Happy Atheist Forum

I'm feeling particularly downtrodden at the moment. The holiday season, with its numerous opportunities for social gatherings with family and friends, has proven intellectually burdensome. My younger brother and I are somewhat unique within our family, in that we are atheists. Our parents, aunts, uncles, and cousins of both sides are stalwartly Christian. I have recently been goaded into frustrating arguments against ignorance and delusion, and I am at my wit's end. I was wondering how many others here experience similar family lives. I thought it could give me hope or, at least, a feeling of unity to hear from others who have railed against religious absurdity in their own gene pool.

I, for one, feel like politely issuing a gentle, yet meaningful "**** off" next time I am asked to do battle against arguments such as "Evolution is not accepted by the majority of the scientific community" or "Homosexuals are all unhappy victims of child molestation." Or, my favorite, "The evidence for the resurrection of Christ is undeniable."

Is it so wrong to feel like giving up? Should I be ashamed that my mind can't bear the burden of trying to usher my family into the light of reason?
 

Quote from: "dgmort19"Should I be ashamed that my mind can't bear the burden of trying to usher my family into the light of reason?

No.  Nobody's mind could bear the burden.  The burden cannot be borne, because whoever tries, regardless how brilliant, will always, inevitably, reenact the Myth of Sisyphus, punished for all time in Hades to roll a boulder up a hill, only to have the boulder spontaneously roll back down the hill, so that Sisyphus must follow it down and then roll it back up, again, again, again.
 
Neither you nor anyone can make a dent in the faith of your relatives because their faith doesn't derive from their thinking, but rather, their thinking derives from their faith.

Really let that sink in and you may start to feel a lot better.  For your relatives, reason doesn't judge faith, but rather, faith judges reason.  Facts don't test faith, but rather, faith tests facts.  

I promise you I am right in this.  Follow any of the debates with Christians that appear on this message board and you will be convinced I am right.  For your relatives, reality doesn't measure faith, but rather, faith measures reality.  Seeing with their own eyes won't put faith to the question, but rather, faith will put to the question what they see with their own eyes.  The many logical contradictions that would cause you to reject faith, cause your relatives, instead, to reject logic.

The brains of your relatives have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; I.e., they are brainwashed.  Debate is futile.  Their inner response will always be, "That contradicts faith so I reject that."  Take them back in a time machine to Palestine in the years when Jesus supposedly lived, and walk them through all that genuinely happened, whatever it was, to the extent anything happened at all.  Rather than question their faith, they will decide they are hallucinating, or you are tricking them, or the devil is tricking you all, or the science of time travel is false.

Follow any of the debates with Christians that appear on this message board.  You will see that I am right.

Be of good cheer, my friend.  Breathe in, breathe out, and release the burden.  What you have been attempting to do, cannot be done.  Fortunately, it needn't be attempted.  Eat the Christmas cookies and drink the egg nog.  Enjoy the smiling face of Santa Claus.  Talk with your relatives about the many, many topics of discussion our world offers up for our entertainment, and which have nothing to do with the absurdity of one Jew being nailed to a wooden cross so those who believe won't burn for all eternity.  Talk about sports, if you like sports, or movies, or books, or nature, or business, or one another's lives.  Leave fools to their folly, and as for you, be at peace.

I would put into question why they are so overbearing in their faith towards you, instead of yourself making a choice on what to believe. My grandmother was pretty wise in not sharing her faith unless someone asked her, I think this should apply as well. One of the issues I have with Protestant Christians, assuming that is what your family is, is that they feel science and religion can't work together. I think that's not true at all, I believe science should flourish within the framework of God. Also there are too many generalizations and misconceptions regarding certain issues, like you brought up "Homosexuals are all unahppy victims of child molestation". It's a shame that such ignorance pervades (check out that Creation Musuem for example), but if you were to educate them on their failings do it out of love.

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"No.  Nobody's mind could bear the burden.  The burden cannot be borne, because whoever tries, regardless how brilliant, will always, inevitably, reenact the Myth of Sisyphus, punished for all time in Hades to roll a boulder up a hill, only to have the boulder spontaneously roll back down the hill, so that Sisyphus must follow it down and then roll it back up, again, again, again.
 
Neither you nor anyone can make a dent in the faith of your relatives because their faith doesn't derive from their thinking, but rather, their thinking derives from their faith.

Really let that sink in and you may start to feel a lot better.  For your relatives, reason doesn't judge faith, but rather, faith judges reason.  Facts don't test faith, but rather, faith tests facts.  

I promise you I am right in this.  Follow any of the debates with Christians that appear on this message board and you will be convinced I am right.  For your relatives, reality doesn't measure faith, but rather, faith measures reality.  Seeing with their own eyes won't put faith to the question, but rather, faith will put to the question what they see with their own eyes.  The many logical contradictions that would cause you to reject faith, cause your relatives, instead, to reject logic.

Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately. How do you know that you are not in a Matrix of sorts? How do you know that reality is not an illusion etc? Your perceptions rely on the ability of your brain to accurately interpret sensory inputs in order to derive conclusions. As someone who's father is a veteran of three major brain surgeries, I can assure you that relying on the brain to be accurate about much of anything is a rather tenuous proposition at best. Just because a blind man lacks sight, doesn't mean we all do.

QuoteThe brains of your relatives have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; I.e., they are brainwashed.  Debate is futile.  Their inner response will always be, "That contradicts faith so I reject that."  Take them back in a time machine to Palestine in the years when Jesus supposedly lived, and walk them through all that genuinely happened, whatever it was, to the extent anything happened at all.  Rather than question their faith, they will decide they are hallucinating, or you are tricking them, or the devil is tricking you all, or the science of time travel is false.

Scenario B
Jesus Christ really was the Son of God, really lived, really died, really rose again, and really ascended into Heaven. The Church which He founded with His apostles has endured over the last 2000 years, despite the most extreme persecution possible, and has left an enduring record of teachings, martyrs and miracles to testify to a reality beyond the comprehension of the human mind.

Which is really what it comes down to. You wish to believe, and would like us to believe, that the human mind (brain actually, as the term mind refers to conciousness, a concept which has no scientific basis) is able comprehend all that was, is and shall ever be. But if God doesn't exist, then you, I, and everyone else are nothing more than highly-evolved chimps. If this is true, then what I believe or do not believe is irrelevant. Humans are simply doomed to live on average 80 or so years and then die, on a planet that is doomed to die, orbiting a star doomed to die, in a galaxy doomed to die etc.

Even if this is the case, and I don't concede that it is, I would still choose to believe in God. Belief in God provides that flicker of hope in this dark dark world. And what else matters in the end, if not hope??

Quote from: "Achrnos"Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.

The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.

Quote from: "Sophus"The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason.

Another irony is that dgmort19 doesn't have to leave this thread to witness the very behavior I was describing.

Quote from: "dgmort19"I'm feeling particularly downtrodden at the moment. The holiday season, with its numerous opportunities for social gatherings with family and friends, has proven intellectually burdensome. My younger brother and I are somewhat unique within our family, in that we are atheists. Our parents, aunts, uncles, and cousins of both sides are stalwartly Christian. I have recently been goaded into frustrating arguments against ignorance and delusion, and I am at my wit's end. I was wondering how many others here experience similar family lives. I thought it could give me hope or, at least, a feeling of unity to hear from others who have railed against religious absurdity in their own gene pool.

So don't go to gatherings of stalwart Christians.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Achrnos"Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.

The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.

No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

Quote from: "Achronos"

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Achrnos"Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.

The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.

No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

I met The Atheist once, he beat the crap out of The Joker and Super Man. Pretty sure he didn't abandon his side kick Reason, The Atheist doesn't abandon anybody.

Quote from: "Achronos"

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Achrnos"Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.

The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.

No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

I'd say this right here is abandoning reason: Even if this is the case, and I don't concede that it is, I would still choose to believe in God. Belief in God provides that flicker of hope in this dark dark world. And what else matters in the end, if not hope??

Quote from: "dgmort19"I'm feeling particularly downtrodden at the moment. The holiday season, with its numerous opportunities for social gatherings with family and friends, has proven intellectually burdensome. My younger brother and I are somewhat unique within our family, in that we are atheists. Our parents, aunts, uncles, and cousins of both sides are stalwartly Christian. I have recently been goaded into frustrating arguments against ignorance and delusion, and I am at my wit's end. I was wondering how many others here experience similar family lives. I thought it could give me hope or, at least, a feeling of unity to hear from others who have railed against religious absurdity in their own gene pool.

I, for one, feel like politely issuing a gentle, yet meaningful "**** off" next time I am asked to do battle against arguments such as "Evolution is not accepted by the majority of the scientific community" or "Homosexuals are all unhappy victims of child molestation." Or, my favorite, "The evidence for the resurrection of Christ is undeniable."

Is it so wrong to feel like giving up? Should I be ashamed that my mind can't bear the burden of trying to usher my family into the light of reason?

It seems absurd an atheist would even partake of gatherings with family celebrating an absurd idea(s) and/or beliefs.  You walked in to it.  What else do you expect?  It seems plain and painfully ignorant and deluded on your part is what you must do from here on out if you are at your wits end in these battles with your family.  Why keep going at all?  Make your statement of unbelief in your absence.

I wouldn't personally bring up the religious topic around family and would avoid such discussions as much as possible if I had uneducated religious family...it's not worth the stress especially if they are old and set in their ways.

Quote from: "Achronos"One of the issues I have with Protestant Christians, assuming that is what your family is, is that they feel science and religion can't work together. I think that's not true at all, I believe science should flourish within the framework of God.

As do many Protestant Christians...they aren't all fundamentalists and there are many very liberal Protestant churches.

QuoteIt seems absurd an atheist would even partake of gatherings with family celebrating an absurd idea(s) and/or beliefs. You walked in to it. What else do you expect? It seems plain and painfully ignorant and deluded on your part is what you must do from here on out if you are at your wits end in these battles with your family. Why keep going at all? Make your statement of unbelief in your absence.

QuoteSo don't go to gatherings of stalwart Christians.

What would you have me do as my family celebrates Christmas with abundant food, wine and joviality? Sit in my basement with a one-antlered dog?  :bananacolor:

My family does this too, but I refuse to take the bait. I just smirk and stuff my mouth with figgy pudding.

Quote from: "Achronos"Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately. How do you know that you are not in a Matrix of sorts? How do you know that reality is not an illusion etc?

Another candidate for the patented Yahzi Baseball Bat test...:yawn:

Quote from: "Achronos"No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

Yeah...

Three kings following a star across the desert to bring presents to a god-man baby (who was immaculately concepted and had no father) whom they dreamed about is all about reason.

Quote from: "dgmort19"

QuoteIt seems absurd an atheist would even partake of gatherings with family celebrating an absurd idea(s) and/or beliefs. You walked in to it. What else do you expect? It seems plain and painfully ignorant and deluded on your part is what you must do from here on out if you are at your wits end in these battles with your family. Why keep going at all? Make your statement of unbelief in your absence.

QuoteSo don't go to gatherings of stalwart Christians.

What would you have me do as my family celebrates Christmas with abundant food, wine and joviality? Sit in my basement with a one-antlered dog?  :bananacolor:

If you agree they are fools, what reason do you have in respecting them at all?  I'm simply not understanding your stand here when it flies in the face of your apparent convictions.  Why even 'give in' to celebrating a made for Christ holiday?  Why not leave these "uneducated" religious fools to their folly, as you seem to agree?

I've got religious folks in the family too, my girlfriends parents are mormon and my sister's mother in law is a preachy born-again christian. When those conversations come up I steer the conversation away as best I can toward other topics. When someone willfully abandons logic and reason and is unwilling to learn you're not going to change their mind with logic, reason, or facts.

QuoteIf you agree they are fools, what reason do you have in respecting them at all? I'm simply not understanding your stand here when it flies in the face of your apparent convictions. Why even 'give in' to celebrating a made for Christ holiday? Why not leave these "uneducated" religious fools to their folly, as you seem to agree?

Because they are my family, and I love them (most of them). Plus, free food and gifts.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Why even 'give in' to celebrating a made for Christ holiday?  Why not leave these "uneducated" religious fools to their folly, as you seem to agree?

If I had family like in the OP I would just skip over the holiday...but for many of us it's just another holiday with religious origins that creates an excuse to get together with friends and family for some good food when most are off work.

Quote from: "Achronos"

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Achrnos"Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately.

The irony is you're trying to give a reason for abandoning reason. Your logic circular. Reason is inescapable when it comes to justifying ideas and concepts. Once you convince me to abandon reason I'll have no reason to believe that's reasonable anymore.

No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

Oh... you're just a troll.  

Quote from: "Gawen"

Quote from: "Achronos"No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

Yeah...

Three kings following a star across the desert to bring presents to a god-man baby (who was immaculately concepted and had no father) whom they dreamed about is all about reason.

Three Zoroastrian priests, clergy of a religion that had no links to the OT, but which did predict the birth of a savior in a cave, and who did place great store by studying the stars. Three gifts were given on account of Christ's kingship, priesthood, and suffering.

Quote from: "McQ"I'd say this right here is abandoning reason: Even if this is the case, and I don't concede that it is, I would still choose to believe in God. Belief in God provides that flicker of hope in this dark dark world. And what else matters in the end, if not hope??

You seem to have painted yourself into a corner here. Faith in the Orthodox Church is participatory...it requires my agreement, my cooperation, and my actions. Reason does not require any such thing. In your world, what happens will happen regardless of my belief. The ultimate conclusion is that we are all dead. So if I choose faith AND reason, even where faith seemingly lacks evidence in your eyes, this has no bearing on what happens in the end. No harm is done by me embracing faith. In a world which lacks a supreme moral arbiter, on no grounds can you declare what is right or wrong to any degree of certainty, including even faith. So why not just let us be?

Quote from: "Gawen"

Quote from: "Achronos"Your logic is circular. You criticise us because we side with faith, which in your eyes is oppositional to reason. Yet at the same time, you must invariably have faith that your faculty of reason reflects reality accurately. How do you know that you are not in a Matrix of sorts? How do you know that reality is not an illusion etc?

Another candidate for the patented Yahzi Baseball Bat test...:yawn:

 Thought I'd quote that here in case others don't know what you're talking about:

Quote from: "Gawen"If you can't trust your senses, it's time to bring out the Yahzi Baseball Bat test (TM)
Step 1. Obtain a baseball bat.
Step 2. Strike yourself in the head.
Step 3. Repeat step 2 until all doubts about the reality of physical existence are driven out.

Quote from: "dgmort19"

QuoteIf you agree they are fools, what reason do you have in respecting them at all? I'm simply not understanding your stand here when it flies in the face of your apparent convictions. Why even 'give in' to celebrating a made for Christ holiday? Why not leave these "uneducated" religious fools to their folly, as you seem to agree?

Because they are my family, and I love them (most of them). Plus, free food and gifts.

So let me understand... They are fools, but because they are your "family", you "love" them and want to spend time with them and partake of the fruits of their foolish labor, YET...you ridicule them and their foolish "leader" (didn't someone call Him a lunatic?) in a dedicated time to this lunatic?  One must ask if you really believe what you promote, or is it of convenience and fun only.

I totally get that they are your family, but their REASON for meeting is not logical.  The whole point is an illogical reason and to play along is to empower this rediculous season.  Wouldn't it do the world better if all atheists decided to actually live their beliefs?

If Christ is a lunatic, He did claim to be the Almighty God, then anything to do with Him is utterly illogical to even participate in.  It would be like me getting together with my family to celebrate the yearly cooking of the Great Spaghetti Monster's new hairdoo and then getting angry because I don't believe in the GSM...I wouldn't go.  It's something best left to the fools that believe in a GSM...right?
But you're here saying, "Woe is me..."??  If your life and beliefs are far superior in intellect, reason and logic to the fool's life and practice(s), why lower yourself to their level?

Quote from: "Achronos"So why not just let us be?

Says the person coming to an atheist forum and saying:

Quote from: "Achronos"No one has abandoned reason here.

Except the atheist.

I leave theists alone all the time, I hardly even bring up religion and I don't really care too much if a person is a theist. Theists tend to bring up religion to me, or to the public like in this forum, so I respond. Now if I came to a theistic forum that you frequent, and brought up atheism and proceeded to argue for atheism, then you'd have reasonable justification to ask "So why not just let us be?" However you came here, you brought up religion and you argued for religion... asking now "So why not just let us be?" is completely backwards.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"If your life and beliefs are far superior in intellect, reason and logic to the fool's life and practice(s), why lower yourself to their level?

Because they're family.  That answer would suffice if you weren't trying to make some point about hypocrisy.  Common sense accepts that family ties are strong enough to endure and valuable enough to retain despite philosophical disagreement.  Common sense also accepts that philosophical disagreement needn't be a cause for conflict at any time, between anyone.  Common sense, finally, accepts that all action is best aimed at survival, success, and happiness, and if airing one's philosophical contentions would serve none of those and in fact would undermine one of those, then airing one's philosphical contentions would betray a lack of common sense.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "dgmort19"

QuoteIf you agree they are fools, what reason do you have in respecting them at all? I'm simply not understanding your stand here when it flies in the face of your apparent convictions. Why even 'give in' to celebrating a made for Christ holiday? Why not leave these "uneducated" religious fools to their folly, as you seem to agree?

Because they are my family, and I love them (most of them). Plus, free food and gifts.

So let me understand... They are fools, but because they are your "family", you "love" them and want to spend time with them and partake of the fruits of their foolish labor, YET...you ridicule them and their foolish "leader" (didn't someone call Him a lunatic?) in a dedicated time to this lunatic?  One must ask if you really believe what you promote, or is it of convenience and fun only.

I totally get that they are your family, but their REASON for meeting is not logical.  The whole point is an illogical reason and to play along is to empower this rediculous season.  Wouldn't it do the world better if all atheists decided to actually live their beliefs?

If Christ is a lunatic, He did claim to be the Almighty God, then anything to do with Him is utterly illogical to even participate in.  It would be like me getting together with my family to celebrate the yearly cooking of the Great Spaghetti Monster's new hairdoo and then getting angry because I don't believe in the GSM...I wouldn't go.  It's something best left to the fools that believe in a GSM...right?
But you're here saying, "Woe is me..."??  If your life and beliefs are far superior in intellect, reason and logic to the fool's life and practice(s), why lower yourself to their level?

Stop trying to make us look like hypocrites, because it's not working and you're looking like a damn fool.

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"If your life and beliefs are far superior in intellect, reason and logic to the fool's life and practice(s), why lower yourself to their level?

Because they're family.  That answer would suffice if you weren't trying to make some point about hypocrisy.  Common sense accepts that family ties are strong enough to endure and valuable enough to retain despite philosophical disagreement.  Common sense also accepts that philosophical disagreement needn't be a cause for conflict at any time, between anyone.  Common sense, finally, accepts that all action is best aimed at survival, success, and happiness, and if airing one's philosophical contentions would serve none of those and in fact would undermine one of those, then airing one's philosphical contentions would betray a lack of common sense.

Trying to make some point?  I think you made it on your own without my help.  The point is not that they are family, but the REASON these fools are gathering.  Hypocrisy is part of it, but it's not my point.

You, in another thread I just was reading in wanting figure out what 'Apatheist' is, wrote,

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"Judaism, Christianity, Islam - toward them, I'm hard atheist. Those frameworks I claim as false. They're utter nonsense.

If this is true, then to consort with nonsense makes no sense regardless of it being family.  Love, therefore, is a cause to do or believe ideas that are illogical and nonsense.  More so, one might say you're holding back the human species by not distancing yourself from this less intelligent group.  To me, it is hypocrisy...however to all of a sudden say, "AHHH-Ha!  You're a hypocrite!" is useless because I think you already understand and agree.

The point is the OP is, in my opinion, whining about having to deal with questions and arguments when he/she CHOOSES to put him or herself in the situation that logic and reason tell him/her to avoid.  What then, is of more value, his/her beliefs or family and love?  If it's family and love, then there is no reason, logically, to whine and/or complain about a situation in which the path is already known.  So the OP has already made known that love and family supercede logic, facts and reason.  If you think about it, that's not the logical thing to do.  If Atheism is all about logic, facts and reason, why do Atheists continue to not live according to their creed?  It makes no sense to me, none whatsoever.  To go against facts, logic, and reason is great when in a situation of life and death...but simply to suffer JUST TO visit with lunatic family???

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Stop trying to make us look like hypocrites, because it's not working and you're looking like a damn fool.

Not my point

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"[...]But you're here saying, "Woe is me..."??  If your life and beliefs are far superior in intellect, reason and logic to the fool's life and practice(s), why lower yourself to their level?

I'm in a very similar situation so I think I can address this on topic like. My parents are very smart people, very knowledgeable and very Christian. I was a Christian. I'm pretty sure my intelligence didn't change during my mental transformation from Christian to atheist. If I thought that I was more intelligent than religious people just because I'm an atheist, then I'd have to take the stance that I'm now more intelligent than I was when I was a Christian. However I think there's a much more simplistic explanation; it's just that the order of things and the things themselves that are important to me aren't the same things and order that are important to my parents.

The other thing is that there is some benefit from meeting with family a few times a year almost no matter what the reason is (yes even a funeral for a family reunion is beneficial), it would be nice to have the benefit of meeting up with family without the attempts of them converting me. However to me, the benefits of reuniting with my family outweigh the negatives of them occasionally attempting to convert me. It's in an odd way comforting that they care for me and show it by trying to save my eternal soul in the only way they believe will save it. The problem isn't that it makes me directly uncomfortable, it's that it always makes my family uncomfortable and I get uncomfortable because they are.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"[...]But you're here saying, "Woe is me..."??  If your life and beliefs are far superior in intellect, reason and logic to the fool's life and practice(s), why lower yourself to their level?

I'm in a very similar situation so I think I can address this on topic like. My parents are very smart people, very knowledgeable and very Christian. I was a Christian. I'm pretty sure my intelligence didn't change during my mental transformation from Christian to atheist. If I thought that I was more intelligent than religious people just because I'm an atheist, then I'd have to take the stance that I'm now more intelligent than I was when I was a Christian. However I think there's a much more simplistic explanation; it's just that the order of things and the things themselves that are important to me aren't the same things and order that are important to my parents.

The other thing is that there is some benefit from meeting with family a few times a year almost no matter what the reason is (yes even a funeral for a family reunion is beneficial), it would be nice to have the benefit of meeting up with family without the attempts of them converting me. However to me, the benefits of reuniting with my family outweigh the negatives of them occasionally attempting to convert me. It's in an odd way comforting that they care for me and show it by trying to save my eternal soul in the only way they believe will save it. The problem isn't that it makes me directly uncomfortable, it's that it always makes my family uncomfortable and I get uncomfortable because they are.

Thank you for the thoughtful answer.  While I still feel the same towards the OP on this thread, that being that he/she is not living according to their beliefs, I gather from your point here that you may truly love and so do not label your family as "uneducated religious" or "brainwashed".  That isn't love and would therefore make it illogical and nonsense to spend time with the family during this season.  It's my point exactly.  If you don't love your family, thinking them uneducated, brainwashed, lunatics, deluded, ignorant...and all the other unloving adjectives used here, why go?  If you have to ask and/or complain, then it serves no logical purpose and goes 100% against what "you" claim in Atheism and the scientific method of your thinking driving your 'faith' and not the other way around.  If you think and know, then act accordingly.  If you CHOOSE to act against your thinking, then don't complain about the facts having known the facts before going in.

Quote8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
From: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6385 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6385)

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

I would point out that you can think someone is stupid yet still love them...for an extreme example, many people love their mentally challenged family members despite the disability.  So, it isn't far fetched to think that someone could also love a family member who they think is mentally lacking to a less extreme degree.  I would think that a Christian would be one of the first to think this kind of love is possible...hate the sin love the sinner.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"If you don't love your family, thinking them uneducated, brainwashed, lunatics, deluded, ignorant...and all the other unloving adjectives used here, why go?

It is possible to love someone as family and simultaneously think they're brainwashed fools with respect to epistemology.  I'm still trying to decide if you really don't understand this or if you're deliberately playing ignorant because you think you're making a point.  Family love can be unconditional and often is.  Unconditional love by definition looks beyond conditions, for example the condition of being a brainwashed fool with respect to epistemology.  Looking beyond a condition isn't the same thing as failing to see and name it.
 

Quote

Quote8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
From: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6385 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6385)

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Ah, so you've been reading that thread!  I was wondering if any Christians were doing so.

The key words in what you've quoted are need not.  They beg the question as to what humans need.  Most humans need family in order to be happy.  It's a biological imperative probably selected by nature for its survival value, which is why family problems can feel like life or death.

Needs come in three broad categories: survival, success, and happiness.  Any of these can put someone in a predicament they can neither change nor exit with any sort of grace, and so they must accept.  Sometimes accepting can be hard.  At these times, coming to friends for emotional support can help.  The non-believers on this message board, or at least the ones who responded, were willing to provide that emotional support, and did.

Incidentally, we non-believers who have responded have largely declined to comment on the behavior of the relatives described in the OP.  Not their epistemology - their behavior.  I'm sure we all have opinions in that area.  But out of courtesy toward the author of the OP, we declined to comment about people he loves as family.  Such courtesy is fairly common among non-believers, and is absolutely the rule among people who follow the lifestyle described in the thread you reference above.

Quote from: "Whitney"I would point out that you can think someone is stupid yet still love them...for an extreme example, many people love their mentally challenged family members despite the disability.  So, it isn't far fetched to think that someone could also love a family member who they think is mentally lacking to a less extreme degree.  I would think that a Christian would be one of the first to think this kind of love is possible...hate the sin love the sinner.

I don't think you're equating a mental disability with one that for all intents and purposes does not have a mental disability, or I hope you're not.  The mentally challenged do not have a choice in their disability, but family that is "uneducated", chooses folly, is unreasonable, ignores facts, whose faith drives their thinking instead of their thinking driving them does, and therein lies the difference.  The OP is complaining of a family that is, as he/she agreed, is uneducated, fools, brainwashed, contradictory, futile, judgemental, illogical...and the list goes on.  The question then remains; Why?  One would NEVER ask this or complain of spending time with a family member whom is seemingly loved who may or may not be mentally challenged.  It's not the same thing, IMHO.

No free thinking person should be "goaded" into something they don't want to do or don't enjoy doing.  The "fact", I think, is, he/she does enjoy the gatherings as a forum to show his/her superior thinking and rationalizing skills...else why would they enter AND allow themselves to be "goaded"?  Why associate with people who are all those things listed above and why above all else, "love" these?  Is love, then, not pity in this case?  But wait...the OP mentioned free food and free gifts.  What would you (a general 'you') say to someone doing the same of mentally challenged people?  Hanging out with them simply to gain whatever is available for free?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Thank you for the thoughtful answer.  While I still feel the same towards the OP on this thread, that being that he/she is not living according to their beliefs, I gather from your point here that you may truly love and so do not label your family as "uneducated religious" or "brainwashed".  That isn't love and would therefore make it illogical and nonsense to spend time with the family during this season.  It's my point exactly.  If you don't love your family, thinking them uneducated, brainwashed, lunatics, deluded, ignorant...and all the other unloving adjectives used here, why go?  If you have to ask and/or complain, then it serves no logical purpose and goes 100% against what "you" claim in Atheism and the scientific method of your thinking driving your 'faith' and not the other way around.  If you think and know, then act accordingly.  If you CHOOSE to act against your thinking, then don't complain about the facts having known the facts before going in.

I do not use labels much, and I never to attempt to pigeon hole a person with them. Seeing as how I have no problem with someone pointing our where my logic fails (takes more than just a claim), I have no problem with pointing out where other people's logic fails. So I see no reason why I can't both say that a person is being illogical and love them at the same time. In my view, pointing out where a person's logic fails is an act of love and compassion. Much like letting a friend or family member know that their zipper is down.

I see a few logical purposes of complaining about something to others not involved directly with the thing one is complaining about: to see if ones complaints are warranted, to see how other people deal with the same thing in order to possibly find better ways for ones self to deal with it, getting it off ones chest and out in the open somewhere often makes one feel better and to better be able to handle the stress that the thing one is complaining about causes, and/or many other reasons. To complain to those that are causing the issue that one is complaining about might possibly get the people doing it to stop. So there are rational reasons to complain about things.

A little quip: "[...]"you" claim in Atheism and the scientific method of your thinking driving your 'faith'[...]" It is not 'faith' whether in quotes or not. The lack of belief in something, can never be faith, because it is the absence of it. And empty cup is not a cup with water in it. Also, "I've" never made any claim similar to the claim you claim I have claimed.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
From: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6385 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6385)

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Yes, I've read that thread. It's not a concept I subscribe to as you can see by my above response. What is your point in bringing this up in response to my response?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"What would you (a general 'you') say to someone doing the same of mentally challenged people?  Hanging out with them simply to gain whatever is available for free?

Because the family members the OP is talking about already know that the OP doesn't subscribe to their beliefs so I think it's safe to assume that the OP's beliefs are not dependent on the OP receiving the gifts. So the OP is in no conceivable way taking advantage of anyone. Hanging out with those who have mentally developed disorders simply to gain whatever is free is far different and the comparison triggers my troll sense.

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"It is possible to love someone as family and simultaneously think they're brainwashed fools with respect to epistemology.  I'm still trying to decide if you really don't understand this or if you're deliberately playing ignorant because you think you're making a point.  Family love can be unconditional and often is.  Unconditional love by definition looks beyond conditions, for example the condition of being a brainwashed fool with respect to epistemology.  Looking beyond a condition isn't the same thing as failing to see and name it.

I'm not playing ignorant.  I appreciate your honest replies.  It is not my intention to simply yell, "Hypocrite!" and run off laughing.  If that were the case, I would've done so long ago when I think the point was already made by another.

I agree with you that it is possible to love inspite of differences in beliefs.  However the point here is not silly beliefs such as Mac is better than PC so a day is set aside for Mac lovers to exchange gifts...or trivial points of belief.  We are dealing with what you have said is FALSE.  Full stop.  We are debating here, in the religion section of an Atheism forum, one point of belief being of life everlasting and the other of life is finite and life should be lived, maybe according to the Satanism you're discussing in another thread and its tenets.  Either you're right and I'm wrong, or you're wrong and I'm right.  The ramifications of one over the other is HUGE!  It's much like one thread someone mentioned the difference between Christianity and Medicine (or something to that effect) is that eventually the research for a cure for cancer will be seen.  We may not see it now, but we know something good will come of it.  Searching is not futile.  It's not a waste of time.  Contrast this with "God", we will never have a meeting with Him...because it is futile, nonsense, FALSE that there is such a god.
 

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"

Quote

Quote8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
From: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6385 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6385)

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Ah, so you've been reading that thread!  I was wondering if any Christians were doing so.

I have been following it.  I find it interesting, slightly dangerous IMHO as a Christian, but still interesting.  The point in this being that the OP is complaining about something which he/she has CHOSEN to subject themself to.  This goes against the 'religion' of Atheism...Satanic or not.

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"The key words in what you've quoted are need not.  They beg the question as to what humans need.  Most humans need family in order to be happy.  It's a biological imperative probably selected by nature for its survival value, which is why family problems can feel like life or death.

Are you suggesting one cannot find happiness without family?  So orphans are doomed to a sad live without that same love?  I suggest that "family" is simply people you love and love you back.  It need not be direct kin.  How is it that kids adopted find can crave more love and acceptance from those that nutured their growth than from their genetic parents?  It's not a matter of "family" but a matter of nurture.  What I find odd is that an Atheist would "need" this love from lunatics.

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"Needs come in three broad categories: survival, success, and happiness.  Any of these can put someone in a predicament they can neither change nor exit with any sort of grace, and so they must accept.  Sometimes accepting can be hard.  At these times, coming to friends for emotional support can help.  The non-believers on this message board, or at least the ones who responded, were willing to provide that emotional support, and did.

Incidentally, we non-believers who have responded have largely declined to comment on the behavior of the relatives described in the OP.  Not their epistemology - their behavior.  I'm sure we all have opinions in that area.  But out of courtesy toward the author of the OP, we declined to comment about people he loves as family.  Such courtesy is fairly common among non-believers, and is absolutely the rule among people who follow the lifestyle described in the thread you reference above.

I'm not sure why, if the OP agreed his family were lunatics and nuts...worse than mentally challenged.  Put the falsness of "God" into it's proper perspective on the matter and then you might see why I ask why the OP or anyone of the same thinking would subject themselves to this ANYWHERE.  It's not just Mac vs. PC.  (I'm a Mac person btw)  It's life and death.  Nothing to trifle with.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"What would you (a general 'you') say to someone doing the same of mentally challenged people?  Hanging out with them simply to gain whatever is available for free?

Because the family members the OP is talking about already know that the OP doesn't subscribe to their beliefs so I think it's safe to assume that the OP's beliefs are not dependent on the OP receiving the gifts. So the OP is in no conceivable way taking advantage of anyone. Hanging out with those who have mentally developed disorders simply to gain whatever is free is far different and the comparison triggers my troll sense.

Yes, I'd agree from the perspective of the "mentally challenged".  However, view it from the perspective of the one going in simply seeing free food and gifts.  Just because the one's being taken advantage of don't "mind", doesn't make it right...or does it?

Quote from: "Davin"Hanging out with those who have mentally developed disorders simply to gain whatever is free is far different and the comparison triggers my troll sense.

Mine too.

So far, every Christian I've encountered here has triggered my troll sense.  I guess that's to be expected.

Because I have some nausea to vomit out, I think I'll post a thread about the true, the beautiful, and the good, and how they aren't the same.

Hey, I just noticed we have an emoticon that matches you-know-who:  

EDIT: typo.

Quote from: "Davin"A little quip: "[...]"you" claim in Atheism and the scientific method of your thinking driving your 'faith'[...]" It is not 'faith' whether in quotes or not. The lack of belief in something, can never be faith, because it is the absence of it. And empty cup is not a cup with water in it. Also, "I've" never made any claim similar to the claim you claim I have claimed.

While I see it as such, I understand your point and respect it.  I'll try to keep this in mind.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
From: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6385 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6385)

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Quote from: "Davin"Yes, I've read that thread. It's not a concept I subscribe to as you can see by my above response. What is your point in bringing this up in response to my response?

It wasn't necessarily directed at you exactly, but at anyone reading this topic...and more specifically since Inevitable Droid is participating in this topic, it related directly to him.  However it does, IMO, speak to any like-minded.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"What would you (a general 'you') say to someone doing the same of mentally challenged people?  Hanging out with them simply to gain whatever is available for free?

Because the family members the OP is talking about already know that the OP doesn't subscribe to their beliefs so I think it's safe to assume that the OP's beliefs are not dependent on the OP receiving the gifts. So the OP is in no conceivable way taking advantage of anyone. Hanging out with those who have mentally developed disorders simply to gain whatever is free is far different and the comparison triggers my troll sense.

Yes, I'd agree from the perspective of the "mentally challenged".  However, view it from the perspective of the one going in simply seeing free food and gifts.  Just because the one's being taken advantage of don't "mind", doesn't make it right...or does it?

If the OP's family is like my family, then it's far more likely that the free food and stuff is bait to get the OP into a civilly difficult to escape position to be preached at, so the OP would have more chance of being taken advantage of than the family the OP is visiting.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"The mentally challenged do not have a choice in their disability, but family that is "uneducated", chooses folly, is unreasonable, ignores facts, whose faith drives their thinking instead of their thinking driving them does, and therein lies the difference.

Considering that research indicates that certain parts of the brain control one's tendency towards being religious and one can't have control over whether they were brainwashed I'm not sure there is much of a difference other than a difference of what exactly is wrong with the person.  No one chooses to be unreasonable, they think they are being reasonable; just think of how many people truly and honestly believe that "beauty exists" is a logical proof of god.  They can't help if they really are too dumb or have had their framework warped to the point that they can't process deeper thoughts....however if the OP's family is demonstratively intelligent in other ways then, yes, they aren't exactly genetically stuck in stupid land but there is probably still some sort of brainwashing controlling their thought patterns.  Nonetheless, I would still stand by my statement that one can love someone even though they think they are acting inappropriately...almost every child would be kicked to the curb if we didn't have that kind of capacity to love.

Quote from: "Whitney"Considering that research indicates that certain parts of the brain control one's tendency towards being religious and one can't have control over whether they were brainwashed I'm not sure there is much of a difference other than a difference of what exactly is wrong with the person.

Then the "family" isn't uneducated, futile, unreasonable, or brainwashed at all, but objects of their brain function (or dysfunction).

Quote from: "Whitney"No one chooses to be unreasonable, they think they are being reasonable; just think of how many people truly and honestly believe that "beauty exists" is a logical proof of god.  They can't help if they really are too dumb or have had their framework warped to the point that they can't process deeper thoughts...

In light of your above point...I would tend to disagree they are dumb at all.

Quote from: "Whitney"however if the OP's family is demonstratively intelligent in other ways then, yes, they aren't exactly genetically stuck in stupid land but there is probably still some sort of brainwashing controlling their thought patterns.  Nonetheless, I would still stand by my statement that one can love someone even though they think they are acting inappropriately...almost every child would be kicked to the curb if we didn't have that kind of capacity to love.

Again, this seems like we may be conveniently side-stepping the point.  If it is as Inevitable Droid promotes and how it seems Atheism on the whole says, that "God" is FALSE.  Full stop.  Is it really simply a matter of "acting inappropriately"?  As I mentioned a few posts back.  If this situation were twisted and it was my family that believed in a Great Spaghetti Monster and that once a year, the whole world (seemingly) got together to celebrate the birth of this GSM...I would not attend simply to be with family that because of my unbelief, goads me into arguments on, in my eyes, the ludicrous idea of a GSM.

We do have the capacity to love in that manner, the question remains; Why waste your time? Why spend time in 'loving' that which goads you into anything at all when you don't like it?

I would refer the OP back to:

Quote8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

-my emphasis.

Hey, chronos, you do know the icon on your [current] avatar looks closer to some medieval Turkish dude than a Palestinian from the first century, right?  

animated Dirt, if you are just trying to make the point that one who can't help but argue should avoid family situations celebrating events they are prone to argue about then I'd agree.  

But there is no problem with simply going to the event and keeping your mouth shut (leaving if provoked by others) if doing so makes the family happy and you enjoy the event aside from theological disagreement.  

If atheists avoided every holiday that was at some point touched by religion we wouldn't even be able to celebrate Halloween.

Quote from: "Whitney"animated Dirt, if you are just trying to make the point that one who can't help but argue should avoid family situations celebrating events they are prone to argue about then I'd agree.

That's almost it.  The point is...why complain about something you need not subject yourself to, ESPECIALLY when the event goes against that which you hold as truth, fact, reason, education...  If you can't help but argue...and you hate it, why go...and then complain about it?  

Quote from: "Whitney"But there is no problem with simply going to the event and keeping your mouth shut (leaving if provoked by others) if doing so makes the family happy and you enjoy the event aside from theological disagreement.

Agreed.  

Quote from: "Whitney"If atheists avoided every holiday that was at some point touched by religion we wouldn't even be able to celebrate Halloween.

Therein lies the lesser point of mild hypocrisy which I find interesting too.  I don't participate in anything I find false, unreasonable or a lie.  Maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough...I take that back.  I do give out candy at Halloween but I have no complaint about it.

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"So far, every Christian I've encountered here has triggered my troll sense.  I guess that's to be expected.

I did follow up with your responses to mine pretty well, who I have held you in high regard but you never did respond to any of the responses I made, so I guess that's to be expected. The only people I really dont care to put too much time into are those that are under a guise of sarcasm and derision who aren't worth having a discussion with.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Whitney"If atheists avoided every holiday that was at some point touched by religion we wouldn't even be able to celebrate Halloween.

Therein lies the lesser point of mild hypocrisy which I find interesting too.  I don't participate in anything I find false, unreasonable or a lie.  Maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough...I take that back.  I do give out candy at Halloween but I have no complaint about it.

It would only be hypocrisy if we celebrated holidays as a religious person would...as most holidays (at least in america) have become secularized hypocrisy is not required to enjoy traditional aspects which many of us remember from childhood.  Christmas especially is no more hypocritical for an atheist to celebrate than a christian since the holiday was stolen from pagans anyway.

Perhaps you are being too strict in how you view some of these celbrations?  To me they are all just a good excuses to get together with friends and family during times most employers are likely to close shop.  I also like decorations and getting/giving presents.

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"So far, every Christian I've encountered here has triggered my troll sense.  I guess that's to be expected.

Every once and a while there will be one who isn't. There was one not too long ago who doesn't seem to come around anymore; can't think of his name. He had a pair of glasses on top of a book for his avatar.

I wrote a post in which I addressed what seemed to me to be some mean-spirited and inaccurate things that had been written in this thread, but decided that there really wasn't much point.  However, I would like to thank elliebean for provoking a good chuckle:

Quote from: "elliebean"My family does this too, but I refuse to take the bait. I just smirk and stuff my mouth with figgy pudding.

;)

The curious are another matter entirely, and unfortunately they sometimes get mistaken for trolls or caught in the crossfire. That's why I think it never hurts to give the benefit of the doubt to borderline cases.  If somebody really is a troll, they'll show their scaly hide and green teeth without being labelled as such prematurely.

Wow, you leave for a day and return to discover yourself accused of hypocrisy and general stupidity across 3 pages of debate. Ooookay, then.

There's a great deal I could say to deny the charges, but perhaps it would be more effective to attempt describing the scenario from my perspective.

You're a college student. You arrive at home where you live with your parents, two people whom you love very dearly and who love you in return, despite some very different beliefs about life and what allegedly follows it.

"Honey," says your mother, "It's your Uncle's birthday on Wednesday and we're all getting together at his house to celebrate. He would love to see you there, and so would everyone else." You attend the birthday bash, have a few drinks, eat some food, meet with your 6 young cousins, all of whom look up to and admire you. You also socialize with a few other relatives, who are entirely polite, charming and intelligent.

Suddenly, your grandmother, having indulged in a tad too much wine, begins reminding you of how dearly she loves you and, as a result, steers the heavy-handed conversation into a religious arena. After all, she wouldn't love you very much if she didn't at least attempt, with her limited faith-based reasoning, to force you off "the path to Hell."

You respond politely that religion isn't for you, and a few other relatives overhear, making their way into the conversation. Now it's you vs. five of them. Where they were previously charming, they are now irritatingly illogical. Later, the discussion ends and, though it was frustrating for you to repeatedly drill holes in their fallacious arguments to no avail, the normal socializing resumes and without warning, you're a family again. Good times are had, and you're glad that you had a chance to catch up with them.

Next week, your parents inform you of another family gathering. This one is for Christmas. The family will drink eggnog, eat turkey, exchange gifts and have a great time. Hey, religion may not even come up. It's not like they're members of Westboro. They have lives outside religion, too.

Now, AnimatedDirt, you're asking me to tell my parents that, because I am so frustrated by the family's beliefs, I will never attend another gathering? I should, instead, scorn my aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, and parents? I should tell them that, because Christmas is based on Christian ideas, I will refuse to enjoy its secular elements, such as the gift exchange and family dinner?

Dear My Family,

I have decided that, since we disagree on a single subject, I can no longer arrive at your birthdays, holiday celebrations, assist you with yardwork, etc. In fact, I would like never to see the lot of you again. I realize that your presence in the city in which we live is unavoidable. I have discovered a damp cave on the edge of town. It is packed with diseased rodents and abrasive bums who live empty lives of squallor and alcoholism, but they do not preach religion to me. They are my new family, and they have space for me in the back, so long as I act as the fifth party for their weekly Risk tournaments. I will accept scraps from the back door when you dine in the home of my parents. Please do not purchase birthday gifts for me, as this might force many of you into some kind of "get-together" where my presence would be required. As I have stated, we are in such disagreement that this would be intolerable. Find your children a new role model and stop calling me.

                                                                                                                                                     Love, dgmort19

Quote from: "Recusant"You would be thinking of Jac3510, who hasn't logged on for over a month.  I think he put a lot of work into his posts, and may have decided that he needed to focus elsewhere.  I recall that he has a young family, which makes great demands on one's time; he seemed to enjoy striving with atheists, but probably had to swear it off for a while.  I do agree with your assessment of him, though.  There have been others as well.  They come and go, and really, who could blame them.  Most of us are welcoming to the wandering bards of halleluja, but practically no one cuts them very much slack, and why should we?  For the most part they come here to beard the lions, and have a good idea that lions have teeth. Though such brave souls often have a faint troll aroma, that doesn't mean that they're actual trolls.  

On the other hand, I very occasionally  lurk at a Creationist forum. I enjoy reading some of their stuff, just for giggles.  But I'll never post there, because if I gave my honest opinion of their thinking, it would be trolling.  They don't want to hear what I have to say. What I'm trying to get across is that in my opinion it's very hard for a true believer to come here and not sound like a troll, at least some of the time. I'm glad that some of them do bother to stop by though; I'd enjoy this place without their presence, but probably not as much. :D I'm not familiar with a great deal of internet forums or all the terms they use but isn't a troll someone whose only purpose is to cause trouble? If an evolutionist went onto a Creationist forum it would nothing short of naïve if they truly think they're going to change anyone's mind, but I could see it as possibly being courteous and well intentioned. Plus I think religion just makes natural jerks/trolls out of a lot of people (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/12/new_rules_there_are_some_thing.php).

Quote from: "Recusant"For the most part they come here to beard the lions, and have a good idea that lions have teeth. Though such brave souls often have a faint troll aroma, that doesn't mean that they're actual trolls.

I hope this tangent is viewed by the moderators as on topic for this particular thread.  I actually think it is, since behavior on a message board and behavior at a family gathering can be parallel in some respects.  The difference of course is this: at a family gathering, many of the people there would immediately risk their lives for one another.  One minute they're annoying or tiresome, and the next, they might be dragging your unconscious body out of a burning building, straining and gasping, but refusing to leave you behind.

With regard to your quote above, Recusant - It depends on how these Christians behave once they've been told clearly and several times that logical empiricism is the only basis for truth that any of us will consider.  They can either respect that or disrespect that.  If they take a stance of disrespect and persevere in it for a length of time, then, on this message board, I find their behavior close enough to trollishness to be treated as such, at least by me, if not by the moderators, who probably need to hold themselves to a higher standard.

QuoteThe curious are another matter entirely, and unfortunately they sometimes get mistaken for trolls or caught in the crossfire. That's why I think it never hurts to give the benefit of the doubt to borderline cases.  If somebody really is a troll, they'll show their scaly hide and green teeth without being labelled as such prematurely.

I agree.  It all hinges on whether they respond with respect or disrespect once they understand our epistemology.

Quote from: "dgmort19"Is it so wrong to feel like giving up? Should I be ashamed that my mind can't bear the burden of trying to usher my family into the light of reason?  

You are fortunate you have your brother to chat with on the side.  I take it the other members of your family are seeking the discussion, not yourself.  I think what I would do is continue the conversation so long as tempers usually remain cool, but if not then it is probably best to avoid the topic of religion with them.

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"Neither you nor anyone can make a dent in the faith of your relatives because their faith doesn't derive from their thinking, but rather, their thinking derives from their faith.

I have chosen only this one sentence but I wish to hold your entire post up for applause.  Nicely stated.

Quote from: "Achronos"I would put into question why they are so overbearing in their faith towards you, instead of yourself making a choice on what to believe. My grandmother was pretty wise in not sharing her faith unless someone asked her, I think this should apply as well.

That's generally been my approach, but then in person I am the shy reserved type.  :)

Quote from: "Achronos"But if God doesn't exist, then you, I, and everyone else are nothing more than highly-evolved chimps.

Personally I have no problem living with this idea.  

Quote from: "Achronos"If this is true, then what I believe or do not believe is irrelevant. Humans are simply doomed to live on average 80 or so years and then die, on a planet that is doomed to die, orbiting a star doomed to die, in a galaxy doomed to die etc.

Unless this knowledge drives our species into acquiring technologies that permit avoidance of this fate.  We can't know what technologies we might as a species possess in the distant future.  We might seem like gods by today's standards.  As for my own life ending not much past 80, I would be grateful to make it that far, in good health.  I am not at all depressed at the thought of not existing after my death.  

Quote from: "Achronos"Even if this is the case, and I don't concede that it is, I would still choose to believe in God. Belief in God provides that flicker of hope in this dark dark world. And what else matters in the end, if not hope??

So you would choose to live believing a falsehood.  You don't think you could find meaning in your life without belief in God, even if it were a false belief?  I've heard this view expressed a number of times by Christians of various stripes.  Not having a belief in God has permitted me to foster a contentment not available to you.  You, have found your own contentment, but it requires belief in God to maintain itself.

I can't say what would happen to you emotionally should you lose your belief, but I can tell you what has happened to two other men.  Dan Barker, in his book Godless, and William Lobdell writing in Losing My Religion, both expressed finding unexpected contentment.  These were devout men who both came to discover that they did not need God to feel complete.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Therein lies the lesser point of mild hypocrisy which I find interesting too.  I don't participate in anything I find false, unreasonable or a lie.  Maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough...I take that back.  I do give out candy at Halloween but I have no complaint about it.

It is possible to value all these holidays as enjoyable secular events.  In my situation there are no immediate family members who take on the religious celebrations with a mind to them being strictly religious gatherings.  Those trapping are left at the door and not discussed in mixed company.

Quote from: "Whitney"It would only be hypocrisy if we celebrated holidays as a religious person would...as most holidays (at least in america) have become secularized hypocrisy is not required to enjoy traditional aspects which many of us remember from childhood.  Christmas especially is no more hypocritical for an atheist to celebrate than a christian since the holiday was stolen from pagans anyway.

I would respectfully disagree.  While I agree with you 100% that the holiDAY was stolen from pagans, no doubt about that, the underlying 'reason for the season' is all about a self-existent God that came down in the likeness of His creation.  It speaks volumes against what Atheism believes, or better, disbelieves.  It is a nice holiday that certainly is becoming more and more secularized, however i don't believe it will become so secularized that no longer will we remember the reason we celebrate it.  From the gifts the Maji brought and we emulate, to the evergreen trees and undying sun's rebirth...all aspects point to a belief in something that is worshiped.

Quote from: "Whitney"Perhaps you are being too strict in how you view some of these celbrations?  To me they are all just a good excuses to get together with friends and family during times most employers are likely to close shop.  I also like decorations and getting/giving presents.

Perhaps to a degree you are correct.  I feel the same way, however, when the hard black and white thinking is turned on the believer in other aspects of life and belief.

Quote from: "dgmort19"Now, AnimatedDirt, you're asking me to tell my parents that, because I am so frustrated by the family's beliefs, I will never attend another gathering? I should, instead, scorn my aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, and parents? I should tell them that, because Christmas is based on Christian ideas, I will refuse to enjoy its secular elements, such as the gift exchange and family dinner?

Haven't you not only scorned them, but publically insulted them with your agreement that they goaded you, through delusion, ignorance, non-educated, absurdity and unreason to the point of telling your own family to ****off the next time?

Then on top of this you allow other supposedly like-minded people as yourself to insult your own family, which you "love"...if that's not a contradiction in terms, I don't know what is...and call them uneducated, brainwashed, hallucinating and in the end calls them fools?  This is the family you love?...and you agree...all the while then insinuating by the above comment to me that suggesting to you that you shouldn't partake of these rediculous meetings might then be in your best interest since the ideas behind the meetings AND these less evolved people, goes opposite to what you are claiming here??  These are the same people you love, yet are ready to say, "****off", but I'm the one your saying, "you're asking me to tell my parents..."  This ON TOP of your Atheism compounds your hypocrisy in my eyes and is precisely the reason I'm questioning here.

Now I hope you don't get angry at me, (but I am sure I'll get an ear full) but remember for one moment, I'm not the one(s) calling your loved ones stupid, ignorant, brainwashed, uneducated, crazy fools.  It amazes me.  I think if this were to happen right in your physical presence, you wouldn't stand for it.  But here...

Quote from: "Cycel"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Therein lies the lesser point of mild hypocrisy which I find interesting too.  I don't participate in anything I find false, unreasonable or a lie.  Maybe I'm just not thinking hard enough...I take that back.  I do give out candy at Halloween but I have no complaint about it.

It is possible to value all these holidays as enjoyable secular events.  In my situation there are no immediate family members who take on the religious celebrations with a mind to them being strictly religious gatherings.  Those trapping are left at the door and not discussed in mixed company.

I believe you can celebrate the time as a family, however until God is removed 100% from Christmas, it is not a secular holiday.

Is it possible to be educated, not brainwashed, without ignorance, logical, not deluded...and be Christian?

QuoteHaven't you not only scorned them, but publically insulted them with your agreement that they goaded you, through delusion, ignorance, non-educated, absurdity and unreason to the point of telling your own family to ****off the next time?

I have stated that their beliefs are deluded and that I find their ignorance incredibly frustrating. This does not mean that I despise them. I was simply looking for others with whom to discuss similar family lives. It is quite the complicated situation. I suspect that you, yourself, may not have experienced anything such as the family scenario I have described, yes? One might not understand until placed within it.

QuoteThen on top of this you allow other supposedly like-minded people as yourself to insult your own family, which you "love"...if that's not a contradiction in terms, I don't know what is...and call them uneducated, brainwashed, hallucinating and in the end calls them fools? This is the family you love?

I don't think I have "allowed" anything, nor have I been malicious toward them. Unless I am mistaken, the only one delivering less-than-complimentary adjectives to them, at this point, is you. For that very reason, you'll notice that you are the only one whom I feel the need to correct within this discussion. :(

Just because some people still include religious idea in a holiday celebration doesn't mean that a large group of others don't.  Even polls indicate that for a significant portion of the population (not just in one country) don't think religion has much to do with christmas anymore.

QuoteA ComRes poll of 1,000 adults for the think tank found that just under half (46 percent) agreed with the statement that the birth of Jesus is “irrelevant” to their Christmas, compared with 51 percent who believe His birth is relevant.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20 ... christmas/ (http://www.christianpost.com/article/20101208/pollhalf-of-britons-say-jesusbirth-is-relevant-to-their-christmas/)

QuoteIn a recent telephone poll participants were asked: Does Christmas Day have any religious significance for you?
While the poll found that for 55 per cent Christmas Day had no religious significance, the day still held a religious dimension for 45 per cent of New Zealanders.
The result mirrored a similar poll taken a year ago, said Research NZ director Emanuel Kalafatelis.
The poll found that those aged 60 and over were more likely to agree that Christmas Day had religious significance for them (63 per cent), compared with 31 per cent of 15 to 29 year-olds.
"The results by age group indicate that our attitudes to Christmas are in a state of transition," Mr Kalafatelis said.
"While the religious aspects of Christmas are still alive and well for a sizeable number of New Zealanders, this group is likely to grow smaller over time.
"This change will be driven by the relatively higher number of younger people who attach no religious significance to Christmas."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/773466

Quote* More than 9 out of 10 Americans celebrate Christmas. For most of them, it's a religious holiday, but 28 percent only participate in secular observances, like tree-trimming and gift-giving, rather than honoring its spiritual dimension.

http://blogs.chron.com/believeitornot/2010/12/poll_americans_are_still_reall.html

QuoteTwo-thirds of people surveyed by Harris Interactive felt their loved ones were the most important aspect of Christmas, followed far behind by parties and presents...
Despite the stress and commercialism of the holiday season, what most Americans enjoy most about Christmas is spending time with family and friends, according to a new poll. . . Just over a third said most people believe the holidays are a chance to spend time with loved ones and celebrate traditions. The other two thirds were split between believing it's about presents and feeling that it's about both.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1044149420071210


Even the word "holiday" itself originates from holy day yet we use it to describe secular celebrations too...so obviously having the word christ in christmas has no bearing on if the celebration is secular.  No one complains about goodbye or the days of the week being non-secular because they contains remnants of religious ideas either.

Quote from: "dgmort19"Sorry for the earful.

I knew it would come.

I make the point that you and others have said your family is this and that, yet it's me insulting you and them??

Well you state that I'm insulting them, and that this should override my affection for them.

1) I don't consider discussing their factual ignorance an insult. They're ignorant. To call them otherwise would be false.
2) You can simultaneously love and find someone ignorant.

Quote from: "dgmort19"Well you state that I'm insulting them, and that this should override my affection for them.

1) I don't consider discussing their factual ignorance an insult. They're ignorant. To call them otherwise would be false.
2) You can simultaneously love and find someone ignorant.

Only ignorant?  There's a slew of other adjectives that have been haphazardly flung in their direction, not to mention the "issuing of a polite, yet meaningful, ****off" the next time.

I suppose since you think it is me referring to them as such, I will offer my apology for doing so.

No apologies necessary, man.

QuoteUnless I am mistaken, the only one delivering less-than-complimentary adjectives to them, at this point, is you.

I am not under the impression that you have insulted them. When I said this, I merely meant that you seem to think that I have.

Quotea slew of other adjectives

None that I have used to describe them. My OP used the nouns "ignorance," "absurdity" and "delusion." You came up with the terms "stupid" and "fools." If the latter terms have been haphazardly flung in their direction, they were not done so by me.

Quoteissuing of a polite, yet meaningful, ****off" the next time

This was humor. I would never speak to them in such a way. However, I felt that it captured the feelings of agitation that I meant to convey.

Quote from: "dgmort19"No apologies necessary, man.

QuoteUnless I am mistaken, the only one delivering less-than-complimentary adjectives to them, at this point, is you.

I am not under the impression that you have insulted them. When I said this, I merely meant that you seem to think that I have.

Thank you, however it remains my opinion you are insulting the ones you love.  You have not protected them in the least from people insinuating they are those things.  The love you feel towards them, certainly isn't coming across when you agree (by not disagreeing or correcting) they are what your like-minded friends on this forum have said they are.

Quote from: "dgmort19"

Quotea slew of other adjectives

None that I have used to describe them. My OP used the nouns "ignorance," "absurdity" and "delusion." You came up with the terms "stupid" and "fools." If the latter terms have been haphazardly flung in their direction, they were not done so by me.

I challenge you to reread the thread from start to finish (to this point at least) and see exactly who came up with these terms for your family.  I didn't pull "stupid" or "fools" out of thin air.

Quote from: "dgmort19"

Quoteissuing of a polite, yet meaningful, ****off" the next time

This was humor. I would never speak to them in such a way. However, I felt that it captured the feelings of agitation that I meant to convey.

Humor.  I can accept it as humor.  If, therefore, you'd never speak to them this way, why allow others to do the same or worse in public words?

I think you understand that because they love you and your brother, they don't want your life to end in this life.  They wish for you to be a whole family in this life and beyond.  Appreciate that (I think you do) and embrace their love in trying as weak and as "ignorant"...as they do to convince you.  If they argue with you, it is simply that they feel the same frustration from the opposite perspective as you.  Don't complain for if they didn't love you, they wouldn't try to change your heart.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Thank you, however it remains my opinion you are insulting the ones you love.  You have not protected them in the least from people insinuating they are those things.  The love you feel towards them, certainly isn't coming across when you agree (by not disagreeing or correcting) they are what your like-minded friends on this forum have said they are.

Why should he care what some random atheists on some forum may have said about his family when they weren't doing so with the intent of throwing insults at them but with the intent of discussing the topic at hand?  

plus, you were the first person (and pretty much the only person) to use the word "fool"  viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408&start=15#p94483 (http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408&start=15#p94483)
first use of the word fool by anyone but AD...directed at AD: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408&start=15#p94568 (http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408&start=15#p94568)
I said word stupid but didn't direct it at his family viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408&start=15#p94568 (http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408&start=15#p94568)
First use of the word fool about the topic by anyone but AD, not directed at OP's family: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408&start=30#p94585 (http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408&start=30#p94585)
First time OP's family is in any way refered to as idiots or stupid...in response to posts made by AD (my post, I have no reason to apologize to OP for it and OP has no need to defend his family as it's obvious I'd addressing AD's comments and not the OP): viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408&start=30#p94601 (http://happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6408&start=30#p94601)

note:  I did not cite all of the many places where AD referred to the OP's family as fools.

So. It's obvious to me that you are either remembering the entire thread incorrectly by projecting your own thoughts onto others...or you, for some unknown reason, want to piss off the OP by claiming he hates his family.  I hope it's the first option because the second is rather mean spirited.

I think someone owes someone an apology.

Quote from: "Whitney"I think someone owes someone an apology.

I'm sorry if you feel it was me calling his family these names (I already offered up my apology), but to correct you, one need not look any farther into the thread than the second post where the suggestion is to leave "fools to their folly"...before I ever got into the topic.  From that point on and then only using adjectives others had used to describe his/her family and the like, including "uneducated religious family", did I refer to the family as such only in questioning the absense of protecting his/her family's honor and in terms to degrade.  If I did, it would simply be calling myself the same as I too am Christian.  Now that would seem absurd and ignorant if that was my purpose to do so, wouldn't it?

I try hard to respect others beliefs. So I think to myself, just maybe they are right. I have no conclusive proof that they are wrong.

With that in mind I avoid debates as to the existence of god/s as I know I can't prove my side of the debate and they can't prove their side of the debate, so what's the point really. Let them be happy and joyous in their beliefs and let you be happy and joyous in your stance.

For me Christmas is a family tradition, where we get together, exchange presents, eat lots of food and drink lots of alchohol. God, Jesus and Christianity has nothing to do with it for me. My family isn't religious so the topic of God, Jesus etc never comes up.

I do find it frustrating when people say things or write things about God e.g. sign off a Christmas Card with "God Bless" as to me it feels that they are pushing their beliefs onto me as if it is a fact. My stubborn innerself wants to immeadiately refute the statement but I know that no good will come of it. So I simply think that it is an honor that they are hoping that their god/s will bless me as they hold their god/s close and dear to their heart. I still don't get warm fuzzies but at least I don't react. I know I shouldn't hold my values onto others and expect them to be curteous back to me by respecting my beliefs. The thing with Faiths is that it is viral, the churches want people to spread the word and convert the unconverted. It's disgusting but is more of a reflection of the faith and the church rather than the individual worshippers.

While I missed one instance of the word fool (a saying at that) I think the main point is you are getting worked up over nothing since no atheists in this thread have responded to the OP with the intent of attacking his family members...in fact this whole thread would have gone rather smoothly if it had not been for disruptive posts made by two theists members...

Quote from: "Whitney"While I missed one instance of the word fool (a saying at that) I think the main point is you are getting worked up over nothing since no atheists in this thread have responded to the OP with the intent of attacking his family members...in fact this whole thread would have gone rather smoothly if it had not been for disruptive posts made by two theists members...

You think it is being disruptive when someone posts a question and others give advice or thoughts on the point in question?  You think it's disruptive for someone to find exception with others using words and/or sayings to describe, if not his/her family, then those EXACTLY like his/her family with these derogatory terms such as, fools, uneducated, illogical, stupid, hallucinating, deluded...?  I'm being disruptive?

Is it, therefore, ok to use "sayings" to belittling others on this forum?  If so, please point me to where the list of these so called appropriate "sayings" is.

My original reason in getting "worked up" is that the OP seemed willing to tell his family to ****off, a vulgar and insensitive jump to a conclusion, with people one seemingly loves and "wants" to enjoy.  The "****off" seemed to indicate to me there was no reason to inflict him/herself with such "pain" being that the reason to gather is based on "uneducated, foolish, illogical..." thinking.  This still doesn't seem contradictory?

AD if you can't see how the way you have approached the OP is disruptive then that's not my problem..not interested in discussing further.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"however i don't believe it will become so secularized that no longer will we remember the reason we celebrate it.  From the gifts the Maji brought and we emulate, to the evergreen trees and undying sun's rebirth...all aspects point to a belief in something that is worshiped.

I don't forget the reason Christians celebrate Christmas, they aren't my reasons though.
In most of the world there is no Thanks Giving, so Christmas is the one day many families get together.
No god is mentioned at my families Christmas gatherings, the guy in the red suit is popular though.
You work a couple of hundred days and you get a few off as public holidays, I don't begrudge the Christian label on the day, but the day is mine.
I suspect families got together and exchanged gifts before baby J made his appearance, seems kind of natural.

Christmas is celebrated in Japan, Jesus doesn't seem to rate a mention though.

http://www.tanutech.com/japan/jxmas.html (http://www.tanutech.com/japan/jxmas.html)

QuoteChristmas in Japan is quite different from the Chrismas celebrated in most countries in which the population has a large percentage of Christians or a Christian heritage. Only 1/2 of 1% of the Japanese population is estimated to be Christian, with the majority of Japanese being tolerant of all faiths: Buddhism, Christianity, Shinto, etc. In spite of this, the Japanese are great lovers of festivals and celebrations, including Christmas.

December 25th is not a national holiday in Japan, although December 23rd, which is the birthdate of the present emperor, is. Although it is not an official holiday the Japanese tend to celebrate Christmas, especially in a commercial way. The Japanese celebrate Christmas Eve by eating a 'Christmas Cake' which the father of the family purchases on his way home from work (or his wife does in the case where he has to work on Christmas Eve). Stores all over carry versions of this Christmas cake and drop the price of it drastically on December 25th in order to sell everything out by the 26th. This has resulted in a rather interesting expression in which young girls are referred to as a 'Christmas cakes': marriageable until their 25th birthday and requiring heavy discounts to get married after their 25th birthdays.

Quote from: "Stevil"I do find it frustrating when people say things or write things about God e.g. sign off a Christmas Card with "God Bless" as to me it feels that they are pushing their beliefs onto me as if it is a fact. My stubborn innerself wants to immeadiately refute the statement but I know that no good will come of it. So I simply think that it is an honor that they are hoping that their god/s will bless me as they hold their god/s close and dear to their heart. I still don't get warm fuzzies but at least I don't react. I know I shouldn't hold my values onto others and expect them to be curteous back to me by respecting my beliefs. The thing with Faiths is that it is viral, the churches want people to spread the word and convert the unconverted. It's disgusting but is more of a reflection of the faith and the church rather than the individual worshippers.

I feel the same when I have to interact with religious family members, I tend to cringe inside when they talk about things from the book of mormon that I find to be complete absurdities. I'm sure they feel the same though, I got a really strange look from my girlfriends parents one day when I mentioned something about evidence of people eating potatoes in south america something like 14,000 years ago.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"I don't forget the reason Christians celebrate Christmas, they aren't my reasons though.
In most of the world there is no Thanks Giving, so Christmas is the one day many families get together.
No god is mentioned at my families Christmas gatherings, the guy in the red suit is popular though.
You work a couple of hundred days and you get a few off as public holidays, I don't begrudge the Christian label on the day, but the day is mine.
I suspect families got together and exchanged gifts before baby J made his appearance, seems kind of natural.

Christmas is celebrated in Japan, Jesus doesn't seem to rate a mention though.

The mention is in the name of the holiday.  Until the holiday's name is changed, even if everything about it becomes secularized, the name still "rates a mention" to it's origin.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"The mention is in the name of the holiday.  Until the holiday's name is changed, even if everything about it becomes secularized, the name still "rates a mention" to it's origin.

I think you are being really silly just to try to win an argument . . . or maybe you just want to see how much you have to annoy people before they tell you bugger off.

Next thing you'll be telling us we are hypocrites for using the days of the weeks (which would put you in that boat too), saying goodbye, and even drinking beer.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"The mention is in the name of the holiday.  Until the holiday's name is changed, even if everything about it becomes secularized, the name still "rates a mention" to it's origin.

I think you are being really silly just to try to win an argument . . . or maybe you just want to see how much you have to annoy people before they tell you bugger off.

Next thing you'll be telling us we are hypocrites for using the days of the weeks (which would put you in that boat too), saying goodbye, and even drinking beer.

I suppose that is what you are waiting for, but no, I'm not going to give the "AH-HA" you're waiting for.  The point of CHRISTmas is valid in that Magic Pudding said,

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Christmas is celebrated in Japan, Jesus doesn't seem to rate a mention though.

To which I simply say the mention is at the beginning of the sentence in the name of the holiday.  I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm out of my league here with the caliber of debators and knowledge base here against my point of view.  I have no delusion of grandeur here that I'll "win" an argument.  What value is there in that anyway?  I'm simply giving my point of view in a forum, apparently open to all to give.  It's called discussion.  I've made points and asked questions.  I believe this is a valid point to which Magic Pudding and others are free to counter as they see fit.  If they do, are they also in "my boat" of "being silly just to try to win an argument"?

The Truth and Fact of the matter which goes against what Magic Pudding mentioned is that CHRISTmas does and forever will "rate a mention" as long as it is called Christmas.  The Atheist likes to deal with provable facts.  The fact is the holiday is called Christmas.

I made no mention of the days of the week, of which they are not even Christian names, but rather pagan names for their gods.  I don't get your point at all.  Celebrating Christmas, you are right and I've acknowledged early in this thread, is a point of hypocrisy in my eyes, but it is not the main point here.  It's a lesser point here.  A valid point in a thread specifically speaking about Christmas and the Atheist however.

Christmas's roots are found in pagan Solstice celebrations which were co-opted by the Catholic church in order to ease the transition of communities from pagan to Christian.  For centuries, Christmas was a Catholic celebration - Christ's Mass - to celebrate Jesus's birth.  Later, Protestants wanted nothing to do with it and many Protestant communities outlawed the celebration.  Also, the way Christmas is celebrated today began in the Victorian Era, up until then it was a rather rowdy holiday hardly focused on family and family togetherness at all - so the Christmas you are so wrapped up in, Animated Dirt, has really only been around about 150 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_%28liturgy%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_%28liturgy%29)

QuoteThe term "Mass" is derived from the Late Latin word missa (dismissal), a word used in the concluding formula of Mass in Latin: "Ite, missa est" ("Go; it is the dismissal").[1][2] "In antiquity, missa simply meant 'dismissal'.

I can live with this, a dismissal of Christ.
Christ be gone, you are dismissed, that's a holiday I can celebrate with enthusiasm.

Christmas is often forced upon society within Countries with historically Christian roots. These become Annual holidays where it is is illegal to open many businesses and illegal to enforce employees to work. Businessess make the most of the Christmas present giving tradition because it becomes a huge profit windfall for themselves. With many sales and exciting advertising as well as TV programmes getting into the tradition it becomes difficult for parents not to join in the celebrations. Simply put, the little kiddies expect some decent presents.
The family tradition of getting together over the holiday period transcends the origins of the tradition and make a new life for it. Christmas it the time of year for families to take some time out and reconnect, to enjoy each others company and to give the economy a bit of a boost with mass spending.

I do think it is unfortunate and unfair that many Countries enforce Christian based holidays on the people. It would be much fairer and tolerant if countries would recognise all religions and non religions and let each person decide which holidays they would like to participate in. e.g. Chinese people could list themselves to celebrate Chinese New Year, Indians to celebrate Diwali, Muslims and Christians their own traditional holidays, atheists could choose a few days a year (maybe longer new year celebrations). But regardless, those that live in a Christian rooted country are pretty much forced to work around the annual holidays and festivities of that country. For Atheists who don't have any reason to ignore these holidays they simply make the most of the time off and pickup on family traditions rather than religious aspect of this time.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Christmas is celebrated in Japan, Jesus doesn't seem to rate a mention though.

Christmas is quite a spectacle in Japan. It's more like Valentine's Day to them.

I'm so unhappy about my country forcing me to celebrate christmas with a paid vacation.  Those freaking jerks!!!!!

Although I follow the philosophic points... Sometimes some of them just seem so silly... : P

-ihateusenames

Ps: I actually live in japan ATM and, yeah Christmas is more a passing holiday of "oh Christmas? Oh.. Yeah what's that? Oh yeah.  Oh yay it's new years!!! Hurray! Happy new years!"