Happy Atheist Forum

I don't know where to post this, I'm looking for some calming opinions and words so I figured philosophy is the best bet. A lot of forums can get touchy about posts not being in the correct section, so I apologise if this isn't in the section you would prefer it to be in (if any).

Erm, well, I'm 21 years old, I was born November 29th, so I have been 21 for a little less than a month.

I'm an Agnostic, I have declared myself a Christian when I was a kid, and then after I declared myself an Atheist in my teens, but since my late teens I pretty much felt like an Agnostic, I personally don't know if there is a god or not, the only things that I'm pretty sure about, are:
1, That this god is nothing that we know about.
2, And that an after life is completely inconceivable.

I think I will be blunt, the thought of death freaks me out, and has given me many a sleepless night over the past two months.
The thought of myself not existing in 5 billion years from now, whatever becomes of the earth and the human race, the thought of me not existing whilst whatever is going on freaks me out, and the concept of eternity scares me too.
I know death is natural, and our only certainty, and I know you can't experience death, because I think the mind dies with the body, but at the same time, its knowing that I will one day be like that is what freaks me out, and knowing that there is an eternity afterwards which is what freaks me out a lot, I believe its called "Apeirophobia" (fear of eternity, not of death).

I'm not looking for sympathy or looking for everybody to be nice to me and treat me like some kid who is sensitive or anything, and if I come across that way then I apologise because that's not what I am trying to do, I'm just trying to explain why I am freaked out by death
I posted something similar to this, probably a shorter version, on Yahoo! Answers, and I got treat with a lot of hostility, when I was just looking for peoples opinions and philosophy about death, and how so many Atheists and Agnostics death with that thought of death, and how it doesn't bother them.
Because, to me it seems like a bad fate, to be in oblivion, and its like being a Christian and knowing you will go to hell, and you can get on with your life, but its always at the back of my mind, telling me that I will one day die and its all over, and it puts this weird feeling in my stomach, and scares me to be honest, and its always in my mind, so as long as I never stop doing something that takes my mind off it, which is too expensive, then I will always be laying there in bed every night, staring at the ceiling, with my stomach churning over something that can happen at any time, and will happen at some point in my life, and it will be the end.
I have told myself there is nothing I can do about and and I should just live my life and enjoy, but it still wont go away, I have spoken to councillors and they tell me the same thing, they are no more qualified to help me than anybody.

I thought I would try this place because, by the title of the place I assume that this place has a pretty positive vibe and might be able to just say something that I can learn from and realize that might make me chill out a bit when it comes to death.
I know a lot of Atheists are comfortable with their fate, and  was wandering what makes you some comfortable, and what you can tell me, if anything that might change my world view, and might help me forget about death, or make me accept it?
I just want to go back to normal again, before this all started a few months ago, I just don't want to live with this fear that lurks on my shoulder like it has been doing since late September.

Thanks, if you think that something I wrote was wrong, or if there is anything here that you feel the need to confront me over, please don't just mention it and I will explain once I am less tired tomorrow morning.

Thanks again.

Why do you want to be happy with death..? Or even be ok with it..?

Granted, if you know you have a week left (for example), being ok with death is a plus. However, when you do not know how and when it will happen, why dwell on it..? Making life all about death is something religious people and certain other "spiritualists" tend to do. Death is an inevitable result of life, it is not the meaning nor purpose of it. those [philosophically and to a certain degree biologically] are yours to define for yourself.

I can see how the thought of not existing can be sad... You know, in a million years, when even my dust has turned to dust... What things will I never see..? What wonders of technology..? How many friends will I never make..? Those questions are hypothetical and the answers are utterly speculative. It may be that an immortal me would fuck up his life so badly after but 50 years that he'd forsake the immortality for a suicide at the age of 55 just as easily (and more so) than the other way.

There are far worse things than death right here in life; subjectively, of course, but I stand by that statement... So my advice: find something better to dwell on  :P

Hello IFO...

I think it's understandable that people fear death. (or at the very least the dying and/or suffering part).
The question is, does this fear prevent you from enjoying life?

If you don't mind my asking, is there some recent event or loss that has increased your fear?

Welcome to the forum - I hope you find some comfort, and maybe answers here,
JoeActor

You weren't here before and you won't be here later - so be here now.  That's all I can offer.  Be here now.  Be.  Be who you are.  Be what you stand for.  Be what you want to be.  Be brave.  Be wise.  Be alive.  Be happy.  Be here now.  Be.

Freaking, fear of death is coded in our DNA.  It isn't something you can talk yourself out of.  Without fear of death, we would take too many chances, and the species would probably die out.

All I can tell you is that for most of us, the fear diminishes over time.  Atheists and agnostics have one advantage in that we don't have to worry about whether we'll have eternal life or eternal damnation.  While for some people religion is a comfort in this area while we are healthy, as the end approaches, doubt must creep in, because the idea of ascending into heaven must seem like pie in the sky when you are faced with death and are forced to seriously think about it.  I'll bet that the terror at that point is a lot worse for most believers.

So just accept that death is scary but in your case a long time off and hardly worth worrying about at this point.

Life is a game that nobody wins. So just play and have fun.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Why do you want to be happy with death..? Or even be ok with it..?

Before it never used to bother me for some reason, I had an attitude of "I would rather die having fun at 18, than die at 80 being bored", and that was my philosophy.
I am going through the mother of all quarter life crises right now (Quarter of my life is gone already?) and I just don't want to care any more.
Its one thing knowing I'm going to die, when I had my DGAF attitude about it, it never really bothered me because even though I kinda liked life, at the same time I wasn't really bothered about myself, but now I am.
Not to mention I actually went through a suicidal patch last year.

I just want to be able to sleep properly again, I just want to be able to watch a film and see a person die without thinking "he is dead, and I will be one day, blah.." I just want to be able to chill out and relax without thinking about death.
I'm 21 and I'm a loser man, and I just want to relax and be happy, for the past two months my own mind has been irritating me!!!
ITS DRIVING ME INSANE!! I JUST WANT TO BE ABLE TO BLOCK THE FEAR OUT AND BE HAPPY!

If I'm okay with death, then I can relax, I can feel like less of a loser, I can feel happy, I can feel sleepy again, I can do the things I enjoy without being reminded of death and being able to actually enjoy them again.
Like earlier today, I can watch the film "Scrooged" at xmas with my family and not have to walk out of the room during the death scene, I JUST WANT TO GO BACK TO THE WAY THINGS WERE!!!

Quote from: "Asmodean"Granted, if you know you have a week left (for example), being ok with death is a plus. However, when you do not know how and when it will happen, why dwell on it..? Making life all about death is something religious people and certain other "spiritualists" tend to do. Death is an inevitable result of life, it is not the meaning nor purpose of it. those [philosophically and to a certain degree biologically] are yours to define for yourself.

Its probably because I'm 21, and I'm a total failure at life, like I screwed up my one shot.

Another thing is is because I was 19 for most of last year (Born Nov 29th, 1989, practically 1990), and I feel like its speeding a head of me.
I'm just constantly reminded of my mortality, and worst of all the mortality of my loved ones, and how we will all one day be watching each other die, watching my parents die, watching my sisters and my cousins die, and knowing that I will and it just scares me and makes me depressed to know that it will happen one day.

I feel like that a part of me is literally dead now, like pre-20's me is dead and gone for all eternity, and all that is left is me with the memories of his life, because its such a huge change that has happened over the past year, that I find it hard to believe that I was once that person, but I was his best friend who fully remembers his life, and its all gone.
Memories don't mean anything, they never will, and that's another thing that bothers me.

I'm already 21?, that's less than 10 years before I'm 30, and people who are 30+ are treat like crap because of their age.

Quote from: "joeactor"Hello IFO...

Hello.  :)

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"You weren't here before and you won't be here later - so be here now.  That's all I can offer.  Be here now.  Be.  Be who you are.  Be what you stand for.  Be what you want to be.  Be brave.  Be wise.  Be alive.  Be happy.  Be here now.  Be.

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"Life is a game that nobody wins. So just play and have fun.

I used to be, and I have tried giving myself these speeches a lot over the past couple of months, but they only work for a bit, I have been working on a mantra with them.

Quote from: "Wilson"Freaking, fear of death is coded in our DNA.  It isn't something you can talk yourself out of.  Without fear of death, we would take too many chances, and the species would probably die out.

But I'm probably an hour away from a nervous break down.

We all have one foot in the grave from the moment we are born. You need to live life until the moment you die, there is no choice in that. You will die, no doubts about it, I will too for that matter. You certainly don't need to worry as death is inevitable, it will just naturally happen regardless so why worry. Once you are dead you won't even know you are dead. Its the stuff between birth and death that is important, make the most of the cards that are dealt to you and put yourself in the driver's seat. Many, many people have made life changes during their life so it seems that it is never too late to change or reinvent yourself. You don't have unconstrained free will but you do have enough free reign to change and improve your life. Noticing that there is a problem is certainly the first step, actually it makes it impossible to remain constant. Just don't take on a victim mentality and instead put yourself in the drivers seat. Anyway, this is all vague, take whatever you want, disgard whatever you want. Good luck and best wishes.

It sounds like you are also freaking out because of your age.  You are only 21, you have plenty of time to start over numerous times.  I'm 47 and a half and recently started over yet again (moved, married, returned to school).  You don't just get one chance in life, you get several, but you usually have to make them yourself.

Don't be freaked out, be angry.

Death is nothing but a waste. A waste of knowledge, a waste of personality, a waste of something unique. Hate it.

So what if it's natural. Flesh eating bacteria is natural but you don't see me pining for it. Screw natural.

Unnatural is where it's at. Unnatural is cars to get you where you're going, cell phones to talk to whoever you want, televisions to entertain you, medicine to give you a good chance at more than 30 measly years. Unnatural is what makes things convenient and extends our lifetime.

For all I know, you may not have to worry about dying. Maybe it's your generation that lives to see medical technology grasp immortality by the throat and shake it until its teeth rattle.

I hope so. I hope I can see that.

I can't say I feel angry about it, just a bit sad I don't get to see how the story rolls out.
Angry is  better than a debilitating freak out though.

Dylan Thomas

QuoteDo not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

If someone had a fear of dogs, a gradual introduction to friendly dogs may help.
I wonder if activities which entail a bit of risk, but intensify life would help.  
Things that don't threaten others like bike riding, surfing, rock fishing, a challenging walk or kayaking.
Are drugs contributing to the problem?

I guess I'm not really sure what exactly it is about death that scares you. If you are frustrated by the fact that we can't see what becomes of humanity, then join the club. However, I'm not sure I want to know considering how self-destructive our society is right now. As long as I die before some sort of Apocalypse occurs, I can afford to be optimistic about it. Plus, I find it comforting to see the possible scenarios that are played out in movies and television (my favorite scenario being the peaceful and morally upright Earth from Star Trek).

I don't waste my time dreading the pain of death because I know that I can just end it quickly if necessary (I'm sure euthanasia will be completely legal by the time I am old). I also don't really have to worry about what it will be like after death because my consciousness will no longer exist and I won't have anything to think/feel about it.

I don't worry about leaving a legacy because I know I will almost certainly not be remembered after a mere 100 years anyway.

I do agree that it's a real bummer that loved ones will eventually die, but I would take comfort in the likelihood that any children you have will be with you until you die. Children would still be people that you've known for a very long time, so it is very unlikely that you will be without someone close to you once some of your loved ones die.

I'm trying not to touch on anything cliché, because I know personally that reciting a bunch of cliché reassurances just makes a person feel worse. Clichés aren't really helpful either considering the person asking probably has heard them before and didn't find what they were looking for in them.

Quote from: "Im_Freaking_OUT"Its probably because I'm 21, and I'm a total failure at life, like I screwed up my one shot.

Welcome to the club!  

Take it from someone who has spent a few more years wasting his life than you: there will be other "shots". You will find yourself on other crossroads, in different circumstances and foreign places... And on some you will take paths you will come to realize were wrong. When you do realize that, there are three major ways of dealing with it: continue on the wrong path (possibly attempt to make it right or to get used to it), try to turn tables (or yourself) OR do nothing and drift with the current.

Your "one shot" is only your last if you choose to drift with the current, and that choice is reversible.

Freak, it sounds to me like you are pretty depressed, and probably not just about death.  It might be a good idea to see a mental health professional.

"I think I will be blunt, the thought of death freaks me out, and has given me many a sleepless night over the past two months.
The thought of myself not existing in 5 billion years from now, whatever becomes of the earth and the human race, the thought of me not existing whilst whatever is going on freaks me out, and the concept of eternity scares me too."

Don't worry about it. You cannot experience non-existence. So when you die, you will not exist, and you won't feel two ways about it. That idea takes some time to get used to, if you feel so inclined to accept it. That is just my own view. If there is an existence beyond death, then great, if there isn't, then whatever. I can't feel bad about it because my limbic system will decay with my body. My prefrontal cortex will shrivel and die. The only thing that actually keeps working after death, at least for a time, is the eardrum, since it's all mechanical (the more you know).

Many better and smarter people have said something similar to this much more eloquently (but here it goes): I didn't exist for 14 billion years before I was born, and it didn't bother me one bit. Also, when you die, it is not you who will disappear, it is the world that will fade away.

What seems to drive your fears isn't what happens after the curtain closes, but the finality of it all. For that I don't really have much advice. Right now I'm in a rough spot (crap job, no money, a future that's unclear), but many others are facing that too. What I do to keep my sanity is to have some purpose, a hobby, a skill that I try to master even if it's superficially for my own amusement. For me, I write. You could try the same if you wish. Maybe try music, drawing, art, something to take your mind off your stress, to destress you, and to give you both something to look back on, and to look forward to.

“Its probably because I'm 21, and I'm a total failure at life, like I screwed up my one shot.”

You’re not a failure. You may have failed a few times, I sure have (and I’m still failing), but mistakes you learn from aren’t really big mistakes at all. You'll get many shots, many chances. I'm 23 and I feel that my life has a long way to go. There are so many goals I want to achieve, and slowly I work towards them, even if it's only baby steps.

This fear of death might actually be the "symptom" and not the "disease". Perhaps you have deeper fears and stresses? In time they should go away, and coping strategies could greatly help you. And don't be ashamed to see a counselor or something, not on this fear of death, but your current life stresses too. I was a psychology major a few years ago (I have a bachelor's in it, nothing clinical though), I saw counselors before when my life was rough. In time it all goes away. In the end, it gets better, if it isn't better, it's not the end.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Dave

Death is not to be feared in my view. Why? because even if I go into complete oblivion consciously I know there is no fear where fear is no longer applicable. There is no sadness, happiness, or even inconvenience to worry about.  But this does not mean that you can't be happy or comfortable with death because technically we will always exist in some form or another. Hence what is me becomes and emerges into something else. What was me may become the stuff of the birth of a new star that may give the rise to new life. My existence will be eternal regardless if I am aware of it or not. So why be so sad? I say enjoy the life you have the best you can

Jackel, you talk as if fear of death is a matter of logic.  It Isn't.  We evolved to fear death so we would live long enough for our genes would go forward.  Obviously oblivion is not something to be feared.  So we can try to talk ourselves out of this irrational fear, but for most of us, it will never be a total victory.

At 21 you still have a lot of life left to live and are still young enough to very very very easily change the course of your life if you put your mind to it.  Instead of worrying about death worry about what you want out of life then develop a plan to achieve it.  Even if you were 80 years old it would be a shame to spend time worrying about death; there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Btw, life doesn't end at 30 and no one other than high school students treats people who are over 30 like they are old timers; life is really just starting at that age (I'm about to turn 29 and am not too bothered over it).  Most people have their prime years from around age 25 up to 40 (or older if you take good care of yourself).

I'm going to go completely off the wall now but this is my way of digging myself out of my own occasional night terrors about the fact that one day soon I am going to kick the bucket.  It might sound a bit like denial or reversion to theist ways of thinking but I assure you it is a great distance away from that.  

It is essential, absolutely essential, that we make a distinction between objective death and subjective death, as you alluded to in your opening post.  Only then can we be a bit more relaxed about using the terms death and life without some qualification about whether it's objective death or subjective death that we're talking about.  We all know that human beings die - we can observe it.  That is objective death - the observation of death from the point of view of an uninvolved object.  Subjective death is more problematic.  No human being has ever experienced the observation of their own death from the point of view of themselves as the subject.  I think there is a good reason for this and it's not just that the brain ceases to observe simultaneously with the body giving out.  The fact is, subjective death doesn't exist - no one has seen it, or reported back from it.  And no one will, at any time for the rest of the time left in the universe.

What I think happens is that we take our knowledge of objective death, then we take our position as a subject and impose on ourselves the imaginary experience as an object witnessing someone else's death.  This is terrifying - and inaccurate.  The fact that we can imagine it doesn't make it any more accurate a view of what will actually happen.   It's a wholly imaginary scenario.  

To cut a long story short, I take the position that our death doesn't exist.  The only thing we can experience as human beings is life.  We cannot experience death or have any concept of it.  There is no model of death that any witnesses have ever come up with, so there is no practical point to contemplating it, and no point in likening it some known experience, because they are all based on the experience of life, and can only be applied to life.  Even Irvine Yalom's "lights out" analogy is inaccurate, or imagining the universe 5 billion years hence without me is just a useless variation on that, because life is the only human experience possible.  Basically, we do not die - and we can't die.  We have no choice in this.  What is happening when we experience the fear of death is that we are convincing ourselves that we do have such a choice.  We you don't.  The only option we have is to live, now and for the rest of our human experience.

I wouldn't even start saying anything like 'enjoy the little time you have to the full'.  There is absolutely no need to make any additional effort to enjoy life as a result of some imaginary death that is never going to come.  Life is the only experience we can have.  I do suspect that what has happened as a result of the development of capitalism, which depends on fear to control people, alongside religion, is that the concept of death was invented by the church so that they could invent the afterlife as a promise of more life.  But it's all a big con.  Even if it turns out that any of us will die tomorrow - we already have all the life we will ever need, and death is an invention.  Oh it's there alright - if you imagine yourself leaving your own body, witnessing your own death and then superimposing that experience back onto yourself as a subject.  But if you do that I would have to ask you - what did you do there again?  It didn't look like dying to me!

There are many variations on the theistic con-trick, for example imagining yourself as an old person looking back on an unfulfilled life, and manically going round the world experiencing as much as possible in anticipation of that fearful day.  I say, let the old man deal with that in his own way, I'm not going to go chasing dreams just for his benefit.  Dreams are often expensive anyway, and most of them have a huge carbon footprint.

Just to mention one or two other things, I am not at all convinced that we evolved to 'fear death'.  Animals show a lot of fear, but I doubt they fear anything so abstract as death.  They fear pain, they fear being constrained, but I don't see any evidence that they actually fear death, or have any concept of what it is.  I don't see why humans would have evolved with it.  

So the message from an atheist standpoint is far, far more optimistic, uplifting and reassuring than anything the religions can come up with.  Individually, we are alive, and we always will be, there is no future, there is no past, we all have life, we needn't let unrealisable imaginings like death get in the way of our present enjoyment of the act of being.  

Reading this just once probably won't do the trick, it is essential to develop some of these ideas as habits of thinking rather than just a one-off statement of an argument.

I am always open to debate on any of this, by the way.

My daughter is doing a 1.5 km ocean swim on Sunday, from one headland to another.
I think if I did something like that everyday, there would be no fear left over for bedtime.

Quote from: "Wilson"Jackel, you talk as if fear of death is a matter of logic.  It Isn't.  We evolved to fear death so we would live long enough for our genes would go forward.  Obviously oblivion is not something to be feared.  So we can try to talk ourselves out of this irrational fear, but for most of us, it will never be a total victory.

Of course it will never be a "Total victory".. It's about finding worth in one's self, or value of what we are even after we are gone. Everyone including myself will still have fear of death, but knowing death is not the end of our worth can ease the fear to some degree. It makes it easier to cope with even under the most grim thought of conscious oblivion.. However, what I think most people fear most is the process of death, and how they die. We don't want to suffer or even lose everything that we have to which includes ourselves. So it was not intended as some dry logic.

Quote from: "Wilson"Jackel, you talk as if fear of death is a matter of logic.  It Isn't.  We evolved to fear death so we would live long enough for our genes would go forward.  Obviously oblivion is not something to be feared.  So we can try to talk ourselves out of this irrational fear, but for most of us, it will never be a total victory.

I also think that it's sort of pointless to use logical arguments to try and ease a phobia - those don't really seem all that susceptible to logic.

@ Im_Freaking_OUT

There might be something to gain in trying to see and think about things in a different way, as if slowly training yourself. You could try it, and if you feel it's going nowhere and the stress is too much, seek a doctor, and maybe some anxiety pills or something might be better help or needed beforehand.

As another poster has written earlier, death is non existence and therefore nothing to be feared. You would have to exist to experience anything, and that includes fear. That sort of thinking works for me.

It was Mark Twain who said that he had been dead (non existent) for billions of years prior to his birth and felt no inconvenience because of it.  

Actually it's not about erasing fear, it's about giving a positive outlook. Even I will fear death because it's only natural to do so. However, I find comfort in knowing that the worst case scenario is the Mark Twain analogy.. However, if you want to see the beauty of our being, what purpose we will have even after we die, you can watch this video to understand where I come from..

[youtube:1yxzc78g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk[/youtube:1yxzc78g]

We no longer need to bow down, or fear the Universe we live in. And that is because we are apart of it, and always will be.

Just thought I'd add, looks like you're experiencing more of existential angst than a fear of death or dying (at least to my interpretation - both are subtly different). If you're more philosophically inclined, you could read something by Sartre perhaps, Heidegger or another of the existentialists.

Quote from: "Existentialist"I am not at all convinced that we evolved to 'fear death'.  Animals show a lot of fear, but I doubt they fear anything so abstract as death.  They fear pain, they fear being constrained, but I don't see any evidence that they actually fear death, or have any concept of what it is.  I don't see why humans would have evolved with it.

Animals operate much more on instinct than humans do.  Humans are conceptual thinkers, logical thinkers.  It isn't logical to fear oblivion - but we do.  So if our actions aren't guided by instinct as much as those of animals are, and logic doesn't give us any reason to fear death, what's left?  The built-in emotion of fear; it's necessary to prevent us from taking too many stupid chances.  If you didn't fear death, wouldn't it be fun to jump out of an airplane and experience free fall for a minute or so?  I believe that humans are so contemplative - able to envision the future - compared to other animals that a new mechanism was necessary to prevent us from taking unnecessary risks.

Relax. For me, the fact that I am not permanent, that I will not last forever, gives my existence meaning.
That sounds counter intuitive, but can you honestly imaging how pointless your existence would be if it were eternal? You have a window of opportunity, not an unending timeline. Use that to motivate you to make the most of what you have. Live, Love, Learn, Start a damn revolution!

And if it makes you uncomfortable to know that one day, you are not going to exist, (This used to give me chills) relax! Death is the end-all of our existence, in which all people become equal. The endless thoughtless void of nonexistence, actually comforts me. Someday, I'll slip away, and my adventure will be over. I will have left my karmic imprint on the universe, and readily be recycled into the energy system. I don't know, to me, the idea is beautiful.

"Death is nothing to us.
Since when we are,
death has not come.
And when death has come,
we are not."
~ Epicurus.

I love Epicurus's view on death, and it's one that I completely agree with. People are so frightened of death, but there's no need to fear it, because once you die, any thoughts or emotions or consciousness are gone. Worry and fear are emotions that insinuate that something bad will happen in the future. To fear death is pointless because in the very instant that it happens, your conscious ability to fear it has ceased to exist.

This thread, IT'S ALIVE!
The Pudding posted a Dylan Thomas, I'll be posting an Uncle Walt Whitman.

QuoteOh me! O life! of the questions of these recurring,
Of the endless traines of the faithless, of cities fill’d with the
foolish,
Of myself forever reproaching myself, (for who more foolish
than I, and who more faithless?)
Of eyes that vainly crave the light, of the objects mean, of the
struggle ever renew’d
Of the poor results of all, of the plodding and sordid crowds I
see around me,
Of the empty and useless years of the rest, with the rest me
intertwined,
The question, O me! so sad, recurringâ€"What good amid these,
O me, O life?
Answer.
That you are hereâ€"that life exists and identity,
That the powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse.

[spoiler:11c283yy](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.beardedroman.com%2Fimages%2Fwhitman2.jpg&hash=cf9747502e85a89cc3ad8bcc6eee6dcea7df4123)[/spoiler:11c283yy]

I don't think anyone but the deluded ever 'get over' the fact that they're going to die. We only cease fearing death either by pretending it's not an issue or by inventing fairy tales. Death is a cosmic joke, a necessity to have evolution within a finite space and with finite resources, but still sick. We are not, however, simply animals acting out our drives in nature anymore, we have the capacity to think, reason, and forge answers to problems that don't involve claw and tooth. Take that fear of death and apply it to finding a solution--that's what I'm doing. I'm going for a degree in cognitive science with the express idea that, even if I don't see a cure to natural death in my lifetime, I will have made a major contribution both to curing it and to a society that can survive effective immortality before my time is up.

Quote from: "ragarth"I don't think anyone but the deluded ever 'get over' the fact that they're going to die.

I really disagree. I don't think I'm deluded, and I'm already way over the fact that I'm going to die. I'd rather not die right now, but if I did, it's not like I would look back and regret all the things I didn't finish or accomplish, or miss my friends and family. I think people who fear death don't actually fear death itself but what comes after death. Many people fear the judgement that will affect their eternal souls, and many fear the uncertainty of what exactly happens after the body dies. I firmly believe that when the body dies, the consciousness dies, and there's nothing that suggests to me that anything to the contrary could possibly happen. I'm very comfortable with this.

Quote from: "februarystars"

Quote from: "ragarth"I don't think anyone but the deluded ever 'get over' the fact that they're going to die.

I really disagree. I don't think I'm deluded, and I'm already way over the fact that I'm going to die. I'd rather not die right now, but if I did, it's not like I would look back and regret all the things I didn't finish or accomplish, or miss my friends and family. I think people who fear death don't actually fear death itself but what comes after death. Many people fear the judgement that will affect their eternal souls, and many fear the uncertainty of what exactly happens after the body dies. I firmly believe that when the body dies, the consciousness dies, and there's nothing that suggests to me that anything to the contrary could possibly happen. I'm very comfortable with this.

:D

Seriously though, it's not the dying itself that scares people, it's the enforced nonexistence of it. Your argument makes it seem like only theists fear death, which is utterly untrue. I'm an atheist, I'm completely comfortable with materialist explanations and not having a big sky daddy, but I fear death. I don't want to cease thinking, to cease existing against my will. I want control over when and how I become worm-food or whatever state of cognitive mutation I choose to substitute for death. Some argue that because we didn't exist previously, the fact that we'll cease to exist later is okay. I disagree, just because a previous state existed does not mean it's okay to reenter that previous state. I am conscious now, I can contemplate my nonexistence, that makes any future nonexistence different in my mind than any previous nonexistence.

Given your descriptions as to why people fear death do not apply to me (they're dualistic, not materialistic in nature), I really don't have much to attack in your post. Quite simply, materialism provides no comfort to those who have a fear death. It doesn't comfort me, and so instead of ignoring the issue I work to eliminate that which I fear.

Here's something that may help a little.  I find that when I worry about something - money, relationships, mistakes at work, etc. - at first I can't sleep and can't imagine ever coming out of the blues unless the situation changes.  And then the situation doesn't change right away, but magically the fears become less important, and a few days later I've accepted the facts, and while there may still be a little bit of anxiety over the problem, it's no longer a big deal.  I suspect the same is true about the concept of death.  Don't avoid thinking about it, because it'll just fester; talk with yourself or other people until you've examined the implications honestly.  The unknown really is scarier than the reality, in most cases.  Get familiar with thinking calmly about death and maybe the fears will gradually subside.

And I agree that most people never really get over the fear of death.  It's in our DNA.  But for me and a lot of others it's a pretty minor worry, not an obsession, easily dealt with.

Quote from: "ragarth":D First thing that came to mind when reading your post is totally inappropriate and doesn't apply to you, since it applies to a different form of delusion than what we're talking about, but it's funny enough that I gotta say it: "Do the deluded ever really think they are?" This is wrong on multiple levels, but I thought it was amusing. :raised:

I don't know if there is a point to all this rambling, other than I just wanted to say that I don't think it's fair to say that anyone who claims they don't fear death is just pretending, when there are as many different concepts of human existence as there are humans living in the world.

Edit: BTW, thank you for going back and explaining your point of view a little more in depth. And just take my arguments with a grain of salt. I will never imply that you are wrong in what you think, I just want to present a different point of view than your own, because I really find it fascinating the way every person can interpret something a completely different way.  

Quote from: Im_Freaking_OUT on December 25, 2010, 01:10:06 PM
I don't know where to post this, I'm looking for some calming opinions and words so I figured philosophy is the best bet. A lot of forums can get touchy about posts not being in the correct section, so I apologise if this isn't in the section you would prefer it to be in (if any).

Erm, well, I'm 21 years old, I was born November 29th, so I have been 21 for a little less than a month.

I'm an Agnostic, I have declared myself a Christian when I was a kid, and then after I declared myself an Atheist in my teens, but since my late teens I pretty much felt like an Agnostic, I personally don't know if there is a god or not, the only things that I'm pretty sure about, are:
1, That this god is nothing that we know about.
2, And that an after life is completely inconceivable.

I think I will be blunt, the thought of death freaks me out, and has given me many a sleepless night over the past two months.
The thought of myself not existing in 5 billion years from now, whatever becomes of the earth and the human race, the thought of me not existing whilst whatever is going on freaks me out, and the concept of eternity scares me too.
I know death is natural, and our only certainty, and I know you can't experience death, because I think the mind dies with the body, but at the same time, its knowing that I will one day be like that is what freaks me out, and knowing that there is an eternity afterwards which is what freaks me out a lot, I believe its called "Apeirophobia" (fear of eternity, not of death).

I'm not looking for sympathy or looking for everybody to be nice to me and treat me like some kid who is sensitive or anything, and if I come across that way then I apologise because that's not what I am trying to do, I'm just trying to explain why I am freaked out by death
I posted something similar to this, probably a shorter version, on Yahoo! Answers, and I got treat with a lot of hostility, when I was just looking for peoples opinions and philosophy about death, and how so many Atheists and Agnostics death with that thought of death, and how it doesn't bother them.
Because, to me it seems like a bad fate, to be in oblivion, and its like being a Christian and knowing you will go to hell, and you can get on with your life, but its always at the back of my mind, telling me that I will one day die and its all over, and it puts this weird feeling in my stomach, and scares me to be honest, and its always in my mind, so as long as I never stop doing something that takes my mind off it, which is too expensive, then I will always be laying there in bed every night, staring at the ceiling, with my stomach churning over something that can happen at any time, and will happen at some point in my life, and it will be the end.
I have told myself there is nothing I can do about and and I should just live my life and enjoy, but it still wont go away, I have spoken to councillors and they tell me the same thing, they are no more qualified to help me than anybody.

I thought I would try this place because, by the title of the place I assume that this place has a pretty positive vibe and might be able to just say something that I can learn from and realize that might make me chill out a bit when it comes to death.
I know a lot of Atheists are comfortable with their fate, and  was wandering what makes you some comfortable, and what you can tell me, if anything that might change my world view, and might help me forget about death, or make me accept it?
I just want to go back to normal again, before this all started a few months ago, I just don't want to live with this fear that lurks on my shoulder like it has been doing since late September.

Thanks, if you think that something I wrote was wrong, or if there is anything here that you feel the need to confront me over, please don't just mention it and I will explain once I am less tired tomorrow morning.

Thanks again.

I used to fear death a lot.  The I started reading Wittgenstein in high school.  A bit after that, once I lost my faith, I really got what he meant by asserting, "death is not an event in life".  Death is not an event in life.  You never experience death.  You are alive until you are not.  And once you are not alive nothing matter, including death.

Made me feel better. 

This might sound strange, but do you know what makes me feel better about death? Thinking about all of the other people who are dead.

Gandhi, Groucho Marx, Einstein, Anne Frank, Plato, Bob Marley and countless other people. If death (and whatever happens after it) is good enough for them, then who am I to be upset by it? People have been dying since the moment they existed. Death is everywhere. I try to think of the commonality that we have in it, and I find it less scary. We all die alone, but everyone we know will die, so it makes it seem less lonely to me.

Look,  when you fell asleep last night did it hurt?  Did you suffer torment after you fell asleep?  Were you aware that you were no longer conscious?  Were you aware, at 4.00am that it 3 hours time you would be conscious again?

No.

Dying is only ceasing to be conscious for the final time.

Why worry about not being here for the billions of years to come?

Was it so scary not being here for most of the last 13.74 billion years?

Fear of death is only for those who have God's "loving pastoral care".   The fear that you have been taught to have only serves to keep you in the cult - its classic mind-control.

When you can see your life in the context of the bigger picture, you realise that there is nothing to fear, especially as you are not that special - it comes to all of us.

But don't imagine that this means life is worthless - quite the contrary.   You have every right to be here, no less than anyone who ever lived.  The unimaginably small chance that you were born you, and you have this one chance to enjoy consciousness and to witness a small part of the universe should fill you with enough wonder and excitement to make the most of your life - starting today!

What is the cause of your fear? as you said it has mainly been happening for the last two months, before that you didn't have this fear (or not so bad). Has there been an event in your life that has triggered this fear? Perhaps a way to overcome this is to try and look at where this thought started. Try not to look at this as something that will go away overnight and death may be something that you always fear but can manage.

It seems to me that you can't switch of when going to sleep and once the thought gets into your head it repeats and repeats, this is something I use to suffer from (still do time to time) but was usually work related. Start looking at ways to create a sleeping pattern that relaxes your mind and body a few hours before you go to sleep to help your brain not be so active. From my point of view it seems that your suffering from a mixture of sleep anxiety and your fear which are creating an endless cycle and therefore impacting on your daily life.

As others have said there is no such thing as "one shot in life" try reading the book 'Shantaram' by Gregory David Roberts, the book is basically about how a persons life goes to shit then manage to make something out of it again. Life is what you make it, not what other perceive how you should live. Don't live by others or the media standards of what makes you a success that will just bring you unhappiness, check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP6L5S14ygY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP6L5S14ygY) that highlights the bullshit that media forces down your throat.

You shouldn't be happy with death. You should be fucking pissed. At some point the ride is over. But don't waste your time on it being a debbie downer. You don't get to do this again.

We evolved to fear death.  Fear of death keeps us from doing ridiculously dangerous things; it was essential that our species fears death.  We can't completely talk ourselves out of that fear; it's emotional, not rational.  There are things we can do to ease the fear.  Talking about death and getting familiar with the idea as a part of what life on Earth is may help some, as compared with letting your fears run wild and unexamined.  For most of us the unknown is scarier than facing the truth. 

Now some of us have much greater fear of death than others.  Some on this forum say that they don't fear death because it's just like permanent sleeping.  May be true for them, more likely sort of true, perhaps they're just whistling in the dark.  There's something about the concept of nonexistence that is creepy and depressing for almost all of us.  Me, I hardly ever think about death, but when I do, there's a little anxiety - but not much.  Luckier than some, I guess.  If you aren't a believer, at least you don't have to worry about eternal torment.

None of the consolations are very convincing, the ability not dwell on it too much is a useful life skill.
Death to a twenty five year is likely to be different than what it is to a ninety five year old, eventually you may welcome it or the loss of life may not seem such a great loss.  The thought of a ninety five year old with knees knocking in fear is kind of pathetic.

I much like the Zen/Taoist view of something like this:

QuoteZen student says, "So, master, is the soul immortal or not? Do we survive our bodily death or do we get annihilated? Do we really reincarnate? Does our soul split up into component parts which get recycled, or do we as a single unit enter the body of a biological organism? And do we retain our memories or not? Or is the doctrine of reincarnation false? Is perhaps the Christian notion of survival more correct? And if so, do we get bodily resurrected, or does our soul enter a purely Platonic spiritual realm?

Zen master responds, "Your breakfast is getting cold". (Smullyan, 1977)

Smullyan, R. (1977). The Tao is Silent.  Harper Collins: New York, NY.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 16, 2011, 02:09:37 AM
None of the consolations are very convincing...........

In your humble opinion?   What does the person to whom they were directed think?

Quote from: palebluedot on July 16, 2011, 01:56:44 PM

Quote from: The Magic Pudding on July 16, 2011, 02:09:37 AM
None of the consolations are very convincing...........

In your humble opinion?   What does the person to whom they were directed think?

I think anyone reading this would see this as my opinion, opinions are all that's on offer here I think. "Im_Freaking_OUT" doesn't seem to be about any more.
Sometimes I have a humble opinion, perhaps if I suggest the US should build a space telescope I'd be humble.
Sometimes my opinion is strident, here I think it is resigned.

I am probably too young to answer this but ill give it a go. If I were you I wouldn't worry about death because i would be busy living. When I get to the point of being close to death I wouldn't mind as long as Im satisfied with my life and I did all that I could with it.

Not to state the obvious here, but death is a part of life, things naturally end. The worst part is when they do prematurely, as if the case with other things.

It's pointless to let your existential angst get in the way of you living your life, though I know that's easier said then done.

For me, I hate death more than actually fear it. I don't know what will happen, but since I don't believe in heaven or hell, I could care less.

What death is to me, is a big douche who takes away people I care for. The sadness I feel from death is ONLY because I won't be able to see, laugh, touch, of speak to this person or animal/pet ever again.

I know it sounds lame, but that is my only concern. Losing my friend and  girlfriend, not being able to share our lives together after a certain point depresses me.   But I do not fear death, because that is pointless.   I do fear assholes who fucking murder innocent people though, as I do have as fear of being murdered!   :-\

I think I take the stand point I explained to my Dad when Mum died.

If death is the total end of every thing, you needn't worry. You can't feel pain when you're dead.

If death is not the total end of every thing then its a whole new form of existence to explore.

I think a lot of people fear the physical act of dying more than actually being dead.

And anyway I don't believe in the classic Christian "being judged" and "being punished".

Even if it did come to that I would have a hell of a lot of question and complaints for any so-called loving God
that could do that to his own children.

i finished watching What dreams may come. There is a wonderful bit of dialog going on between the husband and his traveling companion in heaven..

Albert: Are you loosing your fear?
Chris Nielsen: Fear?
Albert: That you disappeared? You didn't, you only died.

Your body dies. But you don't disappear. You are still here. Just in a different way.