Happy Atheist Forum

Hello there (I come in peace),

As the title says it, I guess you know I am a muslim.
First of all let me introduce myself.

I'm a 21 year old male living in the Netherlands.
I study structural design at the University of Technology in Eindhoven.

I have always been fascinated by other people's believe, and their way of life.
And how they found their answers. Please I do not want to insult or hurt anyone's feeling, do not get me wrong.

I just wondered, what are basically the argument of atheists that they do not believe in God?

- Is it because off lack of proof?
- Because how believers behave (christians, jews, muslims), and that their behaviour goes against your principles? (9/11, Palestine, Persection of muslims in christians in Indonesia)
- Because of the suffering and 'evil' in this world?
- Because of children who die at the age of 5 due to Leukemia?
- Because religion is evil, and makes people evil?

I guess there are more arguments, if so, please include them.

Now you must wonder, why is this suicide bomber sitting in a cave in Afghanistan and starting a topic on this forum?
And what are his intentions?

Well, I hope I can start a discussion about Islam, and the view of Islam on life.
In my opinion, I think many people do not know how Islam answers these questions.
I think Islam also should have his turn, so people can evaluate it for themselves.

I hope my topic is welcome here, I really do not want to hurt anyone's feelings.
Life is about experience and learning, something we will all agree upon, no matter what our believes are.
So let us learn from eachother.

I hope we can start a good discussion, please accept me at least as a brother in humanity.

Hello iSok.

Thanks for the introduction.  You seem to have a realistic outlook and an open mind to other views.

You've hit on many of the reasons that atheists lack belief in god.

Although I do believe in a god, I've found far too many issues with religion and their definition of god.
Religion has a great capacity for good, and for evil. The conflicting rules, stories, and descriptions definitely don't help.
In the end, I'm not convinced it's worth the time, energy and effort.  Better to directly address issues than work through a frankly confusing intermediary...

Well, that's my 2 cents.  Nice to meet you.  Looking forward to more conversations on the forum.

Welcome,
JoeActor

Quote from: "iSok"I just wondered, what are basically the argument of atheists that they do not believe in God?

- Is it because off lack of proof?

Yes that does it for me.

I have concerns that the earth is limited, but some religions seem to encourage big families.
This is the only world I've got, or expect to have, is Islam onside on making it last?

Quote from: "iSok"Hello there (I come in peace),

Welcome.

Quote- Is it because off lack of proof?

No, because proof is only applicable in formal axiomatic systems. What we lack is evidential support.

QuoteIn my opinion, I think many people do not know how Islam answers these questions.

It doesn't answer these questions. It merely erects assertions with regard to what it thinks are the answers.

QuoteSo let us learn from eachother.

Admirable indeed.

QuoteI hope we can start a good discussion, please accept me at least as a brother in humanity.

Welcome, brother.

Hi iSok, and a warm welcome.  I'm an atheist in the sense that I take the view that God doesn't exist.  This is probably a lot different from what most people who describe themselves as atheists would say, but obviously I'd let them speak for themselves.

I feel so confident that God doesn't exist that I'm not too unhappy about putting myself in religious settings.  I tend not to, probably because I find religious on a mundane level quite boring.  At heart my view is that I can't imagine myself ever changing my position and becoming a believer in any kind of God.  Therefore I can be in a congregation quite happily saying the words, "I believe in God the father" when actually I don't believe in any such thing.  I think a lot of atheists would have quite a big problem with even walking into a church, or a mosque, let alone chanting out hymns or prayers - for them it would be a point of principle not to even say the things they do not positively believe.  In practice I don't spend much time in any congregation really.  I've probably been in about ten in the last 30 years.

Religion and its beliefs, and the idea of God, are created by humans, and I tend to find things created by humans are quite enthralling.  Obviously there are some exceptions, like genocide.  Fortunately genocide doesn't happen in my street much.   The sounds and music of religion I often find quite beautiful - because they're invented by humans who can be extremely talented.  I find islamic culture interesting, even everyday sounds like the call to prayer can seem quite mesmerising.  I know the intonation of mid-eastern music often grates with the western ear, but I find if I get tuned in, it can be very engaging.  I'd love to find out out more about islam, really - so much of the time I feel it is on the defensive, so it doesn't get much of hearing.

For me it is the complete lack of evidence for any sort of deity.  I spent years searching and came up empty-handed.  

As for how islam answers such questions, I admit I have no studied it as much as I have the various flavors of christianity; however, like hackenslash, I have found it to also be nothing more than empty assertions.

I admire the posts, thanks for reading my topic even while posting this, I have to check if someone posted a new message.
Mankind should be open minded, in order to understand each other.


As you know, I am a student, and I am currently studying for tests (january is is the famous month).
I hope you understand I won't be able to reply to every question, I'm sorry for that, it's just because of lack off time.


Instead of answering every question individually.
Do you mind if I start a few posts about the following subjects?
Just to give a basic introduction.

- God, according to islamic belief.

- Why did he create man? And why all the suffering, the evil. Why is it here, if God can vanish it?

- What does this life mean to us?

- What is mankind's destiny?

Quote from: "iSok"Do you mind if I start a few posts about the following subjects?
Just to give a basic introduction.

- God, according to islamic belief.

- Why did he create man? And why all the suffering, the evil. Why is it here, if God can vanish it?

- What does this life mean to us?

- What is mankind's destiny?

No but the thing is, man created God, so it might lead to some arguments.  Have you got any links to good islamic music websites instead?  Also do you know or does anyone know what a formal axiomatic system is and why evidential support would be necessary outside of one?

Quote from: "iSok"I admire the posts, thanks for reading my topic even while posting this, I have to check if someone posted a new message.
Mankind should be open minded, in order to understand each other.


As you know, I am a student, and I am currently studying for tests (january is is the famous month).
I hope you understand I won't be able to reply to every question, I'm sorry for that, it's just because of lack off time.


Instead of answering every question individually.
Do you mind if I start a few posts about the following subjects?
Just to give a basic introduction.

- God, according to islamic belief.

- Why did he create man? And why all the suffering, the evil. Why is it here, if God can vanish it?

- What does this life mean to us?

- What is mankind's destiny?

Welcome aboard iSok

I strongly suggest you only start one thread as there is only one of you and many of us. Thus for each post you make you could end up with 5 replies (or more) if you start 4 threads you are gong to be looking at 20 replies to deal with, each of which could well result in 5 more replies thus within a matter of days you could be trying to cope with 100 replies. You won't be able to keep up in quantity or quality. You will thus become frustrated and upset by the sheer volume of work you will have to cope with.

If you hope to add and receive value then start one simple thread and stick to it until it is resolved.

Regards
Chris

Hi ISok, welcome to the forum (and peace to you).

I think that there are different reasons, why people don't believe or no longer believe in God(s).

For me, it was a part of the growing up process. When I was young, I went to Catholic church with my father on Sunday. The church was impressive, the rituals were mysterious and all people were dressed up nicely, but what the priest was saying didn't make much sense to me. Every mass looked and sounded the same, so the novelty worn off pretty quickly and I got quickly bored.  At around the age of 10, I realized that going to church was for some people nothing more than a cultural tradition and for others a kind of social event. So, instead of listening to a rambling priest, I decided that my time was better spent on playing football.

Only a few years later I really started to think about the meaning of "Life, Universe and Everything". My answer to that question was not religion (nor 42  ) , but more like, enjoy and respect "Life", be in awe of the "Universe" and leave the "Everything" to the more philosophical and "spiritual" people. By comparing the different religions, I found out that they all had some good things in common, but also some bad traits (with perhaps Buddhism as the only exception). In any case, I just couldn't connect myself to their idea, that there were some mythical beings involved in the creation of the universe and that they would somehow care about what people think or do.

I have nothing against people, who do believe in God(s). I don't think that they are stupid or misguided. They've just came to an other conclusion than I did; and I respect them for that. Live in peace and harmony is my motto in life. I just happen to believe in one God less than you do. For the rest, we are indeed both brothers in humanity.

Quote from: "iSok"Hello there (I come in peace),

Hello and welcome.

QuoteI just wondered, what are basically the argument of atheists that they do not believe in God?

- Is it because off lack of proof?
- Because how believers behave (christians, jews, muslims), and that their behaviour goes against your principles? (9/11, Palestine, Persection of muslims in christians in Indonesia)
- Because of the suffering and 'evil' in this world?
- Because of children who die at the age of 5 due to Leukemia?
- Because religion is evil, and makes people evil?

I guess there are more arguments, if so, please include them.

Most atheistic arguments are simply refutations of Theistic arguments.

QuoteWell, I hope I can start a discussion about Islam, and the view of Islam on life.
In my opinion, I think many people do not know how Islam answers these questions.
I think Islam also should have his turn, so people can evaluate it for themselves.

Want to know why I don't believe in Allah? Islam answers the same questions as Judeo/Christian gods do. Allah doesn't exist as I am sure Superman. Perhaps the total lack of evidence that magic actually exists. Gods are magical constructs and wield magical powers, such as creating everything from nothing for example. Magic does not exist and never has. Ergo gods do not exist.

Have at it. Give Allah his best shot.

I have no reason to believe in gods and yet I do have reasons not to believe in any god ever described to me, especially the Abrahamic one.

Gods are unnecessary and there is no evidence to support their existence, so why would I want to waste my mental capacity believing in them..?

Quote from: "Asmodean"so why would I want to waste my mental capacity believing in them..?

Something to do..?

Quote from: "Cecilie"Something to do..?

I think my mind is better spent contemplating new plot twists in my book  

Quote from: "Cecilie"

Quote from: "Asmodean"so why would I want to waste my mental capacity believing in them..?

Something to do..?

*laffin*....That struck me pretty funny.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Cecilie"Something to do..?

I think my mind is better spent contemplating new plot twists in my book  

I'm sure the Bible has plot twists as well. Jesus becoming a zombie... Who saw that coming?

Quote from: "Cecilie"I'm sure the Bible has plot twists as well. Jesus becoming a zombie... Who saw that coming?

I did, for one... That one is ye old crappy variety zombie flake from page one.  

First of all, thank you so much for all the warm welcomes.
I have to say, I didn’t expect this kindness.

Existentialist
The reason I came here is to discuss about the believe in God
from Islamic perspective. With discussing this, I will give proof for the existence of God.
Yes it may be shocking that I think that there is proof, and you may think that I am deluted, but please bear with me till I have posted it.
I hope you can let me do that, it is for us individually to determine whether that proof is consistent.
I will post these points in my upcoming replies.

About the Islamic music, I understand you don’t mean culture-related, but rather religious ‘music’.
We don’t really call it music, but it is indeed mesmerising. I can give you a link to youtube, which is in my opinion is the most beautiful call to prayer I’ve heard so far (the adhan/azan).
Here’s the link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAvlimEYEpQ   - I hope you’ll enjoy it.
The translation is included in the video description in case you are interested.

The second link: http://www.mounthira.com/index.php?a=downloads
On the page, download in audio section ‘Ayatul kursi’, A beautiful recitation.
It’s a verse from the Qur’an, which muslims regard as the most important.
In times of hardship muslims recite this verse to strengthen the soul.
If you do need more, please say so.

I will only use this topic regarding to Islam.

I’ll start regarding the first question.
Here we go.






- Who is God/Allah?

Well God/Allah are the same, muslims call God, Allah. The same God as the God of the christians and the jews. Why the name Allah? I can explain it, but I think I have a lot of basic info to give first.
We regard Allah as One, Eternal, Omnipotent, the First, the Last, nor is he Succeeded, nor is he Preceded.  Muslims regard Jezus Christ as messenger of Allah and do not believe in the trinity.


- The creation of Mankind.

I can explain this subject in detail, but I’ll try to give a summary.
We believe that angels do not possess an own will, they are creatures made of light to command the will of God. When God told the angels that He is going to put a vicegerent on Earth, the angels asked Him why He would do that? The angels asked: Why would you put a being on Earth which is going to spread corruption, evil and ignorance, while we already follow every command?
When Adam was created, God gave Adam intellect and reason. In the Qur’an it’s stated that God showed Adam the names of ‘things’. It’s unclear what these ‘things’ were. Some Islamic scholars suggest that He showed the best of mankind to Adam that would follow.
So God answered to the angels: Yes he can do evil deeds, but he can also do good things.

So up till now, Adam was created. He was given intellect, reason and an own will.
God told Adam and his wife that they are free to do whatever they want in the garden.
Except, eating from a certain tree. You all know the story and what happened next.
However this was not a bad thing, but this was an important step.
Eating from a tree that God forbade you, symbolizes mankind’s own will.
God was not angry or wrathful when that happened, that step was necessary, that is
the first time mankind used his own will.
After God told Adam that he would had to go to Earth to live there for a certain period, Adam was shocked. But God promised that He will guide him if he wants too and that there is nothing
to be afraid of.


- So what does this life mean?

According to Islamic believe, mankind did not commit some evil sin and this world is not regarded as an punishment. But it is necessary for our development. Development?

Well, in the womb you are physically developed, this world is meant for the development of your soul. The Qur’an tells us that we will suffer and that we should embrace it, since suffering will shape our soul. It tells us to be patient during times of hardship, when all the odds are against you, man needs to control himself, without losing his mind.
God’s spirit is in mankind we believe. Factors like Forgiving, Strong, Knowledge, Mercy, Love, Defender, Justice, Compassion, all of these factors within our soul come from a greater source, and that source is God.

And this life is meant for either growing that, or destroying that. You grow in these things by listening to your consciousness. The suffering, the evil in this world is meant for our development.
We cannot appreciate good, without seeing evil.
We cannot appreciate love, without losing it.
We cannot experience ‘strongness’, without suffering.
We cannot appreciate justice, without seeing corruption.

The Qur’an tells us from time to time: ‘You are here to grow..’
So in short, according to Islamic believes. This world is meant for our development, we can either grow towards God, but we can also ignore Him and do the opposite.
In either way we believe that God will not send you to ‘hell’ but you will send yourself to ‘hell’  by destroying your soul (doing things that you regard as ‘evil’ by your moral).
This world is the final stage of our creation, and our will plays a crucial role in our development.
We can eventually be better than angels but we can also be worse than ‘devils’.

- Is the Earth unique?

No, the Qur’an tells us that there is also life elsewhere, and that we will meet ‘them’ in the future.


I hope this makes some sense. If there are any questions, please then say so. I will try to answer as many as possible. In the next post, I will try to explain the four books a bit.
We believe all four came from God and many others. But the only book that stayed the
‘true word of God’ is the Qur’an.
(Torah, Psalms, New Testament, Qur’an)

Now you probably wonder how I got so much free time?

I'm an atheist for a lot of the reasons you cited in your first post. The big reason is a lack of proof -- indeed, the Judeo-Christian God even has evidence against his existence; like the problem of evil, for example, which I've been discussing in this thread (http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6552).

Until you can not only give me proof of Allah's existence, but reasons why the apparent contradictions and blatant absurdities aren't so, then I have every reason to reject him.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I'm an atheist for a lot of the reasons you cited in your first post. The big reason is a lack of proof -- indeed, the Judeo-Christian God even has evidence against his existence; like the problem of evil, for example, which I've been discussing in this thread (http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6552).

Until you can not only give me proof of Allah's existence, but reasons why the apparent contradictions and blatant absurdities aren't so, then I have every reason to reject him.

Can you be more specific?
Did you read my post above? It explains why there is evil and why it has too exist.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I'm an atheist for a lot of the reasons you cited in your first post. The big reason is a lack of proof -- indeed, the Judeo-Christian God even has evidence against his existence; like the problem of evil, for example, which I've been discussing in this thread (http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6552).

Until you can not only give me proof of Allah's existence, but reasons why the apparent contradictions and blatant absurdities aren't so, then I have every reason to reject him.

Can you be more specific?
Did you read my post above? It explains why there is evil and why it has too exist.

I can't believe you actually explained the existance of evil in a few lines. If you do then you really need to try a lot lot harder iSok.

Quote from: "Tank"I can't believe you actually explained the existance of evil in a few lines. If you do then you really need to try a lot lot harder iSok.

Well, I'm sorry for any misunderstandings.|
I did not study this matter in depth, I am reading about it.


I think evil is everything which goes against God's spirit in us.
What exactly that spirit means and what it is composed from, is stated in the Qur'an, through out it's verses.

- Compassion
- Knowledge
- Strong
- Justice
- Love
- Forgiving
- Caring
- Mercy
- Wise
- Patience
- Living
- Friend

and so on (99 of them in total) ...all come from the source, which is God. (the 99 names of God)
God's 100th name is 'Allah'.

This is a mere speculation..some won't even care.
On your left handpalm 81 is written in Arabic, your right palm has 18 written on it.
Combined is 99. We don't have the 100th name.


That what goes against these values = evil
Basically mankind needs evil to determine these values.
It needs to see evil, before it can distinguish between evil and good.

I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
 

Quote from: "Tank"I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
 :D

Quote from: "iSok"We believe that angels do not possess an own will, they are creatures made of light to command the will of God. When God told the angels that He is going to put a vicegerent on Earth, the angels asked Him why He would do that? The angels asked: Why would you put a being on Earth which is going to spread corruption, evil and ignorance, while we already follow every command?

Good question. If God already made angels, beings who would follow his every command unquestioningly, then why would it be bad for humans to be like such? Why did he even want to make humans in the first place?

QuoteWhen Adam was created, God gave Adam intellect and reason.

Why, if they would use those abilities they gave him to make him angry?

QuoteIn the Qur’an it’s stated that God showed Adam the names of ‘things’. It’s unclear what these ‘things’ were. Some Islamic scholars suggest that He showed the best of mankind to Adam that would follow.
So God answered to the angels: Yes he can do evil deeds, but he can also do good things.

Why would he want him to do bad deeds?

QuoteSo up till now, Adam was created. He was given intellect, reason and an own will.
God told Adam and his wife that they are free to do whatever they want in the garden.
Except, eating from a certain tree. You all know the story and what happened next.
However this was not a bad thing, but this was an important step.
Eating from a tree that God forbade you, symbolizes mankind’s own will.
God was not angry or wrathful when that happened, that step was necessary, that is
the first time mankind used his own will.
After God told Adam that he would had to go to Earth to live there for a certain period, Adam was shocked. But God promised that He will guide him if he wants too and that there is nothing
to be afraid of.

I don't know how different the Koran version of the Genesis creation story is from the Bible's, because in the Bible, God was certainly angry at his creation's free will that he had given them.

Quote- So what does this life mean?

According to Islamic believe, mankind did not commit some evil sin and this world is not regarded as an punishment. But it is necessary for our development. Development?

Well, in the womb you are physically developed, this world is meant for the development of your soul. The Qur’an tells us that we will suffer and that we should embrace it, since suffering will shape our soul. It tells us to be patient during times of hardship, when all the odds are against you, man needs to control himself, without losing his mind.

Why couldn't God have made it so that we can develop without suffering?

QuoteGod’s spirit is in mankind we believe. Factors like Forgiving, Strong, Knowledge, Mercy, Love, Defender, Justice, Compassion, all of these factors within our soul come from a greater source, and that source is God.

What about people that don't believe in your god? Or any god at all?

QuoteAnd this life is meant for either growing that, or destroying that. You grow in these things by listening to your consciousness. The suffering, the evil in this world is meant for our development.

Some people are predisposed from birth to commit more "evil" than other people. What about people who don't have a conscious, or whose conscious tells them things that contradict the morals of the Koran? And, once again, why do we have to suffer to develop?

QuoteWe cannot appreciate good, without seeing evil.
We cannot appreciate love, without losing it.
We cannot experience ‘strongness’, without suffering.
We cannot appreciate justice, without seeing corruption.

Again, why is this so? Why couldn't God have made it so that we can appreciate these things without seeing the opposite?

QuoteThe Qur’an tells us from time to time: ‘You are here to grow..’
So in short, according to Islamic believes. This world is meant for our development, we can either grow towards God, but we can also ignore Him and do the opposite.

So, according to your book, I can live a great life, filled with happiness and helping other people, and growth in intellect, reason, and love, but reject your God because I do not see why I should believe in him...and I would have learned nothing?

QuoteIn either way we believe that God will not send you to ‘hell’ but you will send yourself to ‘hell’  by destroying your soul

Bullshit. God made Hell, and he sends us to it.

Quote(doing things that you regard as ‘evil’ by your moral).

Wait...you believe in subjective morality?  :secret:[/quote]
What's wrong? He seems like a nice guy.

Quote from: "iSok"I think evil is everything which goes against God's spirit in us.
What exactly that spirit means and what it is composed from, is stated in the Qur'an, through out it's verses.

You've gotten ahead of yourself.  You've not established the existence of God, or any deity for that matter.  You need to establish that a deity exists before you start making claims of what he, she, or is is doing.

You are probably frustrated about the 99 names?

please say so, what is in your heart
Even if that means insulting, comments like that won't solve anything.


Like I said, it's a speculation. You may not like it
But please, lets be open minded, even if that means that you think I've lost it.

Here's the link:
http://allahmiracles.sitesled.com/miracles/handsa123.jpg

Quote from: "iSok"You are probably frustrated about the 99 names?

please say so, what is in your heart
Even if that means insulting, comments like that won't solve anything.


Like I said, it's a speculation. You may not like it
But please, lets be open minded, even if that means that you think I've lost it.

Here's the link:
http://allahmiracles.sitesled.com/miracles/handsa123.jpg

We aren't frustrated. We're just asking for evidence to back up your assertions.

When you say this is just speculation, do you mean that you have no proof for anything you say and you're just pulling it out of your ass?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Tank"I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.
I must be civil.

What's wrong? He seems like a nice guy.

I think I'll watch from the sidelines for the time being.

Quote from: "iSok"But please, lets be open minded, even if that means that you think I've lost it.

What will you do if you find your world view is wrong?

Good question. If God already made angels, beings who would follow his every command unquestioningly, then why would it be bad for humans to be like such? Why did he even want to make humans in the first place?
Because some of us can be better than angels, because of our free will in this life.
We can choose ourselves for the good instead of God commanding us.
I think God needs to create, this question is indeed hard to answer.


Why, if they would use those abilities they gave him to make him angry?
He can also use those abilities to do good, two side of the coin.



Why would he want him to do bad deeds?
God does not force anyone to do bad deeds, we do bad deeds because of our own will.




I don't know how different the Koran version of the Genesis creation story is from the Bible's, because in the Bible, God was certainly angry at his creation's free will that he had given them.
In the Qur’an he wasn’t.




Some people are predisposed from birth to commit more "evil" than other people. What about people who don't have a conscious, or whose conscious tells them things that contradict the morals of the Koran? And, once again, why do we have to suffer to develop?
All of it will be taken into consideration, some may suffer from mental illness, they are not accountable.


Again, why is this so? Why couldn't God have made it so that we can appreciate these things without seeing the opposite?
Because then everyone would be programmed like robots. Now it’s our choice.
That’s the most important thing. Have you ever heard of a computer than can reason?


So, according to your book, I can live a great life, filled with happiness and helping other people, and growth in intellect, reason, and love, but reject your God because I do not see why I should believe in him...and I would have learned nothing?

No one knows how God will judge, he didn’t send down a book on how to weight things.
Yes there will be people who never got the message, that all will be taken into consideration.
It’s not ‘believe and do whatever you want’.


Bullshit. God made Hell, and he sends us to it.
Believing in God, means also believing in his morals  (the 99 aspects for example).
Do not believe (neglect those morals), yes you will destroy yourself.
I'll look up a verse from the Qur'an.
basically: 'Good comes from God, Evil from men'



...Why is Psalms regarded as a separate book? It's part of the Old Testament of the Bible.

Torah â€" Moses
Psalms â€" David
The New testament â€" Jezus Christ
Qur’an â€" Final prophet


Finally

The proof to God is the divine origin of the Qur’an.
I can proof it’s divine origin.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "iSok"But please, lets be open minded, even if that means that you think I've lost it.

What will you do if you find your world view is wrong?

I will probably never find that out.
But if I did, I'd probably live according to the same values as I do now.
I have nothing to lose.

What will you do if you die and it turns out that there is an afterlife?

Quote from: "iSok"Good question. If God already made angels, beings who would follow his every command unquestioningly, then why would it be bad for humans to be like such? Why did he even want to make humans in the first place?
Because some of us can be better than angels, because of our free will in this life.
We can choose ourselves for the good instead of God commanding us.
I think God needs to create, this question is indeed hard to answer.

Why can't we be better than angels and never sin? Why can't free will and the ability to never sin exist at the same time? Why is free will even a good thing?

God is omnipotent. He can do anything. He can make anything.

QuoteWhy, if they would use those abilities they gave him to make him angry?
He can also use those abilities to do good, two side of the coin.

Yes, but why must there be two sides?

QuoteI will probably never find that out.
But if I did, I'd probably live according to the same values as I do now.
I have nothing to lose.

What will you do if you die and it turns out that there is an afterlife?

Well, you can find it out with reasonable certainty.
It depends on which version of the afterlife you mean.

QuoteWhy would he want him to do bad deeds?
God does not force anyone to do bad deeds, we do bad deeds because of our own will.

Why does he let us, in other words?

QuoteI don't know how different the Koran version of the Genesis creation story is from the Bible's, because in the Bible, God was certainly angry at his creation's free will that he had given them.
In the Qur’an he wasn’t.

So, he didn't curse us and take away snakes' legs or anything?

QuoteSome people are predisposed from birth to commit more "evil" than other people. What about people who don't have a conscious, or whose conscious tells them things that contradict the morals of the Koran? And, once again, why do we have to suffer to develop?
All of it will be taken into consideration, some may suffer from mental illness, they are not accountable.

Fair enough -- but you still believe that belief in God/Allah is the most sure-fire way to get into Heaven, don't you?

QuoteAgain, why is this so? Why couldn't God have made it so that we can appreciate these things without seeing the opposite?
Because then everyone would be programmed like robots. Now it’s our choice.
That’s the most important thing. Have you ever heard of a computer than can reason?

Why is it bad to be programmed like robots, like the angels? God can make a computer that can reason, can't he? He's omnipotent and all.

QuoteSo, according to your book, I can live a great life, filled with happiness and helping other people, and growth in intellect, reason, and love, but reject your God because I do not see why I should believe in him...and I would have learned nothing?

No one knows how God will judge, he didn’t send down a book on how to weight things.
Yes there will be people who never got the message, that all will be taken into consideration.
It’s not ‘believe and do whatever you want’.

Fair enough.

QuoteBullshit. God made Hell, and he sends us to it.
Believing in God, means also believing in his morals  (the 99 aspects for example).
Do not believe (neglect those morals), yes you will destroy yourself.
I'll look up a verse from the Qur'an.
basically: 'Good comes from God, Evil from men'

He's still the one sending you to Hell.

Quote...Why is Psalms regarded as a separate book? It's part of the Old Testament of the Bible.

Torah â€" Moses
Psalms â€" David
The New testament â€" Jezus Christ
Qur’an â€" Final prophet

The New Testament wasn't written by Jesus, and the Torah wasn't written by Moses, but okay.

QuoteFinally

The proof to God is the divine origin of the Qur’an.
I can proof it’s divine origin.

That's the proof I'm asking for.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "iSok"But please, lets be open minded, even if that means that you think I've lost it.

What will you do if you find your world view is wrong?

I will probably never find that out.
But if I did, I'd probably live according to the same values as I do now.
I have nothing to lose.

Fair enough.

Quote from: "iSok"What will you do if you die and it turns out that there is an afterlife?

Seriously? I'd ask Allah to explain why he's such an arsehole. I really would. He has fucked this world over and everybody on it since its creation, apparently for his own amusement.

The New Testament wasn't written by Jesus, and the Torah wasn't written by Moses, but okay.

Inspiration by their sayings.

He's still the one sending you to Hell.
Maybe if you don’t develop lungs in the womb you can’t breath here.
And if you don’t develop a certain amount of ‘goodness’. Maybe you can’t exist(breath) in heaven and hell is your place?



Fair enough -- but you still believe that belief in God/Allah is the most sure-fire way to get into Heaven, don't you?

Lifetime guarantee, that it’s the best way.
Believing means also, believing in God's morals.
I wish I had a free ticket, but I don't have.


Well, you can find it out with reasonable certainty.
It depends on which version of the afterlife you mean.

I mean the really ugly one


Why can't we be better than angels and never sin? Why can't free will and the ability to never sin exist at the same time? Why is free will even a good thing?

God is omnipotent. He can do anything. He can make anything.

Like I said before, because of our free will we will be individuals.
Believing in something which we are not commanded to, just asked too.

He’s already creating you, isn’t he? Experiencing this life is part of creation.
This life is the final stage for creation. It’s that you experience it slow.

Quote from: "iSok"You are probably frustrated about the 99 names?

please say so, what is in your heart
Even if that means insulting, comments like that won't solve anything.


Like I said, it's a speculation. You may not like it
But please, lets be open minded, even if that means that you think I've lost it.

Here's the link:
http://allahmiracles.sitesled.com/miracles/handsa123.jpg

I don't care how many names he has.  That is completely irrelevant to whether or not your deity exists.  Giving something a name doesn't mean it actually exists - fictional and mythical creatures with names abound.  Until you prove your deity exists, telling us how many names he has is just smoke and mirrors.

Well, like I said before.

I would start after the basic introdution.

A question I have.

- Did you ever read the Qur'an?

I've read a little bit of it.  However, I found it turgid and boring.  I keep telling myself I'll try it again, but it's hard to force myself to read something that dull.

Quote from: "Velma"I've read a little bit of it.  However, I found it turgid and boring.  I keep telling myself I'll try it again, but it's hard to force myself to read something that dull.

This is the best translation of the original Qur'an. -->http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php
Well, let me say this, if you read it sincere.
And you start with the intention: 'There's a possibility there's a truth here' and you ask sincere for guideness.
The Qur'an will crumble down every doubt you have, it's not blind faith.

Before I start with proving it's divine origin, some verses from the Qur'an I found inspiring.


“What We recite to you consists of signs and wise admonition.” [Qur’an 3:58]

“Did you imagine that We created you without any purpose, and that you will not be brought back to Us?" [Qur’an 23:115]

“Do they not reflect on themselves? Allah created the heavens and the earth and whatever lies between them in Truth and for an appointed term. Yet many people deny that they will meet their Lord.” [Qur’an 30:8]

“Soon shall We show them Our Signs on the horizons and in their own beings until it becomes clear to them that it is the Truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is a witness over everything?” [Qur’an 41:53]

“Human beings, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the most God-fearing of you. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.” [Qur’an 49:13]


Basically the Qur'an now and then speaks  of signs.
It continuosly  asks us to reason, to think, and to see some of it signs.

Furthermore the Qur'an is timeless. Some of it's verses we do not understand
and do not know what they mean. We didn't understand some verses a while back
but now we do.

I'll give an example of it soon.

Quote from: "Tank"I think I'll watch from the sidelines for the time being.

4 minutes later

QuoteWhat will you do if you find your world view is wrong?

*laffin*

Quote from: "Gawen"

Quote from: "Tank"I think I'll watch from the sidelines for the time being.

4 minutes later

QuoteWhat will you do if you find your world view is wrong?

*laffin*

I lasted 4 minutes! A whole 4 minutes!

Quote from: "iSok"This is the best translation of the original Qur'an.

You need to read the King James version of the Koran. All other translations were written by Satan.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Velma"I've read a little bit of it.  However, I found it turgid and boring.  I keep telling myself I'll try it again, but it's hard to force myself to read something that dull.

This is the best translation of the original Qur'an. -->http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php
Well, let me say this, if you read it sincere.
And you start with the intention: 'There's a possibility there's a truth here' and you ask sincere for guideness.
The Qur'an will crumble down every doubt you have, it's not blind faith.

Before I start with proving it's divine origin, some verses from the Qur'an I found inspiring.


“What We recite to you consists of signs and wise admonition.” [Qur’an 3:58]

“Did you imagine that We created you without any purpose, and that you will not be brought back to Us?" [Qur’an 23:115]

“Do they not reflect on themselves? Allah created the heavens and the earth and whatever lies between them in Truth and for an appointed term. Yet many people deny that they will meet their Lord.” [Qur’an 30:8]

“Soon shall We show them Our Signs on the horizons and in their own beings until it becomes clear to them that it is the Truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is a witness over everything?” [Qur’an 41:53]

“Human beings, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the most God-fearing of you. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.” [Qur’an 49:13]


Basically the Qur'an now and then speaks  of signs.
It continuosly  asks us to reason, to think, and to see some of it signs.

Furthermore the Qur'an is timeless. Some of it's verses we do not understand
and do not know what they mean. We didn't understand some verses a while back
but now we do.

I'll give an example of it soon.

I've read the Bible, and I didn't find it the inspired Word of God. Far from it, actually. I doubt that the Koran will be different -- especially from what I've heard of it already. One of these days, I might take the time to actually go read it on Skeptic's Annotated Notes, though.

Seriously though, my understanding is that there can be no "best" translation of the Koran, because all translations are a corruption of the true Koran. The Koran can only be truly read in the original Arabic, which could be a bit of a problem because the Arabic in which the Koran is written is so archaic that somewhere around 10% of the book can no longer be read by modern readers of the Koran. Even scholars are just guessing at original meanings by working from the context. Ancient Arabic writing used NO vowels.
What's wrong with this translation?
http://al-quran.info/default.aspx?x=y#& ... i&ver=2.00 (http://al-quran.info/default.aspx?x=y#&&sura=1&aya=1&trans=en-yusuf_ali&show=both,quran-uthmani&ver=2.00)
Or this one?
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/index.php (http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/index.php)
What's wrong with the Pickthal and Shakir translations?
How about these 33 translations?
http://islamawakened.org/Quran/ (http://islamawakened.org/Quran/)

At any rate, I've tried that route. After reading a few Suras I'll wager ones reaction will be, "How can anyone believe this crap?" It sounds impossible, but the Koran is even more boring, tedious and uninspiring than the Bible.

Quote from: "Gawen"At any rate, I've tried that route. After reading a few Suras I'll wager ones reaction will be, "How can anyone believe this crap?" It sounds impossible, but the Koran is even more boring, tedious and uninspiring than the Bible.

...Oh God. Seriously?

Quote from: "Gawen"

Quote from: "iSok"This is the best translation of the original Qur'an.

You need to read the King James version of the Koran. All other translations were written by Satan.

By Dr. Laura Vaglieri

The Miracle of Islam par excellence is the Quran, through which a constant and unbroken tradition transmits to us news of an absolute certainty. This is a book which cannot be imitated. Each of its expressions is a comprehensive one, and yet it is of proper size, neither too long nor too short. Its style is original. There is no model for this style in Arab literature of the times preceding it. The effect which it produces on the human soul is obtained without any adventitious aid through its own inherent excellences. The verses are equally eloquent all through the text, even when they deal with topics, such as commandments and prohibitions, which must necessarily affect its tone. Stories of Prophets, descriptions of the beginning and the end of the world, enumerations and expositions of the divine attributes are repeated but repeated in a way which is so impressive that they do not weaken the effect. The text proceeds from one topic to another without losing its power. Depth and sweetness, qualities which generally do not go together, are found together here, where each rhetoric figure finds a perfect application. . . . We find there vast stores of knowledge which are beyond the capacity of the most intelligent of men, the greatest of philosophers and the ablest of politicians.

By F.F. Arbuthnot

From a literary point of view, the Korân is regarded as a specimen of the purest Arabic, written in half poetry and half prose. It has been said that in some cases grammarians have adapted their rules to agree with certain phrases and expressions used in it, and that, though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none have as yet succeeded.
It will thus be seen, from the above, that a final and complete text of the Korân was prepared within twenty years after the death (A.D. 632) of Muhammad, and that this has remained the same, without any change or alteration by enthusiasts, translators, or interpolators, up to the present time. It is to be regretted that the same cannot be said of all the books of the Old and New Testaments.



Hence, any translation comes not even near the original.
There are many translations available, the one I linked, is widely regarded as one of the best.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Velma"I've read a little bit of it.  However, I found it turgid and boring.  I keep telling myself I'll try it again, but it's hard to force myself to read something that dull.

This is the best translation of the original Qur'an. -->http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php
Well, let me say this, if you read it sincere.
And you start with the intention: 'There's a possibility there's a truth here' and you ask sincere for guideness.
The Qur'an will crumble down every doubt you have, it's not blind faith.

Before I start with proving it's divine origin, some verses from the Qur'an I found inspiring.


“What We recite to you consists of signs and wise admonition.” [Qur’an 3:58]

“Did you imagine that We created you without any purpose, and that you will not be brought back to Us?" [Qur’an 23:115]

“Do they not reflect on themselves? Allah created the heavens and the earth and whatever lies between them in Truth and for an appointed term. Yet many people deny that they will meet their Lord.” [Qur’an 30:8]

“Soon shall We show them Our Signs on the horizons and in their own beings until it becomes clear to them that it is the Truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is a witness over everything?” [Qur’an 41:53]

“Human beings, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the most God-fearing of you. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.” [Qur’an 49:13]


Basically the Qur'an now and then speaks  of signs.
It continuosly  asks us to reason, to think, and to see some of it signs.

Furthermore the Qur'an is timeless. Some of it's verses we do not understand
and do not know what they mean. We didn't understand some verses a while back
but now we do.

I'll give an example of it soon.

Even if your holy book holds examples of some of finest literature ever written and makes me laugh or cry, that proves nothing.  Words on a page have moved people to feel all sorts of emotions.  Before you repeat your assertions that your holy book is written or inspired by a deity, you need to prove that deity exists.

I hope you have a bit of knowledge of physics, otherwise I'm willing to explain.


"By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."[Qur'an 70:4]

Angels are made of light.

The lorentz transformations, I hope you understand a bit of physics.

t’ = (1-v2/c2)-1/2 (t-vx/c2)

where  v = speed traveled
c = the speed of light (5.88 x 1012 miles/year)
x = position in space (defined by the equation x2 = c2t2)
t’ and t (single day = 2.7397 x 10-3 years and 50.000 years)  are the two differing time perspectives.

Do you know what the answer will be for v (traveled speed by object) if you use those values for t' and t ?
yes indeed, the speed of light. Coincidence?

What that means is that two observers moving at different speeds will perceive time, size, and mass to be different. At speeds such as those traveled by humans in the present age, such differences are negligible.
Not when you travel at the speed of light.

The Prophet was actually illiterate, most people think he wrote the Qur'an.

[youtube:1pha2l6q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op0kJ0N0p0M[/youtube:1pha2l6q]
[youtube:1pha2l6q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHjH66gPhM4[/youtube:1pha2l6q]

This one is nice too.

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." [Qur'an 51:47]

The expansion of the universe, which we all agree upon.

(This is an example that no one understood when it was relevated, but now we do,hence the Qur'an is timeless)

Or this one..everything came from one point.

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" [Qur'an 21:30]

The big bang, when all matter that we know was in an infinite density (with other words NOTHING)

Quote from: "iSok"This one is nice too.

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." [Qur'an 51:47]

The expansion of the universe, which we all agree upon.

(This is an example that no one understood when it was relevated, but now we do,hence the Qur'an is timeless)

Or this one..everything came from one point.

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" [Qur'an 21:30]

The big bang, when all matter that we know was in an infinite density (with other words NOTHING)

Quote from: "HAF Rules"NO PREACHING: While everyone is welcome to discuss their views in a civil manner, this forum is not a podium for those that only wish to preach. This rule applies to atheists and theists alike.

Quote from: "iSok"First of all, thank you so much for all the warm welcomes.
I have to say, I didn’t expect this kindness.

Existentialist
The reason I came here is to discuss about the believe in God
from Islamic perspective. With discussing this, I will give proof for the existence of God.
Yes it may be shocking that I think that there is proof, and you may think that I am deluted, but please bear with me till I have posted it.
I hope you can let me do that, it is for us individually to determine whether that proof is consistent.
I will post these points in my upcoming replies.

About the Islamic music, I understand you don’t mean culture-related, but rather religious ‘music’.
We don’t really call it music, but it is indeed mesmerising. I can give you a link to youtube, which is in my opinion is the most beautiful call to prayer I’ve heard so far (the adhan/azan).
Here’s the link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAvlimEYEpQ   - I hope you’ll enjoy it.
The translation is included in the video description in case you are interested.

The second link: http://www.mounthira.com/index.php?a=downloads
On the page, download in audio section ‘Ayatul kursi’, A beautiful recitation.
It’s a verse from the Qur’an, which muslims regard as the most important.
In times of hardship muslims recite this verse to strengthen the soul.
If you do need more, please say so.

Thanks iSok for your links which were very useful.  I think the aesthetics of islam probably cannot be divorced from its teachings without losing a lot of the meaning.  I may be wrong but I would imagine that the Koran is a little bit like the works of Shakespeare: not written to be read, instead put into written form so that it could be performed, then passed on by rote - in pre-printing times.  So much is lost when it becomes dark type on a light background.  Also I would think that I as an atheist find the links aesthetically pleasing for not understanding the words.  An english chant of the same words would probably be offputting because it would take the mystery out of the words.  It's interesting that the call to prayer you linked me to sounds very authentic to begin with, but seems to move towards westernised instrumentals towards the end.

Thanks again for the links.  I hope you get something out of exchanging thoughts with people here.

You can quote from your holy book all you want.  However, until you have established that your god exists and that your holy book was written by that god, quoting from it is pointless.  Oh, and you cannot use the quran to prove the quran.

I'm still waiting for proof of its divine origin.

Remember -- extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I don't really understand, I'm really sorry, but I'll try to explain.

I give proof by quoting Quranic verses that explain the matter of universe.
And what do I get as a reply?


- Don't preach
- Two video replies about another subject, it's like talking about apples and then you jump to oranges..


First I promised that I would proof that the Qur'an can't be written by a mere man, so I quote the Qur'an.
By showing certain verses which cannot be written by a man.
So now I have to proof that the Qur'an is divine without using the content of the Qur'an, doesn't that sound strange to anyone?

It's like 'tell me how good this movie is, without seeing the movie' ...is that common sense?

Just because you don't understand something, does that mean that it doesn't exist?

'I don't understand evil, therefore God does not exist.'

'I don't understand the theory of relativity, therefore it can't exist'

I showed 3 verses, which are all three right (if you not react or discuss them)...and yet some reply with the most vaque sentence


'I'm still waiting for proof of its divine origin.

Remember -- extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.'

Is that from Spiderman? Ben Parker: 'Remember (Peter) Great power requires great responsibility'

I really am confused...
It's almost midnight here, so I am kind off tired.
Do read my posts again, to understand what I mean.

Quote from: "iSok"I don't really understand, I'm really sorry, but I'll try to explain.

I give proof by quoting Quranic verses that explain the matter of universe.
And what do I get as a reply?


- Don't preach

Simply quoting passages from your book that, with a little interpreting, sound like very simplistic statements of the universe that we now because of modern science is not compelling enough evidence. The Koran is about the same size as the Bible, yes? With all that text, I'd expect there'd be some coincidences like that.

Quote- Two video replies about another subject, it's like talking about apples and then you jump to oranges..

Earlier we were talking about evil and morals and stuff, or at least I was. I saw the videos on Youtube, and thought they were relevant.

QuoteFirst I promised that I would proof that the Qur'an can't be written by a mere man, so I quote the Qur'an.
By showing certain verses which cannot be written by a man.

How couldn't they be written by man?

QuoteSo now I have to proof that the Qur'an is divine without using the content of the Qur'an, doesn't that sound strange to anyone?

It's like 'tell me how good this movie is, without seeing the movie' ...is that common sense?

It's actually more like "The contents of this movie are true, because of the movie".

QuoteI showed 3 verses, which are all three right...and yet some reply with the most vaque sentence

See above.

QuoteSimply quoting passages from your book that, with a little interpreting, sound like very simplistic statements of the universe that we now because of modern science is not compelling enough evidence. The Koran is about the same size as the Bible, yes? With all that text, I'd expect there'd be some coincidences like that.

I was not finished, before I began some accused me of preaching, and not replying or discussing.

QuoteEarlier we were talking about evil and morals and stuff, or at least I was. I saw the videos on Youtube, and thought they were relevant.

The videos were of 0 content, like I said. Please show better arguments of authority. In a debate
it's better to stay on the subject, instead of jumping to subjects which already came by.

QuoteHow couldn't they be written by man?

You'll see soon if you let me.

QuoteIt's actually more like "The contents of this movie are true, because of the movie".

No that's not true, I have to discuss parts of the movie which are brilliant without watching the movie.
'This director was so brilliant but I didn't see his movie, he just is brilliant.

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteEarlier we were talking about evil and morals and stuff, or at least I was. I saw the videos on Youtube, and thought they were relevant.

The videos were of 0 content, like I said.

They first one pointed out why a loving, omnipotent, omniscient creator couldn't have created the Earth, and the second one points out that it'd be better to believe in a son god than the Judeo-Christian God.

QuoteNo that's not true, I have to discuss parts of the movie which are brilliant without watching the movie.
'This director was so brilliant but I didn't see his movie, he just is brilliant.

You can say the Koran is brilliant, but you can't point to its claims and say they're true because of the book that they're in. You can say that it's true because it has predicted future events, which so far you have failed to convince me of.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteEarlier we were talking about evil and morals and stuff, or at least I was. I saw the videos on Youtube, and thought they were relevant.

The videos were of 0 content, like I said.

They first one pointed out why a loving, omnipotent, omniscient creator couldn't have created the Earth, and the second one points out that it'd be better to believe in a son god than the Judeo-Christian God.

QuoteNo that's not true, I have to discuss parts of the movie which are brilliant without watching the movie.
'This director was so brilliant but I didn't see his movie, he just is brilliant.

You can say the Koran is brilliant, but you can't point to its claims and say they're true because of the book that they're in. You can say that it's true because it has predicted future events, which so far you have failed to convince me of.

Why not just enjoy the Koran as a work of fiction?  We all know there's no God and that the content of the Koran isn't true.  I just wonder if it's a bit pointless trying to persuade a muslim who thinks the book is brilliant that its claims aren't true.  What's the worst consequence of letting someone hold the view that something is true while not obtaining the proof that it is?  It's still a good book - or at least as good as the person who reads it out or chants it, and such things are a matter of opinion anyway.

Quote from: "Existentialist"Why not just enjoy the Koran as a work of fiction?  We all know there's no God and that the content of the Koran isn't true.  I just wonder if it's a bit pointless trying to persuade a muslim who thinks the book is brilliant that its claims aren't true.  What's the worst consequence of letting someone hold the view that something is true while not obtaining the proof that it is?  It's still a good book - or at least as good as the person who reads it out or chants it, and such things are a matter of opinion anyway.

It's called a debate for a reason.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Existentialist"Why not just enjoy the Koran as a work of fiction?  We all know there's no God and that the content of the Koran isn't true.  I just wonder if it's a bit pointless trying to persuade a muslim who thinks the book is brilliant that its claims aren't true.  What's the worst consequence of letting someone hold the view that something is true while not obtaining the proof that it is?  It's still a good book - or at least as good as the person who reads it out or chants it, and such things are a matter of opinion anyway.

It's called a debate for a reason.

Thanks for the reply LS.  What's the reason?

Quote from: "Definition of the Word "Debate""argue with one another; "We debated the question of abortion"; "John debated Mary"

That's the reason we call it a debate.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Definition of the Word "Debate""argue with one another; "We debated the question of abortion"; "John debated Mary"

That's the reason we call it a debate.

Ok that's fairly circular so I'll leave you on that carousel, but is your aim to get a muslim to say that there is no proof that the Koran is true?  Just wondering where we're going with this.

Quote from: "Existentialist"Why not just enjoy the Koran as a work of fiction?  We all know there's no God and that the content of the Koran isn't true.  I just wonder if it's a bit pointless trying to persuade a muslim who thinks the book is brilliant that its claims aren't true.  What's the worst consequence of letting someone hold the view that something is true while not obtaining the proof that it is?  It's still a good book - or at least as good as the person who reads it out or chants it, and such things are a matter of opinion anyway.

Two words for you:  Saudi Arabia

Ok, the next argument.
An argument of authority.


In the Qur'an the development of the human embryo is described.
Scientists around the world, specialised in human embryology were gathered
to speculate about this. Check the link.
And read what they have to say about this.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html

Quote from: "Velma"

Quote from: "Existentialist"Why not just enjoy the Koran as a work of fiction?  We all know there's no God and that the content of the Koran isn't true.  I just wonder if it's a bit pointless trying to persuade a muslim who thinks the book is brilliant that its claims aren't true.  What's the worst consequence of letting someone hold the view that something is true while not obtaining the proof that it is?  It's still a good book - or at least as good as the person who reads it out or chants it, and such things are a matter of opinion anyway.

Two words for you:  Saudi Arabia

Come on, Saudi Arabia is a client state of the US.  That's no way to treat our friends!

Quote from: "iSok"Ok, the next argument.
An argument of authority.


In the Qur'an the development of the human embryo is described.
Scientists around the world, specialised in human embryology were gathered
to speculate about this. Check the link.
And read what they have to say about this.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html

...You do realize that arguments from authority are logical fallacies, right? Why would you even describe your argument as such?

@ Existential: How is it circular? The definition of the word debate is to argue with someone; I am arguing with someone; therefore, it is a debate.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Gawen"At any rate, I've tried that route. After reading a few Suras I'll wager ones reaction will be, "How can anyone believe this crap?" It sounds impossible, but the Koran is even more boring, tedious and uninspiring than the Bible.

...Oh God. Seriously?

Seriously.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "iSok"Ok, the next argument.
An argument of authority.


In the Qur'an the development of the human embryo is described.
Scientists around the world, specialised in human embryology were gathered
to speculate about this. Check the link.
And read what they have to say about this.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html

...You do realize that arguments from authority are logical fallacies, right? Why would you even describe your argument as such?

@ Existential: How is it circular? The definition of the word debate is to argue with someone; I am arguing with someone; therefore, it is a debate.

What am I doing?

Proving the divine origin of the Qur'an.

How do I do that?

By showing content of the Qur'an that was unknown to man 1400 years ago

How do I proof that, that that content is true?

By quoting world renewed scientist, scientist who are probably the top on Human Embrology.

So what do they conclude?

Man couldn't know that, since we know this barely 50 years.
 So some of them started believing in a God.

These are basic values of a debate...
I don't show youtube video's of people randomy talking, and one of them being a religion hater.
Adding nothing to the debate.

Quote from: "iSok"Ok, the next argument.
An argument of authority.

In the Qur'an the development of the human embryo is described.
Scientists around the world, specialised in human embryology were gathered
to speculate about this. Check the link.
And read what they have to say about this.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html

Hi iSok.  Thanks for the post and thanks once again for the links earlier to the call to prayer.  The development of the human embryo can easily be observed.  Since the evolution of man about a million years ago, there have been enough generations of curious people, albeit of different levels of competency, to carry out autopsies of people at various stages of pregnancy.  I don't really see that this is divine insight, although I don't mean to devalue the metaphorical or sense of divine insight that might be gained from reading the quran.

Quote from: "Gawen"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Gawen"At any rate, I've tried that route. After reading a few Suras I'll wager ones reaction will be, "How can anyone believe this crap?" It sounds impossible, but the Koran is even more boring, tedious and uninspiring than the Bible.

...Oh God. Seriously?

Seriously.

That was my reaction, Gawen.  I suppose I could force myself to read it, but there are so many other things to read that are worth reading.

Quote from: "Existentialist"I don't really see that this is divine insight, although I don't mean to devalue the metaphorical or sense of divine insight that might be gained from reading the quran.

Stop being so...civil.  

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "iSok"Ok, the next argument.
An argument of authority.


In the Qur'an the development of the human embryo is described.
Scientists around the world, specialised in human embryology were gathered
to speculate about this. Check the link.
And read what they have to say about this.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html

...You do realize that arguments from authority are logical fallacies, right? Why would you even describe your argument as such?

@ Existential: How is it circular? The definition of the word debate is to argue with someone; I am arguing with someone; therefore, it is a debate.

What am I doing?

Proving the divine origin of the Qur'an.

How do I do that?

By showing content of the Qur'an that was unknown to man 1400 years ago

How do I proof that, that that content is true?

By quoting world renewed scientist, scientist who are probably the top on Human Embrology.

So what do they conclude?

Man couldn't know that, since we know this barely 50 years.
 So some of them started believing in a God.

These are basic values of a debate...
I don't show youtube video's of people randomy talking, and one of them being a religion hater.
Adding nothing to the debate.

Are you really going to keep bringing up the videos I posted?

Also, are you not going to address the logical fallacy problem I pointed out?

Also also, like Existentialist said, this is not proof of divine origin.

Quote from: "Existentialist"

Quote from: "iSok"Ok, the next argument.
An argument of authority.

In the Qur'an the development of the human embryo is described.
Scientists around the world, specialised in human embryology were gathered
to speculate about this. Check the link.
And read what they have to say about this.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/scientists.html

Hi iSok.  Thanks for the post and thanks once again for the links earlier to the call to prayer.  The development of the human embryo can easily be observed.  Since the evolution of man about a million years ago, there have been enough generations of curious people, albeit of different levels of competency, to carry out autopsies of people at various stages of pregnancy.  I don't really see that this is divine insight, although I don't mean to devalue the metaphorical or sense of divine insight that might be gained from reading the quran.

Also on a molecular level?
When you need a electron microscope? (invented in 1931)

That's what they talk about (if you have read it)
So it couldn't be known back then.

Specifically in which scriptures are the development of the human embryo described?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"@ Existential: How is it circular?

I asked you what the reason was for pressing a muslim to say there are no proofs of the truth of the quran.  You said 'it's called' debate for a reason, I asked for the reason, you said the reason was to fulfil the definition of the word debate.  

Really I meant what's the reason for trying to get a muslim to say there are no proofs.  

Having said that I'm not of the view that the quran contains any scientific information.  That doesn't stop it being a good book.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Specifically in which scriptures are the development of the human embryo described?

Oh I can answer that.  None of them.  Really, LegendarySandwich you're completely missing the metaphorical point of all this!

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Existentialist"I don't really see that this is divine insight, although I don't mean to devalue the metaphorical or sense of divine insight that might be gained from reading the quran.

Stop being so...civil.  

Sorry

Quote from: "Existentialist"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"@ Existential: How is it circular?

I asked you what the reason was for pressing a muslim to say there are no proofs of the truth of the quran.  You said 'it's called' debate for a reason, I asked for the reason, you said the reason was to fulfil the definition of the word debate.  

Really I meant what's the reason for trying to get a muslim to say there are no proofs.

Because we're debating.

QuoteHaving said that I'm not of the view that the quran contains any scientific information.  That doesn't stop it being a good book.

Define "good".

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Define "good".

aesthetic

is this a debate about Islam?

Or a debate about what defines a debate?


Ls. your question about in what religious scripture that (embryology) is stated...well it is in the Qur'an (The scripture we have been talking about for hours..and hours)
You call yourself already an atheist, while you don't even know the most basic answers to religion.....

So far..in this almost 75 posts large topic, the only two objections I found against the existence of God.

- Lack of proof  --> I'm giving proof, but all the proof I give..people do not seem to read, or is it just me? All the proof I give is either coincidence or dumb interpretation.
  Are we really open minded here?

- Problem of evil   --> (I explained evil)  --> no one questioned it?

Ls, how can you reasonably follow a debate, if you don't have a clue about the Qur'an....you talk about 'scriptures?'

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that so many of you closed all doors and convinced themselves that there is No God.
No one here has ever read the Qur'an... (Islam, second largest religion in the world)...but you call yourself atheists....I thought atheists were convinced by
evaluating every religion. To me it sounds more and more a hype from what I have seen here.


Or am I wrong?

I mean which scripture specifically, not the book it's in.

Quote from: "iSok"is this a debate about Islam?

Or a debate about what defines a debate?

Islam is the main debate, what defines a debate was a secondary debate that was sparked off by the main one.  

Quote from: "iSok"Ls. your question about in what religious scripture that (embryology) is stated...well it is in the Qur'an (The scripture we have been talking about for hours..and hours)
You call yourself already an atheist, while you don't even know the most basic answers to religion.....

Can I ask why an atheist needs to know anything about religion?

Quote from: "iSok"So far..in this almost 75 posts large topic, the only two objections I found against the existence of God.

- Lack of proof  --> I'm giving proof, but all the proof I give..people do not seem to read, or is it just me?
- Problem of evil   --> (I explained evil)  --> no one questioned it?

I hope you don't mind if I put forward a third.  That despite all the proof you're putting forward, someone else holds a different position on the existence of God.  We shouldn't really need proof either way, if you think that what you believe is important, proof has no impact.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I mean which scripture specifically, not the book it's in.

I can answer that.  It's not in any scripture.

Quote from: "iSok"- Lack of proof  --> I'm giving proof, but all the proof I give..people do not seem to read, or is it just me? All the proof I give is either coincidence or dumb interpretation.
  Are we really open minded here?

Emphasis my own.

Quote- Problem of evil   --> (I explained evil)  --> no one questioned it?

QuoteThe New Testament wasn't written by Jesus, and the Torah wasn't written by Moses, but okay.

Inspiration by their sayings.

He's still the one sending you to Hell.
Maybe if you don’t develop lungs in the womb you can’t breath here.
And if you don’t develop a certain amount of ‘goodness’. Maybe you can’t exist(breath) in heaven and hell is your place?

And who made it that way?

QuoteFair enough -- but you still believe that belief in God/Allah is the most sure-fire way to get into Heaven, don't you?

Lifetime guarantee, that it’s the best way.
Believing means also, believing in God's morals.
I wish I had a free ticket, but I don't have.

So, you simply have to believe in some morals?

QuoteWell, you can find it out with reasonable certainty.
It depends on which version of the afterlife you mean.

I mean the really ugly one

Which really ugly one?

QuoteLike I said before, because of our free will we will be individuals.

Why is it good to have free will? Why is it good to be an individual?

QuoteBelieving in something which we are not commanded to, just asked too.

And if we politely respond "no, thank you", we will go to Hell.

QuoteHe’s already creating you, isn’t he? Experiencing this life is part of creation.
This life is the final stage for creation. It’s that you experience it slow.

...What.

QuoteLs, how can you reasonably follow a debate, if you don't have a clue about the Qur'an....you talk about 'scriptures?'

Like I said before, I've never read the Koran. Passages? Verses? What specific text of the Koran describes how embryos mature?

QuoteMaybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that so many of you closed all doors and convinced themselves that there is No God.

A lot of us here do believe that there is no God -- no Judeo-Christian god, that is.

QuoteNo one here has ever read the Qur'an... (Islam, second largest religion in the world)...but you call yourself atheists....I thought atheists were convinced by
evaluating every religion. To me it sounds more and more a hype from what I have seen here.


Or am I wrong?

All three Abrahamic religions have the same basic core concept. I don't spend my time reading all the world's religious scripture. Give me a reason to read your specific holy book, and I will.

Quote from: "Existentialist"I hope you don't mind if I put forward a third.  That despite all the proof you're putting forward, someone else holds a different position on the existence of God.  We shouldn't really need proof either way, if you think that what you believe is important, proof has no impact.

...

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Existentialist"I hope you don't mind if I put forward a third.  That despite all the proof you're putting forward, someone else holds a different position on the existence of God.  We shouldn't really need proof either way, if you think that what you believe is important, proof has no impact.

...

You seem to be scratching your head, LS.  Why?

QuoteCan I ask why an atheist needs to know anything about religion?

Please Existent, you are not seriously meaning this.....this just shows how you decided to be an atheist....
May I ask your personal story, were you raised as an Atheist? or Religious? you can PM it.

QuoteI hope you don't mind if I put forward a third.  That despite all the proof you're putting forward, someone else holds a different position on the existence of God.  We shouldn't really need proof either way, if you think that what you believe is important, proof has no impact.

well, why do I think that there's a God?

- Well I don't need proof of the type I showed here.


-  It is whenever I pray, I am off this world.
   It's a certain spiritual feeling, I can't describe it, something you need to experience.

- Or when you read the Quran, every doubt in my heart is destroyed., it's almost if the Qur'an commands you to think
  and reflect.

- I used to care about materialistic objects, they are nice but not essential in life.
  There's a certain type of calmness in my heart, in my mind that I neither can't describe, this feeling is especially strong after prayer
  A feeling of peace.

- I can control myself far more than before(anger for example), my moral has grown in some way since I started practising.

- Not terrified of loss of loved ones in my life, the feeling that everything is going to be alright.

- I am more encouraged to achieve things in life and contribute things to society. I was lazy before, but now I try to use my time the best way possible.


Some of the things, why I think God exists.
And for people who do not have these feelings, there are many signs and proofs.
If you use your common sense and connect all the dots that will appear, you'll see the whole picture.

Atleast, that if you want God to exist.

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteCan I ask why an atheist needs to know anything about religion?

Please Existent, you are not seriously meaning this.....this just shows how you decided to be an atheist....
May I ask your personal story, were you raised as an Atheist? or Religious? you can PM it.

QuoteI hope you don't mind if I put forward a third.  That despite all the proof you're putting forward, someone else holds a different position on the existence of God.  We shouldn't really need proof either way, if you think that what you believe is important, proof has no impact.

well, why do I think that there's a God?

- Well I don't need proof of the type I showed here.


-  It is whenever I pray, I am off this world.
   It's a certain spiritual feeling, I can't describe it, something you need to experience.

- Or when you read the Quran, every doubt in my heart is destroyed., it's almost if the Qur'an commands you to think
  and reflect.

- I used to care about materialistic objects, they are nice but not essential in life.
  There's a certain type of calmness in my heart, in my mind that I neither can't describe, this feeling is especially strong after prayer
  A feeling of peace.

- I can control myself far more than before(anger for example), my moral has grown in some way since I started practising.

- Not terrified of loss of loved ones in my life, the feeling that everything is going to be alright.

- I am more encouraged to achieve things in life and contribute things to society. I was lazy before, but now I try to use my time the best way possible.


Some of the things, why I think God exists.
And for people who do not have these feelings, there are many signs and proofs.
If you use your common sense and connect all the dots that will appear, you'll see the whole picture.

Atleast, that if you want God to exist.

Appeal to consequences logical fallacy.

I don't have those feelings. I never did, and I can say with reasonable certainty that I probably never will. I was a Christian before...maybe I should have been a Muslim to experience those things?

What signs and proofs? So far you've only pointed to a couple vague scriptures that you have interpreted to be very simplistic statements about modern scientific knowledge, and you have still failed to give me the exact scripture/passage/verse/whatever you call it in your religion where the Koran describes how an embryo matures.

Hi Guys,

I'll quickly introduce myself before I start spewing this incredible wall of text all over your monitors. I'm a real-life friend of iSok, whom I've been debating religion with for a while now. I'm currently also reading the koran and any and all information regarding religion in general. Like iSok, I'm also a university student currently living in the Netherlands. He told me over MSN he was on this forum, and after reading (err, plowing) through this thread I deem it interesting enough to post some stuff too  :D) with him.

If you can keep this in mind while reading his posts, a lot of what he says will start to make some sense.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I'm an atheist for a lot of the reasons you cited in your first post. The big reason is a lack of proof -- indeed, the Judeo-Christian God even has evidence against his existence; like the problem of evil, for example, which I've been discussing in this thread (http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6552).

Until you can not only give me proof of Allah's existence, but reasons why the apparent contradictions and blatant absurdities aren't so, then I have every reason to reject him.

What do you see as apparent contradictions and blatant absurdities in the Koran/Allah's existence? Absolute proof of allah's existence obviously doesn't exist so he can't give you that. iSok can only tell you what he sees as signs (proof), whether you see the same  things as proof is up to you. He hasn't been able to convince me yet, either :secret:[/quote]

This was a reaction to one example iSok put in. It was a pretty bad example so I understand why you posted this, but if you had instead posted why the example was bad, you would've added something to the discussion. I honestly think he doesn't/didn't understand the example he posted was bad.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Tank"What will you do if you find your world view is wrong?

I will probably never find that out.
But if I did, I'd probably live according to the same values as I do now.
I have nothing to lose.

This is pretty funny. Here's iSok telling people to be open minded..While he himself obviously isn't being open minded here.

Quote from: "Tank"Fair enough.

Quote from: "iSok"What will you do if you die and it turns out that there is an afterlife?

Seriously? I'd ask Allah to explain why he's such an arsehole. I really would. He has fucked this world over and everybody on it since its creation, apparently for his own amusement.

That's just rediculous :) He's only stating the reasons why he believes in God and the Koran. I might add that he hasn't done so in a very coherent way, then again it is pretty hard to do so with this material. He's not an imam.

Quote from: "Existentialist"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Why not just enjoy the Koran as a work of fiction?  We all know there's no God and that the content of the Koran isn't true.  I just wonder if it's a bit pointless trying to persuade a muslim who thinks the book is brilliant that its claims aren't true.  What's the worst consequence of letting someone hold the view that something is true while not obtaining the proof that it is?  It's still a good book - or at least as good as the person who reads it out or chants it, and such things are a matter of opinion anyway.

Well, if that's your opinion, then theres really no point in having a discussion, is there? "We all know there's no God and that the content of the koran isn't true"? Err. We don't all know that. Please try to keep an open mind. Convincing iSok that his claims aren't true will be pretty hard, but I wonder what's harder, convincing him the koran isn't true, or convincing you they are? You're doing the exact same thing here. Really, this might come off as a bit offensive... I'm not trying to attack anyone here Just trying to make a point.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Are you really going to keep bringing up the videos I posted?

Also, are you not going to address the logical fallacy problem I pointed out?

Also also, like Existentialist said, this is not proof of divine origin.

You're right about the logical fallacy as far as I'm concerned. But do keep in mind he's trying to come up with reasons why HE believes in the Koran.

Also, I'd like to say to the people that said the bible / koran was boring to read, that these books are only boring if you weren't really serious about reading them with an open mind. In other words, to find some sort of meaning in them, without telling yourself that "this crap isn't real anyway and God doesn't exist".

Quote from: "Existentialist"Can I ask why an atheist needs to know anything about religion?

What, seriously now? You're saying that in a discussion about religion, you don't really need to know anything about religion? In other words, you don't need to know anything about the subject matter at hand because you're going to refute everything immediately anyway since you're an atheist? If that's the case, I don't understand what you're even doing here. You're not being open minded, nor are you going to take any discussion value inherent in this thread seriously. I hope you can change that.

Quote from: "Existentialist"I hope you don't mind if I put forward a third.  That despite all the proof you're putting forward, someone else holds a different position on the existence of God.  We shouldn't really need proof either way, if you think that what you believe is important, proof has no impact.

It's fine that we're all holding different positions on the existence of God and your last sentence is definitely correct. But you're not going into iSok's arguments much.

Quote from: "iSok"is this a debate about Islam?

Or a debate about what defines a debate?


Ls. your question about in what religious scripture that (embryology) is stated...well it is in the Qur'an (The scripture we have been talking about for hours..and hours)
You call yourself already an atheist, while you don't even know the most basic answers to religion.....

So far..in this almost 75 posts large topic, the only two objections I found against the existence of God.

- Lack of proof  --> I'm giving proof, but all the proof I give..people do not seem to read, or is it just me? All the proof I give is either coincidence or dumb interpretation.
  Are we really open minded here?

- Problem of evil   --> (I explained evil)  --> no one questioned it?

Ls, how can you reasonably follow a debate, if you don't have a clue about the Qur'an....you talk about 'scriptures?'

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that so many of you closed all doors and convinced themselves that there is No God.
No one here has ever read the Qur'an... (Islam, second largest religion in the world)...but you call yourself atheists....I thought atheists were convinced by
evaluating every religion. To me it sounds more and more a hype from what I have seen here.


Or am I wrong?

Didn't you claim that the god of the christians is also the god of the muslims?  I spent years of my life searching for evidence of god and found nothing.  Quite a few atheists used to be believers, but lack of evidence of the existence of god and inherent contradictions in the claims of holy books and religions caused them to start questioning.  If you have evidence you think we have not considered, please present it; but know that quotes from the quran are not evidence unless you can show that it is actually written by a deity - and first you have to show there is a deity.

QuoteAnd who made it that way?

You'll make it that way, just like in this society, you are responsible for yourself.
He does not force you to do bad things, you do it yourself.
Stop blaming Him.

QuoteSo, you simply have to believe in some morals?

Yes the morals, I posted are probably the basics of every society.
If you function in this society, you are already believing in them.

QuoteWhich really ugly one?

You know that, and you condemd yourself for that, I already explained.

QuoteWhy is it good to have free will? Why is it good to be an individual?

Robot Ls

QuoteAnd if we politely respond "no, thank you", we will go to Hell.

I don't know whether you go to Hell.
Maybe you have morals of such high esteem, that you will be send straight to heaven.
He created you so. Like parents can disicpline their children

Quote...What.

That this stage of life is a part of creation, the creation and development of our soul.

QuoteLike I said before, I've never read the Koran. Passages? Verses? What specific text of the Koran describes how embryos mature?

It's not wise to deny something you've never heard off or understood.

QuoteA lot of us here do believe that there is no God -- no Judeo-Christian god, that is.

Same as the Islamic God, give yourself another chance by reading the Qur'an.

QuoteAll three Abrahamic religions have the same basic core concept. I don't spend my time reading all the world's religious scripture. Give me a reason to read your specific holy book, and I will.

Because they DO NOT have the same concept..once again lack of knowledge....

QuoteIt's a large read, but surely someone who thinks that I should read his holy book holds himself to the same standards.

Did you read it yourself?
Or are you posting it since it's a long article and it should makes sense.

if you have read it, please give a summary.

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteCan I ask why an atheist needs to know anything about religion?

Please Existent, you are not seriously meaning this.....this just shows how you decided to be an atheist....
May I ask your personal story, were you raised as an Atheist? or Religious? you can PM it.

QuoteI hope you don't mind if I put forward a third.  That despite all the proof you're putting forward, someone else holds a different position on the existence of God.  We shouldn't really need proof either way, if you think that what you believe is important, proof has no impact.

well, why do I think that there's a God?

- Well I don't need proof of the type I showed here.


-  It is whenever I pray, I am off this world.
   It's a certain spiritual feeling, I can't describe it, something you need to experience.

- Or when you read the Quran, every doubt in my heart is destroyed., it's almost if the Qur'an commands you to think
  and reflect.

- I used to care about materialistic objects, they are nice but not essential in life.
  There's a certain type of calmness in my heart, in my mind that I neither can't describe, this feeling is especially strong after prayer
  A feeling of peace.

- I can control myself far more than before(anger for example), my moral has grown in some way since I started practising.

- Not terrified of loss of loved ones in my life, the feeling that everything is going to be alright.

- I am more encouraged to achieve things in life and contribute things to society. I was lazy before, but now I try to use my time the best way possible.


Some of the things, why I think God exists.
And for people who do not have these feelings, there are many signs and proofs.
If you use your common sense and connect all the dots that will appear, you'll see the whole picture.

Atleast, that if you want God to exist.

I get those many of those same feelings after meditating - just sitting still and focusing on my breathing.  Feelings are not proof either.  I'm happy for you that you have found something that exerts a positive influence in your life, but the same thing has been claimed for all sorts of belief systems.

At Ls, I found the source of your article.

www.answering-islam.com (http://www.answering-islam.com)  --> This is against Islam --> pro christianity

www.answering-christianity.com (http://www.answering-christianity.com)  --> This is against christianity --> pro islam.

I don't trust the content of this websites. Both made false claims in the past.
I'd rather trust Dr. Moore about this case than a priest who knows nothing about embryology.

So your source is at the very least doubtful.



My question is:

Do you people even want a God to exist?

Want has nothing to do with it.  We are simply asking for believers to provide evidence for their claims that deities exist - using something other than a circular argument.

Quote from: "Velma"Want has nothing to do with it.  We are simply asking for believers to provide evidence for their claims that deities exist - using something other than a circular argument.

Let me put it in a different way.
- Would you find it a good thing if a God existed?

Quote from: "Simonsimon"Hi Guys,

I'll quickly introduce myself before I start spewing this incredible wall of text all over your monitors. I'm a real-life friend of iSok, whom I've been debating religion with for a while now. I'm currently also reading the koran and any and all information regarding religion in general. Like iSok, I'm also a university student currently living in the Netherlands. He told me over MSN he was on this forum, and after reading (err, plowing) through this thread I deem it interesting enough to post some stuff too  :D) with him.

And I do take him seriously, and I understand that he believes that the Koran is true.

QuoteIf you can keep this in mind while reading his posts, a lot of what he says will start to make some sense.

I understand what he's saying.

Quote

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"I'm an atheist for a lot of the reasons you cited in your first post. The big reason is a lack of proof -- indeed, the Judeo-Christian God even has evidence against his existence; like the problem of evil, for example, which I've been discussing in this thread (http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6552).

Until you can not only give me proof of Allah's existence, but reasons why the apparent contradictions and blatant absurdities aren't so, then I have every reason to reject him.

What do you see as apparent contradictions and blatant absurdities in the Koran/Allah's existence?

Mostly just the problems of evil, and the contradiction between traits. I haven't read the Koran -- only the Bible, so I can only use arguments against the general Judeo-Christian God.

QuoteAbsolute proof of allah's existence obviously doesn't exist so he can't give you that.

That's not what I ask for anyways.

QuoteiSok can only tell you what he sees as signs (proof), whether you see the same  things as proof is up to you. He hasn't been able to convince me yet, either :) Allah gives people free will. Anything they do is something they're responsible for. You can't blame the god for the wrongdoings of people, even if people do these things in name of a god.

Why would Allah allow people to do wrongdoings?

QuoteSeemed to be a valid point at first, but he CAN point out why he believes the koran to be true by giving examples taken from the koran, can't he? He can't however, objectively prove to other people such as you that the koran is true in this way. That's exactly the point, only individually can you get 'proof' that whatever the Koran states is true, or that God exists. Would be pretty weird if there was some sort of objective proof that God existed, we wouldn't be having this argument in the first place He's only stating the reasons why he believes in God and the Koran. I might add that he hasn't done so in a very coherent way, then again it is pretty hard to do so with this material. He's not an imam.

He's trying to debate with us and use these proofs.

QuoteAlso, I'd like to say to the people that said the bible / koran was boring to read, that these books are only boring if you weren't really serious about reading them with an open mind. In other words, to find some sort of meaning in them, without telling yourself that "this crap isn't real anyway and God doesn't exist".

No. Even when I was a Christian, I found the Bible boring.

Quote from: "Velma"Want has nothing to do with it.  We are simply asking for believers to provide evidence for their claims that deities exist - using something other than a circular argument.

But are you open to God existing?

'Evidence' that god exists is probably only available on an individual basis. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument, see my first post.

ok the next argument.
A prophecy.

This verse is about the Pharao who went after Moses, when he drowned.


(10:90) And We led the Children of Israel across the sea. Then Pharaoh and his hosts pursued them in iniquity and transgression until Pharaoh cried out while he was drowning: 'I believe that there is no god but Allah in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am also one of those who submit to Allah.


(10:91) (Thereupon came the response): 'Now you believe, although you disobeyed earlier and were one of the mischief-makers.


(10:92) We shall now save your corpse that you may serve as a sign of warning for all posterity although many men are heedless of Our signs.


That Pharao was called  'Merenptah'.
http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/28/2805/D2COD00Z/posters/garrett-kenneth-mummy-of-merenptah-in-the-cairo-museum.jpg

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Velma"Want has nothing to do with it.  We are simply asking for believers to provide evidence for their claims that deities exist - using something other than a circular argument.

Let me put it in a different way.
- Would you find it a good thing if a God existed?

Depends on which god you are talking about.  The god described by jews, christians, and muslims wouldn't even be a decent human being much less a good god.  Other gods described by other religions, it would depend on which one you were talking about.

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteAnd who made it that way?

You'll make it that way, just like in this society, you are responsible for yourself.
He does not force you to do bad things, you do it yourself.
Stop blaming Him.

Yeah, I should really stop blaming the creator and start blaming the creation.

Quote

QuoteSo, you simply have to believe in some morals?

Yes the morals, I posted are probably the basics of every society.
If you function in this society, you are already believing in them.

But I don't even have to follow them? I just have to believe in some words?

Anyone can say they believe in "justice", or "compassion", or "forgiveness". They are so vague as to almost everyone would claim to believe in them.

Quote

QuoteWhich really ugly one?

You know that, and you condemd yourself for that, I already explained.

You mean, The Chinvat Bridge, as described in Zoastrianism?

Quote

QuoteWhy is it good to have free will? Why is it good to be an individual?

Robot Ls

Why is it bad to be a robot?

Quote

QuoteAnd if we politely respond "no, thank you", we will go to Hell.

I don't know whether you go to Hell.
Maybe you have morals of such high esteem, that you will be send straight to heaven.
He created you so. Like parents can disicpline their children

My one moral principle is: "minimize pain and suffering, and maximize happiness and joy".

Quote

QuoteLike I said before, I've never read the Koran. Passages? Verses? What specific text of the Koran describes how embryos mature?

It's not wise to deny something you've never heard off or understood.

STOP DEFLECTING.
I've heard about Islam before. I understand the basics pretty well.

Have you read every single religious text that's available in the world? If you haven't, why not? It's not wise to deny something you've never heard of or understand.

Quote

QuoteA lot of us here do believe that there is no God -- no Judeo-Christian god, that is.

Same as the Islamic God, give yourself another chance by reading the Qur'an.

How does it differ from the Bible?

Quote

QuoteAll three Abrahamic religions have the same basic core concept. I don't spend my time reading all the world's religious scripture. Give me a reason to read your specific holy book, and I will.

Because they DO NOT have the same concept..once again lack of knowledge....

You just said that the Christian god and the Islamic God are the same God.

Quote from: "iSok"

QuoteIt's a large read, but surely someone who thinks that I should read his holy book holds himself to the same standards.

Did you read it yourself?
Or are you posting it since it's a long article and it should makes sense.

if you have read it, please give a summary.

Stop deflecting.

Next prophecy.

The promise to preserve the Qur'an

"We have revealed the Reminder and We have taken upon ourselves the duty of preserving it intact" (Al-Hijr 15:9)


The first original Qur'ans, consisted of about eight copies.
Two of those first copies from the seventh century can still be found.
One is in Turkey and the other is in Kazachstan I think.

Quote from: "iSok"At Ls, I found the source of your article.

http://www.answering-islam.com (http://www.answering-islam.com)  --> This is against Islam --> pro christianity

http://www.answering-christianity.com (http://www.answering-christianity.com)  --> This is against christianity --> pro islam.

I don't trust the content of this websites. Both made false claims in the past.
I'd rather trust Dr. Moore about this case than a priest who knows nothing about embryology.

So your source is at the very least doubtful.

Ad hominem. The source is irrelevant.

QuoteMy question is:

Do you people even want a God to exist?

Yes, but that too is irrelevant. I also want unicorns to exist.

Quote from: "Simonsimon"

Quote from: "Velma"Want has nothing to do with it.  We are simply asking for believers to provide evidence for their claims that deities exist - using something other than a circular argument.

But are you open to God existing?

'Evidence' that god exists is probably only available on an individual basis. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument, see my first post.

Which makes it very probable that God only exists in the minds of believers.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

QuoteIf you can keep this in mind while reading his posts, a lot of what he says will start to make some sense.

I understand what he's saying.

I know, my text wasnt pointed at you, you seem the most open-minded so far :P

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

QuoteiSok can only tell you what he sees as signs (proof), whether you see the same  things as proof is up to you. He hasn't been able to convince me yet, either :D I'm sure he can come up with better arguments.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

QuoteThat's just rediculous :) He's only stating the reasons why he believes in God and the Koran. I might add that he hasn't done so in a very coherent way, then again it is pretty hard to do so with this material. He's not an imam.

He's trying to debate with us and use these proofs.

Yeah, he's trying to elaborate on why these proofs that have convinced him are good. No luck convincing us yet though.

QuoteAlso, I'd like to say to the people that said the bible / koran was boring to read, that these books are only boring if you weren't really serious about reading them with an open mind. In other words, to find some sort of meaning in them, without telling yourself that "this crap isn't real anyway and God doesn't exist".

No. Even when I was a Christian, I found the Bible boring.

Were you really trying to find meaning in it? In what way were you christian? Just raised to be one, but not really a believer? Or were you a terribly rigid dogmatic person

Quote from: "iSok"ok the next argument.
A prophecy.

This verse is about the Pharao who went after Moses, when he drowned.


(10:90) And We led the Children of Israel across the sea. Then Pharaoh and his hosts pursued them in iniquity and transgression until Pharaoh cried out while he was drowning: 'I believe that there is no god but Allah in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am also one of those who submit to Allah.


(10:91) (Thereupon came the response): 'Now you believe, although you disobeyed earlier and were one of the mischief-makers.


(10:92) We shall now save your corpse that you may serve as a sign of warning for all posterity although many men are heedless of Our signs.


That Pharao was called  'Merenptah'.
http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/28/2805/D2COD00Z/posters/garrett-kenneth-mummy-of-merenptah-in-the-cairo-museum.jpg

One part of your book confirms another part of your book. That is not compelling enough to believe its claims.

This is what Velma meant when she said that you can't use the Qur'an as proof that it's true.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Simonsimon"

Quote from: "Velma"Want has nothing to do with it.  We are simply asking for believers to provide evidence for their claims that deities exist - using something other than a circular argument.

But are you open to God existing?

'Evidence' that god exists is probably only available on an individual basis. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument, see my first post.

Which makes it very probable that God only exists in the minds of believers.

Nah, come on you're smarter than that. That only believers see 'proof' of something, doesn't mean that God doesn't exist just because the rest isn't seeing it.

Ls.

You seem to question two different ways.

- Why are we here?

- The divine origin of the Qur'an.


First of all, please ask as many questions as possible about the first subject.
'Why are we here?' Every possible question that pops up in your mind, I will try to answer.

Quote from: "iSok"Next prophecy.

The promise to preserve the Qur'an

"We have revealed the Reminder and We have taken upon ourselves the duty of preserving it intact" (Al-Hijr 15:9)


The first original Qur'ans, consisted of about eight copies.
Two of those first copies from the seventh century can still be found.
One is in Turkey and the other is in Kazachstan I think.

I've said before that I don't consider arguments for one religion valid if the exact same argument can be used for another religion. Christians use the fact that their Bible is still around, and so popular to boot, as evidence that it's true.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "iSok"Next prophecy.

The promise to preserve the Qur'an

"We have revealed the Reminder and We have taken upon ourselves the duty of preserving it intact" (Al-Hijr 15:9)


The first original Qur'ans, consisted of about eight copies.
Two of those first copies from the seventh century can still be found.
One is in Turkey and the other is in Kazachstan I think.

I've said before that I don't consider arguments for one religion valid if the exact same argument can be used for another religion. Christians use the fact that their Bible is still around, and so popular to boot, as evidence that it's true.

I will give every answer.
I'm waiting for your questions regarding the creation of mankind.
Regarding free will etc...ask all your questions so we can move on.

Quote from: "Simonsimon"Nah, come on you're smarter than that. That only believers see 'proof' of something, doesn't mean that God doesn't exist just because the rest isn't seeing it.

It's not that -- it's the fact that the only "evidence" for any religion is subjective. And then there's the fact that's it's all conflicting.

It's like if someone came up to you and said that there was a giant dragon flying above the city. You say that you don't see any dragon; in response, he claims that he sees the dragon there -- he can feel its presence, and it makes him all happy inside. Then, another person comes up to you and says he's overheard your conservation, and wants to point out that it's not actually a dragon that's flying above the city, but a unicorn. He gives the exact same subjective arguments for its existence as the man claiming that it was a dragon did.

While this alone doesn't prove that their claims are false, it definitely gives me no reason to believe either of them.

Quote from: "Simonsimon"I know, my text wasnt pointed at you, you seem the most open-minded so far :P

Actually, that was the exact sort of answer to the "why does evil exist?" question that I addressed -- over and over -- in my thread. The entire argument falls apart for me when I consider that God was the same person who made it so that it's impossible to know good without evil. Why couldn't he have made it so that we can know good without evil?

QuoteI've just answered that, I hope. If my answer wasn't clear enough yet, tell me and I'll try to rephrase.

No, it was clear. I hope you consider my response to it.

QuoteWere you really trying to find meaning in it? In what way were you christian? Just raised to be one, but not really a believer? Or were you a terribly rigid dogmatic person

Eh, I'm not sure if I was "really" a Christian in the deep part of my consciousness. I was indoctrinated into it from birth, and I did at least superficially believe it.

Okay, iSok:

Why did Allah create evil and imperfection? It would be best if you my "Why Did God Have to Make Evil?" thread before responding.

ok your first question:

Why is there evil?

- I already explained that mankind has it's own will.

- I also explained that this life is a stage of creation.

Muslims believe God put a spirit of him in every man.
That spirit has values/morals.

In this life we can either increase these values or destroy them.
The evil in this world is meant for our development. The evil in this world is also because of some of mankind's action.
Some want to rage wars for political ideology's  --> Communism / Capatalism

We will learn from it, we will appreciate peace once when we have seen war.
So it's not God that creates Evil. it's us.

Evil = against the morality that God has given us.

Basically this life is the final stage of creation.
We can help our development by praying, believing and doing things that act with God's morality that is given us, so it may grow.
In this stage we will develop our soul, we will grow towards God.

Do I need to go in-depth?
next question?

QuoteOkay, iSok:

Why did Allah create evil and imperfection? It would be best if you my "Why Did God Have to Make Evil?" thread before responding.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"It's not that -- it's the fact that the only "evidence" for any religion is subjective. And then there's the fact that's it's all conflicting.

I'll obviously agree on the evidence being subjective. What exactly is conflicting about it?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"It's like if someone came up to you and said that there was a giant dragon flying above the city. You say that you don't see any dragon; in response, he claims that he sees the dragon there -- he can feel its presence, and it makes him all happy inside. Then, another person comes up to you and says he's overheard your conservation, and wants to point out that it's not actually a dragon that's flying above the city, but a unicorn. He gives the exact same subjective arguments for its existence as the man claiming that it was a dragon did.

While this alone doesn't prove that their claims are false, it definitely gives me no reason to believe either of them.

Problem is, there's no giant Book of Dragonkin which gives meaning to the existence of the beast. With the religious books there's at least a point of reference from which you may or may not derive evidence to believe in religion. That evidence would still be subjective of course, but at least it's based on something. If you had put a Dragonkoran in your story, we would've had the same situation we now have with religion: You either do or don't believe in the religion using subjective evidence.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Simonsimon"I know, my text wasnt pointed at you, you seem the most open-minded so far :P

Actually, that was the exact sort of answer to the "why does evil exist?" question that I addressed -- over and over -- in my thread. The entire argument falls apart for me when I consider that God was the same person who made it so that it's impossible to know good without evil. Why couldn't he have made it so that we can know good without evil?

Good one. I'm not entirely sure I can answer that, but here goes nothing.. I guess he needed some sort of construct to make sure a human being could advance himself (which is the purpose of our lives here, according to the koran). If he hadn't done it this way, how would people be able to come closer to god? A rupture between two opposing fronts, and freedom of choice to choose between the two was necessary.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

QuoteWere you really trying to find meaning in it? In what way were you christian? Just raised to be one, but not really a believer? Or were you a terribly rigid dogmatic person

Eh, I'm not sure if I was "really" a Christian in the deep part of my consciousness. I was indoctrinated into it from birth, and I did at least superficially believe it.

Exactly. If you had been a "true christian" after having read the bible and being deeply convinced of the truth therein, there would be no way you would find the bible or the koran boring. It's just a matter of whether you want to find meaning in the bible or not. (Whether you actually do or not is up for debate of course)

Hi Isok.  What time is it in Holland? 4am?  

So.  I was thinking about your argument from earlier (which I dont believe was answered:

Quote"By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."[Qur'an 70:4]

Angels are made of light.

Well, im not sure that light can build, talk, sing, think, etc, but lets say for the sake of argument that these beings of light are endowed with abilities through the will of Allah.  Let's run with that.

Quotet’ = (1-v2/c2)-1/2 (t-vx/c2)

where v = speed traveled
c = the speed of light (5.88 x 1012 miles/year)
x = position in space (defined by the equation x2 = c2t2)
t’ and t (single day = 2.7397 x 10-3 years and 50.000 years) are the two differing time perspectives.

Do you know what the answer will be for v (traveled speed by object) if you use those values for t' and t ?
yes indeed, the speed of light. Coincidence?
What that means is that two observers moving at different speeds will perceive time, size, and mass to be different. At speeds such as those traveled by humans in the present age, such differences are negligible.

Not when you travel at the speed of light.

So here we have an elegant equation entailing time perspectives, speed of light. Position in space, etc.  And an excellent question, which is:  

QuoteCoincidence?

Well, first let's'see what the English translations of the Qur'an say of Surah 70:4:


Sahih International

The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.

Muhsin Khan

The angels and the Ruh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years,

Pickthall

(Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.

Yusuf Ali

The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:

Shakir

To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

Dr. Ghali

To Him the Angels and the Spirit ascend with difficulty to Him in a Day whereof the determined (length) is fifty thousand years

OK.
So one literal translation of that verse could be 'Angels can travel so fast that an angel can go 50,000 times farther that a human in a day.'  This seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to say if angels existed.  Startlingly straightforward.  No need to wait for the theory of relativity for that one - i would expect angels to have many superhuman qualities, regardless of whether or not they could be inserted into equations -

In truth, I dont know what the probablity of such a coincidence is, but I'm sure it's less that the alternative:  that there really are angels made of light who travel at the speed of light to be Allah's messengers.

What im trying to say, Isok, is that just because these 2 figures show up in holy scripture in the context of travel, it doesnt make it true to say 'well, the Koran must be talking about objective scientific fact.'

Oh, and one more thing:


QuoteThe Prophet was actually illiterate, most people think he wrote the Qur'an.

A great many people say the Qur'an is a masterpiece.  But does this mean that its words are from the divine?  Why?  Because it says so? Because someone else says so? Whatever you decide the answer is, I'm glad to have made your aquaintance.

Quote from: "Simonsimon"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"It's not that -- it's the fact that the only "evidence" for any religion is subjective. And then there's the fact that's it's all conflicting.

I'll obviously agree on the evidence being subjective. What exactly is conflicting about it?

Most of the modern religions are incompatible with each other. Either one of them is a true, a couple of the compatible ones are true, or none of them are true.

QuoteProblem is, there's no giant Book of Dragonkin which gives meaning to the existence of the beast. With the religious books there's at least a point of reference from which you may or may not derive evidence to believe in religion. That evidence would still be subjective of course, but at least it's based on something. If you had put a Dragonkoran in your story, we would've had the same situation we now have with religion: You either do or don't believe in the religion using subjective evidence.

The medium it's in -- written or oral -- doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, they're both asking, or telling, you to believe in something which has no evidence.

QuoteGood one. I'm not entirely sure I can answer that, but here goes nothing.. I guess he needed some sort of construct to make sure a human being could advance himself (which is the purpose of our lives here, according to the koran). If he hadn't done it this way, how would people be able to come closer to god? A rupture between two opposing fronts, and freedom of choice to choose between the two was necessary.

Again, why does this have to be so? Why did the other opposing front have to be evil/sin? Why is freedom of choice necessary? Why couldn't we all be as close to God as he wants us without evil?

When you combine omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, evil should not exist. I don't know of any excuse that makes sense for why there is evil.

QuoteExactly. If you had been a "true christian" after having read the bible and being deeply convinced of the truth therein, there would be no way you would find the bible or the koran boring. It's just a matter of whether you want to find meaning in the bible or not. (Whether you actually do or not is up for debate of course)

That sounds like a No True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't really care. I probably wasn't a "true Christian", which is actually better to me.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Most of the modern religions are incompatible with each other. Either one of them is a true, a couple of the compatible ones are true, or none of them are true.

That's right. But the Koran states that it was the last, final 'product', that the previous books were there because humanity wasn't ready for the final version. iSok will have to correct me on this if I'm mistaken.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"The medium it's in -- written or oral -- doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, they're both asking, or telling, you to believe in something which has no evidence.

[/quote]

Ok, I think you have a point here.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"When you combine omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, evil should not exist. I don't know of any excuse that makes sense for why there is evil.

No, it's possible for god to make evil non-existent if he's all those things. He chose for evil to exist so that there could be a difference between good and evil. As to why, I'm not entirely sure if you consider that he could have made it differently (there being no difference between good and evil, yet still a way for people to advance their souls somehow). The koran does state that life should be a struggle, one of freedom of choice and the ability to choose between good and evil. He definitely did all this on purpose. Why, I can't really answer. I'm not god.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Exactly. If you had been a "true christian" after having read the bible and being deeply convinced of the truth therein, there would be no way you would find the bible or the koran boring. It's just a matter of whether you want to find meaning in the bible or not. (Whether you actually do or not is up for debate of course)
That sounds like a No True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't really care. I probably wasn't a "true Christian", which is actually better to me.

Yeah, it's a bit of a fallacy the way I put it. What I meant was, if you had read the bible while looking for (and finding) meaning in it (which would make you a 'true' christian I guess, although yeah that doesn't exist) you would've found the bible to be interesting. But I agree, not a very interesting point.

Anyway, it's getting kinda..eh...early. It's 4:30am. Good think we started this on saturday night...

Quote from: "theclassicist"Hi Isok.  What time is it in Holland? 4am?  

So.  I was thinking about your argument from earlier (which I dont believe was answered:

Quote"By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."[Qur'an 70:4]

Angels are made of light.

Well, im not sure that light can build, talk, sing, think, etc, but lets say for the sake of argument that these beings of light are endowed with abilities through the will of Allah.  Let's run with that.

Quotet’ = (1-v2/c2)-1/2 (t-vx/c2)

where v = speed traveled
c = the speed of light (5.88 x 1012 miles/year)
x = position in space (defined by the equation x2 = c2t2)
t’ and t (single day = 2.7397 x 10-3 years and 50.000 years) are the two differing time perspectives.

Do you know what the answer will be for v (traveled speed by object) if you use those values for t' and t ?
yes indeed, the speed of light. Coincidence?
What that means is that two observers moving at different speeds will perceive time, size, and mass to be different. At speeds such as those traveled by humans in the present age, such differences are negligible.

Not when you travel at the speed of light.

So here we have an elegant equation entailing time perspectives, speed of light. Position in space, etc.  And an excellent question, which is:  

QuoteCoincidence?

Well, first let's'see what the English translations of the Qur'an say of Surah 70:4:


Sahih International

The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.

Muhsin Khan

The angels and the Ruh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years,

Pickthall

(Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.

Yusuf Ali

The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:

Shakir

To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

Dr. Ghali

To Him the Angels and the Spirit ascend with difficulty to Him in a Day whereof the determined (length) is fifty thousand years

OK.
So one literal translation of that verse could be 'Angels can travel so fast that an angel can go 50,000 times farther that a human in a day.'  This seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to say if angels existed.  Startlingly straightforward.  No need to wait for the theory of relativity for that one - i would expect angels to have many superhuman qualities, regardless of whether or not they could be inserted into equations -

In truth, I dont know what the probablity of such a coincidence is, but I'm sure it's less that the alternative:  that there really are angels made of light who travel at the speed of light to be Allah's messengers.

What im trying to say, Isok, is that just because these 2 figures show up in holy scripture in the context of travel, it doesnt make it true to say 'well, the Koran must be talking about objective scientific fact.'

Oh, and one more thing:


QuoteThe Prophet was actually illiterate, most people think he wrote the Qur'an.

A great many people say the Qur'an is a masterpiece.  But does this mean that its words are from the divine?  Why?  Because it says so? Because someone else says so? Whatever you decide the answer is, I'm glad to have made your aquaintance.

Hello there,


Well I'm glad someone finally reacted.
It is indeed 4 am here, I'm desperately waiting for Ls questions to be answered


Well, indeed it can be coincidence.

But when we reflect upon this, it does make us think.

The author choose the value for a day to be 50.000 years.
ïf I were to ask you, to randomly mention a number, what are the chances you will say '50.000'?

What is more weird, is that the whole verse would not make sense, in the way it's written.
'They ascent to Him in one day which is at the length of 50000 years'.

Even 200 years ago, no one would write it down that way.
You need to have knowledge of the theory of relativity, to write it down that way.
It does not say that the angels travel 50.000 times faster than humans.
It tells us that when angels travel, they experience differents in time.
That is the unbelievable thing about it...




Let us reflect this. We see an Arab man making this verse up in the middle of the desert.
It's not just that he had dumb luck by mentioning the EXACT number.
But he also writes it down, probably not even knowing what he says.

for example if he could pick 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, til 100000
The chance that he'd pick 50 000 is 1%. That is just by luck..ok that is a chance.
Well, now he has to write it down in a way that is unknown to him (using the theory of relativity)
even if that's 50% (which I doubt) --> The outcome of probability is 0,5% chance that he could guess this. JUST THIS ONE verse.

The Qur'an gives another staggering 1000 signs. The chance that of all that could be luck is practical equal to zero.
It's not a book of science but a book of signs.
Proof for those who cannot blindly believe, the Qur'an tells continuosly to reason.

Once again, if you add all those verses up which are right.
Then the chance that Muhammad (pbuh) all could have just made this up is more likely less than 0,0000001.
but still, it is a chance...right?

Quote from: "Simonsimon"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"When you combine omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, evil should not exist. I don't know of any excuse that makes sense for why there is evil.

No, it's possible for god to make evil non-existent if he's all those things. He chose for evil to exist so that there could be a difference between good and evil. As to why, I'm not entirely sure if you consider that he could have made it differently (there being no difference between good and evil, yet still a way for people to advance their souls somehow). The koran does state that life should be a struggle, one of freedom of choice and the ability to choose between good and evil. He definitely did all this on purpose. Why, I can't really answer. I'm not god.

I don't think so. I mean, if he's omnibenevolent, then he wants what's best for us. If he's omnipotent and created the universe, then that means he has the power to do whatever he wants. Add in omniscience and that rules out lack of knowledge or foresight. What we're left with is that, logically, we should be perfect creations and evil shouldn't exist. But, obviously, that's far from true. We can either conclude that he's not all powerful, he's not all good (I'd actually consider him downright evil), he made a mistake, or he doesn't exist.

Quote

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

QuoteExactly. If you had been a "true christian" after having read the bible and being deeply convinced of the truth therein, there would be no way you would find the bible or the koran boring. It's just a matter of whether you want to find meaning in the bible or not. (Whether you actually do or not is up for debate of course)

That sounds like a No True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't really care. I probably wasn't a "true Christian", which is actually better to me.

Yeah, it's a bit of a fallacy the way I put it. What I meant was, if you had read the bible while looking for (and finding) meaning in it (which would make you a 'true' christian I guess, although yeah that doesn't exist) you would've found the bible to be interesting. But I agree, not a very interesting point.

Anyway, it's getting kinda..eh...early. It's 4:30am. Good think we started this on saturday night...

It's only 7:40 here.

Hi Isok

You said:  

QuoteThey ascent to Him in one day which is at the length of 50000 years'.

Even 200 years ago, no one would write it down that way.
You need to have knowledge of the theory of relativity, to write it down...

The ancient Greek historians of Aristotle's time (say, fourth century BCE) wrote accounts of the gods parting the waves for Alexander the Great's armies to pass, and that the gods fought on the side of the Delphians against the Persians by throwing boulders at them and sending 2 giant heroes to miraculously appear and fight on the Delphian side.  The Romans practiced divination and ritual before undertaking any serious matter - in one case, when some holy chickens didnt react in the way that an admiral hoped, he had them thrown overboard in disgust - only to lose the battle.  The ancient Celts are reported to have believed in reincarnation, and the education of their priests in the 1st century BCE (including mathematical equations) took about 7 years.  The Tibetan buddhists have a prophecy about iron eagles flying and buddhism coming to the west, and the christians have armfuls of apocalyptic predictions which are part of the reason the US finds the middle east so easy to invade.  Every religion longs for its claims to be fulfilled and every believer longs for his or her beliefs to be verified.

I dont know what the chances are of such coincidences as those in Qur'an 70:4 are of being linked to the theories of space/time - but i do think that the chances of Allah being real are not much different to those that Thor or Apollo being real.

I was brought up in a christian sect that believed they would participate in the return of christ at any moment, and taught at age 5 that i would be given political power in gods new kingdom because of my family's religion.  I think scriptural evidence for beliefs is intriguing, but not a trustworthy source of belief.

Warmly

G.

Nostradamus said a lot of vaguely accurate things as well... If one were to build a calculation around some of the things he said, would you consider that to be evidence that the Qur'an is wrong and that he is right? I'm asking beforehand because I don't want to waste any time if that's not going to convince you.

Quote from: "Davin"Nostradamus said a lot of vaguely accurate things as well... If one were to build a calculation around some of the things he said, would you consider that to be evidence that the Qur'an is wrong and that he is right? I'm asking beforehand because I don't want to waste any time if that's not going to convince you.

Exactly.

Be careful, though, Davin. We might end up with another Dennis Markuze on our hands if you do that.  

Thanks for replying,


Well, what we believe is that a lot of religions that came, had as source divine inspiration (not all of them).
But people corrupted it for their own benefits, we see these examples through out history.

We regard the Qur'an as the final relevation of God towards mankind.
And He promised that He will keep the Qur'an intact and original (The original Qur'an can still be found).
We as muslims believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was foretold in the Old testament and in the New testament.

Second point is, that it seems that many people regard religion as something backward and evil.
But every historian will agree that whenever the Qur'an was relevated in the year 632.
The Islamic countries paid a HUGE contribution to every field of science in the world. The muslim
countries pioneered on every field (Algebra, Geometry, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Medecine, Astrophysics an so on..) possible. Read history.

Sadly it's just that the last 100 years, the tide seem to have changed.
Before that, Muslim countries had the leading role.


I'm not afraid to conclude that the Qur'an (divine or not) is probably the Book that has lifted mankind out of the darkness
of backwardness into the light of eternal wisdom. And is by far the book which has inspired so many great people of knowledge.
Ever since it's relevation, it swept as hurricane through out the Islamic world and bringing light, setting up civilizations who contributed a lot to mankind.
And inspired the Muslim world for over 1300 years, uptill the 19th century.
Divine or not, without the Qur'an the world wouldn't be by far as advanced as we see today.

That is maybe the greatest Miracle of the Qur'an, yet no one wants to see it.

Quote from: "iSok"Thanks for replying,


Well, what we believe is that a lot of religions that came, had as source divine inspiration (not all of them).
But people corrupted it for their own benefits, we see these examples through out history.

We regard the Qur'an as the final relevation of God towards mankind.
And He promised that He will keep the Qur'an intact and original (The original Qur'an can still be found).
We as muslims believe that Muhammad (pbuh) was foretold in the Old testament and in the New testament.

Great, but you still haven't offered any compelling evidence that this is actually true.

QuoteSecond point is, that it seems that many people regard religion as something backward and evil.
But every historian will agree that whenever the Qur'an was relevated in the year 632.
The Islamic countries paid a HUGE contribution to every field of science in the world. The muslim
countries pioneered on every field (Algebra, Geometry, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Medecine, Astrophysics an so on..) possible. Read history.

It's a logical fallacy to assume that just because something worked or was good in the past, it will work or is good now.

QuoteSadly it's just that the last 100 years, the tide seem to have changed.
Before that, Muslim countries had the leading role.

So, basically, you just nullified your above argument.

QuoteI'm not afraid to conclude that the Qur'an (divine or not) is probably the Book that has lifted mankind out of the darkness
of backwardness into the light of eternal wisdom. And is by far the book which has inspired so many great people of knowledge.
Ever since it's relevation, it swept as hurricane through out the Islamic world and bringing light, setting up civilizations who contributed a lot to mankind.
And inspired the Muslim world for over 1300 years, uptill the 19th century.
Divine or not, without the Qur'an the world wouldn't be by far as advanced as we see today.

I don't think so. Something else besides the Qur'an probably would have inspired people, or maybe they didn't need its inspiration after all.

QuoteThat is maybe the greatest Miracle of the Qur'an, yet no one wants to see it.

While it may have done some good in the past, it's archaic and out-dated now, and the world has no use for it.

Also, this is an appeal to consequences fallacy.

iSok,

First, welcome to HAF, we truly are glad to have someone from a different point of view visit.

However, We have a rule against preaching which I could have brought down on you quite a few posts ago.  Perhaps you simply don't understand how to differentiate between preaching (saying things without proof based on opinion) verses fact/evidence (making an argument and supporting it objectively).

While I have a soft spot for Muslims considering the recent uproar in many trying to label you all as terrorists that soft spot is quickly hardness by mindless preaching. I know Muslims are capable of deep thought, I've had more than one Muslim friend.

If you are too busy with school to offer a thoughtful response I suggest that you choose to bow out of current discussions till after you have more time to reply thoughtfully.  Much, if not all, of what you have said so far is the standard regurgitated arguments many of us have already heard in the past and which fall short once scrutinized.  I think we all would learn more if you were able to have time to use your own thoughts and words rather than having to spill out what has been taught to you by other mortal humans.

Thanks....oh, and please read the forum rules because if you don't take in the above advice I'll start enforcing them

Quote from: "Simonsimon"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Most of the modern religions are incompatible with each other. Either one of them is a true, a couple of the compatible ones are true, or none of them are true.

That's right. But the Koran states that it was the last, final 'product', that the previous books were there because humanity wasn't ready for the final version. iSok will have to correct me on this if I'm mistaken.

The Mormons would disagree with that statement, because their holy book was written after the Koran. Does that make the Book of Mormon more valid than the Koran? Of course not. For the same reason we cannot assume that the Koran is better than the Bible (or the Bible better than the Torah), just because it was written later.

Quote from: "iSok"The Islamic countries paid a HUGE contribution to every field of science in the world. The muslim
countries pioneered on every field (Algebra, Geometry, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, Medecine, Astrophysics an so on..) possible. Read history.

Past tense. Would muslims in a similar situation today go out of their way to preserve scientific progress? Are muslim countries today [in general] on the cutting edge of science and technology..?

History is good and well, but living in a dream of former glory only gets you this far. (And "this", in this context, is not far at all)

Hello all of you,

Yes I am kind of busy with my current studies.
I'll try to post now and then if I have time left.

Once again, what are my intentions?

I would like to learn why atheists think there's no God
second, in the very least I would like to make some of you doubt about their choice.
So let's all be open minded and use our common sense. There are many arguments going to follow, and I will explain each
I didn't read the forum rules so far.
For as far as I know --> Preaching: Calling to one's religion by quoting verses which contain NO proof.
I did that once, one post to show the people here that the Qur'an speaks about Signs.
Hence, I will read the rules and will defend each argument give.


About the book of Mormons or Nostradamus.

Let me tell you this, if you find one human being that is full of lies.
Do you generalise that all of them must be liars?
By common sense we know that the truth is there, so we have to find it.

If there was ONE contradiction in the Qur'an it would make me doubt severely.
But there isn't. I can't proof to you that there isn't.
But if you can find it, then share it here.


Nostradamus made mistakes at first.
His prophecies are very vague 'there will be two towers on fire'
Everyone now think that that is 9/11.
So if a book or a person contains just ONE error that is proof that it's human written.
So I challenge you to find an error in the Qur'an.


What I want to say, we are discussing about the Qur'an here.
If you see something (the verse I gave about the speed of light) and you don't have an answer because it may have shocked you?
You just assume 'Well nostradamus did that too!'. Like I said he made mistakes and second his prophecies are very vague.

I will continue my posts, but let us stay on the subject.
Probably the only answer someone is going to give me about the above verse that it was coincidence.
He had a chance of 0,5% if he just guessed (I gave my calculation).
Yet I will continue giving more and more proof.

If any of you want to contact me through PM, please then do so.

Quote from: "iSok"I would like to learn why atheists think there's no God

Well, then the first thing you should learn is that they don't. Some atheists do, but the vast majority simply don't accept the claims of believers.

Quotesecond, in the very least I would like to make some of you doubt about their choice.

It isn't a choice. I don't choose to find the evidence for the existence of a deity uncompelling, it simply is uncompelling, and conspicuous by its absence.

QuoteSo let's all be open minded

In the words of Pat Condell, being called closed-minded by a theist is like being called yellow by a bunch of bananas. In any event, there's such a thing as being so open-minded that your brains fall out.

Quoteand use our common sense.

No, thanks. Common sense is a very poor guide to reality, as demonstrated beautifully by Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

QuoteThere are many arguments going to follow, and I will explain each

We'd much rather you provided evidence, rather than arguments. Unless, of course, you erroneously think that arguments are evidence?

A wikipedia link for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

The Canon of Medecine, completed by ibn Sina in 1050, was still used in the 19th century in Europe.

Professor John Urquhart:

"If the year were 1900 and you were marooned and in need of a guide for practical medicine, which book would you want by your side?" My choice was Ibn Sina. A leading reason is that Ibn Sina gives an integrated view of surgery and medicine, whereas Osler largely shuns intervention. Ibn Sina, for example, tells how to judge the margin of healthy tissue to take with an amputation, a basic topic uncovered by Osler. The gap between medicine and surgery is now closing, with the advent of interventional cardiology, gastroenterology, radiology, etc. Ibn Sina correctly saw medicine and surgery as one.

Quotehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Canon_of_Medicine

Quote from: "iSok"The Canon of Medecine, completed by ibn Sina in 1050, was still used in the 19th century in Europe.

19th century medicine SUCKED.

Still the same past tense problem though.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "iSok"The Canon of Medecine, completed by ibn Sina in 1050, was still used in the 19th century in Europe.

19th century medicine SUCKED.

Still the same past tense problem though.

Never mind the other fields of science I guess.
Can you tell me how advanced medicine was in the 19th century?
Or do you only know that it just sucked?

As for the verse about the speed of light.
No one has yet replied.
Does this mean that the divine origin of the Qur'an is around 99,5%?

I'm working on a summary of evidences, as you may call it.
I will give a 'short list' of everything, It won't be short, but I'll try my best.
And I hope people will read it. I'm sure that it the very least it'll make you think again...
Expect his in the next three weeks.

Man...overnight this thread blossomed several pages. So I'm not going back to dredge and reply. But I will say this pertaining to so-called science in the Quran; one may to find numerous debunkings of Quranic pseudo sciences.

And then there is this:

Quote from: "Isok"We regard the Qur'an as the final relevation of God towards mankind.

Quote from: "wiki"Muslims also believe that Islam is the complete and universal version of a primordial faith that was revealed at many times and places before, including through the prophets Abraham, Moses and Jesus. Muslims maintain that previous messages and revelations have been partially changed or corrupted over time, but consider the Quran to be both unaltered and the final revelation from God.

Final revelation, eh? Well, let's start waaaaaaay back at the beginning, but after the primordial soup of faith, shall we. You know, where it all started. The Tanakh is seen as presenting moral, ceremonial and civil laws. But here we deal with the Moral Laws. The moral law (most prominently the Ten Commandments) remains in full force. All of the laws are binding forever.  
Psa 119: 152: Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.  153: Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do not forget thy law. 154: Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word. 155: Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes. 156: Great are thy tender mercies, O LORD: quicken me according to thy judgments. 157: Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies. 158: I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word. 159: Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O LORD, according to thy loving kindness. 160: Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

The Law is perfect:
Psa 19:7: The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

There are mayhaps another dozen examples of this type of scripture throughout the Tanakh. But when will Christians and Muslims and Mormons start reading them? When will they consider the implications of belittling God’s Law?

Ezek 37:24: And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Ezek 36:27: And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Psa 111:7-8: The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
Exo 15:18: The LORD shall reign for ever and ever
Psa 10:16: The LORD is King for ever and ever...

Christians want to keep saying over and over and over again that the bible is the word of God. Muslims say the Quran is the word of God. That's a lot of words of God. But it all started in the Tanakh. If they love this God then they should not ignore the instructions he gave to his followers long before some guy named Paul showed up with his new doctrine of faith in a human blood sacrifice. The same can be said of Islam and Mormonism.
Deut 11:1: Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, always.
Deut 6:2,5,24-25: That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged. And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Even Allah says this:
Quran, 2: 21: "O people, worship your Lord who created you and those before you and those before you. With this, you may have Taqwaa".
Quran, 16:36: "We have surely sent into every nation a messenger telling it, "Worship Allah and avoid false gods."

Notice as you read your Hebrew portions of your Bibles that it does not say "Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever until some guy named Saul comes along and talks out his ass and then later another guy named Muhammad comes along and trumps Saul/Paul and then another guy named Joe Smith comes along and then L. Ron Hubbard will appear with a new revelation called "Dianetics" which may or may not be the Lords final revelation..."

Notice that we do not read in the Hebrew Bible "And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us until further revelations exempt us from doing so".

I could go on until I get 40 pages written. But let's sit back and watch as the Christians and Muslims huff and puff their way out of Deut 4:2: Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Quote from: "Simonsimon"

Quote from: "Existentialist"Can I ask why an atheist needs to know anything about religion?

What, seriously now?

(I do wish people wouldn't keep asking that)  Yes, seriously.

Quote from: "Simonsimon"You're saying that in a discussion about religion, you don't really need to know anything about religion?

Nowhere is there prior agreement that the discussion is about religion.  The heading of the forum is "The set of beliefs, rituals, and practices founded on specific supernatural and moral claims about reality and often associated with worship of a deity" but there is nothing that requires the participants to have prior knowledge of these things.  As an atheist I may be interested in what religious people have to say, but to say that I as an atheist have to have any prior knowledge of religion is not acceptable to me.  I can question, reason with, probe and discuss religious issues with a religious believer and still participate in the conversation without any prior knowledge at all.  I find your question very dismissive.

Quote from: "Simonsimon"In other words, you don't need to know anything about the subject matter at hand because you're going to refute everything immediately anyway since you're an atheist? If that's the case, I don't understand what you're even doing here. You're not being open minded, nor are you going to take any discussion value inherent in this thread seriously. I hope you can change that.

That isn't the case.
 

Quote from: "Existentialist"I hope you don't mind if I put forward a third.  That despite all the proof you're putting forward, someone else holds a different position on the existence of God.  We shouldn't really need proof either way, if you think that what you believe is important, proof has no impact

Quote from: "Simonsimon"It's fine that we're all holding different positions on the existence of God and your last sentence is definitely correct. But you're not going into iSok's arguments much.

iSok's arguments are long and hard work and it is very difficult to see how they form a convincing basis for belief.  I rather lost the will to carry on trying when iSok's claim that the Quran describes foetal development weren't accompanied by references to the passages in the Quran specifying the location of the description.  But that was last night, this is today and I see that lots of people are quoting long passages to each other and even writing in red font.

Quote from: "iSok"Can you tell me how advanced medicine was in the 19th century?
Or do you only know that it just sucked?

Oh, it is an educated opinion. I am comparing to the medical science of today, which will probably suck in a few decades itself.

Let me see... 19th century medicine...

Treatment of viral infections was largely ineffective. Treatment of bacterial and fungal infections was sketchy at best. Precision surgery and transplantation were science fiction at best. Radiography... What radiography? Compartmentalization of medicine was (until reasonably late 19th century) basically "treat or pray". Chances of successful treatment were far slimmer than chances of serious complication due to wrong, ineffective and often dangerous treatment.. The list goes on...

So yeah, seen from today's perspective, 19th century medicine did, indeed, suck. One has to give that period of time some historical credit, but a nineteenth century doctor would probably be fired from a modern healthcare facility within minutes of encountering the first patient.

QuoteAs for the verse about the speed of light.
No one has yet replied.
Does this mean that the divine origin of the Qur'an is around 99,5%?

Must have missed that one, otherwise, I'd probably poke a hole in it...    

QuoteI'm working on a summary of evidences, as you may call it.
I will give a 'short list' of everything, It won't be short, but I'll try my best.
And I hope people will read it. I'm sure that it the very least it'll make you think again...
Expect his in the next three weeks.

Well, such lists of evidence have been debunked before... I hope you manage to include something new and unexpected.

No matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

For anyone that wants to debate these "proofs" but doesn't know where to start; the last time I actually debated a  Muslim the easiest way to debunk was to go find the quoted verse and present it in context, then explaining why it's nothing special.

I know I'm not going to really bother because I think the OP is just regurgitating stuff from memory rather than thinking about it...after all, what busy person has time to post that much?

iSok...when are your finals over and when can we expect you to not be busy?

Maybe you should start with that whitney.
Find the verses and quote them here, then we can have a reasonable debate.

Rather do that.
My finals will be over at the end of January.

QuoteNo matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

Beautiful.

Quote from: "iSok"Maybe you should start with that whitney.
Find the verses and quote them here, then we can have a reasonable debate.

I was merely commenting for those who are interested in discussing the verses.  The only reason I have even kept an eye on this thread was for moderation purposes.

QuoteMy finals will be over at the end of January.

Ok, the reason I asked is because if I think you aren't paying attention to people's responses (and I don't think your responses to those replying to your proofs are indicative of someone who is being mindful) I needed a way to determine how long to suspend your account.  So, when replying, be mindful that you need to reply fully otherwise simply wait till you have more time (or you'll be provided with having to wait till you have more time).

Quote from: "Existentialist"

Quote from: "Simonsimon"

Quote from: "Existentialist"Can I ask why an atheist needs to know anything about religion?

What, seriously now?

(I do wish people wouldn't keep asking that)  Yes, seriously.

Yeah, my bad. Allow me to explain my misinterpretation of your question. It's a lot more sophisticated than I thought it was last night. I thought that you meant that, if you're a convinced atheïst (in other words, you don't believe in god and that's final), you wouldn't need to know anything about religion because you weren't going to believe in it anyway. I now see that I was wrong :D I have however found it to be pretty hard to reason with believers who start quoting from scripture if I have no idea what quoted scripture even means and have to rely on the interpretation of others. And in order to talk about things like evil, angels, how the koran says the world came to be, or things that like iSok says that have been foretold in the Koran while only recently scientists have made formulas that describe said foretold phenomenon, it would be necessary to have some prior knowledge of these things...This knowledge doesn't have to come from religious texts, but if you have no idea what they're even talking about it's pretty hard to debunk anything.

Case in point: If I hadn't known that the Koran says it's the final revelation, I wouldn't be able to debunk Gawen's argument. Now I may just be able to: Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt' version as long as the Koran is concerned. But I'll let iSok go into that. Point is, I wouldn't have known this if I hadn't read about the Koran.

Quote from: "Existentialist"I hope you don't mind if I put forward a third.  That despite all the proof you're putting forward, someone else holds a different position on the existence of God.  We shouldn't really need proof either way, if you think that what you believe is important, proof has no impact

Quote from: "Simonsimon"It's fine that we're all holding different positions on the existence of God and your last sentence is definitely correct. But you're not going into iSok's arguments much.

iSok's arguments are long and hard work and it is very difficult to see how they form a convincing basis for belief.  I rather lost the will to carry on trying when iSok's claim that the Quran describes foetal development weren't accompanied by references to the passages in the Quran specifying the location of the description.  But that was last night, this is today and I see that lots of people are quoting long passages to each other and even writing in red font.

Yeah, a lot of people have joined in and have started pretty elaborate posts for which I'm thankful.

@Whitney, I really don't think he's ignoring posts on purpose or something. He's not flaming, preaching, or trolling as far as I'm concerned, instead he's trying to have a discussion and perhaps failing at it a bit

Quote from: "Asmodean"No matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting. If you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

Quote from: "Simonsimon"Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting.

Use "report"-button.

QuoteIf you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

You missed the point somewhere in the beginning of the statement I wrote.

I said, in different words, that it doesn't matter if the Quran is less altered than the Bible or the Torah or the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Being unaltered does not suggest better quality of information. Many a book had to have been altered with changing facts or revised for other reason.

In the world of fictitious writing though, the original story as told millenia ago may just be the most entertaining one.

So, just to re-emphasise my point, being "unaltered" does not give the Quran more factual credibility than it would give a cliché love novel. The most one can hope from such a book is a higher degree of historical correctness, yet even that is debateable.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Simonsimon"Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting.

Use "report"-button.

QuoteIf you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

You missed the point somewhere in the beginning of the statement I wrote.

I said, in different words, that it doesn't matter if the Quran is less altered than the Bible or the Torah or the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Being unaltered does not suggest better quality of information. Many a book had to have been altered with changing facts or revised for other reason.

In the world of fictitious writing though, the original story as told millenia ago may just be the most entertaining one.

So, just to re-emphasise my point, being "unaltered" does not give the Quran more factual credibility than it would give a cliché love novel. The most one can hope from such a book is a higher degree of historical correctness, yet even that is debateable.

Simply being unaltered wouldn't mean anything, I agree. I think iSok's point with that was that since the Koran (according to him) is perfect, there are no internal contradictions in it thus it has not needed to be adjusted. Which in turn means that it was written by God, not by man because man would make errors (which man has with the bible). Is that making any sense? iSok, have I paraphrased you properly?

Quote from: "Simonsimon"

Quote from: "Asmodean"No matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting. If you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

That post takes care of itself, by virtue of being a statement of fact. If you don't find value in it, don't bother with. I find such posts extremely valuable, as they are direct and to the point.

The Qu'ran is fiction.

Quote from: "Simonsimon"there are no internal contradictions in it

He is wrong. Here's a short list of contradictions (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html).

Quote from: "hackenslash"

Quote from: "Simonsimon"

Quote from: "Asmodean"No matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting. If you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

That post takes care of itself, by virtue of being a statement of fact. If you don't find value in it, don't bother with. I find such posts extremely valuable, as they are direct and to the point.

The Qu'ran is fiction.

How can you possibly know for sure that the Qu'ran is fiction? You have proof that God doesn't exist then? I think it's more like you believe in it being fiction.

Quote from: "hackenslash"

Quote from: "Simonsimon"there are no internal contradictions in it

He is wrong. Here's a short list of contradictions (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html).

Well, this would be pretty hard to debunk without having read the qu'ran itself. These seem to contradict eachother superficially, yes. They'll make a lot more sense in context I'm sure, alas...I have not read the qu'ran yet. Perhaps iSok can go through a couple of these and debunk them? I'm rather convinced it should be possible, actually. Without having read the qu'ran (yeah, I'll try not to use the Dutch spelling of the book from now on):

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/q ... ation.html (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/abrogation.html)

This abrogation seems to be about the earlier scriptures, not abrogations in the qu'ran itself, if I'm to believe the commentary here:

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=2&verse=104&to=112

QuoteThis is in response to a doubt which the Jews tried to implant in the minds of the Muslims. If both the earlier Scriptures and the Qur'an were revelations from God, why was it - they asked - that the injunctions found in the earlier Scriptures had been replaced by new ones in the Qur'an? How could the same God issue divergent injunctions? Furthermore, they expressed their amazement at the Qur'anic indictment of the Jews and Christians for having allowed part of the revelation to be forgotten and lost, pointing out that it was impossible that Divine revelation should be erased from human memory. In all this, their motive was not to know the truth but to cast doubt on the Divine origin of the Qur'an. In refutation God states that He being the Absolute Sovereign has unlimited authority both to abrogate previous injunctions and to cause people to forget the injunctions He wants them to forget. However, God ensures that whatever He abrogates or causes to be erased from people's memories is replaced by something equally or even more beneficial.

Quote from: "Simonsimon"Simply being unaltered wouldn't mean anything, I agree. I think iSok's point with that was that since the Koran (according to him) is perfect, there are no internal contradictions in it thus it has not needed to be adjusted. Which in turn means that it was written by God, not by man because man would make errors (which man has with the bible).

That point is flawed on several levels though.

Let's take a look at a "for instance":

We know humans exist. We know humans write books. We do not know if gods exist or if they do, if they write books. Safest assumption based on the standing facts (Given choices: God-written or human-written): every book on Earth was at one point or another written by humans.

Another thing is, of course, being that a good enough story, from the perspective of the reader, does not need to be adjusted. It does not speak directly or indirectly to the book's alleged divine origins.

Quote from: "hackenslash"

Quote from: "Simonsimon"there are no internal contradictions in it

He is wrong. Here's a short list of contradictions (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html).

He was drowned.    

17:102-3
    I deem thee lost, O Pharaoh. And he wished to scare them from the land, but We drowned him and those with him, all together.
28:40
    We seized him [Pharaoh] and his hosts, and abandoned them unto the sea.

43:55
    So, when they angered Us, We punished them and drowned them every one.

He was saved

10:90-92
    Pharaoh ... when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no God save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe ... But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee.

Wrong, his body was preserved for future generations as a sign. So he was drowned.
It was this guy http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/28/2805/D2COD00Z/posters/garrett-kenneth-mummy-of-merenptah-in-the-cairo-museum.jpg


Ibliss was an Angel

2:34
    And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.

7:11
    And We created you then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who make prostration.

Ibliss was an Djinn

7:12
    He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee ? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud.
    [Jinn were created from fire. (15:27)]

18:50
    And (remember) when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He was of the jinn, so he rebelled against his Lord's command.

38:76
    Thou createdst me of fire.

Ibliss is a djinn. Let me explain this.
If there's is one man and his name is Tom for example in a room full of women.
In Arabic you can say 'In the room all of the women were eating, except Tom'. This does not mean that Tom is a woman.
It's that there are no exceptions made for Tom in the Arabic language. If you are not convinced, I'll go in detail.

Slavery is Ok

2:178
    O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female.

Slavery is Not ok

2:177
    Set slaves free

Slavery is forbidden in Islam. Before Islam, women were regarded as a properties, had no right.
Slavery was a normal phenomenon. So from time to time, slavery was forbidden.
In the beginning kindness was preached towards slaves, after a while slavery was forbidden.



Heaven was first

79:27-30
    Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. And after that He spread the
earth....


Earth was first    

2:29
    He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens.

41:9-12
    Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days ... Then turned He to the heaven ... Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days ....



I think you brought some the Qur'an verses too early. One aspect of the Qur'an are it's signs. I will explain this later in more detail.
Heaven that was made first (is the universe)
The heaven that was made AFTER the creation of earth (Is our atmosphere).

(41:12) Then He made them seven heavens in two days and revealed to each heaven its law. And We adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and firmly secured it. All this is the firm plan of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

The full verse isn't even quoted.
But the Qur'an goes further and mentions that the atmosphere is for our protection.

(21:32) and We made the sky a secure canopy; and yet they turn away from these Signs.





One angel visited Mary
19: 16-19
    And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God- fearing. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

   
More than one angel visited Mary
3: 42
    And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation.
3: 45
    (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

'Our Spirit'  is the Angel Gabriel, probably the most important.
Multiple times he's adressed as the 'Holy Spirit' in the Qur'an.

Mary was visited more than once, and one of those times was by Gabriel.


Yes everyone is lead astray by Ibliss.

7 :16 He [Iblis] said: Now, because Thou hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path.

   
Only non-muslims.

15:39-40
    I [Iblis] verily shall adorn the path of error for them in the earth, and shall mislead them every one, Save such of them as are Thy perfectly devoted slaves.

38:82-83
    Then, by Thy might, I [Iblis] surely will beguile them every one, Save Thy single-minded slaves among them.

And this one isn't even an contradiction....



Do I need to continue?

Quote from: "Simonsimon"How can you possibly know for sure that the Qu'ran is fiction? You have proof that God doesn't exist then?

I have a clear reason for understanding that this particular celestial peeping-tom doesn't exist, namely a logically self-defeating attribute, in the form of omnipotence. He's also supposed to be omniscient which, when coupled with the already impossible omnipotence, is also rendered logically absurd. So yes, I can state with supreme confidence that the fuckwit described in the Qu'ran does not exist, and that the book itself is, therefore, fiction.

QuoteI think it's more like you believe in it being fiction.

Belief is entirely without utility. I leave that for the credulous.

Quote from: "hackenslash"

Quote from: "Simonsimon"How can you possibly know for sure that the Qu'ran is fiction? You have proof that God doesn't exist then?

I have a clear reason for understanding that this particular celestial peeping-tom doesn't exist, namely a logically self-defeating attribute, in the form of omnipotence. He's also supposed to be omniscient which, when coupled with the already impossible omnipotence, is also rendered logically absurd. So yes, I can state with supreme confidence that the fuckwit described in the Qu'ran does not exist, and that the book itself is, therefore, fiction.

QuoteI think it's more like you believe in it being fiction.

Belief is entirely without utility. I leave that for the credulous.

Why would a omnipotent and omniescient God be impossible? I'm not entirely sure I understand your reasons.

Oh please...

Quote from: "simonsimon"Case in point: If I hadn't known that the Koran says it's the final revelation, I wouldn't be able to debunk Gawen's argument. Now I may just be able to: Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt' version as long as the Koran is concerned. But I'll let iSok go into that. Point is, I wouldn't have known this if I hadn't read about the Koran.

You have debunked nothing. All you have done is make an assertion that the Quran is "the final revelation". What you need to show us is why the Hebrew Bible is outdated, old and corrupt and why the Quran is right. Simply making a statement that the Quran is right is no proof whatsoever.

Quote from: "you"Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt'...

Quote from: "Asmodean"No matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

Quote from: "you"Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting. If you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

Sauce for the goose. As it happens, I am of the same mind as Asmodean. The Quran is fiction like any other religious book.

While I'm at it, do you go to the toilet like it says here, in the Islam Modern Religion website?
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/ ... quette.htm (http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/charac/essays_Bathroom_Etiquette.htm)

Quote from: "Simonsimon"alas...I have not read the qu'ran yet. Perhaps iSok can go through a couple of these and debunk them? I'm rather convinced it should be possible, actually. Without having read the qu'ran

You defend a religion without having read the handbook???

Quote from: "Gawen"

Quote from: "Simonsimon"alas...I have not read the qu'ran yet. Perhaps iSok can go through a couple of these and debunk them? I'm rather convinced it should be possible, actually. Without having read the qu'ran

You defend a religion without having read the handbook???

Why did you already deny the existence of a God without ever have read a religious book, except the Bible?

I have attempted to read the Quran, as I said in a post on page 3 of this thread, near the bottom of the page. Perhaps you missed it.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Gawen"

Quote from: "Simonsimon"alas...I have not read the qu'ran yet. Perhaps iSok can go through a couple of these and debunk them? I'm rather convinced it should be possible, actually. Without having read the qu'ran

You defend a religion without having read the handbook???

Why did you already deny the existence of a God without ever have read a religious book, except the Bible?

You are still going about this the wrong way.  You keep arguing that your holy book is a better and truer revelation from your deity without ever showing that your deity exists.

Quote from: "Gawen"Oh please...

Quote from: "simonsimon"Case in point: If I hadn't known that the Koran says it's the final revelation, I wouldn't be able to debunk Gawen's argument. Now I may just be able to: Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt' version as long as the Koran is concerned. But I'll let iSok go into that. Point is, I wouldn't have known this if I hadn't read about the Koran.

You have debunked nothing. All you have done is make an assertion that the Quran is "the final revelation". What you need to show us is why the Hebrew Bible is outdated, old and corrupt and why the Quran is right. Simply making a statement that the Quran is right is no proof whatsoever.

Quote from: "you"Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt'...

Quote from: "Asmodean"No matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

Quote from: "you"Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting. If you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

Sauce for the goose. As it happens, I am of the same mind as Asmodean. The Quran is fiction like any other religious book.

While I'm at it, do you go to the toilet like it says here, in the Islam Modern Religion website?
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/ ... quette.htm (http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/charac/essays_Bathroom_Etiquette.htm)

I'm really dissapointed, I thought this was a forum where we could debate in reason.

Maybe I made some mistakes too during this debate.
But I'm only one, and sometimes I maybe answered in a wrong way.

Gawen, you claim that the Qur'an is a fictional book without ever have read it.
No matter what logic you use, no matter what your view of life is, claiming the above is just pure ignorance.

You link all sort of vague websites, who claim that the Qur'an has contradictions. I posted arguments against it. Which are proven wrong.
Yet you do not reply and just move on to the next subject.

Whenever I ask you something, you just ignore the question and start quoting things which have no relevance.
I said before that we as Muslims view the bible corrupt. And yet what do you do?
Coming with a post full of lovely quotes about the Bible. What does that say about you?

I thought atheists were people of intellect and would have profound questions.
But the only thing I see Gawen, is just lack of knowledge and ignorance.

While we are at it..
You post bathroom etiquettes about Islamic principles?

What does that have to do with this debate of proving God?
You know Nothing, and yet you have already concluded Everything.

I'm sorry, but I had to say this.

Quote from: "Velma"You are still going about this the wrong way.  You keep arguing that your holy book is a better and truer revelation from your deity without ever showing that your deity exists.

I explained this before.
By proving that the Qur'an is divine, that means that the author is divine too.
There are ways with reason, but reasons are always debatable.
I came here to show you 100% proof.
You've been searching for YEARS (what you said earlier), and not ever have you read the Qur'an.
And you are a profound atheist?


Give me your adress, I'll call Him.
So we can make an appointment, just for you, He will teleport in front of your house.
So that then you may believe.

Quote from: "Gawen"Oh please...

Quote from: "simonsimon"Case in point: If I hadn't known that the Koran says it's the final revelation, I wouldn't be able to debunk Gawen's argument. Now I may just be able to: Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt' version as long as the Koran is concerned. But I'll let iSok go into that. Point is, I wouldn't have known this if I hadn't read about the Koran.

You have debunked nothing. All you have done is make an assertion that the Quran is "the final revelation". What you need to show us is why the Hebrew Bible is outdated, old and corrupt and why the Quran is right. Simply making a statement that the Quran is right is no proof whatsoever.

Quote from: "you"Whatever the Hebrew Bible says about this is irrelevant, because the Koran has stated it's the final revelation, in other words, the Hebrew Bible is outdated, an old, 'corrupt'...

Quote from: "Asmodean"No matter how unaltered your book might be, it's still the same fiction as the other books.

Quote from: "you"Whitney, I'd appreciate it if you would take care of posts like these. Really, I can't find anything of discussion value in this posting. If you're already convinced it's fiction anyway, what are you doing in this thread...?

Sauce for the goose. As it happens, I am of the same mind as Asmodean. The Quran is fiction like any other religious book.

While I'm at it, do you go to the toilet like it says here, in the Islam Modern Religion website?
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/ ... quette.htm (http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/charac/essays_Bathroom_Etiquette.htm)

I'm not a muslim nor am I really trying to defend the Islam. Only trying to learn both muslim and non-muslim viewpoints here which is why I sometimes attempt to defend islamic viewpoints or question your views. No need to get dismissive or offensive.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "Velma"You are still going about this the wrong way.  You keep arguing that your holy book is a better and truer revelation from your deity without ever showing that your deity exists.

I explained this before.
By proving that the Qur'an is divine, that means that the author is divine too.
There are ways with reason, but reasons are always debatable.
I came here to show you 100% proof.
You've been searching for YEARS (what you said earlier), and not ever have you read the Qur'an.
And you are a profound atheist?


Give me your adress, I'll call Him.
So we can make an appointment, just for you, He will teleport in front of your house.
So that then you may believe.

From what I've seen and heard from other muslims on other forums, islam's arguments for the existence of god and the divinity of their holy book have no more evidence than any other religion's arguments and in many cases are the same.  Unless you have more than quotes from the quran or blocks of text from muslim theology, I don't see the reason to give up more years of my life researching claims already shown to be without evidence.

Quote from: "iSok"Gawen, you claim that the Qur'an is a fictional book without ever have read it.
No matter what logic you use, no matter what your view of life is, claiming the above is just pure ignorance.


But the only thing I see Gawen, is just lack of knowledge and ignorance.

While we are at it..
You post bathroom etiquettes about Islamic principles?

What does that have to do with this debate of proving God?
You know Nothing, and yet you have already concluded Everything.

I'm sorry, but I had to say this.

You simply cannot see the irony in all this, can you?
Would you be perhaps Sunni? Take, for several examples from Sahih al-Bukhari, a compilation of Muhammad sayings:

Satan lives in your nose: Volume 4 Number 516
Adam was 90 feet tall and spoke Arabic: Volume 4 Number 543
Evil eyes are a fact: Volume 7 Number 636
Love Muhammad more than anyone else: Volume 1 Number 14
More women in Hell than men: Volume 1 Number 28
Solar eclipses are signs from God to scare believers: Volume 2 Number 167
Camels and wolves speak: Volume 3 Number 517

I have many more.

Now, I do not need to read the Quran in whole when I can google as much of it as I wish to read. And when I read crap like the above, I can only conclude that Muhammad was an ignorant by today's standards. He is steeped in superstition. He utters assertions and doesn't prove them. I also conclude that Islam is stuck in the 600's and showing no inclination of coming into the 21'st Century. And many Muslims would claim that Islam is a MODERN religion? This is enlightenment? From a guy who is said to have uttered the above?

So please excuse me as I need to use the toilet. Was that right foot first? Or left? WWMD?

You have shown an inability to debate with reason, a lack of critical thinking. I'm done here.

First of all, what you summed is not from the Qur'an.

QuoteSatan lives in your nose: Volume 4 Number 516

The prophet was known for blowing his nose in the morning.
To avoid infectional disease, he told his companions to do the same.
Satan is not always a person, but it also symbolizes for example diseases.

QuoteAdam was 90 feet tall and spoke Arabic: Volume 4 Number 543

Fair enough

QuoteEvil eyes are a fact: Volume 7 Number 636

Some hadith's are sahih, some are not. but you probably do not know?

QuoteLove Muhammad more than anyone else: Volume 1 Number 14

See above.

QuoteMore women in Hell than men: Volume 1 Number 28

There are also more women in Paradise than men.

QuoteSolar eclipses are signs from God to scare believers: Volume 2 Number 167

Fair enough

QuoteCamels and wolves speak: Volume 3 Number 517

Fair enough
Once again, is this from a Sahih hadith or not?

QuoteNow, I do not need to read the Quran in whole when I can google as much of it as I wish to read.

I love it when you just said that, so you are ignorant and you do use google as your prime resource for knowledge?

QuoteAnd when I read crap like the above, I can only conclude that Muhammad was an ignorant by today's standards.
He is steeped in superstition. He utters assertions and doesn't prove them.

I'm glad you said that he's not a perfect human being. We're one step closer to proofing the divine origin of the Qur'an.
He was indeed superstitious, he also thought that he could heal every disease.
The hadith's are his sayings, they are full of potions to diseases, yet the Qur'an isn't.



Muhammad (pbuh) was probably the best of mankind that have ever been here and ever will be.
I can assure you, that no person like him will walk on the surface of this planet again.

I shall quote some non-muslim scholars that have studied him

"From the very beginning that he was unique in his person and behaviors. His whole nation testified to his truthfulness and sincerity of purpose. They called him 'Al-Sadiq' - The Truthful and 'Al-Ameen' - the Trustworthy. In all his multifarious dealings with all sorts of people he was gentle, and kind, straightforward, and upright. He had sweetness and charm of his own in his talk and department, he never indulged in any kind of indecency. He stood aloof from the feuds and wrangling of his people. On the other hand, he shared the weal and woes of everyone, and was always ready to give a helping hand to the needy and the downtrodden, the helpless and the indigent. Widows and orphans, slaves and wayfarers. In such a topsy-turvy world he towered above all. He was a beacon of light in the vast ocean of darkness spreading all around.
All authorities agree in ascribing to the youth of Mahomet a modesty of department and purity of manners rare among the people of Mecca."
- SIR WILLIAM MUIR

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means and astounding results
are the criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad?
The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes.
This man Muhammad moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men.
On the basis of a Book, every letter of which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blended together peoples of every tongue and of every race..
Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Warrior, Conqueror of ideas, Restorer of rational beliefs, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. AS REGARDS ALL STANDARDS BY WHICH HUMAN GREATNESS MAY BE MEASURED, WE MAY WELL ASK, IS THERE ANY MAN GREATER THAN HE?
- LAMARTINE

"By the force of his extraordinary personality, Muhammed revolutionized life in Arabia and throughout the east. With his own hands he smashed ancient idols and established a religion dedicated to one God. He lifted women from the bondage in which desert customs held them and preached general social justice".
-James A. Michener

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation
because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which
appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the
changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to
every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my
opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the
Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to
assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed
in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much
needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith
of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of
tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of
today."
- George Bernard Shaw

"I wanted to know the best of one who holds
today's undisputed sway over the hearts of
millions of mankind....I became more than
convinced that it was not the sword that won a
place for Islam in those days in the scheme of
life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-
effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous
regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to
this friends and followers, his intrepidity, his
fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in
his own mission. These and not the sword
carried everything before them and surmounted
every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume
(of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there
was not more for me to read of the great life."

 - Mahatma Ghandi


"In all things Muhammad was profoundly
practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died,
an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God's
personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon
Muhammad is said to have announced, "An
eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish
to attribute such things to the death or birth
of a human being." "At Muhammad's own death
an attempt was made to deify him, but the man
who was to become his administrative successor
killed the hysteria with one of the noblest
speeches in religious history: "If there are any
among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is
dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives
forever."

- James. A. Michener

QuoteI also conclude that Islam is stuck in the 600's and showing no inclination of coming into the 21'st Century. And many Muslims would claim that Islam is a MODERN religion? This is enlightenment? From a guy who is said to have uttered the above?

So please excuse me as I need to use the toilet. Was that right foot first? Or left? WWMD?

You have shown an inability to debate with reason, a lack of critical thinking. I'm done here.

And here  we have you, seeing google as the portal to your knowledge.
Trying to get the worst out of Islam out because of pride and ignorance. This all is not harming me, nor is it others.
But it does harm you a lot, for you will stay  blind.



If any of you do need a good book based on the life of Muhammad (pbuh).
Then the following link will give you one.

http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Life-Based-Earliest-Sources/dp/1594771537/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1294611828&sr=8-2

You don't need to be religious to read a book like that.
That book describes his characters, his problems and hsiw ay of life.

whether we believer or not, it is an inspiration to us all.

So far, iSok, the only positive argument that you have given for the divinity of your holy book and the existence of your god that we have not debunked yet is that it supposedly predicted the speed of light, right?

Article. (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina80229.htm)
And even if your claim was true, it can be chalked up to coincidence. I think I've already said in this thread that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (a quote from Carl Sagan). That is not extraordinary evidence.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"So far, iSok, the only positive argument that you have given for the divinity of your holy book and the existence of your god that we have not debunked yet is that it supposedly predicted the speed of light, right?

Article. (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina80229.htm)
And even if your claim was true, it can be chalked up to coincidence. I think I've already said in this thread that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (a quote from Carl Sagan). That is not extraordinary evidence.

I certainly think it does count as a evidence, it can't be mere coincidence.
About your article...The author of that website is Ali Sina, an iranian.
I saw another supposed 'contradiction in the Qur'an', so I started studying it.
And I found out he made a lot of deliberate mistakes in his article regarding translation. I e-mailed him about it
and asked him to explain. So far, I never got an e-mail back. 'Faithfreedom' is not really a reliabele source.
If you think it is, then you are free to do so.

Most people who are not anti-Islam, just say it's coincidence.

Anyway, let me give a summary.



First of all, let me repeat this argument.
There’s a verse in the Qur’an that says this.

"By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."[Qur'an 70:4]

What this verse says is that Angels (beings of light, the Spirit is the ArchAngel Gabriel) ascend to Him in one day, and that day’s duration is fifty thousand years. To a mere man this makes no sense. The Qur’an is full of signs like these.

Einstein’s theory of relativity states that when two different objects travel at a different speed, they will experience time in a different way. For our  current topspeed (spaceshuttle) which we achieved, this difference is neglectable. But not for extreme high speeds.

The Lorentz equation helps, to determine the difference.

t’ = (1-v2/c2)-1/2 (t-vx/c2)

where v = speed traveled
c = the speed of light (5.88 x 1012 miles/year)
x = position in space (defined by the equation x2 = c2t2)
t’ and t (single day = 2.7397 x 10-3 years and 50.000 years) are the two different time perspectives.


If you put these values in the formule  (which are stated in the verse), you get the speed of what Angels travel. Do you know what that speed is?
It’s exactly the speed of light. Some say it could be a mere guess.
The author just came up with 1 day and 50.000 years. Even though that chance is very low, as you will all agree. The amazing part is, is the way it’s written.
 It’s not written: ‘Angels travel 50.000 times faster than humans’.  It’s written that they perceive a difference in time. Even today, intellectual who have never heard about the theory of relativity, will not understand this at all.
But a mere man somewhere in the desert came up with this?
How big are the odds? Really think about it…….just this one verse.



Here are further verses.

Qur’an on the fact that all matter came from one point and after it, it was parted. And that water is essential for life on our planet. (Something which we all agree upon)

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (The Qur'an, 21:30)

After the Big Bang, gas particles came together and formed high density matter.
Which is the cause of planets and stars. The Qur’an about this.

"Then He rose over (Istawâ) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: “Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.” They both said: “We come willingly." (Surat Fussilat (They are explained in detail):11).

The vastness of space and the ever expansion of space (The expansion was discovered by Hubble in 1920 I think)

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." (The Qur'an, 51:47)


Qur’an on the fact that eventually this universe will seize to exist and up in a Black hole.
Especially take a look at the part ‘roll up like a scroll’. When time and space will be ‘rolled up’.
And a new universe will emerge, where creation will begin again.

"And (remember) the Day when We shall roll up the heaven like a scroll rolled up for books, As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it, (it is) a promise binding upon Us. Truly, We shall do it." (Quran 21:104)

The fact that Iron could not be made in our Solar system, since temperatures weren’t high enough. So it was sent down from outer space.
And today we see the benefits of Iron. Without Iron, it would be very hard to build skyscrapers, tunnels, bridges etc....


"…And We sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind...." (The Qur'an, 57:25)


This verse, when it was revelated, people couldn’t believe it. Most of of them were shocked that there could be life also in outer space. So instead of that they just didn’t understand it.
They rather did not talk about it, because it could lead to doubts. Read it.
Once again, Heavens = universe in this verse.

(42:29) And of His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the living creatures that He has spread out in them. He has the power to bring them together when He so wills.


I hope these verses will make you think. Once again, they are not meant for preaching.
I think these verses will support my claims, since I explained them carefully. There are many verses like this, I didn’t quote them all.

The Qur’an is not just divine because of these verses. If we use our common sense and use our reason. Then how big is the chance that this all, just these couples of verses were made up?
The verse with the speed of light, that it was a chance..well that chance was certainly less than 1%.
Rather 0 in my opinion. And yet the Qur’an continues these verses. (I'll post more soon)


There are people on the internet (non muslims), they also understand by now that the Qur’an can’t be written by mankind. They blame aliens. Aliens wrote the Qur’an.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread545618/pg1
Just some food for your thoughts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, there is also a debate on youtube, in case you are interested.

Islam vs Atheism.

Hamza Andreas Tzortzis (Muslim convert)
Dr. Ed Buckner (President of the American Atheists)

here's the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI9owlpOQl0

Once again, you're discounting the entire article because of its author. That's not how you win debates.

As for the rest of scriptures you posted, as I've said like, three times already, you're just taking vague statements and twisting them to be simplistic statements about the universe that we now know because of modern science.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Once again, you're discounting the entire article because of its author. That's not how you win debates.

As for the rest of scriptures you posted, as I've said like, three times already, you're just taking vague statements and twisting them to be simplistic statements about the universe that we now know because of modern science.

No doubt that Ali Sina is prejudiced towards Islam. I read some articles of him.
He's only fooling himself.

About the verses, I think they are as clear as can be.

'Joined  - one Core  - Universe  - Expanding', I really can't see another interpretation.

iSok,

your response to the Koran contradictions was next to impossible to read; if you can't take the time to format your posts in a coherent manner don't expect anyone to understand what you are saying even if you had anything of value to present.

Quote from: "iSok"Give me your adress, I'll call Him.
So we can make an appointment, just for you, He will teleport in front of your house.
So that then you may believe.

A real personal god would not need some person to tell him where another lives and would have already made that personal visit if said god existed.

Simonsimon,

The answer to your question is no...I'm not going to take action on comments that do add to the discussion.  Please read the full context of comments before accusing someone of dragging down the discussion....if you can even call this a discussion considering I'm still not convinced the OP is interested in truly discussing since he isn't taking the time to write responses coherently (or perhaps is unable, in which case an English based board is not the place for him).

Quote from: "iSok"I hope you have a bit of knowledge of physics, otherwise I'm willing to explain.


"By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."[Qur'an 70:4]

Angels are made of light.

The lorentz transformations, I hope you understand a bit of physics.

t’ = (1-v2/c2)-1/2 (t-vx/c2)

where  v = speed traveled
c = the speed of light (5.88 x 1012 miles/year)
x = position in space (defined by the equation x2 = c2t2)
t’ and t (single day = 2.7397 x 10-3 years and 50.000 years)  are the two differing time perspectives.

Do you know what the answer will be for v (traveled speed by object) if you use those values for t' and t ?
yes indeed, the speed of light. Coincidence?

What that means is that two observers moving at different speeds will perceive time, size, and mass to be different. At speeds such as those traveled by humans in the present age, such differences are negligible.
Not when you travel at the speed of light.

The Prophet was actually illiterate, most people think he wrote the Qur'an.

Hello and welcome to HAF, iSok.  It's a pleasure to have a follower of Muhammad such as yourself stop by to discuss things here.  The above was one of the first pieces of evidence which you presented, and when I began working on this post I didn't think that it had been properly addressed.  Still, I want to specifically look at this evidence, and deal with it directly.  The article posted by LegendarySandwich was good, but there's nothing like the personal touch, I think.

Does not the Quran say that it is an unequivocal message, which can be clearly understood by all?  If so, then understanding the Lorentz transformations (which I'm sure you will agree, are understood by only a very small percentage of the population) should not be required to appreciate this passage.  However by all means let's look at this ayat (is that the correct term?) in light of the Lorenz transformations:

Quote"By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."

Let's do a little math:

v = c×sqrt (1-1/(50000×12×27.321661)^2) = .9999999999999981×c

So it appears that the Quran has more or less accurately predicted the speed of light.  This seems astonishing.  However, what if a different number for the "duration of the Day" is given.  An example might be 100,000.  Do you know what happens when that number is used instead of 50,000?  I'll bet you do.  It makes the result even closer to the actual speed of light. How about 1,000,000?  Amazing.  The prediction is even more accurate than before!  (And so on.)

Now let's go in the other direction shall we? Let's say that the Quran had said that the "duration of the day" had been a much more modest 1 year.  

v = c×sqrt (1-1/(1×12×27.321661)^2) = .999995348×c

Still amazingly accurate for somebody living in the 7th century, I'd say.  In other words, you can plug in any number between 1 and an arbitrarily large number, and your "prediction" will be "amazingly accurate."  What you've done is chosen a particular wording which was originally intended to show a supernatural quality of angels and  plugged a modern equation into it.  The problem is that "50,000" isn't much more astonishing that "1" , and is less astonishing than 1,000,000.  If this was evidence from Allah wouldn't you think that he would have wanted more accuracy, not less?  If he wanted to prove something to the modern infidel, you would think that he would have inspired his prophet to say that the, "duration of the day is 100,000 years" or some even larger number which would show the miraculous proof that the Quran predicted modern science even better than "50,000 years."

This really doesn't look like evidence to me.  It looks like some Muslim scholar had too much time on his hands and decided to glorify Allah by producing a dubious and very equivocal "proof" of the Quran's miraculous predictions of modern science.

(Thanks to "red25" at speed-light.info/forum (http://www.speed-light.info/forum/index.php?sid=3ada08bcd2b6da2a500bec9dd103fa0b).)

EDIT: For spelling

Quote from: "iSok""By which the angels and the Spirit, ascend to Him in one Day the duration of which is fifty thousand years."[Qur'an 70:4]

What this verse says is that Angels (beings of light, the Spirit is the ArchAngel Gabriel) ascend to Him in one day, and that day’s duration is fifty thousand years. To a mere man this makes no sense. The Qur’an is full of signs like these.

Before we go on, explain how this verse describes this equation: "t’ = (1-v2/c2)-1/2 (t-vx/c2)", I may have not been very good at word problems, but I'm very sure that verse says nothing about powers, division... etc. that would result in the equation you're citing. Also what does that equation have anything to do with other than the verse you're citing?

It appears to me that this equation was made specifically to be used as evidence that this verse says that angels travel at the speed of light. The reason for this appearance is because as I stated before, this equation's only purpose is to show that this one verse is evidence of the Qur'an knowing the speed of light. Would it not have been easier for the verse to say that angel's travel at 299,792,458 metres per second? Then you wouldn't have to make up an equation to prove your point and the odds that it actually does show that some dude long ago understood the speed of light would be inarguable because it's specifically saying what the speed of light is... except of course for the chance of blind luck.

Quote from: "iSok"Qur’an on the fact that all matter came from one point and after it, it was parted. And that water is essential for life on our planet. (Something which we all agree upon)

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" (The Qur'an, 21:30)

It said the heavens and the earth we're joined together as one, how are we to know what the dude meant with the word "heavens", for all we know he could have meant the sky and some pretty clouds. The second part doesn't say that water is essential for life, it clearly states that everything was made from water... and as far as I know of the elements and evolution, we weren't made from water.

Quote from: "iSok"After the Big Bang, gas particles came together and formed high density matter.
Which is the cause of planets and stars. The Qur’an about this.

"Then He rose over (Istawâ) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: “Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.” They both said: “We come willingly." (Surat Fussilat (They are explained in detail):11).

Could you show the context this verse has when in between other verses? What I normally see is that someone will claim a verse means X when it clearly doesn't while between the verses it is between. So do the previous verses to this show that this verse happens after the big bang or is this verse some random thing that you're just claiming explains what happened after the big bang.

Secondly I can see the stretch from smoke to gas, however the thing is clearly speaking to the Earth... when the heavens were smoke... which would indicate that the Earth was formed before the heavens were formed, which is very much at odds with what was right after the big bang.

Quote from: "iSok"The vastness of space and the ever expansion of space (The expansion was discovered by Hubble in 1920 I think)

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." (The Qur'an, 51:47)

Is this implying that heaven is space? So you believe that when you die you go into space? I'll give that this one vaguely explains the expansion of the universe.

Quote from: "iSok"Qur’an on the fact that eventually this universe will seize to exist and up in a Black hole.
Especially take a look at the part ‘roll up like a scroll’. When time and space will be ‘rolled up’.
And a new universe will emerge, where creation will begin again.

"And (remember) the Day when We shall roll up the heaven like a scroll rolled up for books, As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it, (it is) a promise binding upon Us. Truly, We shall do it." (Quran 21:104)

For one, this is not a known fact and contradicts the previously quoted verse about universal expansion. Then it doesn't even explain anything about a black hole, it talks about rolling the universe up like a scroll... which is not the behavior of a black hole, even metaphorically.

Quote from: "iSok"The fact that Iron could not be made in our Solar system, since temperatures weren’t high enough. So it was sent down from outer space.
And today we see the benefits of Iron. Without Iron, it would be very hard to build skyscrapers, tunnels, bridges etc....


"…And We sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind...." (The Qur'an, 57:25)

This verse doesn't explain the "fact that Iron could not be made in our Solar system, since temperatures weren’t high enough. So it was sent down from outer space." It says that some thing sent down iron, doesn't say from where, doesn't say it was just the element and not what one would find in the ground as ore, doesn't mention that heavy elements had to be forged in stars that exploded in order for us to have iron... in fact that verse explains almost nothing of what you explained it did.

Quote from: "iSok"This verse, when it was revelated, people couldn’t believe it. Most of of them were shocked that there could be life also in outer space. So instead of that they just didn’t understand it.
They rather did not talk about it, because it could lead to doubts. Read it.
Once again, Heavens = universe in this verse.

(42:29) And of His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the living creatures that He has spread out in them. He has the power to bring them together when He so wills.

What precedence do you have for saying that heavens = universe? Why does not heavens = sky? It also doesn't say that life existed in outer space, just that life was spread out on Earth and most probably the sky.

Quote from: "iSok"I hope these verses will make you think. Once again, they are not meant for preaching.
I think these verses will support my claims, since I explained them carefully. There are many verses like this, I didn’t quote them all.

Quote from: "iSok"The Qur’an is not just divine because of these verses. If we use our common sense and use our reason. Then how big is the chance that this all, just these couples of verses were made up?
The verse with the speed of light, that it was a chance..well that chance was certainly less than 1%.
Rather 0 in my opinion. And yet the Qur’an continues these verses. (I'll post more soon)

Star Trek had small portable talking devices, does that mean that Star Trek is divine because we now have cell phones? Star Trek had clones before we could clone anything, does that make Star Trek divine?  There are many more things in Star Trek (automatic doors) that did not exist until long after the series was canceled, given your reasoning, that would mean that you must accept the divinity of Star Trek.

Quote from: "Davin"Star Trek had small portable talking devices, does that mean that Star Trek is divine because we now have cell phones? Star Trek had clones before we could clone anything, does that make Star Trek divine?  There are many more things in Star Trek (automatic doors) that did not exist until long after the series was canceled, given your reasoning, that would mean that you must accept the divinity of Star Trek.

I'm ok with accepting the great Gene Roddenberry as a true prophet. More things he predicted have come true than anything from vague books written by people in the middle east. Still waiting for my warp drive and transporters.

Quote from: "DJAkuma"

Quote from: "Davin"Star Trek had small portable talking devices, does that mean that Star Trek is divine because we now have cell phones? Star Trek had clones before we could clone anything, does that make Star Trek divine?  There are many more things in Star Trek (automatic doors) that did not exist until long after the series was canceled, given your reasoning, that would mean that you must accept the divinity of Star Trek.

I'm ok with accepting the great Gene Roddenberry as a true prophet. More things he predicted have come true than anything from vague books written by people in the middle east. Still waiting for my warp drive and transporters.

LMAO...............  This is just totally awesome.  Still waiting on the replicators myself

Ok, ya'll can go back to 'discussing'.....  I just had to  

Quote from: "KDbeads"

Quote from: "DJAkuma"

Quote from: "Davin"Star Trek had small portable talking devices, does that mean that Star Trek is divine because we now have cell phones? Star Trek had clones before we could clone anything, does that make Star Trek divine?  There are many more things in Star Trek (automatic doors) that did not exist until long after the series was canceled, given your reasoning, that would mean that you must accept the divinity of Star Trek.

I'm ok with accepting the great Gene Roddenberry as a true prophet. More things he predicted have come true than anything from vague books written by people in the middle east. Still waiting for my warp drive and transporters.

LMAO...............  This is just totally awesome.  Still waiting on the replicators myself

Ok, ya'll can go back to 'discussing'.....  I just had to  

You should see the cult of Scott Bakula at the local scifi conventions "His career died for your sins"

Quote from: "DJAkuma"You should see the cult of Scott Bakula at the local scifi conventions "His career died for your sins"

giggle...........  

Quote from: "KDbeads"

Quote from: "DJAkuma"You should see the cult of Scott Bakula at the local scifi conventions "His career died for your sins"

giggle...........  

They're kinda weird with their life-size cardboard cutout of their savior with blinking red lights in the eyes but the jello shots are nice.

Quote from: "Sophus"Noting the perversity of this argument would seem to be a relevant point if you are acknowledging Islam had its own evolution, ergo is invalid, why then, do you either not recognize this is true of many old religions, including your own? Or why should one prove to be an exception to the rule? If the latter is the case, how would we know Islam isn't capable of being valid?

With the assertion that Islam is the newest revelation so therefore it must be right I'd say then that it can't be since the book of mormon is newer still and makes the same claim that it is true and the other ones are incorrect. At least until someone else needs money and writes a new revelation that declares itself to be the true one. It's really too bad that the people who believe that stuff don't even realize they're falling for the same thing over and over.

Quote from: "Simonsimon"Why would a omnipotent and omniescient God be impossible? I'm not entirely sure I understand your reasons.

Seriously? OK, then. I'll walk you through the baby steps, but this is logic 101.

Can this omnipotent deity build a stack of bricks so heavy that even he can't lift it?

If he can, then he can't lift it and he isn't omnipotent. If he can't then he isn't omnipotent. The usual retort of the credulous here is to cite that he can only do what is logically possible, but that doesn't provide a get-out clause, because a) it places a limit on god's power, therefore he isn't omnipotent, and b) this constitutes something that god cannot do but that I can, meaning that I have a power that the deity does not, so he isn't omnipotent.

When taken together with omniscience, the questions is rendered 'can this magic man do something that he didn't know he'd do?'

If he can, then he isn't omniscient. If he can't, then he isn't omnipotent. The two attributes are mutually exclusive, and obviously the product of a human mind, and one not very good at thinking, to boot.

Now, your friend can cite all the vague wibble from the Qu'ran he likes, along with his explanations of what was meant by them. The fallacy in play here is the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. I'm sure you can work out why it has that particular name.

So yes, the deity does not exist, and the Qu'ran is fiction. I can say this without ambiguity or fear of misunderstanding. In fact, I'll go one further. I'll state categorically, here and now, that NONE of the deities that have ever been presented by the credulous or the dim of wit enjoy existence, because they're all similarly impossible, having also been given mutually exclusive or logically absurd attributes. Whatever deity may or may not exist, it's not any of the ones we've heard of.

Quote from: "hackenslash"If he can, then he can't lift it and he isn't omnipotent. If he can't then he isn't omnipotent. The usual retort of the credulous here is to cite that he can only do what is logically possible, but that doesn't provide a get-out clause, because a) it places a limit on god's power, therefore he isn't omnipotent, and b) this constitutes something that god cannot do but that I can, meaning that I have a power that the deity does not, so he isn't omnipotent.

Saying that God is limited by what is logically possible is pretty ridiculous. I mean, God created logic. Why would he then limit himself with it?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "hackenslash"If he can, then he can't lift it and he isn't omnipotent. If he can't then he isn't omnipotent. The usual retort of the credulous here is to cite that he can only do what is logically possible, but that doesn't provide a get-out clause, because a) it places a limit on god's power, therefore he isn't omnipotent, and b) this constitutes something that god cannot do but that I can, meaning that I have a power that the deity does not, so he isn't omnipotent.

Saying that God is limited by what is logically possible is pretty ridiculous. I mean, God created logic. Why would he then limit himself with it?

Any deity that would make rules that he is not willing to follow himself probably isn't worth being worshiped in the first place.

Quote from: "DJAkuma"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "hackenslash"If he can, then he can't lift it and he isn't omnipotent. If he can't then he isn't omnipotent. The usual retort of the credulous here is to cite that he can only do what is logically possible, but that doesn't provide a get-out clause, because a) it places a limit on god's power, therefore he isn't omnipotent, and b) this constitutes something that god cannot do but that I can, meaning that I have a power that the deity does not, so he isn't omnipotent.

Saying that God is limited by what is logically possible is pretty ridiculous. I mean, God created logic. Why would he then limit himself with it?

Any deity that would make rules that he is not willing to follow himself probably isn't worth being worshiped in the first place.

Why? Why would a deity force himself to follow logic? I mean, I understand limiting himself to logic when interacting with us in our universe; but he "cannot do what is logically impossible"? How does that make any sense? How could he not be able to, if he made it?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Why? Why would a deity force himself to follow logic? I mean, I understand limiting himself to logic when interacting with us in our universe; but he "cannot do what is logically impossible"? How does that make any sense? How could he not be able to, if he made it?

I see what you mean, I was mostly pointing out that a god that refuses to follow the rules he put in place is being a dick and a hypocrite, like a cop who breaks ten traffic laws on the way to get donuts.

Quote from: "iSok"Why did you already deny the existence of a God without ever have read a religious book, except the Bible?

Why do you think there are truths about the existence of gods in religious books?

I have not seen, touched or read the Book of the Dead, but I'm pretty sure Anubis does not exist... Even though it would be cool if he did. Why do I not have to have read the book to deny Anubis..? Because beyond a pre-scientific method wall carvings, nothing can substantiate his existence. I have no urge to fill the gaps in my knowledge with Anubis nor to explain my existence beyond this life with him. The same applies to every deity ever described to me, even those whos books I've read.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "iSok"Why did you already deny the existence of a God without ever have read a religious book, except the Bible?

Why do you think there are truths about the existence of gods in religious books?

I have not seen, touched or read the Book of the Dead, but I'm pretty sure Anubis does not exist... Even though it would be cool if he did. Why do I not have to have read the book to deny Anubis..? Because beyond a pre-scientific method wall carvings, nothing can substantiate his existence. I have no urge to fill the gaps in my knowledge with Anubis nor to explain my existence beyond this life with him. The same applies to every deity ever described to me, even those whos books I've read.

At least the egyptians had pictures... how come there's tons of contemporary sculptures of romans and egyptians but none of jesus or anyone who knew him? I guess when the romans were persecuting christians they got rid of ever single sculpture but somehow couldn't get rid of their writings too. Maybe they should have hid a few in the cave with the dead sea scrolls.

Thanks for all your replies.

Davin put out some interesting points.
However, my finals are starting in a week.
So this is probably my last post now.

I'll try posting again in a day or 10.

with kind regards,
iSoK

Good luck in your finals. See you later!

Perhaps, after this exchange, you may come back with a more open mind.

Quote from: "Achronos"All manmade religions are the same in that they are unable to lead men to God.

I do think this is the first thing I've read from you that I agree with.

Of course, your manmade religion is included in this statement... Right?

you people should stop hijacking my topic till I come back

Quote from: "iSok"you people should stop hijacking my topic till I come back :D

Achronos' derail split to his new ego thread:  viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6601 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6601)

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "iSok"you people should stop hijacking my topic till I come back :D

I vote that when we hijack it we move it toward something more star trek oriented, or maybe we can talk about crayons and why they all taste the same and not like the colors they represent.

Quote from: "DJAkuma"

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "iSok"you people should stop hijacking my topic till I come back :D

I vote that when we hijack it we move it toward something more star trek oriented, or maybe we can talk about crayons and why they all taste the same and not like the colors they represent.

Well, I can only make comments on crayons after they come out of my dogs butt. It's about the only experience I have had with crayons since grade 3.