Happy Atheist Forum

DADT is gone. Now we have to worry about the army considering atheists worthy as troops. They have these new "Spiritual Fitness" tests (http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/12/mandatory_us_army_survey_says.php).

Quote from: "Ed Brayton"Earlier this week, a number of religious freedom activists, bloggers, and organizations were alerted by Sgt. Justin Griffith, a soldier at Fort Bragg, NC, to a mandatory U.S. Army survey called the "Soldier Fitness Tracker." One of the areas included in this survey, which measures a soldier's fitness in a number of areas, is "spiritual" fitness. According to his survey results, Sgt. Griffith is unfit to serve.

After taking the survey, and finding out that, as a non-believer, the Army considers him unfit to serve, Sgt. Griffith sent out an email to all the organizations and individuals involved in Rock Beyond Belief, and people sprang into action. MRFF has a prominent law firm on it, and several of the bloggers among the recipients of the email immediately posted about this jaw droppingly outrageous "religious test."

I doubt this will get the kind of publicity as DADT's repeal but hopefully it won't need it. Please go away quietly Spirituality Test.

Huh.

Nope.

I don't get it.

You'd think people who hate atheists or gays would want them to go to war.

If I had to choose, I'd rather have an atheist with me in battle...

For America's sake I hope this is nipped in the bud quickly.

Quote from: "joeactor"Huh.

Nope.

I don't get it.

You'd think people who hate atheists or gays would want them to go to war.

If I had to choose, I'd rather have an atheist with me in battle...

But dem dangnabbit atheists and gays ain't fit to serve in the military!We need sum real 'Mericans to kill off those terrorists that are threatening the 'Merican way of life!

I wonder if terrorists have a spirituality check before they let you handle a belt with C4 in it...  

There would be a few Vietnam conscripts who wouldn't have minded such an exemption.
Militarists probably don't want independent thinkers on the team, they might tell Wikileaks what's going on.

I know it is bad but the first thought that crossed my mind is that now if they open the draft I won't have to worry about my husband having to go to war.

Still, it needs to be fixed due to the equal rights issues it creates.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Militarists probably don't want independent thinkers on the team, they might tell Wikileaks what's going on.

They are terrorists... I doubt they would manage to leak something the intelligence agencies do not already suspect. *Sides, if someone did leak, they'd just hafta' blow up the Internet. Problem solved, yes?  

Quote from: "joeactor"If I had to choose, I'd rather have an atheist with me in battle...

Why's that joe?

Quote from: "Stevil"Why's that joe?

(Answering for me and myself alone. Subjective experience warning)

In general, atheists I've met tend to be smarter than the religious people by a fair margin. Smarts in modern warfare is no bad thing. Additionally, an atheist is more likely to value his life some more than someone who believes some deity will give him virgins or a place on a golden street or the like after death, potentially leading to fewer unnecessary risks taken.

'Sides... I'd like someone I knew to be (near-) completely sane with me in battle and I can't be sure of that with any fundamentalist type.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Stevil"Why's that joe?

(Answering for me and myself alone. Subjective experience warning)

In general, atheists I've met tend to be smarter than the religious people by a fair margin. Smarts in modern warfare is no bad thing. Additionally, an atheist is more likely to value his life some more than someone who believes some deity will give him virgins or a place on a golden street or the like after death, potentially leading to fewer unnecessary risks taken.

'Sides... I'd like someone I knew to be (near-) completely sane with me in battle and I can't be sure of that with any fundamentalist type.

OK, I disagree with your comment or assertions that atheists are smarter, I can understand your worries about a person's sanity although there might be as many insane atheists as there are insane theists, I don't know.

Personaly I don't think that I would be too concerned if the person next to me in battle believes in a god or not.
I view soldiers as simply pawns in a deadly game, unquestioned obedience is a desired attribute and theists have that in spades. However their devotion is to a god/s and their faith, what happens if orders conflict with that?
 
I would be interested in getting Joe's theist view. I assume he would think that a theist is at least the same sane if not more sane than an atheist.

Quote from: "Stevil"OK, I disagree with your comment or assertions that atheists are smarter,

You forgot to add "in general". Otherwise, how can you disagree with a subjective experience limited to a group defined as "I've met" without having actually met that same sample group..?  

QuoteI can understand your worries about a person's sanity although there might be as many insane atheists as there are insane theists, I don't know.

What I am saying is that with an atheist, I can be far more certain of the person's mental state than with, for instance, a fundamentalist theist or a YEC

QuotePersonaly I don't think that I would be too concerned if the person next to me in battle believes in a god or not.

It's not the belief itself that worries me either. It's the effect said belief has on some people.

QuoteI view soldiers as simply pawns in a deadly game, unquestioned obedience is a desired attribute and theists have that in spades. However their devotion is to a god/s and their faith, what happens if orders conflict with that?

Indeed. Oh, and in event of war, I'd likely be a merc, so for me, blind obedience is an inferior trait to the capability of independent decision and action at need.

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Stevil"OK, I disagree with your comment or assertions that atheists are smarter,

You forgot to add "in general". Otherwise, how can you disagree with a subjective experience limited to a group defined as "I've met" without having actually met that same sample group..?  

You were extrapolating your past experiences out with regards to how in general theists and atheists would perform in war, weren't you. I couldn't comment on the people you meet so was simply commenting on how the general theists and atheists might perform in war.

Quote from: "Stevil"...unquestioned obedience is a desired attribute and theists have that in spades.

^This

This is why I despise the military. It requires unquestioned and loyal obedience. Thinking for yourself is a bad thing. If you don't agree with what you're doing, well, too bad.

This may be why there are no atheists in foxholes. I think as a whole, theists are generally more likely to place more value on authority and following orders.

I hate unquestioned obedience. I even go so far to say that it's immoral (although that's just my opinion, 'course).

Quote from: "Stevil"

Quote from: "joeactor"If I had to choose, I'd rather have an atheist with me in battle...

Why's that joe?

1) I'd rather have someone actually doing something, rather than praying for something to happen.

2) It's possible that without any type of afterlife, the desire to survive may be stronger.

3) Time spent reading the bible could have been spent at target practice (ok, maybe)

Take it with a grain of salt, as it's just my random thoughts, with no real evidence behind it...

Well, the good news is that this "spirituality test" isn't in all the services. I'm in the Air Force, and have yet to be subjected to such a test. The army is slightly retarded however. Doesn't really surprise me all that much they would include something like this in their troop evaluation procedures.

As far as SSgt whatshisname being labeled as unfit to serve goes - I'm sure its just a computer glitch.  

Quote from: "joeactor"

Quote from: "Stevil"

Quote from: "joeactor"If I had to choose, I'd rather have an atheist with me in battle...

Why's that joe?

1) I'd rather have someone actually doing something, rather than praying for something to happen.

2) It's possible that without any type of afterlife, the desire to survive may be stronger.

3) Time spent reading the bible could have been spent at target practice (ok, maybe)

Take it with a grain of salt, as it's just my random thoughts, with no real evidence behind it...

Thanks for the response Joe, i'd disagree with you, but not being a theist it is speculation on my behalf.
1. I would suggest that theists likely pray during quiet times rather than when action is required
2. I have no idea how much a theist values the current life they have on earth
3. Not likely to have been the opportunity cost, but possibly. Depends just how much time is spent reading/studying the bible, it is possible that this could be quite significant.

There are very good reasons we believers don't want atheists on the team.
Under threat of immanent death the atheist often gets uncontrollably nervous.
Me, I've had to take a few out to stop 'em causen a ruckus.
Belief gives the warrior strength, every good leader knows that.
And the belief is best not placed in those on earth,
cause they always show themselves as unworthy.
As for smarts, cat level thinken has it's uses, but mostly we want dogs.

Quote from: "RunFromMyLife"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"This may be why there are no atheists in foxholes. I think as a whole, theists are generally more likely to place more value on authority and following orders.

List of atheists in foxholes:

http://www.maaf.info/expaif.html

Those aren't true atheists. A true atheist wouldn't be in a foxhole.

Quote from: "Asmodean"In general, atheists I've met tend to be smarter than the religious people by a fair margin. Smarts in modern warfare is no bad thing. Additionally, an atheist is more likely to value his life some more than someone who believes some deity will give him virgins or a place on a golden street or the like after death, potentially leading to fewer unnecessary risks taken.

Joining a volunteer army is itself a huge unnecessary risk, so I think you're wrong on their smarts and/or the value they place on self preservation.

Quote from: "John 15:13"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Anyone that follows this thinking is the person I want next to me in a foxhole.

To me, IMHO, a true Atheist would not want to take many risks with his/her life "knowing" if they die, they are GONE with no hope.  I could be wrong.  It's just my opinion.  The Christian, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily hope for death, but "knows" his/her death is not the end.  There is hope.

I rest my case.  :)

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "John 15:13"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Anyone that follows this thinking is the person I want next to me in a foxhole.

To me, IMHO, a true Atheist would not want to take many risks with his/her life "knowing" if they die, they are GONE with no hope.  I could be wrong.  It's just my opinion.  The Christian, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily hope for death, but "knows" his/her death is not the end.  There is hope.

I rest my case.  :)

Just because a person believes in the Bible doesn't mean they follow its teachings. In fact, I would almost go as far as to say that they have barely any correlation at all.

But even if we look past that, I generally value self-preservation over the willingness to die because someone told you.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Just because a person believes in the Bible doesn't mean they follow its teachings. In fact, I would almost go as far as to say that they have barely any correlation at all.

Notice I did not say belief in the Bible...simply a text from the Bible that conveys the point.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"But even if we look past that, I generally value self-preservation over the willingness to die because someone told you.

Wouldn't this, then, make my point?  If you value self-preservation, chances are you wont take a chance and remain in the foxhole with me as ordered.  You seem to suggest you wouldn't die "because someone told you" to.  So then, I would rather a person be of the mindset that life is precious, but not the end of all.

By the sacrifice of self, the shedding of blood, you have freedom.  No?  Where would the U.S. be if everyone had the {apparent) mindset of the Atheist and of self-preservation above the good of man and country?

The whole point of going into a foxhole is to not die. The living make much better fighters than the dead, IMO.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Just because a person believes in the Bible doesn't mean they follow its teachings. In fact, I would almost go as far as to say that they have barely any correlation at all.

Notice I did not say belief in the Bible...simply a text from the Bible that conveys the point.

It seems to me that you implied it, but, eh.

QuoteWouldn't this, then, make my point?  If you value self-preservation, chances are you wont take a chance and remain in the foxhole with me as ordered.  You seem to suggest you wouldn't die "because someone told you" to.  So then, I would rather a person be of the mindset that life is precious, but not the end of all.

The fourth sentence in that paragraph seems to be a non sequitor when next to the first three.

QuoteBy the sacrifice of self, the shedding of blood, you have freedom.  No?  Where would the U.S. be if everyone had the {apparent) mindset of the Atheist and of self-preservation above the good of man and country?

I believe in fighting, and possibly dying, for causes you believe in. What I do not believe in is doing something simply because an authority figure commands you to. This is the main problem I have with all militaries.

The follower mindset does seem to be necessary, though. We can't all be leaders; or can we? Maybe we can, although it would be difficult to get enough to fight unanimously for a cause.

Quote from: "Voter"Joining a volunteer army is itself a huge unnecessary risk, so I think you're wrong on their smarts and/or the value they place on self preservation.

Depends on the individual. Some really do enter with the juvenile "yeah, we gonna shoot some fuckers dead" mentality, and others have a more mature purpose for enlisting. Some don't even really want to be there at all but join out of a lack of options to continue their education.

First off.

WHAT THE FUCK?
I never had any overt problems. When did this bullshit become ok?

Second off.

Quote from: "Voter"

Quote from: "Asmodean"In general, atheists I've met tend to be smarter than the religious people by a fair margin. Smarts in modern warfare is no bad thing. Additionally, an atheist is more likely to value his life some more than someone who believes some deity will give him virgins or a place on a golden street or the like after death, potentially leading to fewer unnecessary risks taken.

Joining a volunteer army is itself a huge unnecessary risk, so I think you're wrong on their smarts and/or the value they place on self preservation.

Hi there. Did you know you can be smart and have a strong sense of duty, or get laid off and need a job, or have no way to turn those smarts into a degree ala the G.I Bil, or just be really into military culture, or have the required degree needed to become an officer, or pick a non combat MOS (about 90% are) that translate well into a civillian job, or be seeking a top secret clearence which can get you a 6 figure salary for a job you have no qualifications for but it can take 7 years for a civillian to get same clearence, or mabye you just like being paid to blow shit up. Just saying.


*edit* Dang it. I guess I could have just said "What Sofus said." and called it a post.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"To me, IMHO, a true Atheist would not want to take many risks with his/her life "knowing" if they die, they are GONE with no hope.  I could be wrong.  It's just my opinion.  The Christian, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily hope for death, but "knows" his/her death is not the end.  There is hope.

I rest my case.  :)

You were in in the same years as I was.  What bases?  My PDS was Carswell, in Fort Worth.

This atheist risked his life regularly as an Air Force firefighter.  Now, it ain't combat, but it's pretty close, and I can say with confidence that when the shit hits the fan, you're not gonna be checking what's on the "rel pref" line on your dogtags.  You know who is trustworthy and who isn't, and faith or lackthereof doesn't come into the picture.

Also, it wasn't my experience at all that unquestioned obedience was expected or even desired, but I understand that my experience is only anecdotal.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"You were in in the same years as I was.  What bases?  My PDS was Carswell, in Fort Worth.

I was mostly at Hill AFB, UT as a 553xx, Engineering Asst.  Did a short tour at JTFB, Honduras.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"You were in in the same years as I was.  What bases?  My PDS was Carswell, in Fort Worth.

I was mostly at Hill AFB, UT as a 553xx, Engineering Asst.  Did a short tour at JTFB, Honduras.

I was on my way in as you guys were both on your way out. '93  to '97, Ground Radio Communications Specialist; Vandenberg AFB, Lompoc, CA.  

Quote from: "elliebean"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"You were in in the same years as I was.  What bases?  My PDS was Carswell, in Fort Worth.

I was mostly at Hill AFB, UT as a 553xx, Engineering Asst.  Did a short tour at JTFB, Honduras.

I was on my way in as you guys were both on your way out. '93  to '97, Ground Radio Communications Specialist; Vandenberg AFB, Lompoc, CA.  :)  In hindsight, I should've wished for overseas.

A video well worth watching (http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/2011/01/1611-mikey-weinstein-on-msnbcs-countdown-with-keith-olbermann/). Keith Olbermann bringing awareness and shedding some light on this issue.

I can't say I'm surprised to see this. The military doesn't want people to think for themselves! Why would the military want people questioning the events that led to the war or questioning why they are doing the things they are ordered to do. Legendarysandwich hit the nail on the head with his posts. I agree 100% with him.

QuoteHi there. Did you know you can be smart and have a strong sense of duty, or get laid off and need a job, or have no way to turn those smarts into a degree ala the G.I Bil, or just be really into military culture, or have the required degree needed to become an officer, or pick a non combat MOS (about 90% are) that translate well into a civillian job, or be seeking a top secret clearence which can get you a 6 figure salary for a job you have no qualifications for but it can take 7 years for a civillian to get same clearence, or mabye you just like being paid to blow shit up. Just saying.


*edit* Dang it. I guess I could have just said "What Sofus said." and called it a post.

Yeah, it's a common misperception among non-military people that everyone in the military has one of 3 jobs. They don't understand that there are different jobs within the military. All they know is: If you're in the Army, you're out in the battlefield shootin' guns; If you're in the Air Force, you're flying planes; and if you're in the Navy, you're out at sea on a boat.

I'm actually a cook in the AF...so you can imagine the crazy looks I get when non-military ppl ask me what I do in the AF if I don't fly planes. Definitely one of the least combat-neccessary jobs in the military, working in the services field...although the AF rations are pretty risky in themselves.  

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"But dem dangnabbit atheists and gays ain't fit to serve in the military!We need sum real 'Mericans to kill off those terrorists that are threatening the 'Merican way of life!

Not all religious people in the military are southern waffle house rejects.  Some of the most intelligent military members I have known were very outspoken in their religious beliefs.  Doesn't excuse the way their beliefs are so intertwined with the service.  There's a prayer "in the name of Jesus" at nearly every official ceremony.  I often wonder how the Muslims and Jews feel at those moments.  The Jew can pray to himself, but if the Muslim unrolls a carpet and gets on his knees while this is going on, there would be a riot.  I was still a Christian my last re-enlistment, but I elected to go prayer-less simply because I wasn't sure if everybody attending was Christian, and I wasn't going to ask.  Even our military laws have a little religious tone left in them, as society has long-since moved on.  Sodomy is a crime even a happily married service member could be charged with if he or she does just about anything but missionary position.  Adultery is still a crime.  I most often hear "good order and discipline" as an excuse for keeping it, but that argument doesn't hold water.  It's a long argument, so I'll leave it off here for now.  

Anyway, that this new test has spiritual fitness, and the fact that a raving mad Jihadist in suicide bomber training would score better than me, doesn't really surprise me.  Someday I hope the military gets its head on straight when it comes to social issues.  It's a department of the federal government, and the only department that openly and without shame violates church/state separation with almost no fear of recourse or consequences.

"Ah! The generals! They are numerous but not good for much!" - Aristophanes

Thinking especially, it seesms (quotes from Rome: TW FTW   )