Happy Atheist Forum

Would you agree that this movie features a spellbinding performance from Jim Caviezel?

Can't say.  Never saw the movie except for some clips which completely turned me off of the movie.

Yes. I think he did a great job. I actually liked the movie, but found it very difficult to watch from a perspective of not liking torture.

Never watched it...don't care much for bloody movies.

Just happened to see the movie again recently and remembered how good it was.  I must say I'm surprised by the positive comments here, I haven't heard many good things about it from atheists.

Quote from: "hingedro"Just happened to see the movie again recently and remembered how good it was.  I must say I'm surprised by the positive comments here, I haven't heard many good things about it from atheists.

It's exploitative torture porn, what's there to like?

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "hingedro"Just happened to see the movie again recently and remembered how good it was.  I must say I'm surprised by the positive comments here, I haven't heard many good things about it from atheists.

It's exploitative torture porn, what's there to like?

You are not the first person to say that.

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "hingedro"Just happened to see the movie again recently and remembered how good it was.  I must say I'm surprised by the positive comments here, I haven't heard many good things about it from atheists.

It's exploitative torture porn, what's there to like?

It's tough going at times, I'll give you that.  But it brings to life the sacrifice that Christ made for us all.  (Sorry if that comes across as a bit preachy)

Quote from: "hingedro"

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "hingedro"Just happened to see the movie again recently and remembered how good it was.  I must say I'm surprised by the positive comments here, I haven't heard many good things about it from atheists.

It's exploitative torture porn, what's there to like?

It's tough going at times, I'll give you that.  But it brings to life the sacrifice that Christ made for us all.  (Sorry if that comes across as a bit preachy)

Sacrifice?  More of a very bad weekend IMO.

Actually more of a story of a very bad weekend.

I watched it when it first came out.  It is gruesome in that it depicts a true event (IMHO).  I can't imagine it worse, although I believe it was.  The things love and family make us do...eh?

I haven't been able to bring myself to watch it again.  When I come across it on the movie channels, I close my eyes and quickly change the channel.  Just too much.

Quote from: "Velma"Actually more of a story of a very bad weekend.

Like the difference between Weekend at Bernie's and Weekend at Bernie's 2?

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Velma"Actually more of a story of a very bad weekend.

Like the difference between Weekend at Bernie's and Weekend at Bernie's 2?

Something like that.

I do wonder, how is it a sacrifice when, in the end, he lost nothing?  He knew how the story was going to end - with him going back to where he came from with more accolades than when he left.  Even if you count his supposed thirty years on earth (including the crucifixion) as part of the 'sacrifice',  it still means nothing in that light.  The story doesn't even pass muster as decent fiction, much less the tale of a deity supposedly come to earth.

Quote from: "Velma"

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Velma"Actually more of a story of a very bad weekend.

Like the difference between Weekend at Bernie's and Weekend at Bernie's 2?

Something like that.

I do wonder, how is it a sacrifice when, in the end, he lost nothing?  He knew how the story was going to end - with him going back to where he came from with more accolades than when he left.  Even if you count his supposed thirty years on earth (including the crucifixion) as part of the 'sacrifice',  it still means nothing in that light.  The story doesn't even pass muster as decent fiction, much less the tale of a deity supposedly come to earth.

That did get me to think about how his last few moments of suffering in no way equates to the eternal suffering those who simply do not believe in him will experience. It seems that those going to hell to suffer for eternity are making a far bigger sacrifice than Jesus ever did. There are even children that go through more suffering than Jesus did for far longer and they've never sinned.

Well, that triggered a lot more roads than that, but I'll stop here.

Quote from: "Velma"

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Velma"Actually more of a story of a very bad weekend.

Like the difference between Weekend at Bernie's and Weekend at Bernie's 2?

Something like that.

I do wonder, how is it a sacrifice when, in the end, he lost nothing?  He knew how the story was going to end - with him going back to where he came from with more accolades than when he left.  Even if you count his supposed thirty years on earth (including the crucifixion) as part of the 'sacrifice',  it still means nothing in that light.  The story doesn't even pass muster as decent fiction, much less the tale of a deity supposedly come to earth.

I would be a much more inspirational story if after having been in hell Jesus realized it was wrong to send sinners there and then forgave everyone despite belief because it was the right thing to do.

Passion o' christ, Saw 2-10, Hostel... They're all the same. Crap stories and too much greusome violence to be worth watching.

It was their standard treatment for criminals back then.  Why is it so special that Jesus got the same treatment as anyone else?  Also, as others have said, there are people who have suffered as much for far longer.  I remember a relative who died with cancer that metastasized to her bones.  It took six months of intense suffering before she died.  Even with morphine, the vibrations from people walking softly into her room caused her agony, the rumble of a passing truck sent shudders through her body which then caused more pain.  And, unlike Jesus, she had committed no crimes.  

Jesus committed crimes.  Remember when he attacked the moneylenders in the temple?  What would happen if someone attacked the people inside a bank or church in this day and age?  Certainly, they wouldn't be executed but even common thieves were executed two thousand years ago.  It usually took several offenses before a thief or other petty criminal was executed but Jesus had the gall to commit his crime in a temple.  I don't think it was right to execute him but he got no worse than other criminals of the time.  He was lucky he didn't get impaled on a short stake instead.  He even got to die faster than most people executed by crucifixion.  The Roman with the spear was being merciful.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Velma"I do wonder, how is it a sacrifice when, in the end, he lost nothing?  He knew how the story was going to end - with him going back to where he came from with more accolades than when he left.  Even if you count his supposed thirty years on earth (including the crucifixion) as part of the 'sacrifice',  it still means nothing in that light.  The story doesn't even pass muster as decent fiction, much less the tale of a deity supposedly come to earth.

That did get me to think about how his last few moments of suffering in no way equates to the eternal suffering those who simply do not believe in him will experience. It seems that those going to hell to suffer for eternity are making a far bigger sacrifice than Jesus ever did. There are even children that go through more suffering than Jesus did for far longer and they've never sinned.

The "God" that created all, is the beginning and the end...comes "down" and subjects Himself to the likeness of His creation, dies the death of a sinner (Whitney, this would answer your question..."The wages of sin is death" and not hell.  Hell can be discussed elsewhere if you like.) without having any sin in Him.  Sin was placed on Him, that through His death, though He had no sin, would pay the debt (death) for ALL who believe.  He chose to do this for His created.  No person with the foreknowledge of cancer and whatever else would choose to die in such a manner.  I dare say, that, yes, there are some that may've suffered more pain and for longer, but no person suffered that pain and had "the weight of the world" put on him/her.  Everyone that has suffered has suffered to their own end.  The beauty of God coming down is that He didn't need to.  His capacity to love (like that one Whitney?    ) is such that it was in His nature to do so.  The sacrifice is that He did so willingly.  And in doing so, He has subjected Himself to the image of His creation...forever human and no longer Spirit or whatever God's form is/was prior.

God, the author of the Law (that condemns the sinner to death) and Judge...Made the Law, Enforces the Law, and HIMSELF pays the price the Law demands in order that ALL can be saved.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt""The wages of sin is death" and not hell.

Yes, we must not forget that no matter how good you are, Christians believe you deserve Hell if you don't worship their God and that they deserve Heaven no matter what bad things they do.  They find a murderer pedophile who is a Christian a more worthy human being than a person who has never hurt anyone and isn't Christian.  According to the rules of their religion Hitler is in Heaven and Ghandi is in Hell.

Quote from: "hingedro"Would you agree that this movie features a spellbinding performance from Jim Caviezel?

I like movies about old times and old things and preferably epic battles, but that one was a huge disappointment. The acting was decent enough though.

Still, not a top 100 movie in my book. 3/10, maybe a very weak 4.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt""The wages of sin is death" and not hell.

Yes, we must not forget that no matter how good you are, Christians believe you deserve Hell if you don't worship their God and that they deserve Heaven no matter what bad things they do.  They find a murderer pedophile who is a Christian a more worthy human being than a person who has never hurt anyone and isn't Christian.  According to the rules of their religion Hitler is in Heaven and Ghandi is in Hell.

Er.. not really.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Velma"I do wonder, how is it a sacrifice when, in the end, he lost nothing?  He knew how the story was going to end - with him going back to where he came from with more accolades than when he left.  Even if you count his supposed thirty years on earth (including the crucifixion) as part of the 'sacrifice',  it still means nothing in that light.  The story doesn't even pass muster as decent fiction, much less the tale of a deity supposedly come to earth.

That did get me to think about how his last few moments of suffering in no way equates to the eternal suffering those who simply do not believe in him will experience. It seems that those going to hell to suffer for eternity are making a far bigger sacrifice than Jesus ever did. There are even children that go through more suffering than Jesus did for far longer and they've never sinned.

The "God" that created all, is the beginning and the end...comes "down" and subjects Himself to the likeness of His creation, dies the death of a sinner (Whitney, this would answer your question..."The wages of sin is death" and not hell.  Hell can be discussed elsewhere if you like.) without having any sin in Him.  Sin was placed on Him, that through His death, though He had no sin, would pay the debt (death) for ALL who believe.  He chose to do this for His created.  No person with the foreknowledge of cancer and whatever else would choose to die in such a manner.  I dare say, that, yes, there are some that may've suffered more pain and for longer, but no person suffered that pain and had "the weight of the world" put on him/her.  Everyone that has suffered has suffered to their own end.  The beauty of God coming down is that He didn't need to.  His capacity to love (like that one Whitney?    ) is such that it was in His nature to do so.  The sacrifice is that He did so willingly.  And in doing so, He has subjected Himself to the image of His creation...forever human and no longer Spirit or whatever God's form is/was prior.

God, the author of the Law (that condemns the sinner to death) and Judge...Made the Law, Enforces the Law, and HIMSELF pays the price the Law demands in order that ALL can be saved.

Aye, so in relation to the millions of other people that suffered a great deal more for a great deal longer, the "sacrifice" of Jesus really isn't that big of a deal.

This thing you said doesn't really make much sense: "[...]HIMSELF pays the price the Law demands[...]" I did not know that Christians believed Jesus/god was going to hell to suffer for all eternity.

Then another thing: ""The wages of sin is death" and not hell." then what's the big deal, we're all going to die and therefore pay the price of sin, so Jesus made his "sacrifice" for no reason.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt""The wages of sin is death" and not hell.

Yes, we must not forget that no matter how good you are, Christians believe you deserve Hell if you don't worship their God and that they deserve Heaven no matter what bad things they do.  They find a murderer pedophile who is a Christian a more worthy human being than a person who has never hurt anyone and isn't Christian.  According to the rules of their religion Hitler is in Heaven and Ghandi is in Hell.

If you meet a Christian that promotes this, you have just met someone that doesn't understand the Gospel.  Every single person, Christian, Atheist and all categories of human deserve hell (and by hell, I mean ultimately death.)  Worship cannot be given until one believes, so to worship God is useless.  A murderer and/or pedophile (the worst person you can think of), if they are truly sorry and repent of their sin, CAN AND WILL be saved.  There is no sin too great that God cannot forgive, save for ignoring God.  The only sin God cannot forgive is thinking oneself is above God and thus ignoring.

The Gospel is that God has done EVERYTHING needed for you and I to gain salvation.  There's nothing you can DO to obtain it.  You simply believe and submit that God is, and that apart from Him the only thing left is death and nonexistence.  Does this change your life?  It sure does.  It is a gift.

Quote from: "Davin"This thing you said doesn't really make much sense: "[...]HIMSELF pays the price the Law demands[...]" I did not know that Christians believed Jesus/god was going to hell to suffer for all eternity.

I'm of the school of thought that there is a hell, a burning, but that it is not a perpetual burning.  One will burn until dead.  Christ died.  Full stop.  He died the death of a sinner...apart from God.  Sin (all sin) was laid on Him.  That was the "weight of the world".  He died.  God the Father, raised Him up.  Likewise, in Him, we too will be raised up.

Quote from: "Davin"Then another thing: ""The wages of sin is death" and not hell." then what's the big deal, we're all going to die and therefore pay the price of sin, so Jesus made his "sacrifice" for no reason.

Yes, all will certainly pay the price of sin.  Do you WANT an afterlife?  Being IN Christ makes all the difference.  The question then is, do you want to pay yourself, or claim Christ's death as your own payment and live, "even though you die."?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Do you WANT an afterlife?

Well, I, for one, have never really wanted THIS life, not to mention the after-one... Guess I'm in the right worldview then  

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Do you WANT an afterlife?

Well, I, for one, have never really wanted THIS life, not to mention the after-one... Guess I'm in the right worldview then  

You sure are.  If the choice really does exist, the choice has been made.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Davin"This thing you said doesn't really make much sense: "[...]HIMSELF pays the price the Law demands[...]" I did not know that Christians believed Jesus/god was going to hell to suffer for all eternity.

I'm of the school of thought that there is a hell, a burning, but that it is not a perpetual burning.  One will burn until dead.  Christ died.  Full stop.  He died the death of a sinner...apart from God.  Sin (all sin) was laid on Him.  That was the "weight of the world".  He died.  God the Father, raised Him up.  Likewise, in Him, we too will be raised up.

That doesn't sound so bad.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Davin"Then another thing: ""The wages of sin is death" and not hell." then what's the big deal, we're all going to die and therefore pay the price of sin, so Jesus made his "sacrifice" for no reason.

Yes, all will certainly pay the price of sin.

So Jesus suffering a little bit doesn't even matter.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Do you WANT an afterlife?

Doesn't matter what I might want reality to be, reality is what it is no matter what I want it to be. So no, I do not want an afterlife and more than I don't want there to be an after life... in that I want neither an afterlife or the lack thereof.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Being IN Christ makes all the difference.  The question then is, do you want to pay yourself, or claim Christ's death as your own payment and live, "even though you die."?

Why would I make someone else pay for me? That sounds very selfish, I'd rather pay for my own stuff. If all I have to do is go through what Jesus went through to pay for whatever it is that you think I must pay for, then I'm all for it.

Quote from: "hingedro"Would you agree that this movie features a spellbinding performance from Jim Caviezel?

I'll admit, I saw it in the theater and I liked it. I don't much care for it now, but at the time, I thought it was pretty moving. I did, however, upon walking out of the theater and seeing all the people in line for the next showing, say quite loudly "He dies at the end!" It got a few good laughs.

Caviezel's performance was good. Where the heck did that guy go? IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001029/) only has him in 6 movies since starring in the 55th all time grossing movie worldwide (http://www.imdb.com/boxoffice/alltimegross?region=world-wide)? Seems weird.

Quote from: "Davin"Then another thing: ""The wages of sin is death" and not hell." then what's the big deal, we're all going to die and therefore pay the price of sin, so Jesus made his "sacrifice" for no reason.

Point of clarification. This passage means that "death" is eternal separation from god. I had that pounded into my brain over and over growing up. In this case, they know everyone will die, but the wages of sin is eternal separation from the big guy.

Either way, it's not a very nice way to scare people into believing in god.


And now we return you back to your movie. How about the "Passion of the Christ in 3D"? There's a thought.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Every single person, Christian, Atheist and all categories of human deserve hell (and by hell, I mean ultimately death.)

Is this why some Christians have a problem with empathy and view it as a bad thing?  How does believing all humans are worthless pieces of shit affect your feelings toward humans?  Do you still feel compassion for human beings?

....aaaaand we go back to our movie......
 

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Being IN Christ makes all the difference.  The question then is, do you want to pay yourself, or claim Christ's death as your own payment and live, "even though you die."?

Why would I make someone else pay for me? That sounds very selfish, I'd rather pay for my own stuff. If all I have to do is go through what Jesus went through to pay for whatever it is that you think I must pay for, then I'm all for it.

I suspect, then, that you don't accept any gifts during this Christian season of giving as that would be much to selfish of you.

Yes, you can and will pay for your sin, as the Bible says.  You can do it all yourself.  You can be just like Christ and die as a result of sin.  The problem is you have no power to raise yourself up.  Only God has that power and therein is the difference.  But as you've said, you have no problem doing so.  I'm "gambling" on something different/better.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Every single person, Christian, Atheist and all categories of human deserve hell (and by hell, I mean ultimately death.)

Is this why some Christians have a problem with empathy and view it as a bad thing?  How does believing all humans are worthless pieces of shit affect your feelings toward humans?  Do you still feel compassion for human beings?

Thank God (heh) He doesn't feel the same way else He wouldn't have thought us important enough to die for, aye?  If I'm a worthless piece of shit like the rest of humanity, what makes me think I'm better than you?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Kylyssa"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Every single person, Christian, Atheist and all categories of human deserve hell (and by hell, I mean ultimately death.)

Is this why some Christians have a problem with empathy and view it as a bad thing?  How does believing all humans are worthless pieces of shit affect your feelings toward humans?  Do you still feel compassion for human beings?

Thank God (heh) He doesn't feel the same way else He wouldn't have thought us important enough to die for, aye?  If I'm a worthless piece of shit like the rest of humanity, what makes me think I'm better than you?

I don't know what makes you feel you are better than I am.  I don't think you are, nor do I think I am better than you.  How about you answer the question about how your belief that people are worthless pieces of shit affect your feelings of empathy?  Do you feel less inclined to help people because you believe they are all unworthy?

I was thinking of watching the Passion of the Christ if it were available instantly on Netflix but sadly Mel Gibson did not think it necessary to make the movie easily available to he masses.  My guess is moves you have to actually mail out produce more revenue than digital download; or he doesn't care about the environment enough to make his company send netflix the digital rights....or he's just crazy, which would be a pretty good bet too.

NSFW:
[youtube:a5u3lyst]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yABzxK9rRqk[/youtube:a5u3lyst]

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Being IN Christ makes all the difference.  The question then is, do you want to pay yourself, or claim Christ's death as your own payment and live, "even though you die."?

Why would I make someone else pay for me? That sounds very selfish, I'd rather pay for my own stuff. If all I have to do is go through what Jesus went through to pay for whatever it is that you think I must pay for, then I'm all for it.

I suspect, then, that you don't accept any gifts during this Christian season of giving as that would be much to selfish of you.

Yes, you can and will pay for your sin, as the Bible says.  You can do it all yourself.  You can be just like Christ and die as a result of sin.  The problem is you have no power to raise yourself up.  Only God has that power and therein is the difference.  But as you've said, you have no problem doing so.  I'm "gambling" on something different/better.

Oh, a 'free' gift* to get us out of a mess that he created.  I see.  Sounds rather manipulative and controlling to me.

*Terms and conditions apply.  See your local church.  However, God is not responsible for any contradictory or misleading information found either there or in his holy book.  You are responsible for making sure that you have followed the correct formula.  Failure to follow the correct formula will result in eternal damnation.

Quote from: "Whitney"....or he's just crazy, which would be a pretty good bet too.

As much as I like the film, I'm inclined to agree with you on this.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"I don't know what makes you feel you are better than I am.  I don't think you are, nor do I think I am better than you.  How about you answer the question about how your belief that people are worthless pieces of shit affect your feelings of empathy?  Do you feel less inclined to help people because you believe they are all unworthy?

Did I make it sound like I was claiming to be better than you or anyone?  Oops.  The exact opposite.  I'm not.

On the contrary, because we are all in the same boat, I feel the same hurt and sadness anyone would feel for a person in pain, or loss...we are called to share the Good News, help first, give good news after.

Quote from: "Velma"Oh, a 'free' gift* to get us out of a mess that he created. I see. Sounds rather manipulative and controlling to me.

Manipulative?  How so, if He made the rules, if you will, set the standard, set the punishment and then paid the punishment for all.  One need only accept.  How is that manipulative.  He not only made it possible, but "fixed" it that no one who wants can miss out.

So the god of the bible set up a game with rules that involved him creating the disease, the cure, the rules for applying the cure, and then punishing for eternity those who see the absurdity of this game?  

Sorry, still don't see any evidence that it's true - and certainly don't see any evidence that it's anything more than a device created to control people with threats of punishment.

...aaaand, LAST TIME...back on topic, EVERYONE! This is a thread about a movie. No more derailing it.

Quote from: "Velma"So the god of the bible set up a game with rules that involved him creating the disease, the cure, the rules for applying the cure, and then punishing for eternity those who see the absurdity of this game?  

Sorry, still don't see any evidence that it's true - and certainly don't see any evidence that it's anything more than a device created to control people with threats of punishment.

Wouldn't control be forcing your choice.  As I see it, you're not being controlled at all.  Instead you are free to dismiss it.  Yet you feel controlled.  If it is a game and you're in it...apparently "God" doensn't have a very good controller to manipulating you in this so called game.  Where is your logic on the control issue?

If you want to use the game analogy, please tell me how He's controlling your moves on this game board.

Quote from: "McQ"...aaaand, LAST TIME...back on topic, EVERYONE! This is a thread about a movie. No more derailing it.

Isn't the movie about "God" and His Passion?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "McQ"...aaaand, LAST TIME...back on topic, EVERYONE! This is a thread about a movie. No more derailing it.

Isn't the movie about "God" and His Passion?

I think it looks like a movie about how can we use up all the fake blood in the props department...

The OP was equally as serious    in asking

Quote from: "hingedro"Would you agree that this movie features a spellbinding performance from Jim Caviezel?

So if you want to discuss the topic more deeply you can start a new thread (remembering that preaching is against the rules).

Quote from: "Whitney"(remembering that preaching is against the rules).

It seems like this is for me.  If so, I'm not trying to preach here.  At least two people made comments on the aspects of the subject of the movie and not the movie itself.  I chose to clarify that and questions came as a result.

I apologize if it sounded as though I was using this to preach.  I assumed I could answer questions and/or at least clarify from my viewpoint.  Sorry if that is out of line.

I love this movie.  I think of it like Indiana Jones movies.  Sure, the Ark of the Covenant doesn't really  do that humming thing and that melting flesh off bone thing, but it's fun, just like many other ficitonal stories I've read or watched.  Millions love Harry Potter, and most don't actually believe there's a Hogwarts magic school or anything.

One thing I think Christians who try to sell the "believe in Jesus or go to hell forever" thing need to realize is that their own book (this is especially for those word-for-word believers) says there's a way to get to heaven by works (Revelation).  The second judgment.  The book of life.  It even mentions which specific things would keep you out of the book of life (murder, rape, etc.).  So I guess Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and us heathen atheists can get there too.  No matter how hard you Christians try, you can't keep that little bastard Gandhi out of heaven!

Quote from: "fester30"Millions love Harry Potter, and most don't actually believe there's a Hogwarts magic school or anything.

Most!?  

That's what I said, most.  There are Harry Potter nuts out there that actually believe there's a magical hidden place in England where magicians go to school and shop and such.  I thought Trekkies were bad, but at least at a Trek convention, the people there believe the stuff in the shows and movies are in our FUTURE, not that they've already happened.

This movie doesn't qualify as torture porn.  There is a movie subtly titled "Antichrist" which is directed by a frenchman and stars Willem Dafoe, now that is exploitative torture porn.

Btw Animated Dirt, I'm not tryin to call you out but I enjoy theological debates ha

the only sin that cannot be forgiven is 'blaspheming the Holy Spirit'

The Passion Of The Christ is just a very successful snuff film.

Quote from: "hingedro"Would you agree that this movie features a spellbinding performance from Jim Caviezel?

I guess so. It must be difficult to act like you're in constant blinding agony for the duration of a three month shoot.

It was gorier than most (if not all) horror films i've ever seen. In itself, i have no problem with that although i wouldn't usually choose to watch anything like it. Mel Gibson is infatuated with gore anyway, so, I saw that coming a mile off.

My reservations with the film was the certificate it got and the fact that parents (and teachers) willingly took their six-year-old children to see it. The thought that kids were being forced to see gore porn just because it was about jebus royally pissed me off.

A lot of people got nailed up without the delusion they were 33.33333% god.
I think mere people have suffered worse fates, often at the hands of people wearing a cross.
This is 2011, to impress me a deity has to do better than a single day of pain.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"A lot of people got nailed up without the delusion they were 33.33333% god.
I think mere people have suffered worse fates, often at the hands of people wearing a cross.
This is 2011, to impress me a deity has to do better than a single day of pain.

Indeed. Dying for someone is admirable but creating the cure for cancer garners more merit, in my book.

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"A lot of people got nailed up without the delusion they were 33.33333% god.
I think mere people have suffered worse fates, often at the hands of people wearing a cross.
This is 2011, to impress me a deity has to do better than a single day of pain.

Indeed. Dying for someone is admirable but creating the cure for cancer garners more merit, in my book.

If god is god it created cancer and cancer sufferers who would say a day on a cross is an easy way out.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "karadan"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"A lot of people got nailed up without the delusion they were 33.33333% god.
I think mere people have suffered worse fates, often at the hands of people wearing a cross.
This is 2011, to impress me a deity has to do better than a single day of pain.

Indeed. Dying for someone is admirable but creating the cure for cancer garners more merit, in my book.

If god is god it created cancer and cancer sufferers who would say a day on a cross is an easy way out.

That's something else I don't understand about the crucifixtion story.

Two days in Hell, and one day, or, more accurately, around six hours on the cross. (Minus the previous tortures.)

So that's three days of suffering as compared with an eternity in a burning fire or as opposed to people today who are suffering from diseases? Noble that such a man would be willing to let himself be tortured for the sake of another, but there are many more undergoing MUCH more pain.

Quote from: "ForTheLoveOfAll"So that's three days of suffering as compared with an eternity in a burning fire or as opposed to people today who are suffering from diseases? Noble that such a man would be willing to let himself be tortured for the sake of another, but there are many more undergoing MUCH more pain.

Which is a great argument for those Christians that believe that Hell is a place of perpetual suffering.  If God suffered the price of sin for all, then one can rightly assume the price of sin is exactly what the Bible says it is.  The wages of sin is death.  The "eternal" part is not in the suffering, but in the finality of the punishment.  Eternal fire is not a fire that lasts forever.  It is a fire that, while there is anything to consume, it will burn.  (cf. Jude 1:7)

The thing I do not understand about christ's death is that they say he died for our sins. Doesnt' that mean that now I do not have to worry about sinning or not? I mean if he paid for my sins I should be able to sin without worry, right? Do you all get what i'm trying to say? So I can now go out and sin my little ass off and say, "It's all right everyone! Jesus payed for that!"  

Quote from: "father nicetouch"The thing I do not understand about christ's death is that they say he died for our sins. Doesnt' that mean that now I do not have to worry about sinning or not? I mean if he paid for my sins I should be able to sin without worry, right? Do you all get what i'm trying to say? So I can now go out and sin my little ass off and say, "It's all right everyone! Jesus payed for that!"  

Sin is a struggle...no doubt.

"A Christian is always a sinner, always a penitent, always right with God."

Understand this, practice it, you will be saved.
No longer will you sin simply to say, "It's all right everyone! Jesus payed for that!"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "father nicetouch"The thing I do not understand about christ's death is that they say he died for our sins. Doesnt' that mean that now I do not have to worry about sinning or not? I mean if he paid for my sins I should be able to sin without worry, right? Do you all get what i'm trying to say? So I can now go out and sin my little ass off and say, "It's all right everyone! Jesus payed for that!"   :drool

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Christians just use Jesus as a way to feel better after you sin.  

I'm glad you have this 'truth' to keep you warm.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Christians just use Jesus as a way to feel better after you sin.  :verysad:

Quote from: "father nicetouch"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Christians just use Jesus as a way to feel better after you sin.  :verysad:

It's ohkay, you have fellow heathens like myself to keep you company either way.  

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Somthing tells me you don't really think i have the truth and you are making fun of me.  

It's truth as you see it...and if discussing our differences without snide remarks, I can easily show how I do respect it.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Somthing tells me you don't really think i have the truth and you are making fun of me.  

It's truth as you see it...and if discussing our differences without snide remarks, I can easily show how I do respect it.[/quote]                                                                                                  

 now, now, do not take my snide remarks as insults! Its all in good fun! I respect every bodies beliefs! Most of my family are christians and we get along just fine! "Animateddirt" i like the name! Very creative!

Quote from: "father nicetouch"now, now, do not take my snide remarks as insults! Its all in good fun! I respect every bodies beliefs! Most of my family are christians and we get along just fine! "Animateddirt" i like the name! Very creative!

This sounds a lot like the "I'm not racist...some of my best friends are Black" line.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "father nicetouch"now, now, do not take my snide remarks as insults! Its all in good fun! I respect every bodies beliefs! Most of my family are christians and we get along just fine! "Animateddirt" i like the name! Very creative!

This sounds a lot like the "I'm not racist...some of my best friends are Black" line.

There you go! It's some thing like that! You got it!  

Quote from: "father nicetouch"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "father nicetouch"now, now, do not take my snide remarks as insults! Its all in good fun! I respect every bodies beliefs! Most of my family are christians and we get along just fine! "Animateddirt" i like the name! Very creative!

This sounds a lot like the "I'm not racist...some of my best friends are Black" line.

There you go! It's some thing like that! You got it!  

Your "good fun" isn't respect at all, if it was, ad hominem attacks would be rampant as anyone could claim, "Oh come on, it's just all in good fun."

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Don't take my snide remarks as insults!

(my emphasis)

Quotesnide, snidey
adjective- nasty, sneering, malicious, mean, cynical, unkind, hurtful, sarcastic, disparaging, spiteful, insinuating, scornful, shrewish, ill-natured He made a snide comment about her weight.

[/i][/color]
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/snide

When you, yourself, define the nature of your remarks, what am I to do?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quotesnide, snidey
adjective- nasty, sneering, malicious, mean, cynical, unkind, hurtful, sarcastic, disparaging, spiteful, insinuating, scornful, shrewish, ill-natured He made a snide comment about her weight.

[/i][/color]
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/snide

When you, yourself, define the nature of your remarks, what am I to do?

"Note to self: do not joke with "AnimatedDirt", not only uses the bible as a weapon but also the thesaurus!"

Quote from: "father nicetouch"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quotesnide, snidey
adjective- nasty, sneering, malicious, mean, cynical, unkind, hurtful, sarcastic, disparaging, spiteful, insinuating, scornful, shrewish, ill-natured He made a snide comment about her weight.

[/i][/color]
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/snide

When you, yourself, define the nature of your remarks, what am I to do?

"Note to self: do not joke with "AnimatedDirt", not only uses the bible as a weapon but also the thesaurus!"

Note to those in this thread: Do not make ad hom attacks, and keep your discussions civil. Remember that simply trashing someone's points via insult is not civil discourse.

This thread has gone way off track anyway, so keep it to the discussion of the OP.

Quote from: "father nicetouch""Note to self: do not joke with "AnimatedDirt", not only uses the bible as a weapon but also the thesaurus!"

By all means, use humor.  Just don't be snide or use ad hominem (type) attacks to make your point by taking a point completely out of context and obvious meaning.  I've slipped up and am not perfect in discussion.  But I must be more on my guard here as I hold a belief opposed to the vast majority on this forum.  If I slip, call me on it and I'll gladly and publically seek forgiveness for my insensitivity to your beliefs/thoughts/ideas/disbelief.

The Bible is not a weapon, but a basis of why I believe what I believe.

Well, i ment on offense, animateddirt. Really. And like McQ said we did go off topic. So back to the topic in hand. If Jesus was real and died to pay for our sins, then why do we have to stay sin free? Would'nt his death be in vain if we didn't sin?

I have always been under the impression that Jesus's suffering mostly refers to something else than the actual bodily torture by the Romans? To the suffering under the weight of sins, perhaps? Or to the suffering he endured in Hell? In this light then, the movie, in concentrating in his earthly suffering, belittle's the meaning of the true passions of the Christ? At least some of my religiously inclined friends thought so.

Quote from: "Guest"I have always been under the impression that Jesus's suffering mostly refers to something else than the actual bodily torture by the Romans? To the suffering under the weight of sins, perhaps? Or to the suffering he endured in Hell? In this light then, the movie, in concentrating in his earthly suffering, belittle's the meaning of the true passions of the Christ? At least some of my religiously inclined friends thought so.

Jesus went to hell?
How did I miss that?
I'd like to hear more about Jesus in hell.
What did he do to get himself there?
How did he get out?
Was he so boring or annoying Satan kicked him out?

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "Guest"I have always been under the impression that Jesus's suffering mostly refers to something else than the actual bodily torture by the Romans? To the suffering under the weight of sins, perhaps? Or to the suffering he endured in Hell? In this light then, the movie, in concentrating in his earthly suffering, belittle's the meaning of the true passions of the Christ? At least some of my religiously inclined friends thought so.

Jesus went to hell?
How did I miss that?
I'd like to hear more about Jesus in hell.
What did he do to get himself there?
How did he get out?
Was he so boring or annoying Satan kicked him out?

I'm not that familiar with the theology, but in any case I think it was more to do with spiritual suffering, rather than this ordinary kind, depicted and emphazised in the movie by Mel.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Jesus went to hell?
How did I miss that?
I'd like to hear more about Jesus in hell.
What did he do to get himself there?
How did he get out?
Was he so boring or annoying Satan kicked him out?

To many in the Christian faith, Hell is a place of perpetual agony and rightly so, it does seem to be so from some passages of scripture.  However, no where is it more clear on what "hell" is than in texts that don't necessarily seem to be speaking of hell exactly.

Quote from: "John 3:16  NIV"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Quote from: "Romans 6:23  NIV"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It is quite clear that while hell is real, it is not for perpetual agony, but brings about infinite death.  Hell brings about death and ultimately total and complete separation from that which gives life.  God.

In this sense, Christ did go to hell.  He "ministered" to the saints in hell in that through His death brought life and made their faith in a coming Messiah, complete.  No longer were they abandoned to hell (the grave), but now, while still dead and in the grave, were assured a part in Christ's coming when He will resurrect those that died with faith in Him/His death for them.

I hope this helps, The Magic Pudding.  

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Well, i ment on offense, animateddirt. Really. And like McQ said we did go off topic. So back to the topic in hand. If Jesus was real and died to pay for our sins, then why do we have to stay sin free? Would'nt his death be in vain if we didn't sin?

This is a good question and one, I think, deserves an answer.

The short answer is we can't even stay sin-free if we wanted to.  

It's much like a son or daughter going out and spending mom and/or dad's money irresponsibly.  Maxing out credit cards, driving irresponsibly, maybe a drunk driving charge...so on.  The parent(s) can and might come and pay everything off for their child and the child should appreciate it and learn.  (making this short as it can drag)  Let's say the child does this again and again the parent(s) come and pay for their child's irresponsibility.  Shouldn't the child have learned their lesson?  If they had truly been sorry for their actions the first time, one might assume it wouldn't happen again.  Ok, so let's give the child the benefit of the doubt.  The parent(s) pay the second time because they love their child.  The child says sorry and repents that what they've done.  Time goes on and guess what, the child does it again only this time the the parent(s) is barely able to cover the debt.  Not only is the child spending money irresponsibly, but the child is falling deeper and deeper into some bad areas.  The parent(s) again pay it all for their child and at the same time, are ruinning their own living by constantly saving this child.  Why?  They must love this child more than the pain, grief, and monetary cost to them.

This cycle keeps going on and on.  What are your thoughts concerning the "sorry-ness" of the child in doing what he/she is doing?  Is there any real repentance on their part?  What is the right thing for the child to do?

The point is, not that the child will never ever slip up again on irresponsible spending or bad decisons in life.  The point is that the trend SHOULD curve away from that which is not right.  If, then, Christ paid a one time fee that pays for every single sin of humanity from beginning to end, past, present and future sins, is it not correct that the recipient of this gift, if truly repentant would at least show a trend to being less sinful?  If you've ever been a Christian, you'll know that we are never free from sin.  It is part of our nature and cannot remove sin at all.  So while we are yet sinners, Christ covers us.  We can only be covered if we take His death as our own and show a trend that we truly believe it.  Will we continue to sin?  Yes.  Will we even continue to sin knowing we are sinning?  Yes.  However, we cannot and should not have the trend show that we sin JUST BECAUSE our sin is paid for.  That would show we are much like the child that continues to bleed their parent(s) of money and peace of mind.

Is it a matter of brownie points, tic marks on a ledger sheet, the good outnumbering the bad....?  No.  Evidence for this?  The thief on the cross.  For his whole life (assuming) he was what he is.  A thief.  Being on the cross means he was guilty and deserved what society sentenced him to.  But he came to his senses.  Saw his own deceit and repented of his sin, putting his faith in Christ.  As long as it is a true repentance, deathbed confessions are worthy of salvation.  It seems unfair.  It might be to the human mind not knowing another's mind.  If God created us, then only He knows the heart's true intentions.  

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Would'nt his death be in vain if we didn't sin?

Christ's death would be in vain if we did as the child did.  It means we never really loved and cherished our parent(s) but instead saw them as simply a means to get me out of my own irresponsible actions that I love more than I love them.  This would be proof of where our heart truly is.

The analogy isn't perfect, however I think it gives a good basis for answering your question.

I noticed a theological conversation and had to jump in haha

Jesus never went to hell.  Many people like to depict him as "Jesus Christ Superstar" going into the bowels of hell and slaying demons and whatnot.  But as indicated in Luke 23:43 "Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”" He did not say, oh sorry you can't come today, you'll have to wait.  The insinuation was on that day, at the hour of their death, they would ascend into Heaven

The suffering on the Cross is an interesting topic with many deep thoughts.  Even as the Father has forsaken him, that he may experience the separation of God unto death so that whoever believes in him will not have to worry about that.  Some evidence of this is when Stephen the first martyr is about to be stoned, and as he's about to die he sees Jesus, no separation unto death.  So there is also the strange dichotomous relationship, fully god and fully man.  SO as Jesus was in full nature God and was one in essence with the father, how could the father forsake him?  This is due to the nature of being fully man.  Jesus was exersizing his humanity.  Not that the spirit had left him, but that his flesh (humanity) was due punishment but not on his being as God.  This is an interesting concept even the apostle Paul made no evidence of grasping (as far as I'm aware of, I couldn't find the verse I was looking for, please rebuke me).  So the humanity of Jesus experience the separation of God all the way till death. He experienced the torment of a single moment without God so we don't have to.

But what really is an interesting concept is the resurrection.  I'm not going to go into the physical nature of this, but the philosophical.  Jesus did not have to resurrect to be the savior of mankind.  The payment of sin was payable on Christ's death.  So why did he have to rise? a few things 1. To show his power over death 2. to fulfill what he had said 3. To save us to something more.  The last one is the most interesting.  Christ resurrected so that he may, in his death, impart his life to us so that we may live and live victoriously over sin and death as he did, also as indicated above, so that we may never have separation from God. But, I am not saying our beings have changed to not be sinful, for Jesus did not come to make bad people good.  He came to make dead people live.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Well, i ment on offense, animateddirt. Really. And like McQ said we did go off topic. So back to the topic in hand. If Jesus was real and died to pay for our sins, then why do we have to stay sin free? Would'nt his death be in vain if we didn't sin?

This is a good question and one, I think, deserves an answer.

The short answer is we can't even stay sin-free if we wanted to.  

It's much like a son or daughter going out and spending mom and/or dad's money irresponsibly.  Maxing out credit cards, driving irresponsibly, maybe a drunk driving charge...so on.  The parent(s) can and might come and pay everything off for their child and the child should appreciate it and learn.  (making this short as it can drag)  Let's say the child does this again and again the parent(s) come and pay for their child's irresponsibility.  Shouldn't the child have learned their lesson?  If they had truly been sorry for their actions the first time, one might assume it wouldn't happen again.  Ok, so let's give the child the benefit of the doubt.  The parent(s) pay the second time because they love their child.  The child says sorry and repents that what they've done.  Time goes on and guess what, the child does it again only this time the the parent(s) is barely able to cover the debt.  Not only is the child spending money irresponsibly, but the child is falling deeper and deeper into some bad areas.  The parent(s) again pay it all for their child and at the same time, are ruinning their own living by constantly saving this child.  Why?  They must love this child more than the pain, grief, and monetary cost to them.

This cycle keeps going on and on.  What are your thoughts concerning the "sorry-ness" of the child in doing what he/she is doing?  Is there any real repentance on their part?  What is the right thing for the child to do?

The point is, not that the child will never ever slip up again on irresponsible spending or bad decisons in life.  The point is that the trend SHOULD curve away from that which is not right.  If, then, Christ paid a one time fee that pays for every single sin of humanity from beginning to end, past, present and future sins, is it not correct that the recipient of this gift, if truly repentant would at least show a trend to being less sinful?  If you've ever been a Christian, you'll know that we are never free from sin.  It is part of our nature and cannot remove sin at all.  So while we are yet sinners, Christ covers us.  We can only be covered if we take His death as our own and show a trend that we truly believe it.  Will we continue to sin?  Yes.  Will we even continue to sin knowing we are sinning?  Yes.  However, we cannot and should not have the trend show that we sin JUST BECAUSE our sin is paid for.  That would show we are much like the child that continues to bleed their parent(s) of money and peace of mind.

Is it a matter of brownie points, tic marks on a ledger sheet, the good outnumbering the bad....?  No.  Evidence for this?  The thief on the cross.  For his whole life (assuming) he was what he is.  A thief.  Being on the cross means he was guilty and deserved what society sentenced him to.  But he came to his senses.  Saw his own deceit and repented of his sin, putting his faith in Christ.  As long as it is a true repentance, deathbed confessions are worthy of salvation.  It seems unfair.  It might be to the human mind not knowing another's mind.  If God created us, then only He knows the heart's true intentions.  

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Would'nt his death be in vain if we didn't sin?

Christ's death would be in vain if we did as the child did.  It means we never really loved and cherished our parent(s) but instead saw them as simply a means to get me out of my own irresponsible actions that I love more than I love them.  This would be proof of where our heart truly is.

The analogy isn't perfect, however I think it gives a good basis for answering your question.

All of that comes with common sense. I don't need a figment of some religious persons imagination to tell me how to live. The difference is, if i fuck up, i feel bad about it. That's my conscience speaking. There doesn't need to be a pre-existing supernatural rule to tell me what i did was bad.

I don't need a religious rule book to tell me how to do what already comes naturally. It's an over-complication of a simple human trait - morality. I'm CERTAINLY not going to live my life with the notion that i'm already bad and that i have to keep notching up brownie points until the day i die. That's just bullshit. Besides, if i needed that to drive the good in me, any of my good deeds would be completely insincere. Therefore, i consider any deeply religious person to have very high ratios of insincerity because any benevolent deed they do is not done for the sake of it, but to score points with god as to gain better seats in heaven. That, to me, is the very definition of asinine.

It's nice to know many religious people aren't able to be good for the sake of it. At least then, i know not to trust most of them. It's quite a time-saver in social situations!

Quote from: "defendor"But what really is an interesting concept is the resurrection.  I'm not going to go into the physical nature of this, but the philosophical.  Jesus did not have to resurrect to be the savior of mankind.  The payment of sin was payable on Christ's death.  So why did he have to rise? a few things 1. To show his power over death 2. to fulfill what he had said 3. To save us to something more.  The last one is the most interesting.  Christ resurrected so that he may, in his death, impart his life to us so that we may live and live victoriously over sin and death as he did, also as indicated above, so that we may never have separation from God. But, I am not saying our beings have changed to not be sinful, for Jesus did not come to make bad people good.  He came to make dead people live.

See, the main difference between you and me is:

You have to live your life by a rule book written by the supernatural. Your world is based upon a plethora of complicated rules and regulations you've been told to adhere to.
I live my life based upon the real and observable world. The rule book I live my life upon isn't a book. It's a few simple notions inherited from my parents and friends.

All the mental energy you've wasted trying to reconcile your beliefs with reality is the time I've spent enriching my mind appreciating the beauty of existence.

Quote from: "defendor"I noticed a theological conversation and had to jump in haha

Jesus never went to hell.  Many people like to depict him as "Jesus Christ Superstar" going into the bowels of hell and slaying demons and whatnot.  But as indicated in Luke 23:43 "Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” " He did not say, oh sorry you can't come today, you'll have to wait.  The insinuation was on that day, at the hour of their death, they would ascend into Heaven

The suffering on the Cross is an interesting topic with many deep thoughts.  Even as the Father has forsaken him, that he may experience the separation of God unto death so that whoever believes in him will not have to worry about that.  Some evidence of this is when Stephen the first martyr is about to be stoned, and as he's about to die he sees Jesus, no separation unto death.  So there is also the strange dichotomous relationship, fully god and fully man.  SO as Jesus was in full nature God and was one in essence with the father, how could the father forsake him?  This is due to the nature of being fully man.  Jesus was exersizing his humanity.  Not that the spirit had left him, but that his flesh (humanity) was due punishment but not on his being as God.  This is an interesting concept even the apostle Paul made no evidence of grasping (as far as I'm aware of, I couldn't find the verse I was looking for, please rebuke me).  So the humanity of Jesus experience the separation of God all the way till death. He experienced the torment of a single moment without God so we don't have to.

But what really is an interesting concept is the resurrection.  I'm not going to go into the physical nature of this, but the philosophical.  Jesus did not have to resurrect to be the savior of mankind.  The payment of sin was payable on Christ's death.  So why did he have to rise? a few things 1. To show his power over death 2. to fulfill what he had said 3. To save us to something more.  The last one is the most interesting.  Christ resurrected so that he may, in his death, impart his life to us so that we may live and live victoriously over sin and death as he did, also as indicated above, so that we may never have separation from God. But, I am not saying our beings have changed to not be sinful, for Jesus did not come to make bad people good.  He came to make dead people live.

Theologically, this is where we part.  (I feel a bunch of comments coming from the skeptic side...heh) While I figure we are both of the belief in the basics (saved by grace through faith, by Christ alone, not anything of ourselves), which is of most importance, the details are what separate our thinking.

First bold:  Try reading that without commas and by moving the comma around.  (I don't think there was punctuation in the original) I'm not saying dogmatically "I'm right", however one must conclude that there may be a different way of reading and understanding that one sentence. (also in light of other instances of death and heaven) If it is different from your take above, that in itself could change the course of beliefs/interpretation of certain ideas.

Second bold:  I disagree 100%.  Simply if Christ died and wasn't resurrected, we have no hope in resurrection.  Furthermore, if Christ/God can die and isn't able to resurrect Himself or His Son (whichever way you see it) then how can He resurrect a human?  Our Christian faith is based on His death and most importantly, His resurrection.  We don't have a faith in a dead God, but a living God.  What would faith be if it was on the dead if "the dead know nothing" ?  It is my conclusion that Christ HAD to be resurrected to then be able to impart salvation.  Maybe I'm not understanding what you wrote above.  The bolded statement is a stand-alone statement, however.

As I said, If you believe this, doesn't necessarily change the basics since Christ was raised on that Sunday morning.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "defendor"I noticed a theological conversation and had to jump in haha

Jesus never went to hell.  Many people like to depict him as "Jesus Christ Superstar" going into the bowels of hell and slaying demons and whatnot.  But as indicated in Luke 23:43 "Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” " He did not say, oh sorry you can't come today, you'll have to wait.  The insinuation was on that day, at the hour of their death, they would ascend into Heaven

The suffering on the Cross is an interesting topic with many deep thoughts.  Even as the Father has forsaken him, that he may experience the separation of God unto death so that whoever believes in him will not have to worry about that.  Some evidence of this is when Stephen the first martyr is about to be stoned, and as he's about to die he sees Jesus, no separation unto death.  So there is also the strange dichotomous relationship, fully god and fully man.  SO as Jesus was in full nature God and was one in essence with the father, how could the father forsake him?  This is due to the nature of being fully man.  Jesus was exersizing his humanity.  Not that the spirit had left him, but that his flesh (humanity) was due punishment but not on his being as God.  This is an interesting concept even the apostle Paul made no evidence of grasping (as far as I'm aware of, I couldn't find the verse I was looking for, please rebuke me).  So the humanity of Jesus experience the separation of God all the way till death. He experienced the torment of a single moment without God so we don't have to.

But what really is an interesting concept is the resurrection.  I'm not going to go into the physical nature of this, but the philosophical.  Jesus did not have to resurrect to be the savior of mankind.  The payment of sin was payable on Christ's death.  So why did he have to rise? a few things 1. To show his power over death 2. to fulfill what he had said 3. To save us to something more.  The last one is the most interesting.  Christ resurrected so that he may, in his death, impart his life to us so that we may live and live victoriously over sin and death as he did, also as indicated above, so that we may never have separation from God. But, I am not saying our beings have changed to not be sinful, for Jesus did not come to make bad people good.  He came to make dead people live.

Theologically, this is where we part.  (I feel a bunch of comments coming from the skeptic side...heh) While I figure we are both of the belief in the basics (saved by grace through faith, by Christ alone, not anything of ourselves), which is of most importance, the details are what separate our thinking.

First bold:  Try reading that without commas and by moving the comma around.  (I don't think there was punctuation in the original) I'm not saying dogmatically "I'm right", however one must conclude that there may be a different way of reading and understanding that one sentence. (also in light of other instances of death and heaven) If it is different from your take above, that in itself could change the course of beliefs/interpretation of certain ideas.

Second bold:  I disagree 100%.  Simply if Christ died and wasn't resurrected, we have no hope in resurrection.  Furthermore, if Christ/God can die and isn't able to resurrect Himself or His Son (whichever way you see it) then how can He resurrect a human?  Our Christian faith is based on His death and most importantly, His resurrection.  We don't have a faith in a dead God, but a living God.  What would faith be if it was on the dead if "the dead know nothing" ?  It is my conclusion that Christ HAD to be resurrected to then be able to impart salvation.  Maybe I'm not understanding what you wrote above.  The bolded statement is a stand-alone statement, however.

As I said, If you believe this, doesn't necessarily change the basics since Christ was raised on that Sunday morning.

   Karadan, I agree with you in everything you said. We do not need some book to tell us we need to be good to be good. A good person will do good things no matter what! But we were talking about what Christ’s death on the cross meant.

Wow! Two Christians going at it! Hell yeah! I haven’t seen this sense Sunday school! JK!

   Well, first I get what you mean with the analogy of the kids being bad and I know that Christ death was a sacrifice for all mankind. Because back in the day they used to sacrifice animals to wash away their sins and Christ’s death on the cross was the last sacrifise. I understand all that. But wouldn’t it be easier if he just came down and said, “Ok, no more animal sacrifices! Just ask for forgiveness and all is forgiven!” instead of actually be crucified? Why did there have to be a human sacrifice? Why does God have to be so blood thirsty? Those are things that make no sense to me at all. If God is all powerful, why does he have to make everything so complicated?

Animated Dirt- I agree with the first bold, but as for the sacrificial atonement and the second bold, you have to look at what scripture says, I'm not sure on the verse, but the sacrificial system was set up that the payment of sin was death, not resurrection.  To my understanding, the payment of sin was fulfilled on the Cross, but the impartation of the spirit came as the resurrection.  I agree with you, it would really not be much of saving as to pull a drowning person to the surface but Christ also pulls us in the boat (proverbially) So I agree with that statement that the resurrection is essential to instilling the hope of the resurrection and eternal life etc.  But the payment of sin was payed 3 days earlier as the wages of sin are death.

QuoteYou have to live your life by a rule book written by the supernatural. Your world is based upon a plethora of complicated rules and regulations you've been told to adhere to.
I live my life based upon the real and observable world. The rule book I live my life upon isn't a book. It's a few simple notions inherited from my parents and friends.

All the mental energy you've wasted trying to reconcile your beliefs with reality is the time I've spent enriching my mind appreciating the beauty of existence.

Then why even try to justify what you believe by posting it on an internet forum?

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Karadan, I agree with you in everything you said. We do not need some book to tell us we need to be good to be good. A good person will do good things no matter what! But we were talking about what Christ’s death on the cross meant.

Yes...we digress.  

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Wow! Two Christians going at it! Hell yeah! I haven’t seen this sense Sunday school! JK!

While we may disagree on specifics, I think we agree on the basics...which is the most important.

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Well, first I get what you mean with the analogy of the kids being bad and I know that Christ death was a sacrifice for all mankind. Because back in the day they used to sacrifice animals to wash away their sins and Christ’s death on the cross was the last sacrifise. I understand all that.

I have a feeling you don't.  Those animal sacrifices did nothing to remove/forgive sin.  They were a teaching "tool" used to teach the ugliness sin causes.
EDIT:  This pointed at the True "Lamb"/Sacrifice and the True Blood required for forgiveness and reconcilliation back to the state of Adam and Eve Pre-fruit.
For there to be forgiveness (meaning a reconciling, to make things right and to fully declare one righteous again) there needs to be payment for sin.  Again, this goes back to God's nature.  He is Righteousness/Rightness embodied.  To be Righteous/Justice, HE MUST Judge correctly and fair.  God cannot forgive and forget without Justice.  Justice means the crime/wrong is paid and MADE right.  So then those old sacrifices were the tool used to teach that to be forgiven requires either;

• 1.  Your own blood/death to pay for sin
• 2.  Innocent blood/death shed for you.

(Blood is simply a metaphor for life.  Without blood in your body, you are dead.)

The blood/innocense of mortal animals for a human is not enough, but taught the lesson and showed sin in its truest sense.

Quote from: "father nicetouch"But wouldn’t it be easier if he just came down and said, “Ok, no more animal sacrifices! Just ask for forgiveness and all is forgiven!” instead of actually be crucified? Why did there have to be a human sacrifice?

One human sacrifice who happened to be sinless.  A perfect "Lamb" slaughtered so that you and I can be saved from sin's wage, if we so choose.

Quote from: "father nicetouch"Why does God have to be so blood thirsty? Those are things that make no sense to me at all. If God is all powerful, why does he have to make everything so complicated?

It's very simple really, but our minds, even "understanding" it, cannot really understand it as it goes against what we believe to be logical.  God is not "blood" thirsty, Sin is what brings blood/death.  If sin had not entered into humanity, we'd still be living perfect lives in "Eden" all the while STILL with complete freewill.  The concept I see over and over that the skeptic has a difficult time seeing is that God IS something.  Being that something logically defines both that something and the opposite of that something.  One does not "create" the other, it just is.  To then say, "God caused all this and forced man into sin..." is on the surface correct as God does make such declarations in scripture, but the deeper meaning is not that at all.  It's much like BECAUSE we know light, we also know what dark and shadow is.  If there was no light, we wouldn't know what "dark" means, it just would be the way it is.

Edit = Blue text.

Quote from: "defendor"Animated Dirt- I agree with the first bold,

If you agree, then what are the immediate ramifications of changing the inflections of the sentence?
Instead of you and I derailing this thread further, if you wish to discuss, open a topic.

Quote from: "defendor"but as for the sacrificial atonement and the second bold, you have to look at what scripture says, I'm not sure on the verse, but the sacrificial system was set up that the payment of sin was death, not resurrection.  To my understanding, the payment of sin was fulfilled on the Cross, but the impartation of the spirit came as the resurrection.  I agree with you, it would really not be much of saving as to pull a drowning person to the surface but Christ also pulls us in the boat (proverbially) So I agree with that statement that the resurrection is essential to instilling the hope of the resurrection and eternal life etc.  But the payment of sin was payed 3 days earlier as the wages of sin are death.

The short answer to this is; Payment made, but not hope for the gift = Payment useless and God dead.
Again, if you wish to discuss this, open another topic for it.  

QuoteWell, first I get what you mean with the analogy of the kids being bad and I know that Christ death was a sacrifice for all mankind. Because back in the day they used to sacrifice animals to wash away their sins and Christ’s death on the cross was the last sacrifise. I understand all that. But wouldn’t it be easier if he just came down and said, “Ok, no more animal sacrifices! Just ask for forgiveness and all is forgiven!” instead of actually be crucified? Why did there have to be a human sacrifice? Why does God have to be so blood thirsty? Those are things that make no sense to me at all. If God is all powerful, why does he have to make everything so complicated?

The nature of sin, is that it has to be washed with a blood sacrifice.  It is a gruesome depiction of what our sin looks like, so we gaze upon the body of Christ on the Cross, see our sin on a sinless being, and thus repent, etc.

Animated Dirt- Ha I would love to, I'm not sure how to start a thread tho, but idk if its worth it.  The apostle paul says do not argue about disputable manners, i think this is very disputable.  I feel that we agree on all of the close handed issues but argue on the open handed, such as the mechanisms of salvation etc.  Which is fine, I just don't know how far it could go.  I'm not an expert in theology so the only thing I can dispute is what I've known from what I've read in the Bible ha.  But regardless I think we would agree on the innate being of Love that combines us, so ya we disagree on the impartation of the righteousness of God, but I mean thats really a small topic, for no only, we have been imparted this righteousness already.

Quote from: "defendor"Then why even try to justify what you believe by posting it on an internet forum?

I wasn't trying to justify anything. I was merely stating fact.

I believe the same thing about my life, the understanding of Christ liberates me to the astounding nature of Truth and frees me from the tyranny of deceit that plagues my life.

I'm sure you're going to disagree.

So if we just are going to disagree about disagreeing, why even bother making a snide remark?

Quote from: "defendor"I believe the same thing about my life, the understanding of Christ liberates me to the astounding nature of Truth and frees me from the tyranny of deceit that plagues my life.

I'm sure you're going to disagree.

So if we just are going to disagree about disagreeing, why even bother making a snide remark?

There was nothing snide about what I said, unless you consider all differing opinions to be snide. I was being as truthful as I could, seeing as what I wrote is what I believe, which I think is backed up by logic. To me, it isn't logical to believe in the improvable, especially if your entire life is based upon it.

Whether you believe it or not, I'm genuinely interested in the beliefs of religious people. I'm intrigued with the mind states involved and from my personal experience, I've seen religion make people do really weird stuff, which they usually seem completely happy to justify.

By the way, what did you mean by "frees me from the tyranny of deceit that plagues my life"? I usually have a hard time trying to de-cipher many religious justifications. Maybe that's just my inability to grasp simple English, though.

Quote from: "karadan"There was nothing snide about what I said, unless you consider all differing opinions to be snide. I was being as truthful as I could, seeing as what I wrote is what I believe, which I think is backed up by logic. To me, it isn't logical to believe in the improvable, especially if your entire life is based upon it.

Whether you believe it or not, I'm genuinely interested in the beliefs of religious people. I'm intrigued with the mind states involved and from my personal experience, I've seen religion make people do really weird stuff, which they usually seem completely happy to justify.

By the way, what did you mean by "frees me from the tyranny of deceit that plagues my life"? I usually have a hard time trying to de-cipher many religious justifications. Maybe that's just my inability to grasp simple English, though.

I apologize for jumping to a conclusion, it seemed that tone was demeaning and snooty, like 'oh what idiots, don't you guys know you're bickering about nonsense'.  So I became defensive, I'm sorry.

Well I think whenever you take a look at reality you have to a make a few assertions
1. Truth as a Category exists
2. There are existential questions from which I cannot run (where am I from? what happens when I die? what is the meaning of life?, etc.)

So when you begin to take a look at the Christian narrative, and the biblical schema of the prophetic nature of a messiah, as well as other spiritual truths.  You begin to see claims to a cosmotic entity of truth.  But if this revelation did not agree with the way I perceived reality or was found to be untrue, it could not be a reliable source.  For all intensive purposes, there is not one bit of overwhelming evidence that the Bible is simply "untrue".  Most people like to claim that it is, but there is no real evidence discerning such.  Also, combined with an indifferent perspective of reality, we see the order of the universe, as well as, the magnitudes of information, it screams prior mind.  In accordance with a seemingly universal state of morality, an innate worth placed on man outside the constraints of the physical nature of man.  So in concordance with our perspective of reality, and the nature of the prophetic schema of Christ as laid out in the Bible, it all points to something outside of its own being to an origin and an originator (i.e. Creator God). The bible, among other religious texts, stands alone as authoritative claims, not of revelation or inspiration, but of expiration of God as its author.  As well as the nature of Christianity.  Other religions did not require their originator to still be their respective religion.  Islam didn't need Mohammed, Mormon didn't need Joseph smith, and Buddhism could still be buddhism without buddha.  But when it comes to Christians, if you take Christ out of it, all you have left is ian, and ian made no claims of saving anybody.  So much of Christianity is laid squarely on the person and deity of Jesus Christ.

Without wishing to get embroiled in anything massively deep right now - I thought The Passion Of The Christ was a great film. Excellent cinematography, tight script and compelling story.

I also thought Avatar was pretty good but I dont believe the Na'vi are still struggling to rebuild Pandora.

Quote from: "tubbyman"I also thought Avatar was pretty good but I dont believe the Na'vi are still struggling to rebuild Pandora.

Praise the lord, I knew those blue guys would get things fixed.

Religion = Scare Tactics.

I don't want to particularly watch this movie but if I ever do, it's going to be in a "fantasy" or "historical fantasy" context.