Happy Atheist Forum

Most of my life I've debated anyone I could find (intent on finding common threads in the different sects of religion) on their religious beliefs.  My main goal was and still is to find out why they believe what they believe.  Most people seem to believe what they were raised to believe and do not know why; even when the rituals are illogical even to them.  

I'd like to hear your most interesting story you've had in your life that involved a religious debate.  

The first one I ever had was in high school with a friend who was a jehovah's witness.  I remember we talked for about three or four hours after I tried to give him a birthday present he wouldn't accept.  You see they don't celebrate their birthdays and you would not believe the reason for it!  Hopefully I can remember the details from a talk 15 years ago... it was because of the celebration of King Solomon's birthday that he had a beautiful dancer dance for him, he granted a request from her, she wanted john the baptist's head on a platter, and he acquiesced, so now they do not celebrate birthdays for that reason.... he also mentioned that blowing out the candles was construed as black magic.  And because he believes these events happened, he can not accept a gift from me on his birthday!! I tried to tell him that allowing someone to give him a gift is giving them a gift in a way because it was allowing them to feel like they did something nice for someone.

The dancer in question was not a dancer, but was Salome, stepdaughter of Herod Antipas and daughter of Herodias, and it was him for whom she danced the Dance of the Seven Veils on the occasion of his birthday. John the Baptist had allegedly said that Herod's marriage to Herodias was illegal, for which she never forgave him, and it was for this reason that Salome asked for his head on a platter.

Solomon was much, much earlier.

Know your wibble, peeps!

Quote from: "hackenslash"The dancer in question was not a dancer, but was Salome, stepdaughter of Herod Antipas and daughter of Herodias, and it was him for whom she danced the Dance of the Seven Veils on the occasion of his birthday. John the Baptist had allegedly said that Herod's marriage to Herodias was illegal, for which she never forgave him, and it was for this reason that Salome asked for his head on a platter.

Solomon was much, much earlier.

Know your wibble, peeps!

Thanks for the additional details, I could have looked the story up and was sure someone would know the details, but still thought it would be fun to share.  Know my wibble?  sounds kind of offensive...  I made it clear I was re-telling something a teenager told me fifteen years ago.  Salome did indeed dance for him, so she was a dancer and it was on his birthday, and she was the one to ask for john's head on a platter... so my story wasn't wasn't totally inaccurate (sorry if I had the wrong King, I do remember it being Herod now that you mention it), I just didn't have her reason and her name.  

hackenslash.... do you have a story or just a commentation?

I wasn't berating you, I was ensuring that the detail of the story was accurate.

And no, I don't have a particular story for you. I don't have religious debates.

Edit: Oh, and the 'know you wibble, peeps' is a general admonition to all to know their wibble, wibble being the idiocy that people believe.

I generally don't debate religion irl, unless it is pushed upon me.  To prevent that, a simple "I have no faith" cuts that to the quick.

Although, a few years back a neighbor who was a Mormon, and a bit of a traveler, would have missionaries visit.  When she was out of town, we'd chat (I was out on the balcony smoking).  We'd have friendly discussions, not "debates".  I'd explain why I was faithless, and they'd explain why they believed.  We neither convinced the other, but I came to appreciate that not only were there some missionaries who were cool, I also came to realize that I was (rightly or wrongly) a representative of all atheists, and that it was part of my job not to make all atheists look like dicks.

So now, I only get that way online.  

eta:  Where the hell has Pinkocommie been?  I miss her!

I've been in a few friendly debates and a few really cutthroat ones, however, the more I think of a story to share here, the more I realize how generic all my stories really are. Nothing was said to me that has not been said to thousands of atheists before me, and nothing I said has not been said before either, I think...

I still find enjoyment in debating religion, but when you think about it, there is little TO debate, unless you want to go into the finer points of theology itself, which I, for the lack of proper qualifications, do not do.

All debates seem to boil down to this:

Guy at the door: "Good news, my friend!"
Me half asleep: " :| "
Him: "Bible (or other books) ... ... ... ... ..."
Me: "By proof I mean evidence of more than that humans could write fiction 2000 years ago"
Him: "Prophecies... ... ... ..."
Me: " :| "
Him "Save soul from a fiery pit with demons and devils and sinners and torment and pain and suffering and... ... ... ..."
Me "Sorry. Sold soul a long time ago. Goodnight   "

Recently I had quite a shock when talking to a good (best?) friend about the flood story.  To hear a guy who took meteorology electives in college and who has held amateur astronomy/cosmology as a hobby since youth tell me that ~6,000 years ago windows opened in the firmament through which the upper half of the waters from Genesis 1:6-7 flooded the Earth (along with the fountains of the deep, of course) and also reshaped the entire landscape of the planet into its present state as a result (so as not to leave every piece of land submerged)...  Wow.  I could not believe it, coming from someone who was, for quite some time, my academic superior with respect to GPA.

Not really that novel, as people who believe this are a dime a dozen it would seem, but to me it was incredibly shocking for until that moment I lacked a full grasp of just how literally he believes in Genesis.

I have to apologize, I'm pretty new here, and I guess I wasn't really paying attention to my word choice... just want to hear interesting stories or extremely insane ways of thinking that you've come across (debate wasn't the best choice of words)...  I need a good laugh today, and thanks to those of you who have humored me already.  

Coworker wearing a cross on a necklace:

Me: What's the T stand for?
Him: What T?
Me: On your necklace?
Him all stuffy and put out: That ain't no T, it's a cross!!
Me, grinnin: I thought it was for your wife. (her name being Tammy)
Him (starting to see the rib): It's a cross, you know, Jesus was crucified.
Me: OHHHHHhhhhhhhhh....(dead pan).....so you wear an instrument of torture and death around your neck?
Him: Shut up...



*chucklin*

Something that haunts me from time to time, during atheist ponderings..

I have a fairly vivid memory from when I was in roughly 1st grade or so (6-7 years old).  After having been raised thus far by very religious grandparents and a similarly religious single mother, I of course was dead certain that God existed.  I was living in Tempe, Arizona, in an apartment complex, and I had a friend or two of similar age from the same complex.  I remember on one occasion, while running around doing whatever 7-year-olds do, the subject of God somehow came up.  I remember at least one friend, a girl, was involved, and possibly another boy.  And I remember trying to explain to her/them the idea that God was everywhere.  They were completely befuddled by the concept, a fact of which I was 100% certain -- meanwhile, I was equally befuddled as to how they could possibly not know this.  Perhaps I remember this so vividly because it was my first occasion to "sermonize" on any topic (religious or not) to someone else as a "teacher"...  I'm sure I explained that God was invisible, and was everywhere, in mid-air, in every dust particle, etc.

Unfortunately, what I do not remember is how convinced she/they was/were of this by the time I was through.

And this is why I say it haunts me...somewhere out there, there may be a ~29 year old woman who also lived in Tempe, AZ ~22 years ago, who is now a devout fundamentalist Christian and who has me, in some way, to thank for the "good news" which I so self-assuredly imparted to her that day during her formative years...

If this sounds like you, dear reader, I apologize wholeheartedly and can assure you I had absolutely NO idea what I was talking about.  I was an ignorant child!  I'm sorry!  

Kinda weird by my standards but.....

There is a lady here I'm friends with that insists that gays are possessed by demons in some way, genetically or mentally, she's not picky as long as they are labeled possessed.  We had a nice little conversation one day about the gay population needing to 'get on with it and get straight and contribute to the population'.  I look at her and calmly point out that geneticists have found a genetic predisposition to being gay, which of course she says is the work of demons.  Then I ask her why she wants to add those 'possessed' genes back into the gene pool of the faithful by forcing them to procreate.  She just looked at me........ "I never thought of it like that.  I wonder if I can get word to the vatican?"  :raised:

i really enjoy reading all of your stories, thanks

A number of individuals have expressed being taken off guard by the silly notions of friends.  When I was about twelve I and a group of male friends were discussing sex and religion.  What two better topics are there?  When I let it slip that I had never been baptized one of my mates declared in alarm, "How can you even be alive!"  I was stunned.  I believe he was Catholic.  He also thought love was the only prerequisite to having children.  Years later I read that in rural areas of England in the 18th century it was generally acknowledged that children fared better following baptism.  Anyway, that's a memory that stands out for me.

Quote from: "KDbeads"Kinda weird by my standards but.....
 We had a nice little conversation one day about the gay population needing to 'get on with it and get straight and contribute to the population'.  I look at her and calmly point out that geneticists have found a genetic predisposition to being gay, which of course she says is the work of demons.  Then I ask her why she wants to add those 'possessed' genes back into the gene pool of the faithful by forcing them to procreate.  She just looked at me........ "I never thought of it like that.  I wonder if I can get word to the vatican?"  

You make an interesting observation.  I've wondered this myself.  If there is any genetic component in homosexuality then this is a possibility, I would think.

A while back, I had this conversation about random things with a good friend of mines (he's a Christian). It then lead to dinosaurs, in which my friend start spewing crap out of nowhere. He said that dinosaurs don't exist, and they never have. I was like "what are you talking about? There's fossils everywhere." He then said something about how the government placed them there to trick us or something. He was being ABSOLUTELY serious! I then told him there are dinosaurs in the bible, but he rejected it also. The debate lasted for a good 2 hours, in which my other friends didn't to be in the middle of. I don't really get angry when debating religious topics with anyone, but this kinda fired me up. C'mon, dinosaurs?

Hey Legs, love your profile pic ...

Unfortunately, I too don't debate anymore. It's like someone advocating the stork theory of reproduction debating an evolutionary biologist, or a flat-earther (http://theflatearthsociety.org (http://theflatearthsociety.org)) debating an astrophysicist. It's kinda pointless.

Back in the day, my mom and I would debate a lot and no matter what I say, she always comes back to: Well, you cannot DISPROVE the existence of god, so I'm going to believe because IF he is real, then I have everything to gain. Yet another victim of Pascal's Wager.

On another note, if you're looking for common threads between religions, I found this site to be quite helpful: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ (http://www.sacred-texts.com/)

Also, have you seen Bill Maher's movie Religulous. I really enjoyed it. He delves into all the craziest craziness religion has to offer. But he also compares Jesus to Horus (an Egyptian savior): Both were born of a virgin, performed miracles, walked on water, were tempted in the desert, had 12 disciples, raised a man from the dead, healed the sick and the blind, were sacrificed for the "sins" of man, were resurrected and "raised up to heaven" and both were known as the way, the light, the truth and the lamb.

Another interesting theory is there's about 18 years of Jesus' life unaccounted for in the bible. Some say (http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm (http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm)) there is evidence that he travelled and argue that this would explain the parallels between Jesus' message (which seems to contradict the old testament god) and Buddhism/Hinduism and others. Also check here for more info on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus)

Quote from: "fazFwQo83"Hey Legs, love your profile pic ...

Unfortunately, I too don't debate anymore. It's like someone advocating the stork theory of reproduction debating an evolutionary biologist, or a flat-earther (http://theflatearthsociety.org (http://theflatearthsociety.org)) debating an astrophysicist. It's kinda pointless.

Back in the day, my mom and I would debate a lot and no matter what I say, she always comes back to: Well, you cannot DISPROVE the existence of god, so I'm going to believe because IF he is real, then I have everything to gain. Yet another victim of Pascal's Wager.

On another note, if you're looking for common threads between religions, I found this site to be quite helpful: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ (http://www.sacred-texts.com/)

Also, have you seen Bill Maher's movie Religulous. I really enjoyed it. He delves into all the craziest craziness religion has to offer. But he also compares Jesus to Horus (an Egyptian savior): Both were born of a virgin, performed miracles, walked on water, were tempted in the desert, had 12 disciples, raised a man from the dead, healed the sick and the blind, were sacrificed for the "sins" of man, were resurrected and "raised up to heaven" and both were known as the way, the light, the truth and the lamb.

Another interesting theory is there's about 18 years of Jesus' life unaccounted for in the bible. Some say (http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm (http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm)) there is evidence that he travelled and argue that this would explain the parallels between Jesus' message (which seems to contradict the old testament god) and Buddhism/Hinduism and others. Also check here for more info on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_years_of_Jesus)

thanks for all of the extra info... i did see bill maher's movie and everything else he has done (one of my favorite shows).  i have read about jesus's unaccounted for life also, lost books of the bible (even though i view them as stories only), and other religions with the same miracle birth story (almost detail for detail the same as prior stories from different sects- how un-original of the christians)... i will definitely look up your links, thanks again (although i am no longer interested in finding common threads, now it is just like story time to me, but i love to read so bring it on   )

yeah, i'm new to the forum and didn't think too much on the word choice of "debate", meant more toward "discussion"  although most discussions i've had kinda' have felt like debates.  and yes, the logic was crazy every time... but you do have to laugh.  it is often hilarious to me, anyway.

Quote from: "legs laney"thanks for all of the extra info... i did see bill maher's movie and everything else he has done (one of my favorite shows).

I wish I could see more of his shows ... I stay in South Africa and we don't get that sort of thing here - which only made me enjoy the movie even more  ;) )[/quote]

Here's one of my favs that requires no reading whatsoever (just sit back and relax): http://atheist-experience.com/ (http://atheist-experience.com/) - it is an atheist tv show produced by The Atheist Community of Austin, Texas. Just regular folk (who obviously read a lot), taking calls and discussing various topics. I really enjoy this show.

Quote from: "legs laney"yeah, i'm new to the forum and didn't think too much on the word choice of "debate", meant more toward "discussion"  although most discussions i've had kinda' have felt like debates.  and yes, the logic was crazy every time... but you do have to laugh.  it is often hilarious to me, anyway.

ha ha. . me too. the best is when they say "Well, OBVIOUSLY god exists!". I physically hurt myself laughing every time. Well, OBVIOUSLY, we don't know. Otherwise what becomes of your faith? One of the cornerstones of religion is to believe despite NOT knowing. Besides, if it was as obvious as the sunset or the stars, or the that tree over there, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I heard an interview of an oil worker from The Gulf of Mexico.
He wasn't worried about fossil fuels running out, because god can just hide some more somewhere else.
I have mentioned this before, but a collection of Christian weirdness wouldn't be complete without it.
I wonder why god blessed heathen countries with so much oil.

I was fourteen when i went to America for the first time on holiday. When there, i met some really nice people from Chicago. They were all between 16 and 22 IIRC. I think most of them were on holiday to celebrate finishing college, or some such. Anyway, they took a liking to me - because of my accent of course and started to show me the town! They took me with them whenever they went sailing, waterskiing, cinema, etc. We were out on a boat somewhere off the coast of Anna Maria Island when god came into the conversation. One of the girls asked me what bible i had and i responded that i didn't have one. Half of them looked rather shocked. One of the girls, Jennifer, started to ask me lots of questions about why i didn't have one and if i believed in god, etc. I answered truthfully and i think they were so surprised because i think none of them had met someone who didn't believe in god before. At no point did i get the feeling there was any animosity towards me but i did have to promise to get a bible when i got back to England, if only to shut them up about god and jebus.

So, that was my first experience of American style christianity. Needless to say, i did try to live up to my promise but got thoroughly bored before the end of Genesis. That book is not a page-turner, for sure.