Happy Atheist Forum

I'm curious. There was historical evidence that Jesus Christ existed. Do you deny his existence or only his powers? Will some one please tell me what you guys believe? Thank you for your cooperation.

-ChristianWarrior

Sans solipsism, I don't believe anything.

Must say I've never seen any scientific evidence for the existence of the Jesus described in the bible.  That is part of why I am an atheist - that is why many people are atheists.  Atheism is simply lack of belief in deities - the one you apparently believe in, ChristianWarrior, or any other.

Some atheists say there may have preacher named Jesus (the name was not uncommon) at the time the Jesus of the bible is supposed to exist, but that most of what is attributed to him is made up.  However, opinions vary.

Read this:  
For theists: What is an atheist? viewtopic.php?f=2&t=830 (http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=830)

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"There was scientific evidence that Jesus Christ existed.

Really...scientific evidence?  Such as?  I've heard of claimed historical evidence (which is kinda piece mealed and hard to pin down which is valid and which is fabricated) but scientific evidence is news to me.

I really don't care if Jesus existed or not, either way there is no reason to think that anything supernatural exists.

Quote from: "Davin"Sans solipsism, I don't believe anything.

Are you saying you believe in solipsism?

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"There was scientific evidence that Jesus Christ existed.

Really...scientific evidence?  Such as?

I eagerly await the response.  :cool:

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"I'm curious. There was scientific evidence that Jesus Christ existed. Do you deny his existence or only his powers? Will some one please tell me what you guys believe? Thank you for your cooperation.

-ChristianWarrior

I think you mean there is historical evidence that Jesus Christ existed, and that's hotly debated in historical circles. Many historians both professional and armature have come to the conclusion there's no reliable extra-Biblical evidence for Jesus until centuries after his supposed life.

Regarding atheism, our belief is about gods. I am an atheist, which means I am not convinced of the existence of any gods, be they Greek, Jewish, or Mormon. I feel the same way about Yahweh that I assume you feel about Thor. If there was a Jesus, I have no reason to believe that he was in any way supernatural.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"Will some one please tell me what you guys believe? Thank you for your cooperation.

No worries mate, I'm always happy to help someone willing to go to war in the name of peace and love.

Well Atheists are all different you know, they just share a lack of belief in gods.
But for me Atheism means dancing naked in the moonlight and really wild times, but that's just me.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"But for me Atheism means dancing naked in the moonlight and really wild times, but that's just me.

I can't wait to see that get used as ammo to 'prove' that atheists are immoral bastards  

To me atheism is about not seeing any reason why an omnipotent creator of the universe would be so bored that he'd waste the effort to get all pissy about what a particular species of primates does when they're naked.

As far as the jesus thing goes, it's simply the name that the writers of the bible gave to their mythical hero when they plagarized from older stories.

The existence or otherwise of Jesus as an historical figure is really quite irrelevant. If he did I have seen no evidence anywhere that he may have been the 'son of god, whatever the heck that is supposed to be!

Atheism is simply the absence of a belief in god in my view. An atheist arguable does not 'believe' in anything regarding a deity other than the fact that there appears to be insufficient evidence to suggest there is one.

It is for the likes of you, Mr Warrior, to convince me otherwise! (and I am pretty sure you cannot!)

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"I'm curious. There was scientific evidence that Jesus Christ existed. Do you deny his existence or only his powers? Will some one please tell me what you guys believe? Thank you for your cooperation.

-ChristianWarrior

If there was evidence that Jesus Christ existed what happened to it?

If you are contending that evidence does exist that shows that JC existed you should have written "There [strike:2u8q64fu]was[/strike:2u8q64fu] is scientific evidence that Jesus Christ existed." I'll assume for arguments sake that you slipped up on your tense there.

Are you just looking for an argument or really interested in knowing what I think? I must say on the basis of past experience here and on a number of other forums with an atheist theme and predominantly atheist membership I have not yet come across a Christian who made an opening gambit as you have done who turned out to be either A) honest, B) sane or C) really interested at all. Are you going to be the exception? I really do hope so! Because one of the reasons I like this place is because it is very theist friendly, and I like to meet people who are actually open for discussion, there have been a few but in the end they either end up preaching or leaving    Before I start to take time to address your question I would like to get to know a bit about you and your motivations first please.  

1) Why have you joined HAF?
2) What do you believe?
3) Why do you believe it?
4) Why should I believe what you believe?

If you answer those questions honestly and openly then I think we will have a basis for a fruitful discussion.

Regards
Chris

PS your user name is bloody awful if you want to be taken seriously here.

To me, atheism means coming to the conclusion that we're the only ones here; we do not need to believe made up fairy tales regarding the universe. It means you have taken a step back, looked at our world, and have come to your common sense about the way things are. It means you have raised a critical eyebrow at bullshit claims. It means you have started, are on, or have reached the end of a path of critical thinking. And so on.

To me, it means many things.

Quote from: "Tank"PS your user name is bloody awful if you want to be taken seriously here.

That's what I was thinking. Whenever someone claims to be a "God warrior"/"Jesus warrior"/etc., I just have to chuckle.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"There was scientific evidence that Jesus Christ existed.

Something I have not heard of... Please elaborate.

QuoteDo you deny his existence or only his powers?

If he existed, he is long since dead and thus no longer does. His "supernatural" powers were supposed to be anchored in the Abrahamic god. Without the evidence to support such a god's existence or, for that matter, the existence of Jesus (as described in NT) the powers (or lack thereof) such a man might have had are really... Irrelevant.

QuoteWill some one please tell me what you guys believe?

I believe that it's cold on the South Pole. Among other things.

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"

Quote from: "Davin"Sans solipsism, I don't believe anything.

Are you saying you believe in solipsism?

I'm saying that I understand that there is the small leap of belief that what I'm perceiving is based off of a reality, after that, I don't believe in anything. So since I'm not interested in talking about solipsism; removing solipsism from discussion, I don't believe anything.

Quote1) Why have you joined HAF?
2) What do you believe?
3) Why do you believe it?
4) Why should I believe what you believe?

Well, I'm a Christian Warrior, so I think it's appropriate.

1. To Learn about the Atheist community
2. I'm Christian
3. I believe in it because even if it isn't proven that there's a heaven, I have faith. I believe that you go to heaven not based on your religion, but on your actions and good deeds. Faith is the reason I believe in it. I don't need everything to be scientifically proven. Although I suppose you believe that too. After all, you can't prove that there's not an afterlife and not a God, can you? That's faith to me. Believing in something even though it isn't proven. I have faith that God and Jesus exist. So to answer your question; faith is why I believe in it.
4. You don't have to believe in it. It's just a discussion. I'm not here to convert anyone who doesn't want to be converted, I'm here to learn about your beliefs.

And it's quite sad the way y'all talk to me. Like I'm a child or something. I treated you with respect, so treat me with respect. Please don't talk down to me just because I have a different religion then you. As for scientific evidence, I meant historical evidence. I was tired when I wrote that. I'll change it now.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"I'm curious. There was historical evidence that Jesus Christ existed. Do you deny his existence or only his powers? Will some one please tell me what you guys believe? Thank you for your cooperation.

-ChristianWarrior

Okay. I don't 'believe' in the sense of Faith in anything. I 'believe' in the sense of 'think is true' in things for which I accept evidence. For me acceptable evidence is that knowledge generated via the scientific method. If you can't measure it then it has to be a subjective experience such as love, hate, fear, beauty.

What do you feel about Atheism as opposed to an atheist? The reason I ask is that I have often find that people often carry around preconceptions or misunderstandings, you of atheists, I of theists, so I'll hang up my preconceptions.

A little bit background about me. Born in England Dec '59 to an atheist Father and a Christian mother. Never believed in any god. Married in '80. Three grown up kids and on 29th Nov eldest daughter produced my first Grandson  

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"Well, I'm a Christian Warrior, so I think it's appropriate.

1. To Learn about the Atheist community
2. I'm Christian
3. I believe in it because even if it isn't proven that there's a heaven, I have faith. I believe that you go to heaven not based on your religion, but on your actions and good deeds. Faith is the reason I believe in it. I don't need everything to be scientifically proven. Although I suppose you believe that too. After all, you can't prove that there's not an afterlife and not a God, can you? That's faith to me. Believing in something even though it isn't proven. I have faith that God and Jesus exist. So to answer your question; faith is why I believe in it.
4. You don't have to believe in it. It's just a discussion. I'm not here to convert anyone who doesn't want to be converted, I'm here to learn about your beliefs.

And it's quite sad the way y'all talk to me. Like I'm a child or something. I treated you with respect, so treat me with respect. Please don't talk down to me just because I have a different religion then you. As for scientific evidence, I meant historical evidence. I was tired when I wrote that. I'll change it now.

Welcome to the forum.

I have not been presented, seen or even heard of any satisfying evidence that Jesus existed. Nor any God/Gods from any religion. Your reason for having "faith" seems troubling to me. Using your structure I could insert any belief, regardless of how absurd it is, and claim it is self-justifying, because I belief it. Which is circular. Descartes fell catastrophically into this trap, and so did many others.

As an Atheist, I believe in nothing. If you wanted to see my values however, I would direct you toward Humanism.

I do admire that you have ventured into what is perhaps an unknown group to you, that being Atheists, with the desire to learn.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"And it's quite sad the way y'all talk to me. Like I'm a child or something. I treated you with respect, so treat me with respect. Please don't talk down to me just because I have a different religion then you.

They´re not talking like that because you´re a different religion, but rather because you hit their berserker button.

Internet atheists generally react very poorly when you try to say that they "believe in atheism" on faith.  The more times they encounter this kind of statement, the testier it makes them.

Some atheists also react poorly to:
1)Statements that group them into categories
2)Statements about their beliefs that they do not find to be accurate
3)Implications that they really do believe, and are just in denial
4)Proselytizing
5)Threats of hellfire
etc

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"And it's quite sad the way y'all talk to me. Like I'm a child or something. I treated you with respect, so treat me with respect. Please don't talk down to me just because I have a different religion then you.

They´re not talking like that because you´re a different religion, but rather because you hit their berserker button.

Internet atheists generally react very poorly when you try to say that they "believe in atheism" on faith.  The more times they encounter this kind of statement, the testier it makes them.

But why? They do have faith in not believing in a God. I can't prove that God exists. I have faith in him, so doesn't the same rule apply to Atheists not believing in God? Or does faith only apply to Christianity?

...for the same reason it doesn´t apply to people who don't believe in unicorns.  I mean, unicorns COULD exist, but I haven´t found any reason to believe that they do.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"And it's quite sad the way y'all talk to me. Like I'm a child or something. I treated you with respect, so treat me with respect. Please don't talk down to me just because I have a different religion then you.

They´re not talking like that because you´re a different religion, but rather because you hit their berserker button.

Internet atheists generally react very poorly when you try to say that they "believe in atheism" on faith.  The more times they encounter this kind of statement, the testier it makes them.

But why? They do have faith in not believing in a God. I can't prove that God exists. I have faith in him, so doesn't the same rule apply to Atheists not believing in God? Or does faith only apply to Christianity?

Faith applies to people who believe something without sufficient evidence. I do not deny that God could exist but I don't take your 'Faith' or anybody else's 'Faith' as sufficient evidence for me to agree that the Christian God or any God(s) actually exists. In practice I don't believe in the supernatural at all. The reason I am an atheist is because no theist has ever been able to back up their 'Faith' with facts. The absence of facts supporting the claim that any thing/condition exists allows me to dismiss the claim. You use exactly the same rules as I most of the time. Suppose you wanted to buy a car and the salesman told you all about the car and it sounded great, but refused to show you the car before you had paid in full. Would you buy the car, would I but the car, would anybody buy the car under those circumstances? I doubt it. So why take something considerably more important than buying a car on 'Faith'? It makes absolutly no sense to me whatsoever.

You claim that a God exists and a very specific version of God exists. Admir Halilovich a Bosnian Muslim I know better than I do you tells me he has 'Faith' that Allah exists and that the Qu'ran is the true word of God. You don't believe what Admir believes. Why not? He is faithful, when he was a teenager his life was threatened by Christians because and only because his 'Faith' was not the same as theirs.

Theists make claims that God(s) exists, that's fine. But just like the car salesman I expect them to show me the 'god' before I will believe it exists. It's perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of the claims you are making as you have provided no evidence to support them. You claim that the supernatural exits (you'll have to define it first as well), that part of that hypothetical supernatural realm is sentient, that the sentient part cares about the little ball of rock we share is important and that if I don't love this sentient part of a hypothetical supernatural realm that I will end up in Hell for all eternity.

So your 'Faith' in the existance of God is not equivalent in any way to my scepticism of your 'Faith'.

QuoteFaith applies to people who believe something without sufficient evidence

Exactly. I don't expect you to believe in my god. That's not my point. My point is that you can't say that god doesn't exist as a factual statement. You can say it as an opinion, or at the risk of being flamed, a faithful statement. You can't prove that he doesn't exist as I can't prove that he does exist. I believe he exist without any hard evidence. Faith. You believe he doesn't exist without any hard evidence other than the fact that there's no evidence that he does exist. Faith. Right? Anyways, I'm leaving now. This time for good. Some of you have been nice and polite and I genuinely would want to learn about your religion. Others of you seem to be out to get me just because I'm a Christian. I'm not going to sit back and take insults from the latter. To those of you who were nice to me and tried to help me understand your views. Thank you. To those of you who were snarky to me; congrats. I guess you achieved your goal in making this a one sided BBS. Oh and by the way McQ, you're quite rude for a mod. You attacked me based on the fact that I didn't know about your culture. Did you try to help me at first? No. Taking advantage and trying to make a fool of someone who is ignorant about your religion or culture defines trash to me. Good luck with your life. Goodbye.

Quote from: "cw"Anyways, I'm leaving now. This time for good.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"

Quote from: "Tank"Faith applies to people who believe something without sufficient evidence

Exactly. I don't expect you to believe in my god. That's not my point. My point is that you can't say that god doesn't exist as a factual statement.

I don't say God doesn't exist, I never had and I never would because one can't prove a negative.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"You can say it as an opinion, or at the risk of being flamed, a faithful statement. You can't prove that he doesn't exist as I can't prove that he does exist.

But your belief is not equivilent to my lack of belief. It is perfectly reasonable not to believe something for which there is no evidence.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"I believe he exist without any hard evidence. Faith.

That is your choice.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"You believe he doesn't exist without any hard evidence other than the fact that there's no evidence that he does exist. Faith. Right?

Wrong.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"Anyways, I'm leaving now. This time for good. Some of you have been nice and polite and I genuinely would want to learn about your religion.

Troll. Having been told that this sort of statement is not appreciated you still do it.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"Others of you seem to be out to get me just because I'm a Christian.

No issue with Christians.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"I'm not going to sit back and take insults from the latter. To those of you who were nice to me and tried to help me understand your views. Thank you. To those of you who were snarky to me; congrats. I guess you achieved your goal in making this a one sided BBS. Oh and by the way McQ, you're quite rude for a mod. You attacked me based on the fact that I didn't know about your culture. Did you try to help me at first? No. Taking advantage and trying to make a fool of someone who is ignorant about your religion or culture defines trash to me. Good luck with your life. Goodbye.

See you tomorrow.

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"

Quote from: "cw"Anyways, I'm leaving now. This time for good.

:mad:

Quote from: "Velma"

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"

Quote from: "cw"Anyways, I'm leaving now. This time for good.

:mad:

He'll be back  

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"Some of you have been nice and polite and I genuinely would want to learn about your religion.

Then for starters, stop calling it a religion. If you genuinely want to learn about atheism, then stop calling it what it is not. Do you think that not collecting stamps is a hobby? Do you think that doing nothing is exercise? Do you think that bald is a hair color? Do you think that anything that is not blue is still blue? Atheism is not a faith, it's the lack of a belief in a god. It makes no positive claims. An atheist doesn't have to hold that there is no god to be an atheist, just that they don't believe in any god. That's it. Anything else is a misconception and continuing to assert that atheism takes faith (even when the word only means lack of belief in god(s)), or a religion (just as theism is not a religion, neither is atheism), is simply wrong.

I don't say, "I want to learn about theism, why don't Christians believe in a god?" I don't say, "I want to learn about theism, why aren't theists religious?"

Both statements are the equivelant of what you're doing by attributing faith to a word that means "lack of belief in a god or gods" and attributing "religion" to a word that covers such a diverse group whose only thing in common is the lack of a binding principle, belief and/or dogma.

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"This time for good. Some of you have been nice and polite and I genuinely would want to learn about your religion. Others of you seem to be out to get me just because I'm a Christian. I'm not going to sit back and take insults from the latter. To those of you who were nice to me and tried to help me understand your views. Thank you. To those of you who were snarky to me; congrats. I guess you achieved your goal in making this a one sided BBS. Oh and by the way McQ, you're quite rude for a mod. You attacked me based on the fact that I didn't know about your culture. Did you try to help me at first? No. Taking advantage and trying to make a fool of someone who is ignorant about your religion or culture defines trash to me. Good luck with your life. Goodbye.

Will you forgive me?

Matthew 18:21-22
Matthew 5:44

Quote from: "ChristianWarrior"My point is that you can't say that god doesn't exist as a factual statement.

Gnostic theism = god definitely exists
Agnostic theism = I believe god exists, but I'm not sure
Agnostic atheism = I have no reason to believe in god
Gnostic atheism = god definitely doesn't exist

99% of atheists, like those here and myself, are agnostic atheists. We don't actively believe god doesn't exist, but rather are simply unconvinced of the existence of god because of a complete lack of evidence. We feel the same way about god as you might feel about elves. You can't say that elves don't exist (because you can't disprove a negative), but you can say that you've never seen any evidence elves exist so you're comfortable being unconvinced.

I would like to thank CW for giving me a textbook case to refer to when I try to describe a Christmas Christian to someone.  Joins right around Christmas time, acts all nice, claims to want to learn about atheists, ignores anything we tell them about atheists, jumps over to a new thread asking us either why we hate god or why we have faith, gets mad that the mean old atheists called them out for lying about wanting to learn about atheists...leaves in a huff telling us how mean and that we hate Christians (despite the presence of any other Christians being able to discuss without being berated constantly); might come back one more time to make a further jerk of themselves just to make sure their martyr status is ensured.

Congrats CW, you get your jesus brownie point of the day for standing up to the mean old atheists who you still know nothing about because you never actually cared to learn....or you could come back, act like a normal person, pay attention and prove me wrong  

I've seen the same thing happen around easter time also, Whitney.  I've also noticed that they often have user names like ChristianWarrior or SavedbytheBlood, or HeavenBound.  

Quote from: "Velma"I've seen the same thing happen around easter time also, Whitney.  I've also noticed that they often have user names like ChristianWarrior or SavedbytheBlood, or HeavenBound.  

Ya...sometimes Easter is even worse because it carrys stronger religious weight for most people.  

The similarity of how they go about posting is quite odd to me...as if some church out there is (failing horribly at) teaching people how to preach to atheists and then unleashes them on the internet for practice.

I also wonder if maybe there are just a lot of bored atheists who imitate christians around the holidays just to amuse themselves and make Christians look like morons...but then I wonder if that many atheists could stand to stay in such character for very long before it would quit being funny and just annoy them too.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Velma"I've seen the same thing happen around easter time also, Whitney.  I've also noticed that they often have user names like ChristianWarrior or SavedbytheBlood, or HeavenBound.   lol   Seriously, I've dealt with dozens of them and there is a remarkable sameness that makes you wonder if a single church or traveling preacher is out there teaching folks how to deal with atheists on an atheist forum - and doing a very poor job of it.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"

Quote from: "Tank"PS your user name is bloody awful if you want to be taken seriously here.

That's what I was thinking. Whenever someone claims to be a "God warrior"/"Jesus warrior"/etc., I just have to chuckle.

 :hide:

Um...ChristianWarrior... :hmm:

Biblical Jesus - A guy who is at the same time descended from king David on his father's side, born of a virgin mother which means that one of the things that would validate his jewish messiah status in ancient Judea is null since Joseph is not his father but at the same time is genealogically. Jesus is both son of god and god himself and is also the holy ghost and just to make things a bit more confusing, is all of this at the same time. Looks like mighty legitimacy patchwork to me.

As for the bible, since there are no extra biblical records specifically of him and the bible is not made up of eye witness accounts but written more than a hundred years after the supposed Jesus died, then I'm also leaning strongly toward whatever was attributed to him was distorted or the teachings passed down of multiple philosophers and 'messiahs' condensed into one Jesus Christ.