Happy Atheist Forum

Just trying to gauge a response, do you think it's completely dickish for an atheist to start a big angry debate with a nine year old girl about the existence of Santa Clause?

An acquaintance of mine was doing this today, and I cannot imagine a more asshole thing to do.  I get questioning people's beliefs, but isn't there a line not to be crossed when it comes to Santa?  I mean, you're not going to earn any points for intellectual superiority by showing why you don't believe in the fat man.  But no, this guy was seriously yelling at a little girl, calling her ignorant for believing in Santa.

If you're going to shit all over the magic, feel free to attack Jesus, but the way I see it, Santa Clause is sacred!  I'm just venting, I suppose. That really pissed me off.

IDK, just so this thread isn't entirely useless, I'll ask: what do you all think of Santa?  Something you'd let your kids believe?  Something it's okay to attack?  You don't celebrat Christmas, and you don't give a shit?

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SANTA!! !

Quote from: "KebertX"Just trying to gauge a response, do you think it's completely dickish for an atheist to start a big angry debate with a nine year old girl about the existence of Santa Clause?

Yes.

I can't imagine a parent doing this, parents usualy have to actively maintain the belief.
For someone to this to someone else's child is sick.
I might even say this disabuse is abuse, if it wasn't obvious.
Is this person a moron sociopath or what?

Quote from: "KebertX"Just trying to gauge a response, do you think it's completely dickish for an atheist to start a big angry debate with a nine year old girl about the existence of Santa Clause?

Yes.  The topic doesn't even matter.  An adult starting a big angry debate with a nine year old girl (or boy) about anything at all would be moronic.

Now, let's say it were a friendly, good-natured, easy-going debate about some topic, engaged in strictly for the edification of the nine year old.  Evaluating this would require us to evaluate the topic itself.  Here I would have to assume the adult wasn't in fact the kid's parent, since I can't imagine the kid persevering when the parent says, "Look, Sue, trust me, it was I who put those packages under the tree, and it was I who bought the gifts in the first place, and it was I who ate the cookes you left by the fireplace."  What kid would persevere in the face of that?

Assuming the adult wasn't the kid's parent, I'm left imagining a conversation like this:

Adult: "Your parents bought those gifts."

Kid: "Did not!  My parents don't trick me!"

Adult: "Your parents put the gifts under the tree."

Kid: "Did not!  They'd tell me if they did!"

Adult: "Your parents ate the cookies you left by the fireplace."

Kid: "Did not!  I'll prove it!  When they pick me up this afternoon I'll ask them!"

Adult: "You do that.  I look forward to it."

     
Yup.  Pretty much the definition of dickish.

This was not his daughter, but a distant cousin (I think).  He's taking an idealogical stand against teaching children to believe in things that aren't true.  The girl was actually doing pretty well in the conversation.  And I admit, it was amusing to see how well her Pro-Santa argument matched up with the average brainwashed religious faithhaver's Pro-God argument.

But she really was presenting her Santa-faith in a very intelligent and collected manner.  Plus just a little holier-than-thou snobbery

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"I can't imagine a parent doing this, parents usualy have to actively maintain the belief.
For someone to this to someone else's child is sick.
I might even say this disabuse is abuse, if it wasn't obvious.
Is this person a moron sociopath or what?

As far as I can tell, he's just an angry atheist out to steal Christmas.  Not unlike...

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.christmaslibrary.ca%2Fgrinch%2Fclipart%2Fjim.jpg&hash=744ebbe1d07f472495ab6340ea22fc7014c43fba)

I don't think there is anything wrong with playing the pretend games with kids regarding santa...it's a good opportunity to allow them to learn how to look a the world skeptically.  However, even if there were something wrong about telling kids some things that aren't true that doesn't excuse someone to berate a child for holding onto childish beliefs.

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't think there is anything wrong with playing the pretend games with kids regarding santa...it's a good opportunity to allow them to learn how to look a the world skeptically.  However, even if there were something wrong about telling kids some things that aren't true that doesn't excuse someone to berate a child for holding onto childish beliefs.

Because fewer people do. Other kids start to tell yours that your parents are lying and it's just a whole big ugly mess. Nothing like losing your kids trust over Coca-Cola's mascot.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't think there is anything wrong with playing the pretend games with kids regarding santa...it's a good opportunity to allow them to learn how to look a the world skeptically.  However, even if there were something wrong about telling kids some things that aren't true that doesn't excuse someone to berate a child for holding onto childish beliefs.

Because fewer people do. Other kids start to tell yours that your parents are lying and it's just a whole big ugly mess. Nothing like losing your kids trust over Coca-Cola's mascot.

OFF TOPIC: Santa did exist in many forms before Coca Cola came up with the modern Santa image.  Like the rest of Christmas, Santa was stolen from a Pagan myth.

ON TOPIC: I happen to think childhood is the perfect time to believe in Santa, and the tooth-fairy, and all that magic stuff.  And learning Santa is a "lie" is really a great way to learn to question authority.  Even if that authority were me, I'd be glad to see that trait in a child of mine.

I posted something like this before, so I apologize for the repeat. I'm an athiest who loves Christmas.

I think the Santa myth is a great path toward atheism. Will my children trust me less when they figure out the truth? Maybe, but why should they trust any authority figure?

But it's so much more than that. When children learn the truth of the Santa myth, they learn that the spirit of giving can live in only one place - inside themselves. If there's no magical figure to take care of everything, guess who has to do the hard work? We do! Knowing the truth about Santa means you have a lot more personal responsibility when it comes to Christmas. That's the message. And it isn't limited to the Santa myth. Not believing in God means you have a lot more personal responsibility when it comes to your life and the world you find yourself in.

I want my children to know the truth about Santa - and I want them to figure it out for themselves.

Quote from: "ablprop"I'm an athiest who loves Christmas.

This  

With regard to my own daughters -

Desirable
Question authority's accuracy in general.
Question authority's honesty in general.
Question Dad's accuracy.

Undesirable
Question Dad's honesty.

QuoteI happen to think childhood is the perfect time to believe in Santa, and the tooth-fairy, and all that magic stuff. And learning Santa is a "lie" is really a great way to learn to question authority. Even if that authority were me, I'd be glad to see that trait in a child of mine.

I just can't live with myself doing it. Doesn't feel right. But maybe Santa is real. (http://scienceblogs.com/omnibrain/2010/12/proving_santa_claus_is_real.php)

Quote from: "Sophus"

QuoteI happen to think childhood is the perfect time to believe in Santa, and the tooth-fairy, and all that magic stuff. And learning Santa is a "lie" is really a great way to learn to question authority. Even if that authority were me, I'd be glad to see that trait in a child of mine.

I just can't live with myself doing it. Doesn't feel right. But maybe Santa is real. (http://scienceblogs.com/omnibrain/2010/12/proving_santa_claus_is_real.php)

That's a reasonable thing for your own children, but for someone to take on the task of putting other peoples children straight is just weird.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "Sophus"

QuoteI happen to think childhood is the perfect time to believe in Santa, and the tooth-fairy, and all that magic stuff. And learning Santa is a "lie" is really a great way to learn to question authority. Even if that authority were me, I'd be glad to see that trait in a child of mine.

I just can't live with myself doing it. Doesn't feel right. But maybe Santa is real. (http://scienceblogs.com/omnibrain/2010/12/proving_santa_claus_is_real.php)

That's a reasonable thing for your own children, but for someone to take on the task of putting other peoples children straight is just weird.

 Never claimed to be doing that.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "Sophus"I just can't live with myself doing it. Doesn't feel right. But maybe Santa is real. (http://scienceblogs.com/omnibrain/2010/12/proving_santa_claus_is_real.php)

That's a reasonable thing for your own children, but for someone to take on the task of putting other peoples children straight is just weird.

 Never claimed to be doing that.

I didn't mean to suggest you did, it was what the guy described in the OP was doing.

Quote from: "Sophus"I just can't live with myself doing it. Doesn't feel right. But maybe Santa is real. (http://scienceblogs.com/omnibrain/2010/12/proving_santa_claus_is_real.php)

 

Santa belief is a common topic of discussion in our household this year.  I am trying to be understanding, but my daughter is a bit of a Santa fundamentalist.  I definitely don't want to take the asshat route described previously, but my DD keeps asking me questions about Santa that I just can't answer.  I accidentally said something about penguins living at the North Pole with Santa and got into the following conversation.

What I really want to know is if Santa is real, why can't there be penguins at the North Pole?  

My DD says "No! Because penguins only live in the Southern hemisphere."  

It's an ongoing debate.  After awhile it can be annoying.


edited for clarity and background info

Quote from: "ablprop"But it's so much more than that. When children learn the truth of the Santa myth, they learn that the spirit of giving can live in only one place - inside themselves. If there's no magical figure to take care of everything, guess who has to do the hard work? We do! Knowing the truth about Santa means you have a lot more personal responsibility when it comes to Christmas. That's the message. And it isn't limited to the Santa myth. Not believing in God means you have a lot more personal responsibility when it comes to your life and the world you find yourself in.

I'm not quite sure how this relates to the degree of personal responsibility on the Christian, let alone anyone.

Might you elaborate for me on this matter before I jump to a conclusion, please.

I might be way off base here, but I think he´s saying that a it's easier, but less desirable, to follow a predefined set of moral guidelines.

It only applies to you if you follow someone else's system of morality to the letter and never bother to figure anything out for yourself. I doubt that this is the case.

He's also saying that, just like Santa doesn't hand out presents, God doesn't help you out so much, either(at least in this life).... but God helps those who help themselves, right?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "ablprop"But it's so much more than that. When children learn the truth of the Santa myth, they learn that the spirit of giving can live in only one place - inside themselves. If there's no magical figure to take care of everything, guess who has to do the hard work? We do! Knowing the truth about Santa means you have a lot more personal responsibility when it comes to Christmas. That's the message. And it isn't limited to the Santa myth. Not believing in God means you have a lot more personal responsibility when it comes to your life and the world you find yourself in.

I'm not quite sure how this relates to the degree of personal responsibility on the Christian, let alone anyone.

Might you elaborate for me on this matter before I jump to a conclusion, please.

You believe in God, so you think that the reason to be a good person is to please God.  We don't believe in God.  We believe the reason to be good is a matter of personal responsibility.  For you, Kindness is a means to an end.  For us, kindness is not a means, it is an end.  The object of kindness is kindness.  Isn't it more moral to do good out of altruism than a greed for a seat in heaven?

As for Santa: Sure when you're little you can believe that selfless giving is something that comes from an omnipotent magic man.  Because magic is nice for kids.  But when you learn Santa isn't real, you find that the true spirit of Christmas was actually inside yourself all along. Santa Claus lives in your heart, not in an icy workshop up north.

Christmas is so much more beautiful when you realize, it's not magic coming from outside, it's just good people being kind to one another.

And buying each other useless shit.

Quote from: "KebertX"You believe in God, so you think that the reason to be a good person is to please God.

No, being good is natural in a rational species.

Quote from: "KebertX"We don't believe in God.  We believe the reason to be good is a matter of personal responsibility.

This proves my point above.

Quote from: "KebertX"For you, Kindness is a means to an end.  For us, kindness is not a means, it is an end.  The object of kindness is kindness.  Isn't it more moral to do good out of altruism than a greed for a seat in heaven?

Not greed at all.  Have you read the parts in the Bible about salvation?  The reason one is "good" (including kindness, etc.) is not FOR a gain, but out of gratitude for what has been done for one.  A 'seat' in heaven is certainly part of the reward, but if the motivation is greed, then as the Scripture says,

Quote from: "Revelation 3:15,16"I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Who, btw, having greed as their only basis for "good" will endure persecution from others for the sake of greed?  I highly doubt it.
Likewise, not every person claiming to be Christian will be saved.

Quote from: "Matthew 7:21-23""Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.  Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'  Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I don't mean for this to be preachy, but rather to make the point that a true Christian is not motivated by greed, as you seem to suggest.

Quote from: "KebertX"As for Santa: Sure when you're little you can believe that selfless giving is something that comes from an omnipotent magic man.  Because magic is nice for kids.  But when you learn Santa isn't real, you find that the true spirit of Christmas was actually inside yourself all along. Santa Claus lives in your heart, not in an icy workshop up north.

Christmas is so much more beautiful when you realize, it's not magic coming from outside, it's just good people being kind to one another.

And buying each other useless shit.

Change a few nouns and pronouns here and you have the Christian reason for celebrating Christmas and for doing good.

I say let kids be kids. In their own good time they will figure the truth out. In the meantime don't be an ass by spoiling their fun.
Don't take the magic of imagination and fairytales away from nine year old girls. Or boys for that matter.

Santa is a great exercise in rational thinking.  When my daughters were little, we went ahead and had the fun of the Santa Myth.  But I never spent a lot of time trying to persuade them that it was true.  We took them to see Santa, the presents appeared under the tree, all the good parts.  As they got older, and my daughters would ask me "Mom, is Santa real?" and my reply would always be "Well, what do you think?"  For as long as their answer was "I think he's real" then I would just say "OK" and drop the conversation.  As soon as their answer was "I think maybe he's not" then I'd start into getting them to explain why they thought what they did.

My oldest daughter was suspicious of the Tooth Fairy before figuing out Santa.  So she did an experiment.  She put a lost tooth under her pillow and didn't tell anybody.  Next morning, her tooth was still there and no money.  That clinched it for her, and she then asked me to confirm her discovery.  Once I did, that was it for Santa and the Easter Bunny as well.  She also agreed with me that it would not be fair to tell her younger sister yet, that she should be allowed to figure it out on her own.

Now, I need to add this picture:
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Quote from: "AD".... that a true Christian ....

I wonder how many say that about you?

No matter your apologetics, the fact is that you assign labels like "True Christian" or "False Christian" based solely on human judgment.  

When you understand your own fallibility, you'll be that much closer to forgiving it in others.  And when you forgive it in others, you'll erase a little more of it in yourself.

You really should be better than this.

I was a dubious child when it came to Santa, God, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy-I wanted REAL LIVING PROOF.  One year, I hid myself in a cardboard box in the living room, covered in a blanket to catch Santa.  And of course I fell asleep, because shit..I was like 6 and and sugar crashed from the 8,000 Christmas cookies I had eaten.  Getting tired of doing my own research, I asked one of the older kids that I rode the school bus with and they confirmed what I suspected-they was no Santa.  When I told my parents I knew Sana wasn't real, they just told me to keep my mouth shut about it, so as not to ruin it for my younger brother.  And then my grandma told him a year later anyway, and my mom didn't talk to her for months because she was so pissed.

Yeah, I think it's fucked for an adult to ruin that magic for a child.  Life is hard enough once we grow up, and I think kids should be able to hold onto that sense of the strange and incredible for as long as they can.  Reality will ruin it at some point-no need to rush the process.  It's really a parent's responsibility to decide when the Santa myth has gone far enough, not some other random person.  Unlike a false belief in God, I can't really think of any dire consequences that would arise as a result of allowing children to believe in Santa-certainly nothing that would necessitate a rude awakening from an angry atheist.  What that guy did to the 9 year old just sounds mean and spiteful, and that's really not cool to do to a child in any context.

I never once believer in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, or any other mythical creature that kids believe in when they are young. My parents simply never lied to me about them. Looking back now, I wonder if that was a good thing or a bad thing. Eh.

Ya that's definitely messed up.  Santa is one of those magical things that children love, and that experience should not be taken away in such a horrible way.  There is a time and a place for the child's parents to tell her the truth, but for some angry guy to just yell at her and break it like that is horrible.

I've often questioned whether or not I want to celebrate Christmas when I have children.  I think I would like to though.  I won't make it all religious or anything like that, but I would just feel like I was keeping my kids from experiencing something I got the opportunity to experience when I was a kid.  Christmas was always the best.

There are some heretics around here trying to make unclean the most holy Santa by using a giant PVC Pipe slingshot every year to try and knock him off of their chimney. (I shit you not!)
But! With his infinite wisdom and ever mysterious ways, he has avoided them every year!

All hail Santa Claus!

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Well, im about to have a baby girl! And Im very excited! My wife and i have talked about how to raise our kids. She is a christian just to let you guys know. We have talked about the santa clause thing. I told her we should not take that bit of joy out of the kid! When she gets older she should pick on her own if either she wants to believe or not! When i was growing up i never got gifts in christmas because my parents are christians and said it was about Jesus and not gifts. When i moved out i never celebrated it. But now that im going to have a family i want my little girl to feel that happiness that i never had! Its just for the kids! For them to have fun! When they get older they can deside for themself what to believe. And i think its the same with religion! Im not say don't teach them what you believe. I'm just saying do not force them to believe it!