Happy Atheist Forum

Since this affects anyone flying within, or out of the US, is timely, and erodes civil rights, thought it would be a place for discussion. In case you live under a rock and hadn't heard, the US Transportation Safety Admin has instituted new, squishy rules for screening airline passengers. Basically, we get multi-doses of radiation so they can see under our clothes, or a nice, gate-rape pat down.

What do you all think? Also interested to hear from those in other countries, especially if you already have this in place.

Lastly, there is a totally NOT SAFE FOR WORKphoto/cartoon attached here. Don't click on the spoiler unless you want to see two big dicks. It's the head of the TSA explaining his favorite pastime during a news conference. Saw it and thought it was funny.

[spoiler:31amak3o](https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa184%2FMcQ14%2Fvltsz--asw%2FPistole.jpg&hash=12001f6a3d3f50c6627d8c381c5928c0c6a78319)[/spoiler:31amak3o]

I'll bet that bastard has never had to undergo the indignity that he has so casually forced on Americans.

Fucker.

It's security theater, a play being put on by mock security in order to give people the illusion of safety. The TSA could no more stop a clever and devoted terrorist than I could stop a missile with my bare hands. The security measures in place now are a cruel joke, totally unnecessary and a significant violation of rights.

There is HAIRY BALLS in that spoiler!  :rant: You should know better!  :P

I don't know about you guys, but I think Janet Napolitano is looking kind of longingly at what is in Pistole's hands.

Sorry for the severe trauma, Asmodean. It is brutal, isn't it? Yuck!
 

Quote from: "Will"It's security theater, a play being put on by mock security in order to give people the illusion of safety. The TSA could no more stop a clever and devoted terrorist than I could stop a missile with my bare hands. The security measures in place now are a cruel joke, totally unnecessary and a significant violation of rights.

So sadly true, Will.

Quote from: "McQ"I don't know about you guys, but I think Janet Napolitano is looking kind of longingly at what is in Pistole's hands.

She certainly wants it...  :P

The TSA has never caught a terrorist (http://www.slate.com/id/2275448/). Ever.

Although I have to concede that no one has the right to fly, this seems really wrong to me. What are the legal issues involved here? Are there any lawyers blogging about this? Horrible stories like this, where a cancer survivor leaves TSA pat-down crying, humiliated, and covered in urine (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news), should be able to help fight the bastards.

On the bright side, this TSA nonsense makes for wonderful comedy sketches (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/16/conan-tsa-patdown-demonstration_n_784381.html).  

Quote from: "McQ"

Quote from: "Will"It's security theater, a play being put on by mock security in order to give people the illusion of safety. The TSA could no more stop a clever and devoted terrorist than I could stop a missile with my bare hands. The security measures in place now are a cruel joke, totally unnecessary and a significant violation of rights.

So sadly true, Will.

All illusion works on this principle:

[youtube:1hqcwowb]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE[/youtube:1hqcwowb]

Agreed all around.

The draconian choice of being felt up vs. irradiated is no choice at all... and I for one am unconvinced that it does anything to increase our security as a nation.

The scanners can detect items strapped to the outside of the body, but don't penetrate the soft tissue (and may concentrate radiation on the skin).
They would most likely miss a chuck of C-4 shoved up a terrorist's ass.

Just think how many bomb-sniffing dogs we could get for the price of just one of those future-cancer-machines...

The TSA says they're completely safe - this coming from the same government that had us "duck and cover" under wooden desks to protect us from radiation.

I'm pretty sure the TSA's entire research into the effectiveness of this tech only involved watching "Total Recall":

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.filmdope.com%2FGallery%2FActorsS%2F15489-19864.gif&hash=c3c0f198f11f1243b79303240607dc3499020d6c)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgoodfilmguide.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F08%2F01-Arnold-Schwarzenegger-Total-Recall.jpg&hash=5cbc008c3e3364a868692e1db62b79e4603daa58)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibabuzz.com%2Fpolitics%2Ffiles%2F2006%2F12%2Ftotal-recall-xray-scene.jpg&hash=92a64ab453f1e7f667224b6988b5bd1a05caf2fa)

Time to start looking at real estate (on Mars).

The answer seems pretty clear to me:

1) A massive refusal to submit to the scanning. Of course, we'd have to accept the delays, at least initially.
2) When [strike:3on50wbu]grop[/strike:3on50wbu] -- er, "patted down", make noises of sexual satisfaction.  This takes chutzpah because these are required to be same-sex searches, but well worth it:
3) Make a video and post it on www .GayGovernment. com or some such site specifically created for this issue, competing for a prize.
4) ???????
5) Profit!

So Osama has succeeded in irradiating huge numbers of affluent Americans.
He didn't even have to pay any Russians or Pakistanis.
He must be very happy.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fasset.soup.io%2Fasset%2F1249%2F3006_4548.jpeg&hash=4bcf1b8c529d3ea46d7014af84d379ddb6531ed1)

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"The answer seems pretty clear to me:

1) A massive refusal to submit to the scanning. Of course, we'd have to accept the delays, at least initially.
2) When grop -- er, "patted down", make noises of sexual satisfaction. This takes chutzpah because these are required to be same-sex searches, but well worth it:
3) Make a video and post it on www .GayGovernment. com or some such site specifically created for this issue, competing for a prize.
4) ???????
5) Profit!

Or how about nude protests? Or, erm... does that defeat the point?  

And Hillary was on the Sunday talkies laughing, saying she'd avoid them if she could.

Coupla things come to mind:

1) The Sec'y of State has her own goddamned airplane.  This isn't an issue for her, really; she'll just fly to the AFB nearest her home or vacation of choice, taking some Kuwaiti culture minister along to give the patina of "business."
2) If they're searching a Sec'y of State, who presumably was vetted before the job, doesn't that show a waste of resources?
3) Where the hell are the Teabaggers now, if they're so concerned about individual rights?

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"And Hillary was on the Sunday talkies laughing, saying she'd avoid them if she could.

Coupla things come to mind:

1) The Sec'y of State has her own goddamned airplane.  This isn't an issue for her, really; she'll just fly to the AFB nearest her home or vacation of choice, taking some Kuwaiti culture minister along to give the patina of "business."
2) If they're searching a Sec'y of State, who presumably was vetted before the job, doesn't that show a waste of resources?
3) Where the hell are the Teabaggers now, if they're so concerned about individual rights?

Yeah, she got a kick out of this. Apparently a lot of people in government positions are out of touch with ordinary citizens. Ain't it shocking?

And, much as I think the far right is spooky, I have heard lots of protests by tea party people (I'm surrounded by 'em). Might be something nearly everybody agrees on. Hard to believe it.

Quote from: "McQ"Might be something nearly everybody agrees on. Hard to believe it.

I wasn't listening to a local radio station the other day and all the DJs and callers were saying "you gotta play by the rules." Apparently some people are... all for it? Maybe not, ut they really didn't seem to have a problem with it. They must not be traveling anywhere soon.

Even out here in SoCal there's too much of that "What've you got to hide?" shit that made the Patriot Act #1 with a bullet.

I understand that scans can be useful, and were I on a list for legitimate reasons -- say, I was a violent felon, since reformed -- I'd submit to it.

By making is a blanket policy, they are making, to my mind, an unreasonable search and seizure violation.  This is no different than setting up a checkpoint in front of, say, LA's Staples Center and demanding that everyone submit to a weapons search.  After all, Lakers games have 14,000 attendees, not 200 passengers.

Well, this just in there is a resistance (http://www.slate.com/id/2275681/). And there is a resistance to the resistance in fear that by a large group of people opting for pat downs you'll have massive delays when you try to fly on what is already a busy time for airports.

QuoteIn case you haven't heard, there's a big holiday coming up. No, I don't mean Thanksgiving. I mean the day before it. Wednesday is the busiest air travel day of the year, and a horde of paranoid zealotsâ€"techno-libertarians, Tea Partiers, rabble-rousers, Internet activists, and congressional demagoguesâ€"has decided to make it even worse. They're calling it "National Opt-Out Day." Rather than endure an electronic scan of your body at the security gate, they want you to "opt out" and force the Transportation Security Administration to physically inspect you. Their hero is John Tyner, the man who recorded himself a week ago as he warned a TSA officer not to "touch my junk."

Ignore these imbeciles. Their plan would clog security lines and ruin your holiday for no good reason. They don't understand the importance of the electronic scans. They're wrong about the scanners' safety. And from the standpoint of dignity, their advice is insane. If you opt out of the scan, you'll get a pat-down instead. You'll trade a fast, invisible, intangible, privacy-protected machine inspection for an unpleasant, extended grope. In effect, you'll be telling TSA to touch your junk.

I'm not flying anywhere for this Thanksgiving, thank God.

I like how asserting the right to be free of unreasonable search and seizure makes one a "paranoid zealot."

Also, in this passage:

QuoteAnd from the standpoint of dignity, their advice is insane. If you opt out of the scan, you'll get a pat-down instead. You'll trade a fast, invisible, intangible, privacy-protected machine inspection for an unpleasant, extended grope. In effect, you'll be telling TSA to touch your junk.

... the writer shows a startling density.  The point is to subvert the system by using its own rules, a classic tactic of non-violent protest.  What the protest really says is, "Go ahead and touch my 'junk', so long as you're willing to pay the political price."

Really, it's sad when Americans will defend an assault on Constitutional liberties by citing ... convenience.

Reading over the news, as well as Sophus' and Asmodean's thoughts on this. I'm actually soooooooo seriously grateful for your posts (and they're also very funny, too) because it is really disheartening to see other people who are sheepily (?) willing to give up their freedoms.

I give to the ACLU (guess that makes me a card-carrying member) and at least they are starting to see an influx of protests too, which they are more than capable of helping with. But what I have found so crappy is that between the time I made my post yesterday about even the far right seeming to be up in arms about this, until today...I have talked with half a dozen people here locally who are just fine with this new feel-em-up or zap 'em policy.  :hissyfit:

I posted to my FB page a paraphrase of the oft quoted/oft misquoted -  "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Already got some idiotic replies from people on that one. "Wouldn't you rather your kids be safe than..." blah, blah...

Stooopid to the max!

Quote from: "McQ"Wouldn't you rather your kids be safe than..." blah, blah...Stooopid to the max!

Yes, safe from zapping and groping.

They can grope me, but they must buy me dinner first.


And drinks.

Quote from: "elliebean"They can grope me, but they must buy me dinner first.


And drinks.

Oh, quit playing hard-to-get already.

I'm curious about the claims that the people viewing the naked images are not getting a head in the shot. How does that work? Not everyone is the same height.

Quote from: "McQ"I posted to my FB page a paraphrase of the oft quoted/oft misquoted - "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

A nice quote. I really don't see how this is going to make us significantly safer either.

Would we let any other business get away with these sort of regulations (government enforced or not)? When can we expect cruise ships and trains to take up the same procedures? According to the Washington Post 64% of the public likes the idea of these machines. If they're going to support them for airplanes why not everything else? When and where do we draw the line?

Every month I have to go to the same ordeal, when I visit my wife in Washington DC. After 8 hours of flight, I'd do anything to get past the TSA idiocy as quickly as possible. Most of the time however, the hall is full of people from the three flights that arrived just before us.  Cool, any decent airport security in another part of the western world could handle that in less than 15 minutes, but not in the US. If I'm lucky, I could leave the airport within one hour.

In the US they seemed to have hired the most inefficient people as inhumanly possible. People who want to enter the country are not treated as humans, but as potential dangerous objects. It seems to be OK to shout us around; photograph and fingerprint us; to ask us private questions, like if we are criminals. Even the former East-German border guards were friendlier and less obnoxious   . If that is not enough, the USA already receive already loads of other information about us, before we even board the plane (like our bank data). Since incompetence seems to be a virtue in the USA (just ask my wife, she has to deal with incompetent companies every day), it is extremely likely that my personal data is not save in the hands of US bureaucracy.

Quote from: "McQ"I posted to my FB page a paraphrase of the oft quoted/oft misquoted -  "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Yeah, I've always liked that one (in all it's variations ;-)

The original is from Ben Franklin published in the 1738 edition of "Poor Richard's Almanack":

Quote from: "Ben Franklin""Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."

... really nice to see how far we've progressed in the last 270 years, huh?

Quote from: "Tom62"Every month I have to go to the same ordeal, when I visit my wife in Washington DC. After 8 hours of flight, I'd do anything to get past the TSA idiocy as quickly as possible. Most of the time however, the hall is full of people from the three flights that arrived just before us.  Cool, any decent airport security in another part of the western world could handle that in less than 15 minutes, but not in the US. If I'm lucky, I could leave the airport within one hour.

In the US they seemed to have hired the most inefficient people as inhumanly possible. People who want to enter the country are not treated as humans, but as potential dangerous objects. It seems to be OK to shout us around; photograph and fingerprint us; to ask us private questions, like if we are criminals. Even the former East-German border guards were friendlier and less obnoxious   . If that is not enough, the USA already receive already loads of other information about us, before we even board the plane (like our bank data). Since incompetence seems to be a virtue in the USA (just ask my wife, she has to deal with incompetent companies every day), it is extremely likely that my personal data is not save in the hands of US bureaucracy.

Sorry to hear you must undergo this on a regular basis. It is just as you say, sadly. And the most people here will do is laugh about it and make jokes on talk shows and late night TV. it's embarrassing.

Quote from: "joeactor"Yeah, I've always liked that one (in all it's variations ;-)

The original is from Ben Franklin published in the 1738 edition of "Poor Richard's Almanack":

Quote from: "Ben Franklin""Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."

... really nice to see how far we've progressed in the last 270 years, huh?

Oh yeah. Ben would be horrified.

Quote from: "Tom62"Since incompetence seems to be a virtue in the USA (just ask my wife, she has to deal with incompetent companies every day), it is extremely likely that my personal data is not save in the hands of US bureaucracy.

Generalize much?

Scientists challenge TSA on scanner radiation. (http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=231653). Also, a man is now suing TSA (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/23/vatican-condoms-for-hiv-p_n_787629.html), citing the 4th Amendment.

Quote from: "HuffPo"An Arkansas man has filed a federal lawsuit against the Transportation Security Administration, claiming that the agency's new screening rules are detrimental to his "emotional, psychological and mental well-being."

Robert Dean filed the lawsuit Monday in federal court in Little Rock, even though the Little Rock National Airport does not yet have the full-body scanners that have drawn criticism throughout the country. Dean's lawsuit asks a federal judge to issue an injunction stopping the TSA from conducting full-body pat-down searches and using the full-body imaging scanners.

The lawsuit claims that the new practices violate Dean's civil rights and his Fourth Amendment right protecting against unlawful searches and seizures.

TSA says it does not comment on pending litigation.

I wonder how we'll look back on this five or ten years from now.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F28.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lccz56JSI11qzlfumo1_500.jpg&hash=9ba77e74899945664c78d6e16c2c204a0074bf2d)

How do you suppose this guy's lawyer will counter the "it's your choice to fly" argument? That it's a suspicionless search?

Quote from: "Sophus"How do you suppose this guy's lawyer will counter the "it's your choice to fly" argument? That it's a suspicionless search?

I'm certain a good attorney, or team of attorneys, can make the case that flying as a mode of transportation in the 20th and 21st Centuries, is so common, and so absolutely necessary for business travel, that it is unreasonable to make the assumption that one need not fly.

There are a lot of ways to approach this , I'm sure, and I'm no lawyer, but Pistole's statement can be shown to be unreasonable at best. I just wish more people were actively protesting this. We need a huge fucking rally on the Mall in D.C.. This really scares me.

And the new memo that has purportedly been issued within the DHS is ten times more frightening, if true (I have't seen it yet, so I'm only going on early reports of it). It is reported to have the FULL backing of the President, and essentially says that anyone who objects to, or who protests the new TSA rules can be considered a Domestic Extremist and a threat to security.

Wanna know the irony in that? Here it is, from my perspective:

Say I don't like these fucked up TSA rules, because I know they violate my 4th Amendment rights (I don't, and they do).

So, I decide to voice my opinion on it, as I have done. Maybe I even stage a peaceful, legal, silent protest with a sign (as some very brave people have done already). I haven't done that, but it's legal, of course.

Well, the irony is that I took an oath (as a military officer) to defend the Constitution of the United States of America from all enemies, foreign and domestic. So...
...by defending the Constitution by exercising my GUARANTEED FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS in order to protect my GUARANTEED FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS, I will become, in my own government's eyes, a domestic extremist and a threat.

How fucking ridiculous is that?

Mac, you're damned right about that.  Were I still under oath, might it not be an obligation for me to protest?

It really pains me to see Americans sell their rights for "convenience":  "Don't protest on the busiest flight day!  You'll make the delays longer."

Because lord knows that's the most important thing to deal with.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Because lord knows that's the most important thing to deal with.

Well, if anyone here is flying for the holidays and pat downs are still too inconvenient for you, might I suggest one of these t-shirts with metallic ink that displays the 4th amendment while they screen you (http://cargocollective.com/4thamendment#802869/Metallic-Ink-Printed-T-Shirt)?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fc0573862.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com%2F1%2F2%2F67190%2F802869%2FC%2520SCAN%2520T-SHIRT.gif&hash=04ec94e953525e1e400191a20941b32657a432b2)

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Because lord knows that's the most important thing to deal with.

Well, if anyone here is flying for the holidays and pat downs are still too inconvenient for you, might I suggest one of these t-shirts with metallic ink that displays the 4th amendment while they screen you (http://cargocollective.com/4thamendment#802869/Metallic-Ink-Printed-T-Shirt)?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fc0573862.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com%2F1%2F2%2F67190%2F802869%2FC%2520SCAN%2520T-SHIRT.gif&hash=04ec94e953525e1e400191a20941b32657a432b2)

This shit is full of win!

Do they make one with an extended middle finger?

Must order T-shirt! Pure genius.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"This shit is full of win!

Do they make one with an extended middle finger?

I think the closest product they have to that is the underwear that calls them perverts.

Well, we should change that.  Nothing says "fuck you" like a nice big bird.  And these folk need it!

Some interesting thoughts from Christopher Hitchens (http://www.slate.com/id/2276166/) on this:

Quote from: "Christopher Hitchens"In Robert Harris' brilliant political thriller The Ghost, the Tony Blair character becomes exasperated with facile liberalism and says:
You know what I'd do if I were in power again? I'd say OK then, we'll have two queues at the airports.
On the left, we'll have queues to flights on which we've done no background checks on the passengers: no profiling, no biometric data, nothing that infringes on anyone's precious civil liberties, use no intelligence obtained under tortureâ€"nothing. On the right, we'll have queues where we've done everything possible to make them safe for passengers.
His angry challenge to his critics is to see which line those flying with their own children would choose to join. It's a useful thought experiment. At the rate of current progress, however, I rather fear that AQAP might accept that very challenge and make it a point to blow up a plane full of passengers who had stayed in the ostensibly secure line. Or to give up on aviation altogether and start again with trains, which would come to our protectors as a total shock. The new tactics and propaganda of the enemy show them to be both inventive and imaginative. The response of our security state shows it to possess no such qualities.

The whole thing is idiotic, I propose we get rid of airport security altogether aside from bomb-sniffing dogs and such. Everyone flies naked and is handed a .45 loaded with frangible ammo, if you don't comply you get to take the train.

I can just see the headlines "A naked palestinian man was shot dead by 41 people while attempting to hijack a southwest airlines flight today, the plane departed shortly after the assailant was rolled out the door to be retrieved by paramedics who then deposited the would-be hijacker in the nearest dumpster. An official at the airline said that this was an isolated incident and unlikely to occur again and that the passengers who shot the man will be awarded a seating upgrade for their next flight."

Just thought I'd bring this topic back from the dead-zone with this tid-bit:

QuoteThe TSA, which has deployed at least 500 body scanners to at least 78 airports, said Tuesday the machines meet all safety standards and would remain in operation despite a “calculation error” in safety studies. The flawed results showed radiation levels 10 times higher than expected.

Gee, only 10 times higher than expected?

Full article here:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/0 ... -bungling/ (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/03/tsa-radiation-test-bungling/)

I tell them my religious beliefs are against them touching me that way without at least dinner and a movie first.

I hated going through TSA. As a military person, I did fly commercial a lot. And everytime, I would get called to their little room and asked a bunch of nonsense questions. I'm like, you think I'm a terrorist? Really. BDUs on, USAF on my chest along with my last name. And it so happens I have 2 forms of photo I'd and a SSN card, all matching the name on my chest. Honestly. Ignorance must be a requirement to run the X-Ray line. I apologize if I've offended anyone here. I'm a jerk. I know.