Happy Atheist Forum

I went to a very modern chuch today. It was the first church I ever liked. They had a rock band, movie theatre seats, free pop machines, and giant video screens with videos. There wasn't any kneeling or rituals or any of that nonsense.  The sermon was basically tips on how to live a better life. The people were all very friendly. This seems like something I would like to be apart of.

But in the end, they still want you to worship some imaginary being, and devote your life to this imaginary being. So I don't think I can keep going to this church.

Why don't they have athiest churches, where you can learn how to live a good life, meet people, and do charity work and such.  But where you don't have to worship imaginary beings?

A few groups have tried to create Atheist churches with some success.  You'll find them if you google "atheist church"

The group I belong to, fellowship of freethought, though not specifically a church is intended to provide the community and charity many enjoyed when attending religious church.

I'm all set with schools, libraries, and coffee shops, but I wouldn't be against the idea of an atheist community center. It's fun to make friends with like-minded people.

If there was to be an atheist church wouldn't there have to be a set doctrine? I guess it depends on what you mean by a 'church'.

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/index.php/about/ (http://firstchurchofatheism.com/index.php/about/)

http://factschurch.com/ (http://factschurch.com/) (founded by Michael Newdow)

http://www.churchoffreethought.org/ (http://www.churchoffreethought.org/)


"Church":

QuoteChurch Defined - IRS Church DefinitionChurch Defined - IRS Church Definition

Because of First Amendment religious freedom concerns, Congress has never passed any statute anywhere which defines what a church is (beyond saying "a church or convention or association of churches", which is like saying that the definition of a duck is "one or more ducks"). The IRS, which apparently is unconstrained by the First Amendment, has nonetheless ventured where angels fear to tread, and has established criteria which, in its view, define a church as follows:

  1.     A distinct legal existence
  2.     A recognized creed and form of worship
  3.     A definite and distinct ecclesiastical government
  4.     A formal code of doctrine and discipline
  5.     A distinct religious history
  6.     A membership not associated with any other church or denomination
  7.     An organization of ordained ministers
  8.     Ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed studies
  9.     A literature of its own
10.     Established places of worship
11.     Regular congregations
12.     Regular religious services
13.     Sunday schools for religious instruction of the young
14.     Schools for the preparation of its ministers.

The Tax Court, which is apparently unconstrained by the IRS administrative criteria, has adopted its own view, consisting of most of the same criteria compacted into 7 or 8 points. See, e.g., Pusch v. Commissioner, 39 T.C.M. 838 (1980) or Chapman v. Commissioner 48 T.C. 358 (1967). In any event, not all of the 14 criteria must be met by every individual church, since only a substantial denomination will meet all of the criteria, and the IRS must allow for the existence of independent churches. Thus, there is substantial "wiggle room."

http://www.t-tlaw.com/cf-14.htm (http://www.t-tlaw.com/cf-14.htm)

Interesting on 7 and 8; hurray for religious freedom!

Quote from: "Achronos"Interesting on 7 and 8; hurray for religious freedom!

Pretty much US law allows anyone to say they are a church.  What states will accept varies; but if an atheist church was approved in texas (after a battle) then it can be approved anywhere (though I'm not personally a fan of using the church status approach for atheist groups...the word scares too many people away due to emotional baggage).

With church status comes the ability to be recognized as tax exempt without having to bother with jumping through hoops (and spending money on) applying for 501c3 status (federal non-profit).  Churches do not have to report the details of their expenses every year and therefore have virtually no accountability to whether they are spending their money in a manner befitting of a non-profit.  I think we should do away with allowing churches to automatically get non-profit status and make them go through the same motions of non-church charity organizations in order to receive the status.

(yes, derail but really what we allow churches to do is ridiculous)

QuoteThey had a rock band, movie theatre seats, free pop machines, and giant video screens with videos.

Combine that and atheism, and you have a "church" I'd want to go to.

EDIT: Sweet! I'm now a legally ordained minister at The First Church of Atheism.

Quote from: "Achronos"If there was to be an atheist church wouldn't there have to be a set doctrine? I guess it depends on what you mean by a 'church'.

Atheist doctrine: Do no harm.

There you go, that wasn't too difficult was it.

I would definitely go to church like that. But not on sunday mornings. Could the service be on friday evenings?

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"EDIT: Sweet! I'm now a legally ordained minister at The First Church of Atheism.

I'm running an experiment to see if any atheists would want to be ordained by an atheist church that requires commitment to some broad principles, standards of behavior, and respect toward a particular branch of science, with said ordination implying a real intent to officiate at weddings.  So far no one has taken me up on it, but I'll be running the experiment for a year before I shut it down.  Anyone curious can click the link in my sig.

I've done a bit of research, incidentally, and it really seems to be true that so long as 501(c)3 status isn't pursued, the federal government has no opinion on what constitutes a church, and the state of New Jersey, at least, has no opinion either.  One's own state, province, or commonwealth would have to be researched separately, of course.  Plus anyone seeking to officiate at weddings should, in my opinion, meet with the County Clerk in advance of the first officiation, to make absolutely sure the County Clerk sees no objections, and to receive guidance on proper procedure.

In other news, I've elsewhere floated the notion of an online Atheist Ethical Community - http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6146 - but enthusiasm hasn't materialized.

Freethought communities look sound to me.  I'm too lazy about driving to get involved with the one nearest me, but if there were one right down the road, I'd probably check it out.

There's a "church" near me where the non religious sing non religious hymns, sit in pews and hold non religious "sermons". Much too "church-like" for me. It almost seems like a cheap ripoff...a contradiction of sorts. It's this church-like setting that makes me not want to go.
I'd be happy with monikers such as association, community, alliance, group, league, guild, network, even club.

Quote from: "Gawen"I'd be happy with monikers such as association, community, alliance, group, league, guild, network, even club.

Fellowship?

I'm uninterested in churchy stuff, or being told what to think, which is what groups too often do.  Thanks but no thanks.

Quote from: "elliebean"

Quote from: "Gawen"I'd be happy with monikers such as association, community, alliance, group, league, guild, network, even club.

Fellowship?

ACK!!!...I forgot one. Thanks Ellie!

Not enough money in athiesm

I remember reading about one that was set up by a former bishop who lost his religion but still felt the need for community and ethical teachings. I don't remember the name of it or where it was though.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"Sweet! I'm now a legally ordained minister at The First Church of Atheism.

Ha ha. Kickass! Me too! I wonder how much I can charge for weddings? This is gonna be soooo awesome.

In the US, there are atheist fellowships. I volunteer at a couple. They meet in nonreligious public buildings---a hotel and a community center. And there are the Unitarians. Most Unitarians are very receptive to atheists, agnostics, humanists, freethinkers, and they generally have their own church buildings. You don't (yet) see the sort of private malls that the modern megachurches build, just because there are not (yet) enough of us concentrated in one geographical area to make it affordable.

I think it's interesting how megachurches are modernizing their message to attract patrons. Instead of preaching hell fire, self sacrifice, and rewards in the next life, they are much more about enjoying life in the here and now---look up the so-called prosperity gospel. If this trend continues, I suggest that tomorrow's megachurches will BE atheist.

Quote from: "metaed"If this trend continues, I suggest that tomorrow's megachurches will BE atheist.

In effect, if not by proclamation, sure.  They already worship the dollar.

I'm so much of a scientarian that if a Chapel of Science existed, and wasn't too far away, and what went on there was weekly communal gatherings, with inspirational readings out loud from a pulpit, the airing of brief YouTube clips on a big screen, a leader talking to us about how great science is, the community singing some cool anthems lauding discovery and invention, and then coffee and cake afterward - I would go, because I would enjoy it.

Quote from: "SomewhereInND"Not enough money in athiesm

We can change that, if more high power atheists would come out of the closet.

Quote from: "Parsifal"

Quote from: "SomewhereInND"Not enough money in athiesm

We can change that, if more high power atheists would come out of the closet.

I don't think so, the dodgy preachers lie trick and steal.
They use techniques developed over centuries that elicit trust in some people.
To me their every move makes me distrust them more.
I may buy a book if I can't borrow it, but I'm not leaving my house to Dawkins to ease my way into a non existent next life.

Uh... Why would we WANT atheist churches..?  

Can we not congregate without the facade of organised religion? Why not have atheist poker clubs in stead? Or societies like HAF, only "IRL"..?

Quote from: "Asmodean"Uh... Why would we WANT atheist churches..?  

Can we not congregate without the facade of organised religion? Why not have atheist poker clubs in stead? Or societies like HAF, only "IRL"..?

There's certainly no need to call the things churches if we don't want to.  We can call them whatever we want, like, say, feelgood assemblies.  If there were a Scientarian Feelgood Assembly that met weekly near my home for inspirational talks, movies, and readings on the topic of science and how awesome it is, plus coffee and cake, I would attend.

The only reason to try to establish something called a church is so we could claim to have clergy, and the only value inherent in that is the fact that in America, clergy can legally officiate at weddings.  If I want an atheist to officiate at my wedding, that atheist must either be clergy or else must have some other legally recognized role that permits officiation.

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"If I want an atheist to officiate at my wedding, that atheist must either be clergy or else must have some other legally recognized role that permits officiation.

Can't a judge do that..? Or like... A ship's captain..?  :hmm:

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"If I want an atheist to officiate at my wedding, that atheist must either be clergy or else must have some other legally recognized role that permits officiation.

Can't a judge do that..? Or like... A ship's captain..?  :hmm:

I was made married by a celebrant, on a boat on Botany Bay.

Quote from: "Asmodean"Can't a judge do that..? Or like... A ship's captain..?  :hmm:

Sure!  And if atheist - mission accomplished!

None of this makes sense unless, for a particular couple, it really matters that the officiant be atheist.  Presumably this would mean that atheism matters not only to both members of the couple, but to the relationship itself.  For example, perhaps they met on an atheist message board like this one, or at a freethought fellowship meeting.  Or perhaps they work together as activists on behalf of secularism.  Or perhaps they made a solemn vow to raise their children atheist, and they want that vow to be consecrated as part of the wedding ceremony.

I think I get it...

As far as I know, here, there are provincial officials who do out-of-church weddings and religion, or lack thereof, is not a part of the ceremony in such cases... Basically, you sign some papers, exchange some precious metals and live happily until divorse.

Here are some videos one might present at a Scientarian Feelgood Assembly.

[youtube:1nu6z4e2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erut8tMlEoQ[/youtube:1nu6z4e2]

[youtube:1nu6z4e2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vioZf4TjoUI[/youtube:1nu6z4e2]

Quote from: "Inevitable Droid"There's certainly no need to call the things churches if we don't want to.  We can call them whatever we want, like, say, feelgood assemblies.  

I prefer the term "university", because to me learning is the only worthy homage we can -- and ought -- to pay to a blind universe.

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"EDIT: Sweet! I'm now a legally ordained minister at The First Church of Atheism.

Wow, talk about unexpected e-mails:

Quote from: "My Gmail Inbox"Hi Christopher,

I don't typically email our ministers, but I just couldn't help it this time. When I processed your ordination I noticed your email address, and have been thinking about it for the past week. Turning over the possibilities of what exactly the "legendary sandwich" would be comprised of. I'm sure this is largely because I'm pregnant, and all I think about is food. I'm also a huge sandwich nut. Anyway, if you could share with me some info about this legendary sandwich I would be most grateful!

Thanks!
Jacki McMaster
Founder, FCA

Any suggestions on what to say? Traditionally, the LegendarySandwich has been an item of legend; if eaten, one would gain superpowers for twenty-four hours, until it respawned.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages1.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20090611210202%2Fcastlecrashers%2Fimages%2Fd%2Fdc%2FSandwich_effect.png&hash=e5076dc7d4ed5f5481fc5f6ec69cb87d7ced934e)

Everything you've ever wanted.
Things you didn't know you wanted.
Shame it's a mere sandwich though.

She's pregnant?  Tell her it's pastrami and fudge on black rye, with clover sprouts, mustard, and pomegranate seed.