Happy Atheist Forum

Let me start by disclaiming I am not familiar with everything Maher has said on 'Western Medicine'. Some of it may be crazy. But in the case of the H1N1 vaccine, he never said it didn't work or that nobody should get it (he actually said some people are foolish for not getting it). His main point seemed to be that there are risks involved. That's hard deny when stuff like this (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1206807/Swine-flu-jab-link-killer-nerve-disease-Leaked-letter-reveals-concern-neurologists-25-deaths-America.html) happens:

QuoteMore people died from the vaccination than from swine flu.
500 cases of GBS were detected.
 The vaccine may have increased the risk of contracting GBS by eight times.
The vaccine was withdrawn after just ten weeks when the link with GBS became clear.
The US Government was forced to pay out millions of dollars to those affected.

He also notes that he doesn't get sick often because of his healthy lifestyle (not that that pertains to the flu). I think it's obvious science would take his side there that living a particular lifestyle is probably the best way prevent health problems. So what's all this complaining about how anti-science Maher is when it comes to medicine?

Heheh, well I should make a disclaimer as well; I'm not a particular fan of Maher.  I find his smug, smirking snarkiness to be annoying, to put it mildly.  He does occasionally have a decent point to make, but his delivery often spoils it.  Just one person's opinion.

As for his stance on medical matters, I think that anyone who would listen to him for guidance about such things is foolish.  There are questions about mercury content of some vaccinations, for instance, but whether that should be used as a reason to avoid them is not clear.  For anyone who is interested in the subject, I'll post a couple of articles about Maher and his opinions regarding medicine from the Science-Based Medicine blog (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/):

“Oh, come on, Superman!”: Bill Maher versus “Western medicine” (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1251)

Bill Maher endorses cancer quackery (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1868)

Of all the political satirists on the air today, I would rank Maher among the top 3 most sane and rational.  The bottom line is, he's a comedian who has a platform to express his opinions, and that's all.  Why should it matter what he thinks of western medicine?

Maher's argument is that there needs to be a debate, which is highly illogical and dangerous. Science is not a debate where the most compelling argument wins. Science is about compiling mountains of evidence and experimentation and coming to a conclusion which is independently verifiable and predictive.

You know who wants a "debate" about science? Creationists.

I disagree with Maher's argument for reasons partly personal, partly objective... OR so I like to think, at least.

For the medicine to evolve, someone has to take risks sooner or later. Maybe a bunch of people even have to die during drug trials. Maybe one day I will be one of that bunch... So what? I am alive today, and modern medicine gives me a fair chance of staying alive tomorrow.

I think people are taking what Bill Maher has said out of context, as pointed out in the OP, Maher has never said vaccines are bad but he feels they should be examined/debated, whatever. What people also have to realize Bill is quite rational and what he means by debate is not a bunch of creationist semantics and intellectual gymnastics, when he says debate I imagine he means between scientists, he strongly supports science and had Carl Sagan's wife on his show a few weeks ago who pulled a +1 for science on the panel. I doubt Maher means a debate between politicians, it wouldn't make sense considering how he regularly praises the awesomeness of science. The last time I saw him talk about it he was trying hard to make that distinction and has called the anti-vaccine craze stupid and has ranted on it in new rules, he isn't anti vaccine, just thinks that scientist should take a look at and possibly improve on them.

Quote from: Ultima22689...Maher has never said vaccines are bad...

I refer to one of the articles (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1251) I posted earlier:

QuoteMAHER: I’m not into western medicine. That to me is a complete scare tactic. It just shows you, you can…

KING: You mean you don't get a â€" you don't get a flu shot?

MAHER: A flu shot is the worst thing you can do.

I think that Maher's stance on vaccines is anything but rational.  He's quite willing to spout blatant falsehoods in an attempt to back up his position.  From the same article:

Quote...Maher also parrotted the claim that it was better sanitation, not the polio vaccine, that eliminated polio. This is simply not true (http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu01.html). Better sanitation certainly helps decrease the incidence of such diseases, but sanitation was quite good by the 1950s in the United States, just before the polio vaccine was developed; yet polio outbreaks were still fairly common and still quite feared. (People over a certain age will remember polio scares that occurred throughout this country that would shut down public swimming pools and baths before the polio vaccine was developed.) In actuality, better sanitation may have made people more susceptible to severe complications from polio (as cleverly and simply explained in this neat little cartoon (http://www.scq.ubc.ca/polio-a-virus-struggle/)), because sanitation made sure that most people were no longer routinely exposed to the virus as children. Also going against Maher’s assertion is the observation that when polio vaccination rates fall, polio returns (http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/05/polio-returns-thanks-to-anti.html). It’s the same with other infectious diseases, like pertussis (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=516). Unless the disease has been completely eradicated, like smallpox (and thanks to vaccines), whenever vaccination rates fall, the disease will come back.

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "Ultima22689"...Maher has never said vaccines are bad...

I refer to one of the articles (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1251) I posted earlier:

QuoteMAHER: I’m not into western medicine. That to me is a complete scare tactic. It just shows you, you can…

KING: You mean you don’t get a â€" you don’t get a flu shot?

MAHER: A flu shot is the worst thing you can do.

I think that Maher's stance on vaccines is anything but rational.  He's quite willing to spout blatant falsehoods in an attempt to back up his position.  From the same article:

Quote...Maher also parrotted the claim that it was better sanitation, not the polio vaccine, that eliminated polio. This is simply not true (http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu01.html). Better sanitation certainly helps decrease the incidence of such diseases, but sanitation was quite good by the 1950s in the United States, just before the polio vaccine was developed; yet polio outbreaks were still fairly common and still quite feared. (People over a certain age will remember polio scares that occurred throughout this country that would shut down public swimming pools and baths before the polio vaccine was developed.) In actuality, better sanitation may have made people more susceptible to severe complications from polio (as cleverly and simply explained in this neat little cartoon (http://www.scq.ubc.ca/polio-a-virus-struggle/)), because sanitation made sure that most people were no longer routinely exposed to the virus as children. Also going against Maher’s assertion is the observation that when polio vaccination rates fall, polio returns (http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/05/polio-returns-thanks-to-anti.html). It’s the same with other infectious diseases, like pertussis (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=516). Unless the disease has been completely eradicated, like smallpox (and thanks to vaccines), whenever vaccination rates fall, the disease will come back.

My wife got a flu shot, and had to take a full week off of work she got so sick.  It started literally 6 hours after her shot.  My mom had the same thing happen to her.  
I haven't gotten a flu shot, and I'm fine.
I am not saying that I'm against vaccines...I think it's important that babies get them.

Quote from: "Asmodean"I disagree with Maher's argument for reasons partly personal, partly objective... OR so I like to think, at least.

For the medicine to evolve, someone has to take risks sooner or later. Maybe a bunch of people even have to die during drug trials. Maybe one day I will be one of that bunch... So what? I am alive today, and modern medicine gives me a fair chance of staying alive tomorrow.

Sacrifices are one thing if it's lab rats. Numbers are a lot different when it's your own life. Personally, I'm not willing to roll the dice when it's not necessary. If I don't have the virus I'm not about to take the chance of dying from something that's suppose to protect me.

Quote from: "Recusant"I refer to one of the articles (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=1251) I posted earlier:

QuoteMAHER: I’m not into western medicine. That to me is a complete scare tactic. It just shows you, you can…

KING: You mean you don’t get a â€" you don’t get a flu shot?

MAHER: A flu shot is the worst thing you can do.

In this article Bill wrote (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/vaccination-a-conversatio_b_358578.html) he says,

QuoteVaccination is a nuanced subject, and I've never said all vaccines in all situations are bad.

I also like this section from it:

QuoteSomeone who speaks eloquently about this is Barbara Loe Fisher, founder of the National Vaccine Information Center. I find her extremely credible, as I do Dr. Russell Blaylock, Dr. Jay Gordon and many others, but I shouldn't have even mentioned them because I don't want to be "the Vaccine Guy"!! Look it up yourself, and stop asking me about it -- I'm already the Religion Guy, and that's enough work!

Anyway, Ms. Fisher is someone who says she is not "anti-vaccine," but just has a lot of questions about the long term effect of using a lot of vaccines. After devoting her life to studying this, she says that the influenza vaccine studies that have been done "are not persuasive in proving that a seasonal flu shot provides immunity." She also points out "that what we need, but do not yet have, are studies of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children."

It seems he simply has a different opinion about whether the risks always outweigh the benefits, which isn't something Shermer discussed much in his open letter to Maher.

I watch Bill Maher on a regular basis, and like much of his show.

However, he does get a bit rabid at times, and medication/vaccines are often the target.

I've heard him equate all medicines to poison (on several occasions).

Well, I guess water is a poison if taken in sufficient quantity.

As for "what we need, but do not yet have, are studies of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children."...
Man, talk about experimenting on a population.  I'd rather go with the evidence from previous unvaccinated societies.

I get a Flu shot (almost) every year.  Mild symptoms for a day or two, then I'm good.

Anecdotal evidence is just not reliable - either for or against vaccines.

2 cents,
JoeActor

I highly recommend 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre, he writes about why evidence based medicine is under threat from people like Maher and others who do not understand how vaccines work.

Vaccines have saved literally millions of people since they first were developed. No one suffers from Polio anymore thanks to vaccines. Sure there will be a side effect every once in a while but it really pisses me off when people dismiss them out of hand just because they don't bother to look at the evidence...

Latest on the issue of vaccines and their relation to autism:

QuoteFrom CNN "Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds" (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/index.html?hpt=T1):

An investigation published by the British medical journal BMJ concludes the study's author, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, misrepresented or altered the medical histories of all 12 of the patients whose cases formed the basis of the 1998 study -- and that there was "no doubt" Wakefield was responsible.
"It's one thing to have a bad study, a study full of error, and for the authors then to admit that they made errors," Fiona Godlee, BMJ's editor-in-chief, told CNN. "But in this case, we have a very different picture of what seems to be a deliberate attempt to create an impression that there was a link by falsifying the data."

EDIT:  To clarify; Wakefield is the person who is largely responsible for the latest revival of the anti-vaccination flapdoodle  (guess who were among the first to rail against vaccines a couple of centuries or so ago?  Yes, church leaders) which has been taken up as a sort of cause by such celebrities as Maher and Jim Carrey (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=139), to mention two.  For those who may not know much about it, one place to start is the Wikipedia article on the MMR vaccine controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy).

I'm glad the fraud study is making the national news...so many parents are avoiding important vaccinations for their children due to unnecessary fears.  If that trend keeps up and gets larger the herd immunity will be weakened and diseases we thought were stamped out could start to return.

Western medicine is the third leading cause of death in America, so Maher's right to question it. It's very good at a few things, such as trauma care, diagnostics, and certain infectious diseases. It's pretty bad at others, notably degenerative diseases.

Quote from: "Voter"Western medicine is the third leading cause of death in America...

Would you mind providing a source for this authoritative statement?

Quote from: "Voter"It's very good at a few things, such as trauma care, diagnostics, and certain infectious diseases. It's pretty bad at others, notably degenerative diseases.

Do you have a suggestion where one might turn rather than modern science-based medicine when dealing with a degenerative disease?

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "Voter"Western medicine is the third leading cause of death in America...

Would you mind providing a source for this authoritative statement?

Quote from: "Voter"It's very good at a few things, such as trauma care, diagnostics, and certain infectious diseases. It's pretty bad at others, notably degenerative diseases.

Do you have a suggestion where one might turn rather than modern science-based medicine when dealing with a degenerative disease?

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.picshag.com%2Fpics%2F112010%2Fscience-vs-religion.jpg&hash=875b576729c60e6ce8931d74457c0fe319e9f2a2)

opppps, double posty............

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "Voter"Western medicine is the third leading cause of death in America...

Would you mind providing a source for this authoritative statement?

I think he's looking at a site like this:
http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm (http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm)


Though if you look elsewhere, 3rd is varied from stroke and respiratory infections/disease:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm)
http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html (http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ca ... th_by_rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate)
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/09 ... e-20101209 (http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/09/news/la-heb-stroke-20101209)

Edit to fix quote thingy....

Quote from: "KDbeads"

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "Voter"Western medicine is the third leading cause of death in America...

Would you mind providing a source for this authoritative statement?

I think he's looking at a site like this:
http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm (http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm)

Thank you for providing a reference. However, that site is talking about the health care system in America, which is not synonymous with "Western medicine."

Quote from: "Recusant"Latest on the issue of vaccines and their relation to autism:
 

QuoteFrom CNN "Retracted autism study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds" (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/05/autism.vaccines/index.html?hpt=T1):

An investigation published by the British medical journal BMJ concludes the study's author, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, misrepresented or altered the medical histories of all 12 of the patients whose cases formed the basis of the 1998 study -- and that there was "no doubt" Wakefield was responsible.
"It's one thing to have a bad study, a study full of error, and for the authors then to admit that they made errors," Fiona Godlee, BMJ's editor-in-chief, told CNN. "But in this case, we have a very different picture of what seems to be a deliberate attempt to create an impression that there was a link by falsifying the data."

EDIT:  To clarify; Wakefield is the person who is largely responsible for the latest revival of the anti-vaccination flapdoodle  (guess who were among the first to rail against vaccines a couple of centuries or so ago?  Yes, church leaders) which has been taken up as a sort of cause by such celebrities as Maher and Jim Carrey (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=139), to mention two.  For those who may not know much about it, one place to start is the Wikipedia article on the MMR vaccine controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy).

Was Bill one of those who thought vaccines could cause Autism? I don't recall him specifically saying that but, yikes! if he did.

Quote from: "KDbeads"

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "Voter"Western medicine is the third leading cause of death in America...

Would you mind providing a source for this authoritative statement?

I think he's looking at a site like this:
http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm (http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm)

Quote from: "Recusant"Thank you for providing a reference. However, that site is talking about the health care system in America, which is not synonymous with "Western medicine."

It's sites like this that get people all upset and the like.  For many, insert my mom here as your average FoxNews watching American, Western Medicine and American Health Care Systems are one and the same.  They generally don't differentiate or care to or even care to examine the 'facts' thrown at them.  

Quote from: "Sophus"Was Bill one of those who thought vaccines could cause Autism? I don't recall him specifically saying that but, yikes! if he did.

No, I don't think that Maher has actually publicly taken that position, though he does support Barbara Loe Fisher (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/vaccination-a-conversatio_b_358578.html), whose National Vaccine Information Center seems to be pushing the idea that vaccines are related to autism (http://www.nvic.org/Vaccines-and-Diseases/Autism.aspx). In the same article by Maher linked above, he also mentions Dr. Russel Blaylock, (a neurosurgeon) who has also posited a connection between vaccines and autism (http://www.rense.com/general67/vacc.htm). And Dr. Jay Gordon (a pediatrician), who while presenting some reasonable questions about vaccinations, also hints at a possible relation between vaccination and autism (http://drjaygordon.com/vaccinations/la-times-response.html).

Perhaps I should have started a separate thread for this topic, but to me it seemed relevant to this issue.  My apologies for incorrectly implying a direct link between Bill Maher and the "vaccines cause autism" crowd.

Quote from: "Recusant"Thank you for providing a reference. However, that site is talking about the health care system in America, which is not synonymous with "Western medicine."

Er, OK - The mainstream healthcare system is the third leading cause of death in America, so Maher's correct to question it. The Starfield study is the one I'm referring to. It appeared in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Here's a link to the article (http://www.jhsph.edu/bin/s/k/2000_JAMA_Starfield.pdf). The relevant part starts near the end of page 1.

Quote from: "Voter"Western medicine is the third leading cause of death in America, so Maher's right to question it. It's very good at a few things, such as trauma care, diagnostics, and certain infectious diseases. It's pretty bad at others, notably degenerative diseases.

Just because someone dies while under medical care doesn't mean medicine caused it.  Third leading cause is actually stroke http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm)

Quote from: "Sophus"Was Bill one of those who thought vaccines could cause Autism? I don't recall him specifically saying that but, yikes! if he did.

I don't recall but his views on medicine are not one of his rational strong points....I was offended (and so were others) that he was offered a position as adviser to the REASON project after having made such stupid comments (and is why I don't promote the REASON project..it's just a publicity stunt).

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "Sophus"Was Bill one of those who thought vaccines could cause Autism? I don't recall him specifically saying that but, yikes! if he did.

I don't recall but his views on medicine are not one of his rational strong points....I was offended (and so were others) that he was offered a position as adviser to the REASON project after having made such stupid comments (and is why I don't promote the REASON project..it's just a publicity stunt).

Whenever he talks about it he seems rather vague about what his point is. Then again I'm not a frequent viewer, but somehow I get the vibe Bill is implying that our Westerner lifestyle is such that we don't feel that we need to be preventative about health issues and so we think medicine can do all the magic. Don't let me put words in his mouth, but like I said, he always seems vague.

Quote from: "Voter"The mainstream healthcare system is the third leading cause of death in America, so Maher's correct to question it.

Did you note that more than half of those reported deaths were due to error or poor procedure (nosocomial infections)?  The fact that humans make mistakes, or don't always do the right thing does not mean that the paradigm which informs their work is at fault.  If you actually read the article, it's clear that it's an indictment of the health care system in the United States, not "western medicine."  

However, if next time you or or somebody you love is ill or injured, feel free to consult a naturopath, a faith healer, a homeopath or any other of the quacks and frauds which make their living off of the gullible and desperate.

Science based medicine has been responsible for saving and improving literally millions of lives since it began to make real progress in the late 19th century.  That there are problems with the way in which it's administered, and that big pharma and the insurance companies have corrupted certain elements, is undeniable.  Even so, science based medicine itself is far superior to anything else which is available, whether Maher or you want to acknowledge it or not.

Quote from: "Whitney"Just because someone dies while under medical care doesn't mean medicine caused it.

Of course not, else medicine would be the number one cause of death. Most people with cancer and heart disease do come under medical care before they go. This study is speaking of specific causes.

QuoteThird leading cause is actually stroke http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm)

Third leading is mainstream medicine. They just don't like to point that out.

Quote from: "Recusant"Did you note that more than half of those reported deaths were due to error or poor procedure (nosocomial infections)?  The fact that humans make mistakes, or don't always do the right thing does not mean that the paradigm which informs their work is at fault.

Did you note that nearly half are due to non-error drug effects? Only considering that, it moves medicine down to about 6th on the list.

QuoteHowever, if next time you or or somebody you love is ill or injured, feel free to consult a naturopath, a faith healer, a homeopath or any other of the quacks and frauds which make their living off of the gullible and desperate.

Actually I do my own research first, then decide what, if any, specialist to see.

QuoteScience based medicine has been responsible for saving and improving literally millions of lives since it began to make real progress in the late 19th century.  That there are problems with the way in which it's administered, and that big pharma and the insurance companies have corrupted certain elements, is undeniable.  Even so, science based medicine itself is far superior to anything else which is available, whether Maher or you want to acknowledge it or not.

Depends on the area. For trauma and certain infections, you're right. For degenerative diseases, I disagree.

Quote from: "Voter"Depends on the area. For trauma and certain infections, you're right. For degenerative diseases, I disagree.

Voter, that's the second time you've presented that little nugget in this thread.  I'll ask you a second time, using precisely the same wording you ignored previously: Do you have a suggestion where one might turn rather than modern science-based medicine when dealing with a degenerative disease?

Quote from: "Voter"Third leading is mainstream medicine. They just don't like to point that out.

I don't' think you got the point of recusant's post....that far more died when we didn't have modern medicine.

And who is THEY?

Quote from: "Recusant"

Quote from: "Voter"Depends on the area. For trauma and certain infections, you're right. For degenerative diseases, I disagree.

Voter, that's the second time you've presented that little nugget in this thread.  I'll ask you a second time, using precisely the same wording you ignored previously: Do you have a suggestion where one might turn rather than modern science-based medicine when dealing with a degenerative disease?

I would suggest nutritional and cleansing approaches, such as juice fasting. Actually I'd suggest employing these before the problems arise in the first place. And for back problems I'd suggest going to a chiropractor.

Here are some statistics on complementary and alternative medicine use (http://nccam.nih.gov/news/camstats/2007/camsurvey_fs1.htm) in the U.S.
How Many People Use CAM
In the United States, approximately 38 percent of adults (about 4 in 10) and approximately 12 percent of children (about 1 in 9) are using some form of CAM, shown in figure 1.

Who Uses CAM Most
People of all backgrounds use CAM. However, CAM use among adults is greater among women and those with higher levels of education and higher incomes. Figure 2 shows the percentage of people using CAM by age. Figure 3 shows CAM use by race/ethnicity.

CAM Therapies Used the Most
Nonvitamin, nonmineral natural products are the most commonly used CAM therapy among adults. Use has increased for several therapies, including deep breathing exercises, meditationA conscious mental process using certain techniquesâ€"such as focusing attention or maintaining a specific postureâ€"to suspend the stream of thoughts and relax the body and mind., massagePressing, rubbing, and moving muscles and other soft tissues of the body, primarily by using the hands and fingers. The aim is to increase the flow of blood and oxygen to the massaged area. therapy, and yoga. Figure 4 shows the percentage of people using the most common CAM therapies and therapies with significant increases between 2002 and 2007.

Quote from: "Voter"Here are some statistics on complementary and alternative medicine use (http://nccam.nih.gov/news/camstats/2007/camsurvey_fs1.htm) in the U.S.

I don't get it, are you willingly trying to use an appeal to majority as a point?

Quote from: "Whitney"I don't' think you got the point of recusant's post....

I wasn't replying to recusant's post, I was replying to yours.

QuoteAnd who is THEY?

Doctors in general. Specifically the CDC. That's who you linked to.

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Voter"Here are some statistics on complementary and alternative medicine use (http://nccam.nih.gov/news/camstats/2007/camsurvey_fs1.htm) in the U.S.

I don't get it, are you willingly trying to use an appeal to majority as a point?

Of course not, as 38% isn't a majority.

Quote from: "Voter"

Quote from: "Davin"

Quote from: "Voter"Here are some statistics on complementary and alternative medicine use (http://nccam.nih.gov/news/camstats/2007/camsurvey_fs1.htm) in the U.S.

I don't get it, are you willingly trying to use an appeal to majority as a point?

Of course not, as 38% isn't a majority.

Then what is your point?

I haven't used any kind of medical help in that regard for I think the last 18 years. I haven't been sick in 4 years, and I think the last time I had the flu was about 9 years ago.

And I find it funny that the news media runs rampant with fear mongering on H1N1 when it didn't seem to kill anymore people a year on average than other flu strains (though I could be wrong here).

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/ (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/)

Quote from: "Davin"Then what is your point?

None. Just giving some additional info.

Quote from: "Voter"And for back problems I'd suggest going to a chiropractor.

Yes, because the first thing I want to do when my back is hurting is go to someone who will make it worse.

Quote from: "TheJackel"And I find it funny that the news media runs rampant with fear mongering on H1N1 when it didn't seem to kill anymore people a year on average than other flu strains (though I could be wrong here).

Well, the media is stupid in regard to how they cover pretty much every topic, especially diseases they can use to scare viewers so they'll watch/listen more.

H1N1 was only on the CDC radar because it wasn't detected early enough and it was virulent (aggressive) than average flu strains.  So, it was important that they got a vaccine ready to protect the young and elderly.  They had that vaccine ready pretty quickly which may be why there was no noticeable difference in communities (though there might be if someone were to find national statistics...considering that those who die, very old people and babies, tend not to be the ones we interact with on a daily basis).

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "TheJackel"And I find it funny that the news media runs rampant with fear mongering on H1N1 when it didn't seem to kill anymore people a year on average than other flu strains (though I could be wrong here). :pop:

Thank you for your reply, Voter.

Quote from: "Voter"I would suggest nutritional and cleansing approaches, such as juice fasting. Actually I'd suggest employing these before the problems arise in the first place. And for back problems I'd suggest going to a chiropractor.

While I agree that good nutrition is important to health (you'll be hard put to find an MD who would disagree), I would appreciate some data which supports the idea that CAM is a valid approach to dealing with degenerative diseases.  According to the site you referenced, for many CAM therapies that data is lacking:

QuoteFrom The Use of Complementary and Alternative Medicine in the United States (http://nccam.nih.gov/news/camstats/2007/camsurvey_fs1.htm):

While scientific evidence exists regarding some CAM therapies, for most there are key questions that are yet to be answered through well-designed scientific studiesâ€"questions such as whether these therapies are safe and whether they work for the purposes for which they are used.

Specifically, I think it would be good to see data relating to the effectiveness of "nutritional and cleansing approache" in dealing with degenerative disease.  I'd also like to emphasise that modern medicine is actively researching a wide variety of techniques for dealing with diseases of all kinds, including degenerative diseases.  When a technique or therapy has been proven to be effective, it's incorporated into treatments.  So to point to such things as nutritional approaches as if they aren't being considered at all by science based medicine is not accurate.

Quote from: "Voter"Nonvitamin, nonmineral natural products are the most commonly used CAM therapy among adults. Use has increased for several therapies, including deep breathing exercises, meditationA conscious mental process using certain techniquesâ€"such as focusing attention or maintaining a specific postureâ€"to suspend the stream of thoughts and relax the body and mind., massagePressing, rubbing, and moving muscles and other soft tissues of the body, primarily by using the hands and fingers. The aim is to increase the flow of blood and oxygen to the massaged area. therapy, and yoga. Figure 4 shows the percentage of people using the most common CAM therapies and therapies with significant increases between 2002 and 2007.

These therapies all sound more or less reasonable, and physical therapy is a recognised treatment for a wide variety of disabilities and illnesses which is already in use by science based medicine.  However, the list of therapies which were included the National Health Interview Survey (NHIS) includes a lot of what I would describe as quackery:

QuoteCAM Therapies Included in the 2007 NHIS

Acupuncture
Ayurveda
Biofeedback
Chelation therapy
Chiropractic or osteopathic manipulation
Deep breathing exercises
Diet-based therapies
Atkins diet
Macrobiotic diet
Ornish diet
Pritikin diet
South Beach diet
Vegetarian diet
Zone diet
Energy healing therapy/Reiki
Guided imagery
Homeopathic treatment
Hypnosis
Massage
Meditation
Movement therapies
Alexander technique
Feldenkrais
Pilates
Trager psychophysical integration
Natural products (nonvitamin and nonmineral, such as herbs and other products from plants, enzymes, etc.)
Naturopathy
Progressive relaxation
Qi gong
Tai chi
Traditional healers
Botanica
Curandero
Espiritista
Hierbero or Yerbera
Native American healer/Medicine man
Shaman
Sobador
Yoga

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As for H1N1, just a little anecdotal evidence:  My healthy, active 5 year old niece nearly died from it.  The only things which saved her were an emergency helicopter life flight and some very good care by an outstanding children's hospital.
  One of the biggest pandemics in modern times was the "Spanish" flu which struck in 1918 and lasted until 1920, in which somewhere between 50 and 100 million people died. It's good to have a healthy respect for the potential danger which flu viruses can represent.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A bit more back on topic.  Here's a video I came across which deals with germ theory denialism that includes a take on Bill Maher's public statements on the issue.  The video maker's evidence against Maher is only circumstantial, but I think his wider point regarding the lack of evidence which supports those who reject science based medicine, and how their tactics mirror those used by creationists is legitimate.

 [youtube:4dhje3rv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyodvwxe4mE[/youtube:4dhje3rv]

Quote from: "Recusant"Thank you for your reply, Voter.

Quote from: "Voter"I would suggest nutritional and cleansing approaches, such as juice fasting. Actually I'd suggest employing these before the problems arise in the first place. And for back problems I'd suggest going to a chiropractor.

While I agree that good nutrition is important to health (you'll be hard put to find an MD who would disagree), I would appreciate some data which supports the idea that CAM is a valid approach to dealing with degenerative diseases.  According to the site you referenced, for many CAM therapies that data is lacking:

QuoteFrom The Use of Complementary and Alternative Medicine in the United States (http://nccam.nih.gov/news/camstats/2007/camsurvey_fs1.htm):

While scientific evidence exists regarding some CAM therapies, for most there are key questions that are yet to be answered through well-designed scientific studiesâ€"questions such as whether these therapies are safe and whether they work for the purposes for which they are used.

Specifically, I think it would be good to see data relating to the effectiveness of "nutritional and cleansing approache" in dealing with degenerative disease.

The evidence is necessarily limited to the logical and anecdotal due to the high cost of performing medical studies for approaches that can't be patented. I'm currently working with a company that has developed one drug for one disease. To get through Phase II testing they burned through $40 million of private equity. Phase III will cost over $100 million. Big pharma stepped in at that point. Obviously no one will put that into testing juice fasting, as even if wildly successful, there won't be exclusive rights. It's been fascinating working on this.

QuoteI'd also like to emphasise that modern medicine is actively researching a wide variety of techniques for dealing with diseases of all kinds, including degenerative diseases.  When a technique or therapy has been proven to be effective, it's incorporated into treatments.  So to point to such things as nutritional approaches as if they aren't being considered at all by science based medicine is not accurate.

OK, then you show me the data in which these approaches were shown to be ineffective. I doubt there's many out there, and the few you do hear about are rigged in big pharma's favor. For instance, you'll sometimes hear that a study showed a certain vitamin to not be effective in a certain treatment. However, they use the viatmins in insignificant doses or inappropriate stages of the disease.

Quote from: "Voter"These therapies all sound more or less reasonable, and physical therapy is a recognised treatment for a wide variety of disabilities and illnesses which is already in use by science based medicine. However, the list of therapies which were included the National Health Interview Survey (NHIS) includes a lot of what I would describe as quackery:

QuoteCAM Therapies Included in the 2007 NHIS

Acupuncture
Ayurveda
Biofeedback
Chelation therapy
Chiropractic or osteopathic manipulation
Deep breathing exercises
Diet-based therapies
Atkins diet
Macrobiotic diet
Ornish diet
Pritikin diet
South Beach diet
Vegetarian diet
Zone diet
Energy healing therapy/Reiki
Guided imagery
Homeopathic treatment
Hypnosis
Massage
Meditation
Movement therapies
Alexander technique
Feldenkrais
Pilates
Trager psychophysical integration
Natural products (nonvitamin and nonmineral, such as herbs and other products from plants, enzymes, etc.)
Naturopathy
Progressive relaxation
Qi gong
Tai chi
Traditional healers
Botanica
Curandero
Espiritista
Hierbero or Yerbera
Native American healer/Medicine man
Shaman
Sobador
Yoga

I think there's a lot of good stuff in that list, and have used 6 or more myself. I used Pilates and a special support garment to fix a mild inguinal hernia. Beats surgery in my books.

Quote from: "Recusant"[youtube:214oy21a]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyodvwxe4mE[/youtube:214oy21a]

I wonder if his views have matured since Politically Incorrect. During one of his recent Leno visits (I know - it's a terrible show, I only watch it for Maher) Maher criticized religion for being a bunch of "nonsense tales written before anyone knew what a germ was, or where the sun went at night". It's hard to imagine him supporting Health Care Reform so fervently while simultaneously cursing Western Medicine. I dunno, he's a bit a mystery here. Maybe the fact that we can't decipher what he's saying does mean he's anti-science when it comes to medicine.

Quote from: "Sophus"I wonder if his views have matured since Politically Incorrect. During one of his recent Leno visits (I know - it's a terrible show, I only watch it for Maher) Maher criticized religion for being a bunch of "nonsense tales written before anyone knew what a germ was, or where the sun went at night". It's hard to imagine him supporting Health Care Reform so fervently while simultaneously cursing Western Medicine. I dunno, he's a bit a mystery here. Maybe the fact that we can't decipher what he's saying does mean he's anti-science when it comes to medicine.

His social circle includes connections to Harris and Dawkins; he might have been set straight off camera

HuffPo reporting that kids are having seizures after vaccination (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/20/vaccine-seizures-feds-checking-post-flu-shot_n_811756.html). Guess this means we can expect Bill to say something about this on his next show.

QuoteGovernment officials are investigating an apparent increase in fever-related seizures in young children after they got a flu shot.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration on Thursday said there have been 36 confirmed reports of seizures this flu season in children ages 6 months through 2 years. The seizures occurred within one day after they were vaccinated with Fluzone, the only flu shot recommended in the United States for infants and very young children. Ten of the children were hospitalized, but all recovered.

The FDA said it is investigating to see if there is any connection between the vaccine and the seizures, or if something else caused the convulsions

.