scriptures.
I’m always ‘in search of knowledge’, as my name says; ‘isok’.
So please excuse me if I make any mistake.

Let me start with the book of Mormons.

I have read the bible and after reading it I do not agree and I do not believe in the trinity; (God, Son, Holy spirit).
The book of Mormons continues on that path and still believes that Jesus (pbuh) is the Son of God.
That belief is supported by the Bible, therefore the whole foundation of that belief fell away for me.
The Qur’an tells us that Jesus (pbuh) was a messenger and not the son of God.

We believe, like I said before that the Bible (Old Testament, Psalms and the New Testament) have been altered and changed by men during the years.
 Not every passage has been changed, if a verse contradicts the Qur’an or seems strange, it has probably been altered.
A strange verse is for example this one.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Timothy 3:16

This means, that we can alter the word of God. By doing this, the message will get corrupt over time and sometimes will be used for wordly gains. So this is most likely added by men over time.


However there are still verses that might have some of it’s original meaning. Let me list a few that could have some meaning left, since they do not contradict the Qur’an.

Deuteronomy:
18:15  The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
18:16  According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again
the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
18:17  And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18:18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


If this has not been altered, that means that in the time of Moses, God said that He would let rise another prophet.
We as muslims suggest that this was Muhammad.
The last part is important ‘put my words in his mouth’, Muhammad  recited the revelations in public (see my previous post)
since he was illiterate, he literally recited the Word of God.

Christians claim that it was Jesus who is discussed in this verse. However this would mean that Jesus is a prophet and not Son of God.
Moses  and Muhammad  also share more similarities, ‘raise them up a Prophet like unto thee’ to Moses.

The Jews however are still waiting for the prophet mentioned in this verse.

In the New Testament, there are also verses which indicate that the full ‘truth’ has not been passed upon mankind (John 16:12-14).

John 14:16
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."
John 15:26
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."
John: 16:12-14
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you
 unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he     speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me."


Muhammad (pbuh) actually showed us everything, almost every answer to every question. The purpose of life for example.
If there is one man that can be called the most truthful in the most backward civilization, it was Muhammad (pbuh). If you read history
you’ll see that Pre-Islamic Arabs were  not really friendly….at the least. In the verse above, Jesus (pbuh) mentions ‘the spirit of truth’.
 Muhammad’s (pbuh) nickname from a very young age was; ‘The most truthful’, given by his tribe, people respected him from a very early age for his sincerity, his pure heart and his truthfulness. I do know that it’s hard to believe for you Ls, because of the image Muhammad (pbuh) is given by the media. I’ll quote a few non-muslim scholars.

-Thomas Carlyle
"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning
zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are
disgraceful to ourselves only."
"A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but
be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the
world’s Maker had ordered so."

- W. Montogomery Watt
His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs,
the high moral character of the men
who believed in him and looked up to him as
leader, and the greatness of his ultimate
achievement - all argue his fundamental
integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor
raises more problems than it solves. Moreover,
none of the great figures of history is so poorly
appreciated in the West as Muhammad."

- Annie Besant
But do you mean to tell me that the man who
in the full flush of youthful vigor, a young man
of four and twenty (24), married a woman much
his senior, and remained faithful to her for six
and twenty years (26), at fifty years of age
when the passions are dying married for lust
and sexual passion? Not thus are men's lives to
be judged. And you look at the women whom he
married, you will find that by every one of
them an alliance was made for his people, or
something was gained for his followers, or the
woman was in sore need of protection.

A verse from the Qur'an (there are more about this subject)
(Qur'an 16:36) We raised a Messenger in every community (to tell them): "Serve Allah and shun the Evil One. Thereafter Allah guided some of them while others were overtaken by error.
 Go about the earth, then, and observe what was the end of those who rejected the Messengers,calling them liars.

So we believe that every community on earth was sent a messenger to tell them what is right and what is wrong (we human beings cannot differentiate between good and evil).
The society you live in today, is based on Christian values, we can't deny that.

So we as muslims believe that a lot of religions we see in this world could have come from God, but were altered by mankind.
For example Hinduism (they worship a lot of gods), they also believe in ONE Supreme God.
In many scriptures of other religions, another 'enlightened one' is announced.

I'll quote a part from the Gospel of Bhudda. (Blessed One = Bhudda)

"Ananda said to the Blessed One, ‘Who shall teach us when thou art gone?'

And the Blessed one replied, 'I am not the first Buddha who came upon the earth nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise in the world, a holy one, a supremely enlightened one, endowed with wisdom in conduct, auspicious, knowing the universe, an incomparable leader of men, a master of angels and mortals. He will reveal to you the same eternal truths, which I have taught you. He will preach his religion, glorious in its origin, glorious at the climax and glorious at the goal. He will proclaim a religious life, wholly perfect and pure such as I now proclaim. His disciples will number many thousands while mine number many hundreds.'


God gave each community a certain law, which was only meant for that community.

Islam, is the final revelation, this time it's an universal message, law. Connecting all the dots.
It basically is a guideline for life, not only meant for Arabs, but for each and every community.
Today it's the fastest growing religion.
It tells us how to deal with every aspect of life: random issues..

- Human Law
- Environmental issues (pollution)
- Animal rights
- Behaviour
- Hygiene
etc..



God in the Qur’an says that, the Qur’an will be the last revelation to mankind, the final message.
And that He will make sure it does not get altered, after 1400 years it did stay original, today over 30 million people know it by heart.
God also says in the Qur'an, that Muhammad is the final seal of every prophet he sent, (in total there were 124000 prophets sent to mankind).
Muhammad (pbuh) will be the final seal of all the prophets, no other will come after him.

Too make a long answer short Legendarysandwich, the book of Mormons continues on the fact that Jesus (pbuh) was the son of God.
The foundation of that believe can be found in the Bible, which I read and I did not accept.


The other book you mentioned, Dianetics by Ron Hubbard. I’ll give a short answer.

Well the book itself was never intented by the writer to be a book of religion at all. It was a self-help philosophy. Over the years people started to admire it, and Ron Hubbard changed it into a religion.
That is one major point…

The other thing, is that they want to abolish the field of pscychiatry.
There are several more reasons.
To me it seems that some people make profit of it, by developing certain marketing methods. We’ve seen that companies like Amway or Herbal Life use this strategy
too (the pyramid system, people at top make most profit).

-Get members and ‘rise’ in the ‘foodchain’ (Scientology calls this enlightenment).
As long as you get members you’ll rise, no matter how you did it what your intentions were.

Quote from: "iSok"Too make a long answer short Legendarysandwich, the book of Mormons continues on the fact that Jesus (pbuh) was the son of God.
The foundation of that believe can be found in the Bible, which I read and I did not accept.

And the Qur'an lies on the same Abrahamic foundation that there exists a god who is omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent, which I do not accept.

QuoteThe other book you mentioned, Dianetics by Ron Hubbard. I’ll give a short answer.

Well the book itself was never intented by the writer to be a book of religion at all. It was a self-help philosophy. Over the years people started to admire it, and Ron Hubbard changed it into a religion.
That is one major point…

The other thing, is that they want to abolish the field of pscychiatry.
There are several more reasons.
To me it seems that some people make profit of it, by developing certain marketing methods. We’ve seen that companies like Amway or Herbal Life use this strategy
too (the pyramid system, people at top make most profit).

-Get members and ‘rise’ in the ‘foodchain’ (Scientology calls this enlightenment).
As long as you get members you’ll rise, no matter how you did it what your intentions were.

And Islam seems like a primitive, archaic religion to me that isn't worth my time.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"And the Qur'an lies on the same Abrahamic foundation that there exists a god who is omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent, which I do not accept.

And Islam seems like a primitive, archaic religion to me that isn't worth my time.

I'll quote Annie Besant (A women's right activist, from Great-Brittain in the early 20th century).

-Annie Besant

You can find others stating that the religion (Islam) is evil, because it sanctions a limited polygamy. But you do not hear as a rule the criticism which I spoke out one day in a London hall where I knew that the audience was entirely uninstructed. I pointed out to them that monogamy with a blended mass of prostitution was a hypocrisy and more degrading than a limited polygamy.

Naturally a statement like that gives offence, but it has to be made, because it must be remembered that the law of Islam in relation to women was until lately, when parts of it have been imitated in England, the most just law, as far as women are concerned, to be found in the world. Dealing with property, dealing with rights of succession and so on, dealing with cases of divorce, it was far beyond the law of the West, in the respect that was paid to the rights of women. Those things are forgotten while people are hypnotized by the words monogamy and polygamy and do not look at what lies behind it in the West-the frightful degradation of women who are thrown into the streets when their first protectors, weary of them, no longer give them any assistance…

"I often think that woman is more free in Islam than in Christianity. Woman is more protected by Islam than by the faith which preaches Monogamy. In Al-Quran the law about woman is more just and liberal. It is only in the last twenty years that Christian England, has recognized the right of woman to property, while Islam has allowed this right from all times… It is a slander to say that Islam preaches that women have no souls.

Islam gave rights to women as never before. The Arabs back then did not see much difference between a dog and a women, a women was able to follow more commands.
That was it, as far as they were concerned. As I said before that female infants usually were burried alive, right after they were born.
So I hope you see what a major development that was..something that's almost unbelievable.

Women's rights in Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia)

Quote from: "Tank"Women's rights in Saudi Arabia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia)

Within Islam, there are basically three branches, Sunni, Shai and Sufi.
90% of the Muslims are sunni.

Wahhabism is a branch of the sunni, which is the state religion of Saudi Arabia.
Wahhabism was founded in 1800 I think, nowadays it's called 'Salafi'.

Take a look at the first line of the wikipedia article.

Gender roles in Saudi society come from Sharia (Islamic law) and tribal culture.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi
In Iran for example, women are allowed to drive, in Pakistan women are allowed to be elected.
Not to forget, that the majority of converts to Islam, are women.

Can you be more specific?

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"And the Qur'an lies on the same Abrahamic foundation that there exists a god who is omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent, which I do not accept.

And Islam seems like a primitive, archaic religion to me that isn't worth my time.

I'll quote Annie Besant (A women's right activist, from Great-Brittain in the early 20th century).

-Annie Besant

You can find others stating that the religion (Islam) is evil, because it sanctions a limited polygamy. But you do not hear as a rule the criticism which I spoke out one day in a London hall where I knew that the audience was entirely uninstructed. I pointed out to them that monogamy with a blended mass of prostitution was a hypocrisy and more degrading than a limited polygamy.

Naturally a statement like that gives offence, but it has to be made, because it must be remembered that the law of Islam in relation to women was until lately, when parts of it have been imitated in England, the most just law, as far as women are concerned, to be found in the world. Dealing with property, dealing with rights of succession and so on, dealing with cases of divorce, it was far beyond the law of the West, in the respect that was paid to the rights of women. Those things are forgotten while people are hypnotized by the words monogamy and polygamy and do not look at what lies behind it in the West-the frightful degradation of women who are thrown into the streets when their first protectors, weary of them, no longer give them any assistance…

"I often think that woman is more free in Islam than in Christianity. Woman is more protected by Islam than by the faith which preaches Monogamy. In Al-Quran the law about woman is more just and liberal. It is only in the last twenty years that Christian England, has recognized the right of woman to property, while Islam has allowed this right from all times… It is a slander to say that Islam preaches that women have no souls.

Islam gave rights to women as never before. The Arabs back then did not see much difference between a dog and a women, a women was able to follow more commands.
That was it, as far as they were concerned. As I said before that female infants usually were burried alive, right after they were born.
So I hope you see what a major development that was..something that's almost unbelievable.

And Dianetics is at least a psuedoscience.

I said that Islam is archaic. I don't doubt that it probably was a good thing in the past, but the civilized world has no use for it now.

QuoteI said that Islam is archaic. I don't doubt that it probably was a good thing in the past, but the civilized world has no use for it now.

You said it's primitive and archaic

Let me adress a recent event. The global economy crisis would not have happened if some parts of the Islamic Law about economy
were injected in this system. The system we use now, would be far more reliable and stable.
Some 'economists' (forgive me for my cave English) are researching this now.

We humans cannot differentiate between 'good' and 'evil', it's impossible for us without someone telling us.

Why do you think that for example raping a women is bad, or murdering is bad?
In some parts of the world, murdering someone is heroic.
In parts of Indonesia, people eat their dead relatives.
Why do we consider that as strange?

It's because of the society we grew up in, the influence we went through. You were raised
according to Christian values, and today you think that way too.

I have nothing against atheists, in the end we are all brothers in humanity.
What I want to say, is that man is weak and can easily be brainwashed. Just look at
Nazi-Germany in the second world war, how easy Goebbel brainwashed the majort part of Germany.

There was an experiment done at Stanford University in 1971, where they did an experiment with students from universities.
Students were divided into two groups, guard and prisoners, they had to follow certain rules.

But just after a few days, the guard 'group' started to violate the rules, after just 8 days I think they had to stop the experiment, since
the 'prisoners' group life was threatened, because the 'guard' group went out of control.

We DO need religion, every religion in this world has certain values, what we can learn from.
'Do not kill, Do not lie, Do not rape, Do not steal..etc', even if you do consider that as 'brainwashing', I am happy that we were 'brainwashed' in this way.

For example, without religion; If we just go by reason, logic and the benefit of mankind

why can't we kill people with disabilities?
They don't contribute anything to sciety and they do only cost us money.
If we kill them, their DNA will end, which will benefit us. So why not kill them? They will just end to exist.
And why is it bad to do that?


A society without religion, would be really cold, it would not be a happy place to live in.
Society changes fast so do it's rules, but religious values stay.

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteI said that Islam is archaic. I don't doubt that it probably was a good thing in the past, but the civilized world has no use for it now.

You said it's primitive and archaic

Let me adress a recent event. The global economy crisis would not have happened if some parts of the Islamic Law about economy
were injected in this system. The system we use now, would be far more reliable and stable.
Some 'economists' (forgive me for my cave English) are researching this now.

Evidence?

QuoteWe humans cannot differentiate between 'good' and 'evil', it's impossible for us without someone telling us.

That is false. Evolution has gave us a conscious we are born with.

QuoteWhy do you think that for example raping a women is bad, or murdering is bad?

Because it produces pain and suffering, and stifles joy and happiness.

QuoteIn some parts of the world, murdering someone is heroic.

I would say it depends on who it is.

QuoteIn parts of Indonesia, people eat their dead relatives.

Nothing wrong with that.

QuoteWhy do we consider that as strange?

Because of our culture. Evolution gives us some of our morality; culture and society gives us the rest (and sometimes, logic and rational thinking does as well).

QuoteIt's because of the society we grew up in, the influence we went through. You were raised
according to Christian values, and today you think that way too.

That is true; I was, and I still am, actually. However, I wouldn't say I align with Christian values.

QuoteI have nothing against atheists, in the end we are all brothers in humanity.
What I want to say, is that man is weak and can easily be brainwashed. Just look at
Nazi-Germany in the second world war, how easy Goebbel brainwashed the majort part of Germany.

I agree, although I wouldn't use the word "brainwash", as it's more natural than that.

QuoteWe DO need religion, every religion in this world has certain values, what we can learn from.
'Do not kill, Do not lie, Do not rape, Do not steal..etc', even if you do consider that as 'brainwashing', I am happy that we were 'brainwashed' in this way.

Ah, the "we need certain ideologies because of the good they produce" argument.

I don't disagree that ideologies I would regard as "bad", such as religion, actually have good values and morals. But they also have bad values and morals. It's like getting a box of chocolates -- some of the chocolates are good, some of the chocolates are bad. We as humans are built to either wholly accept an ideology, or reject all of it -- a lot of the time, we aren't raised to pick and choose.

That's something we need to change. We as humans can built better "ideologies", ones we make ourselves and contain only good values and morals. We need religion as much as we need superstition.

QuoteFor example, without religion;

why can't we kill people with disabilities?

Because they're still human?

QuoteThey don't contribute anything to sciety, so why not kill them?

Atheism does not equal social Darwinism.

QuoteAnd why is it bad to do that?

Because it's killing a person for no good reason.

QuoteSociety changes fast so do it's rules, but religious values stay.

And that's bad. We need to let go of religion and a lot of its primitive and archaic values.

Quote from: "iSok"why can't we kill people with disabilities?
They don't contribute anything to sciety and they do only cost us money.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.topnews.in%2Ffiles%2FStephen-Hawking_0.jpg&hash=ddcc057ea32b2e678090c1dbbe6259e36d94dd2e)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_KFkmq3xEbaM%2FTF3Q6i8UK1I%2FAAAAAAAAAOc%2FQAwmc_FAzmE%2Fs1600%2Fchristy-brown-0508-lg-95848046.jpg&hash=3fa36d2786ca2cbbf4760a19591f8fafee7cfc54)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clipartguide.com%2F_small%2F0512-0704-2518-5948.jpg&hash=9cf7c74071c079480c99fc3e5c06dfc88e516d1d)
 

Quote from: "iSok"We humans cannot differentiate between 'good' and 'evil', it's impossible for us without someone telling us.

perhaps YOU are unable to tell the difference (which would make you a sociopath)...the rest of us are able to figure it out on our own.

@Hackandslash,

I meant people with mental disability.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "iSok"We humans cannot differentiate between 'good' and 'evil', it's impossible for us without someone telling us.

perhaps YOU are unable to tell the difference (which would make you a sociopath)...the rest of us are able to figure it out on our own.

So that would mean that the majority of Nazi-German was evil? And all of them should be punished?
Hitler murdered people with disabilities, ethnic minorities etc...the Germans were alright with that.

And how would you figure that out?

The thing is, you can easily be indoctrinated, it would take a matter of days.
What does 'good' for you mean Whitney? What do you see as 'good'? What is your source?

Quote from: "iSok"@Hackandslash,

I meant people with mental disability.

They're still people with thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams, all that crap. Just because they're not as smart as someone like me doesn't mean we should kill them.

QuoteSo that would mean that the majority of Nazi-German was evil?

Evil according to me and most other people, yes.

QuoteAnd all of them should be punished?

It depends.

QuoteHitler murdered people with disabilities, ethnic minorities etc...the Germans were alright with that.

So?

QuoteAnd how would you figure that out?

...Figure out they were evil? With some rational thinking and common sense.

QuoteThe thing is, you can easily be indoctrinated, it would take a matter of days.

So?

Quote from: "iSok"So that would mean that the majority of Nazi-German was evil? And all of them should be punished?
Hitler murdered people with disabilities, ethnic minorities etc...the Germans were alright with that.

And how would you figure that out?

The thing is, you can easily be indoctrinated, it would take a matter of days.

They lived in a time where they thought they needed a political savior and Hitler was more than happy to be that person and offer his solution...throw in a bit of religious indoctrination and you have a recipe for getting good people to do bad things (one of the natzi indoctrination slogans was god with us) There were also many who did ignore the propaganda (government brainwashing) and did the right thing by helping those who were being harmed.

If it would only take a matter of days to indoctrinate me, I'd be a Christian as US society is constantly being bombarded by christian indoctrination techniques.  You really have no basis for assuming I am that weak minded.

As for how we can determine what is good or bad...for now let's just call it empathy and that normal people empathize with others unless they are reprogrammed to dehumanize a group of people...a full discussion of how e know right from wrong would be a derail and has been discussed on HAF before anyway.

QuoteThey're still people with thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams, all that crap. Just because they're not as smart as someone like me doesn't mean we should kill them.

Why not? Why do you see it as something evil?

QuoteEvil according to me and most other people, yes.

If you do believe in absolute evil,that means you believe in God.
Because 'evil' can be seen as the absence of God.
'Evil' does not exist in a world without God.

QuoteAnd all of them should be punished?

In that society, there were people with higher morals and better understanding of 'good' and 'evil' than you and I combined.
But they all fell prey to indoctrination, because we humans are weak.

Quote...Figure out they were evil? With some rational thinking and common sense.

If you just use rational thinking. Then it would be okay to kill people with disabilities.

They do not contribute to mankind.
They cost us money.
Therefore, we can end his/her life.
(exactly what Hitler did)

What do you see a common sense?

QuoteSo?

Man is weak, man needs someone to tell him what is wrong and what is right.
Therefore religion is needed in our society, even if you see it as falsehood.

Quote from: "iSok"If you just use rational thinking. Then it would be okay to kill people with disabilities.

They do not contribute to mankind.
They cost us money.
Therefore, we can end his/her life.
(exactly what Hitler did)
 

That has already been disproven with pictures of disabled people who DO contribute loads to society ...stop repeating non-points.

I know you are making these arguments just to make your own religion sound better but in the process you are making yourself sound like a person who would go on a murdering spree if they ever lost their religion...not the approach I would choose  

QuoteThey lived in a time where they thought they needed a political savior and Hitler was more than happy to be that person and offer his solution

This process did not happen in the past, but it still happens. In time of needs people seek a 'medecine' to every 'illness'
And it will happen again.

Quote...throw in a bit of religious indoctrination and you have a recipe for getting good people to do bad things (one of the natzi indoctrination slogans was god with us) There were also many who did ignore the propaganda (government brainwashing) and did the right thing by helping those who were being harmed.

Every ideology can be used in this process, sometimes you don't.
I do not know how big the influence was because of the slogan 'God is with us'.
The major part however was common indoctrination, which had nothing to do with religion but just to repeat the following sentence.

'The jew is weak, we are Superior'

Read about the experiment done at Standford University in 1971.
There's also a movie about it 'Das Experiment'.

QuoteIf it would only take a matter of days to indoctrinate me, I'd be a Christian as US society is constantly being bombarded by christian indoctrination techniques.  You really have no basis for assuming I am that weak minded.

It would be different if the US came after each and every atheist, therefore isolating you. Then it wouldn't take that long.
This also happened in Germany, in isolation, it won't take too long. No matter how strong-minded you are.

QuoteAs for how we can determine what is good or bad...for now let's just call it empathy and that normal people empathize with others unless they are reprogrammed to dehumanize a group of people...a full discussion of how e know right from wrong would be a derail and has been discussed on HAF before anyway.

I'll end this discussion here then.

Quote from: "Whitney"That has already been disproven with pictures of disabled people who DO contribute loads to society ...stop repeating non-points.

I know you are making these arguments just to make your own religion sound better but in the process you are making yourself sound like a person who would go on a murdering spree if they ever lost their religion...not the approach I would choose  :D

I meant people with mental disability's...who do not contribute anything to society.
Hitler killed those people so the 'Aryan' race could be 'perfect'.
The spartans did the same, they threw their newborns if they looked weak off from a cliff.
I am giving you these arguments not just for the sake of my religion, but for every religion.

Your ultimate source of 'good' and 'bad' is the Bible.

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteThey're still people with thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams, all that crap. Just because they're not as smart as someone like me doesn't mean we should kill them.

Why not? Why do you see it as something evil?

Why shouldn't I?

Quote

QuoteEvil according to me and most other people, yes.

If you do believe in absolute evil,that means you believe in God.

What kind of fallacy is this called, again?

QuoteBecause 'evil' can be seen as the absence of God.

Key word: "can".

Quote'Evil' does not exist in a world without God.

According to you; though I would agree that objective evil most likely doesn't exist.

Quote

QuoteAnd all of them should be punished?

In that society, there were people with higher morals and better understanding of 'good' and 'evil' than you and I combined.
But they all fell prey to indoctrination, because we humans are weak.

There is no "better" or "worse" when everything is subjective. And what is your point? That people can be fooled?

Quote

Quote...Figure out they were evil? With some rational thinking and common sense.

If you just use rational thinking. Then it would be okay to kill people with disabilities.

Why?

QuoteThey do not contribute to mankind.

Not necessarily, and so?

QuoteThey cost us money.

So?

QuoteTherefore, we can end his/her life.
(exactly what Hitler did)

I wouldn't call that rational thinking, as I wouldn't call treating human life as a product where you can destroy it if it doesn't satisfy your needs rational.

QuoteWhat do you see a common sense?

A lot of things.

Basically, I see it as pragmatic thinking.

QuoteMan is weak, man needs someone to tell him what is wrong and what is right.

No he doesn't.

QuoteTherefore religion is needed in our society, even if you see it as falsehood.

Even if you are right and an ideology is needed, I can think up a better ideology than Islam.

QuoteEven if you are right and an ideology is needed, I can think up a better ideology than Islam.

The difference between your ideology and Islam, is that it can be altered, and changed. Since it's not seen as 'divine'.
Which is my point.

Quote from: "iSok"Your ultimate source of 'good' and 'bad' is the Bible.

Would you consider killing millions of people (babies, kids, the unborn as well as men and women), good or bad?

Quote from: "iSok"Your ultimate source of 'good' and 'bad' is the Bible.

 

QuoteWould you consider killing millions of people (babies, kids, the unborn as well as men and women), good or bad?

That would be 'bad' by human hands.

Quote from: "Whitney"

So you deny that the society you live in, used the Bible as it's foundation?

Quote from: "iSok"Your ultimate source of 'good' and 'bad' is the Bible.

That is an insult.

Quote from: "iSok"The difference between your ideology and Islam, is that it can be altered, and changed. Since it's not seen as 'divine'.
Which is my point.

What relevance does your point have? Who cares?

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteWould you consider killing millions of people (babies, kids, the unborn as well as men and women), good or bad?

That would be 'bad' by human hands.

But since God did it, it's all fine and dandy.

QuoteSo you deny that the society you live in, used the Bible as it's foundation?

Yes. Despite popular stupidity, the USA was NOT founded on Christian principles, morals, or ethics, nor on the Bible (good God, definitely not the Bible). And even if it was, are you saying that are all our morals HAVE to reflect our society? That we can't think for ourselves?

QuoteBut since God did it, it's all fine and dandy.

Davin meant the millions of people dying in wars, earth quakes, floods, genocides..etc?
And why God does that? Or did he mean something else?

QuoteYes. Despite popular stupidity, the USA was NOT founded on Christian principles, morals, or ethics, nor on the Bible (good God, definitely not the Bible). And even if it was, are you saying that are all our morals HAVE to reflect our society? That we can't think for ourselves?

I hope I am not stupid, you and I are both young and have a lot to learn.

Could you tell me on what basics the U.S.A. was founded?
What are the principles, and how did people came to those principles?

Simple, like anything else, just say it.  Take any discussions until they become simple insults/conversion attempts.  At that point, walk away and let -them- deal with their objections on their own -- after all, it's their problem.

Quote from: "iSok"So you deny that the society you live in, used the Bible as it's foundation?

Yes...but that's a non-issue as we are talking about current times and not history.

Hardly anyone in our society is currently taught to utilize the bible as their sole source of understanding moral questions....the ones who do use it as their sole source (without also using their brains) end up being bigoted fundamentalists because the bible contains archaic moral ideas from a dead society that was not yet morally mature.

Most people in US society are tolerant (if not accepting) of homosexuals, women are viewed as equal to men (rather than subservient as is sugested by the bible) and a growing number are pro choice (even if they are personally against abortion)...are you still wanting to argue that the general morality of the US is bible based?

Even IF the average person's morality were based on the bible it wouldn't make sense to tell someone who is not a bible believer that their morality is based on the bible (as that would be impossible as biblical morality makes disbelief in God a bad thing).

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteWould you consider killing millions of people (babies, kids, the unborn as well as men and women), good or bad?

That would be 'bad' by human hands.

So you don't believe in objective morality?

Quote from: "iSok"Could you tell me on what basics the U.S.A. was founded?
What are the principles, and how did people came to those principles?

The US of A was founded on _Freedom_, not religion.  Freedom of religion was only one of those freedoms, most of which are now being ignored in favor of religious fervor.  It's ridiculous, some of the arguments, e.g. "If the founding fathers really meant 'total separation of church and state', then why is "In God We Trust' on our money and 'under God' in our pledge of allegiance?"  Uhm, which of the founding fathers were around in the 1950s?  That one _really_ irks me, because the men who wrote those founding documents were some of the most brilliant minds of their age.  It's like saying they weren't articulate enough to say what they meant.  The language of the docs was intentionally simple, because they wanted _all_ men to be able to understand them, and were hoping to make them straight-forward enough that they could not be messed with later on.  Unfortunately TPTB will find a way to twist things to their benefit no matter what is done to try to prevent it.

(See aslo this (http://majik.betatesters.com/Religion.htm), if you wish.)

Quote from: "iSok"Could you tell me on what basics the U.S.A. was founded?
What are the principles, and how did people came to those principles?

The colonies were started because people wanted freedom of religion and/or a new start in a promising new world
The US split from Britian because people got pissed off that they were being taxed without representation.
Declaration of Independence:  http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/ (http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/)
Constitution: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charte ... ution.html (http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution.html)
You will not find Bible or the 10 commandments in there anywhere.

This is not a history class. If you want to know any more than that, go research it.  I frankly find it telling that you were making claims about the foundations of the US without having known anything about it...perhaps you should not make claims about things you know nothing about.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "iSok"So you deny that the society you live in, used the Bible as it's foundation?

Yes...but that's a non-issue as we are talking about current times and not history.

Hardly anyone in our society is currently taught to utilize the bible as their sole source of understanding moral questions....the ones who do use it as their sole source (without also using their brains) end up being bigoted fundamentalists because the bible contains archaic moral ideas from a dead society that was not yet morally mature.

Most people in US society are tolerant (if not accepting) of homosexuals, women are viewed as equal to men (rather than subservient as is sugested by the bible) and a growing number are pro choice (even if they are personally against abortion)...are you still wanting to argue that the general morality of the US is bible based?

Even IF the average person's morality were based on the bible it wouldn't make sense to tell someone who is not a bible believer that their morality is based on the bible (as that would be impossible as biblical morality makes disbelief in God a bad thing).

I asked a friend of mine a few minutes ago, a student of philosophy.
It's a bit confusing, whenever I hear Obama or Bush, it's always 'God bless America!'.
Or the abortion and gay rights in the US are a big issue.

But my friend just told me that the US was founded on a secular system...which shocked me.
The U.S.A. is now regarded as the capital of Christianity, Obama himself can apply for pope...

But what I meant, is that we are certainly influenced by certain values in the Bible, every western society is.
I'll end the discussion here.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteWould you consider killing millions of people (babies, kids, the unborn as well as men and women), good or bad?

That would be 'bad' by human hands.

So you don't believe in objective morality?

I don't

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteBut since God did it, it's all fine and dandy.

Davin meant the millions of people dying in wars, earth quakes, floods, genocides..etc?
And why God does that? Or did he mean something else?

He meant that the God of the Bible is evil, cruel, and stupid. It's not a good book to found your moral principles on.

Quote

QuoteYes. Despite popular stupidity, the USA was NOT founded on Christian principles, morals, or ethics, nor on the Bible (good God, definitely not the Bible). And even if it was, are you saying that are all our morals HAVE to reflect our society? That we can't think for ourselves?

I hope I am not stupid, you and I are both young and have a lot to learn.

Could you tell me on what basics the U.S.A. was founded?

Read the Constitution.

QuoteWhat are the principles, and how did people came to those principles?

Probably from common sense and rational thinking.

QuoteI asked a friend of mine a few minutes ago, a student of philosophy.
It's a bit confusing, whenever I hear Obama or Bush, it's always 'God bless America!'.
Or the abortion and gay rights in the US are a big issue.

But my friend just told me that the US was founded on a secular system...which shocked me.
The U.S.A. is now regarded as the capital of Christianity, Obama himself can apply for pope...

But what I meant, is that we are certainly influenced by certain values in the Bible, every western society is.
I'll end the discussion here.

The USA is secular, but idiots are trying to push religion into it.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Davin"So you don't believe in objective morality?

I don't

Ok, just wondering.

Most Christians do not base their morality on the bible, they spend a great deal of time distancing themselves from all but the ten commandments(even though most have been shown to not even know them) in the old testimate. And even quote a bit of the new testimate. Saying that anyone's ultimate guide to good and bad is the bible is very inaccurate.

Quote from: "Davin"Most Christians do not base their morality on the bible, they spend a great deal of time distancing themselves from all but the ten commandments(even though most have been shown to not even know them) in the old testimate. And even quote a bit of the new testimate. Saying that anyone's ultimate guide to good and bad is the bible is very inaccurate.

If Christians follow the Ten Commandments, why don't they "Keep the Sabbath Holy"?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Davin"Most Christians do not base their morality on the bible, they spend a great deal of time distancing themselves from all but the ten commandments(even though most have been shown to not even know them) in the old testimate. And even quote a bit of the new testimate. Saying that anyone's ultimate guide to good and bad is the bible is very inaccurate.

If Christians follow the Ten Commandments, why don't they "Keep the Sabbath Holy"?

I've yet to see anyone who does make an attempt follow all of them any more, which is why also added that most don't even know what they are. What I meant was that most of the Christians I talk to (who try to bring up god to me), are quick to distance themselves from all the bad bits by saying the old testimate is not followed but they usually offer an exception to the ten commandments, and that we should really follow the new testimate... until you bring up things like in Judges 13 where Jephthah sacrifices his daughter because god helped him kill a bunch of people.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"If Christians follow the Ten Commandments, why don't they "Keep the Sabbath Holy"?

Excellent question.  One you might want to pose, not to "Christians", but rather to the proponents of the 9 Commandments.
FYI, there are Christians that endeavor to "keep" the 4th, while understanding that we cannot "keep" any of God's law perfectly.  If we could, that fairy tale Jesus needn't have come and died.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"If Christians follow the Ten Commandments, why don't they "Keep the Sabbath Holy"?

Excellent question.  One you might want to pose, not to "Christians", but rather to the proponents of the 9 Commandments.
FYI, there are Christians that endeavor to "keep" the 4th, while understanding that we cannot "keep" any of God's law perfectly.  If we could, that fairy tale Jesus needn't have come and died.

So, wait, it's okay to chronically break one of the Ten Commandments because of Jesus?  

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"So, wait, it's okay to chronically break one of the Ten Commandments because of Jesus?  

Depends what you mean by Chronically.

I don't want to be accused of preaching.  The short answer is we know what is right and wrong and therefore ought to act accordingly.  To rationalize sin is to disregard God's law as holy and thumb our noses at God claiming, "I can do this because I have freedom to sin being covered by Christ's righteousness."  That is one claiming to be a Christian when he/she is not one at all.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"So, wait, it's okay to chronically break one of the Ten Commandments because of Jesus?  

Depends what you mean by Chronically.

I don't want to be accused of preaching.  The short answer is we know what is right and wrong and therefore ought to act accordingly.  To rationalize sin is to disregard God's law as holy and thumb our noses at God claiming, "I can do this because I have freedom to sin being covered by Christ's righteousness."  That is one claiming to be a Christian when he/she is not one at all.

No Christian I know of "keeps the Sabbath holy", or even attempts to.

Do you?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"So, wait, it's okay to chronically break one of the Ten Commandments because of Jesus?  

Depends what you mean by Chronically.

I don't want to be accused of preaching.  The short answer is we know what is right and wrong and therefore ought to act accordingly.  To rationalize sin is to disregard God's law as holy and thumb our noses at God claiming, "I can do this because I have freedom to sin being covered by Christ's righteousness."  That is one claiming to be a Christian when he/she is not one at all.

No Christian I know of "keeps the Sabbath holy", or even attempts to.

Do you?

Maybe you should do a simple query on g00gle instead of making such a statement.  YOU may not know one, that hardly makes your statement so.

If you want to discuss, I suppose a thread specifically on this would be better than hijacking this.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Maybe you should do a simple query on g00gle instead of making such a statement.  YOU may not know one, that hardly makes your statement so.

If you want to discuss, I suppose a thread specifically on this would be better than hijacking this.

I searched, and I couldn't find any Christians saying they keep the Sabbath holy, just a bunch of rationalizations for why it's okay to break one of the Ten Commandments, God's holy, eternal, unchanging moral code and truth about how we should live our lives.

By the way, this thread was derailed long ago.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Maybe you should do a simple query on g00gle instead of making such a statement.  YOU may not know one, that hardly makes your statement so.

If you want to discuss, I suppose a thread specifically on this would be better than hijacking this.

I searched, and I couldn't find any Christians saying they keep the Sabbath holy, just a bunch of rationalizations for why it's okay to break one of the Ten Commandments, God's holy, eternal, unchanging moral code and truth about how we should live our lives.

By the way, this thread was derailed long ago.

Try searching for Seventh Day Adventists  

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Maybe you should do a simple query on g00gle instead of making such a statement.  YOU may not know one, that hardly makes your statement so.

If you want to discuss, I suppose a thread specifically on this would be better than hijacking this.

I searched, and I couldn't find any Christians saying they keep the Sabbath holy, just a bunch of rationalizations for why it's okay to break one of the Ten Commandments, God's holy, eternal, unchanging moral code and truth about how we should live our lives.

By the way, this thread was derailed long ago.

Try searching for Seventh Day Adventists  

Okay, but that's just one sect.

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteI also understand that he got jealous with regards to other men looking at his wives and hence a revelation which was documented into the Qur'an was that his own wifes should be veiled.

Do you have a source and can you share it with me, and what verse you are talking about?

My source is a book called "Nine parts of desire - the hidden world of Islamic women" by Geraldine Brooks.
A phrase from this book
"The word 'hijab' literally means 'curtain' and it is used in the Qur'an as an instruction to believers of Muhammad's day on how they should deal with the prophet's wives:
(If you ask his wives for anything speak to them from behind a curtain. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts.) The revelation on hihab came to Muhammad on one of his wedding nights, just as he was about to bed Zeinab, the most controversial of his brides."

Re-reading this part I can also see how Muhammad put other things into the Qu'ran to suit his own lifestyle.
The marriage to Zeinab caused an uproar since it violated the rules of incest set down in the Qu'ran (Zeinab was the wife of Muhammad's adopted son, who noticed that Zeinab had caught the eye of Muhammed so he divorced her so that his father could take her as his wife)
"The uproar subsided only when Muhammad had a new revelation proclaiming all adoptions invalid, and therefore exempting himself from the rule that barred a father from marrying the wife of a son"


In my own opinion it all just seems rather odd with regards to how Arabs at the time treated women. Even Muhammad, who seemed to treat woman much better than the average Arab, but in my opinion in today's time this is just not good enough. Even now in many Arabic countries women are treated very poorly especially in Saudi Arabia which the "Nine Parts of Desire" talks a lot about. The book starts off with Geraldine talking about an experience while booking a hotel room in Saudi Arabia.
"The hotel receptionist held my reservation card in his hand. 'Mr Geraldine Brooks' he read 'But you are a woman'
Yes I agreed, that was so.
'I'm sorry, but our reservation clerk has made a mistake.'
'That's OK' i said "just add an (s) and make it (Mrs)'
'No' he said 'You don't understand. I can't give you a room. It's against the law for women.'
I glanced around the hotel's gleaming lobby. 'What about them?' I said, nodding my head in the direction of two black cloaked Saudis heading for the elevator.
'They are here with their husband' the receptionist explained.
'In Saudi Arabia a lady does not travel alone. There is no reason for it. Unless she is a prostitute'"

This type of stuff certainly does not give Arab nations and the Islamic faith a good name.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Whitney"Try searching for Seventh Day Adventists  

Okay, but that's just one sect.

It seems that some people are pretty lazy when it comes to things they have no REAL interest in.  One search on g00gle turned up many links including this one.  It would be wise to read the paragraphs that preceed the list of Sabbath Keeping Denominations.  I'm not even sure all of these are denominations, but rather many may simply be one physical church.
Sabbath Observing Denominations (http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/sabbathkeepingchurches.html)
This website deliberately doesn't mention their religious affiliation.  I wish it would.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Whitney"Try searching for Seventh Day Adventists  

Okay, but that's just one sect.

It seems that some people are pretty lazy when it comes to things they have no REAL interest in.  One search on g00gle turned up many links including this one.  It would be wise to read the paragraphs that preceed the list of Sabbath Keeping Denominations.  I'm not even sure all of these are denominations, but rather many may simply be one physical church.
Sabbath Observing Denominations (http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/sabbathkeepingchurches.html)
This website deliberately doesn't mention their religious affiliation.  I wish it would.

True. What search terms did you use?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"True. What search terms did you use?

"sabbath keepers"  The link above was the 6th on the list.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"True. What search terms did you use?

"sabbath keepers"  The link above was the 6th on the list.

I searched for "Christians who keep the Sabbath" and "Christians who observe the Sabbath".

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"True. What search terms did you use?

"sabbath keepers"  The link above was the 6th on the list.

I searched for "Christians who keep the Sabbath" and "Christians who observe the Sabbath".

Too specific...simple is better sometimes.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Too specific...simple is better sometimes.

Yeah, but I wasn't sure how to simplify it. Anyways, you're right -- I'm not that interested in it. Christians, like everyone else, are largely hypocrites. It's not surprise.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Too specific...simple is better sometimes.

Yeah, but I wasn't sure how to simplify it. Anyways, you're right -- I'm not that interested in it. Christians, like everyone else, are largely hypocrites. It's not surprise.

Like everyone else?  Yet you insist on emphasizing Christians...interesting.

...and Christians are said to be deluded and without logic.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"No Christian I know of "keeps the Sabbath holy", or even attempts to.

Do you?

Here is a famous case. Michael Jones was one of the best rugby players in the best rugby team in the world. It seems Michael is going to be very lonely in heaven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jones_%28rugby_union%29
"His international career was also affected by his strong Christian beliefs, as he refused to play on Sundays"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Too specific...simple is better sometimes.

Yeah, but I wasn't sure how to simplify it. Anyways, you're right -- I'm not that interested in it. Christians, like everyone else, are largely hypocrites. It's not surprise.

Like everyone else?  Yet you insist on emphasizing Christians...interesting.

...and Christians are said to be deluded and without logic.

And you insist on emphasizing that you perceive that I emphasized that Christians are hypocrites. Interesting.

I do believe that Christians are deluded. They're not all without logic, obviously.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I do believe that Christians are deluded. They're not all without logic, obviously.

Just the ones that don't belong to the WBC...then?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I do believe that Christians are deluded. They're not all without logic, obviously.

Just the ones that don't belong to the WBC...then?

Stop making straw men.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I do believe that Christians are deluded. They're not all without logic, obviously.

Just the ones that don't belong to the WBC...then?

Stop making straw men.

It isn't my creation...

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"It isn't my creation...

I think the WBC is a group of hateful, ignorant fuckwits, but I do believe they are taking the Bible literally, and following its words and the example it sets better than any other group of Christians. I don't think they're more logical.