Happy Atheist Forum

Okay, I'm a teenage atheist. I'm black, female and I live in a very religious city. I know I'm an uncommon breed of atheist, seeing as I am African American who was originally a Christian... but whatever. I'm unique among my peers and the adults who I speak to about this subject. Anyway, I don't understand something, I'm actually very confused. There are so many kinds of religions in the world, so many kinds of Gods and deities. And then there are the people who follow them, who are passionate about this religion and about their God. When I was a little girl, I use to think there was only one religion. I followed it because I was afraid of one thing that the preachers kept warning us little kids about.

 Hell.

  So, here I am, afraid and going to my knees to pray and bowing my head before this man who talks about religion. I continued to be a Christian (reluctantly, of course. I was never really into it, I found it ridiculous at times) until someone told me about atheism. It was a close friend, and I found myself thinking more and more about the topic. It was a bit much for me since I was in Middle School. Anyway, I finally realized how ridiculous religion was, that I didn't need it to function properly in life, and all the words those preachers and my mother and father uttered meant... nothing. I looked into it, and found out how ridiculous it was, it was like I was enlightened to the whole thing.

  I recently had a class with my friend who keeps trying to convert me. And because I'm passive, I'm sometimes swayed by his words. But I still find myself confused about the whole damn thing! So I asked questions.

  "How about other religions? They have different views, Christianity isn't the only-" I said

  "As long as you follow something, it's alright. But I would prefer you to believe in Jesus and God." He replied, cutting me off purposefully.

  Then I continued to talk about it, and being the idiot I was I kind of started to wonder if I'm making a mistake. And then, a thought crossed my mind. I thought about hell, the lake of fire, and the devil, the things people warn us about if we do not follow God. I now know, if I ever decided to follow God it would be out of fear, not love. It would be like doing a king's bidding because your afraid you'll be executed or exiled, or... or imprisoned, or something. If he were to appear before me, I wouldn't say I loved him, I wouldn't worship him, I would be afraid, terrified! I don't understand why I have to follow a religion. Everybody keeps berating me, and it's stressing me out beyond belief!

  Friend; "Oh my gosh, your going to hell..."

  Teacher; "Well, you should really think about worshiping God, he is your creator after all."

  Student; "Why you got to be different? Evolution ain't real!"

  Mother; "Don't you dare tell anybody about this, it's embarrassing. Don't you realize that your giving yourself a bad name!"

  Bus Driver; "Your a what?"

  Ignorant, impudent, narrow-minded... all of them. How am I suppose to know what's right and what's wrong to follow? Here is my friend telling me that if you follow this religion that your going to hell. Here is this other person going on about how I should be a Christian and bow down to the lord. I'm one teenage atheist, in a school filled with hundreds of Christians. And all I can say, I'm young, I'm stupid (aren't we all?) , and I'm confused about the whole thing.

  If there really was a God, why would he put so many religions on the earth. There are so many! How the hell should we know what to follow. If I was a Christian, some other religion would be saying I was going to hell. And so on and so forth. It's all such nonsense, really. It's like a never ending cycle! I just don't understand, how can people be so ignorant toward other religions. How do they know their's is absolutely right? It's like they can only focus on their's and their's alone. Can somebody please explain it to me.

I need an adult! I need an adult!

Hello and a belated welcome from me to the forum, Cross.

Situations such as yours are really tough, although, unfortunately, not that uncommon. However, that means that there are plenty others who have gone through this and can help. There's an article here about how to come out of the religious closet (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=69387#p69387).

It's been my experience that even though there are those who say "I would rather you believe in something, anything - just please don't be an atheist" they don't really mean that. There is usually just as much stereotyping and cynicism from one faith toward other faiths. For example, I really doubt that by feigning to have converted to Islam you will find your friends and family not wanting to convert you to Christianity any less.

The best thing to do may be to avoid talking about the subject of religion with your deeply religious friends if it is adding fire to your situation or making you uncomfortable. You're not likely to change their negative opinion of atheists if they can't carry a courteous conversation, so the next best thing would be to not to remind them to label you simply as an "atheist" by not bringing it up often. Instead of "atheist" you might choose a word with a different connotation, like "Skeptic" or "Freethinker". All in all, just try to be a peacemaker and hope they'll respect your wishes to keep the peace. Having been raised Christian myself, I went through some uncomfortable teenage years after I came out, and while I wouldn't advise remaining completely in the closet (as some here might) in retrospect I wish I had avoided a lot of discussion about religion at the time.

Best wishes and good luck!

You should follow what you believe and not what other people try to make you believe. Even after you read everything I have to say below, you need to decide what's best for you. It's your life, and it's your choices that should be respected by others around you. In fact, to ease your mind, many religious people don't even like organized religion, nor do many theist care about religion. And this is because you don't need one to believe in a GOD.. Basically religions are ideological constructs based around the concept of a higher power. It's basically man assuming the will of a deity. However, I am going to point you to a very important thread here. And this thread will certainly help you better understand how many religions function. They exhibit social dogmas designed to control you, and fear is generally on of those Dogmas. So here it is:

Religious Brainwashing: How it's done (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4629)

I use to be a Christian myself, and I use to do the very things your friends, family, or church might do to keep you in line with their religious ideological construct. And many of them honestly are so brainwashed that they don't even know that they are attempting to do it to you. So don't blame them because that's what they have been taught to believe in. Hence, they are so fearful themselves that they actually think they are trying to "save you". So keep that in mind.

So I recommend that you also read some books on the mechanics of brainwashing. And I recommend this because it will not only protect you from things like this, but other things like commercial scams, scam artists, salesmen trying to sell you junk ect. When you are done reading those books, sit back and observe and you will be amazed at what you see in regards to your problem.

And btw the Post above mine has a lot of good advice to consider when or if you do confront your family and friends Also not that it's ok to believe in a GOD without fearing the GOD. So, if that is your reason to going to Atheism, you might want to think about that, or think if Atheism is truly what you believe. So, I wish you lots of luck! And welcome to the forums.

 Cheers!

You've been clever enough to see nearly everyone around you is living a delusion.
You've been brave enough to ask people about it.
This is an admirable thing.

I thought what Sophus said made sense, you don't have to make your life to hard.

QuoteHaving been raised Christian myself, I went through some uncomfortable teenage years after I came out, and while I wouldn't advise remaining completely in the closet (as some here might) in retrospect I wish I had avoided a lot of discussion about religion at the time.

I suppose we all can be stupid some times, but organised stupidity is... stupid.

Good luck.

Hi Cross,

My own experience was very different; I live in the UK which is largely secular. When I told my Dad that I had become an atheist, his response was "about bloody time". However there are some aspects of my life that people around me find baffling (I don't watch TV, I don't use facebook twitter myspace etc..., I am politically very far out on the left) I have found that in these areas people (even those I consider friends) will often react with hostility.

As for your situation. All these people you talk to are acting with the best intentions. They believe that your lack of faith condemns you. Being your friends, family and teachers, their belief that you are condemned is upsetting to them. (There is probably also an element of ego there too, when you tell them you don't believe they probably internalise that as you telling them they are wrong; so they react in a self defensive or angry way.)

I know it is hard to do so, but try and understand that, in their own misguided way, these people are trying to help you. The fact they say those things shows how much they care. In this you are extraordinarily lucky. Try to remember that. In time they will come to accept you for who they are, and those who don't will be left behind. In the mean time keep being brave, the longer you do the easier it will get.

All the best, and good luck.

Thanks guys, it's nice to get some advise about this subject.

 

Quote from: "TheJackel"And btw the Post above mine has a lot of good advice to consider when or if you do confront your family and friends :eek:

 Kind of ironic... But I'll try to be more durable. I'm use to getting odd looks by now.  

Quote from: "Cross"If there really was a God, why would he put so many religions on the earth. There are so many! How the hell should we know what to follow. If I was a Christian, some other religion would be saying I was going to hell. And so on and so forth. It's all such nonsense, really. It's like a never ending cycle! I just don't understand, how can people be so ignorant toward other religions. How do they know their's is absolutely right? It's like they can only focus on their's and their's alone. Can somebody please explain it to me.

It's absolutely fear, but a healthy fear.  Similar to the kind of fear one might have for a parent.  Can we be 100% clear on God and His plan?  No.  Much like life as a child.  Many things are not understood, yet you trust your parent.  Will all your questions be answered?  Probably not.

The bottom line is simply that there's enough evidence to convince you there is no god and likewise there is enough evidence so that you can have the faith that there is a God.  It remains a choice and it is ultimately up to you in your heart and mind to make that decision.  Just don't let others make that choice for you.  Find it for yourself.  As a Christian myself, I hope you find what you need for faith in God.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Cross"If there really was a God, why would he put so many religions on the earth. There are so many! How the hell should we know what to follow. If I was a Christian, some other religion would be saying I was going to hell. And so on and so forth. It's all such nonsense, really. It's like a never ending cycle! I just don't understand, how can people be so ignorant toward other religions. How do they know their's is absolutely right? It's like they can only focus on their's and their's alone. Can somebody please explain it to me.

It's absolutely fear, but a healthy fear.  Similar to the kind of fear one might have for a parent.  Can we be 100% clear on God and His plan?  No.  Much like life as a child.  Many things are not understood, yet you trust your parent.  Will all your questions be answered?  Probably not.

The bottom line is simply that there's enough evidence to convince you there is no god and likewise there is enough evidence so that you can have the faith that there is a God.  It remains a choice and it is ultimately up to you in your heart and mind to make that decision.  Just don't let others make that choice for you.  Find it for yourself.  As a Christian myself, I hope you find what you need for faith in God.

As an atheist myself I hope you don't get sucked back under the comfort blanket that is institutionalist superstition aka religion, whichever particular flavour it may be. Superstition was a necessary evil in my opinion. Superstition has been and is still pretty much a universal human trait. Why? Because humans need answers and there are not always answers. Thus we have a situation where there is a gap in our understanding. Why does the Sun come up? Don't know! Panic! Insert solution, pre-science God Did It! Post science Newtonian orbital mechanics!

But why so many Gods? Well as God is a fiction it can be considered a unique fiction to each individual. So why not 7 billion Gods? Because people a social animals and like to belong to a group. So the tricksters of Judaism, Christianity and Islam make belonging to an in-group more acceptable than belonging to the out-group. How do they make being in the out-group the worst possible outcome? Well let me think. How about creating the worst possible fate! Yep, it's hell!

The creation of hell was a political expedient used by those who desired control over others. It does not exist and never has. How do I know? No consistent effective proof that it does. Lots of claims, no evidence. Religions, all of them, are bullshit peddled by the gullible, the mislead and the wilfully disingenuous.

But could God exist? Yes a God could exist. Why do I, an atheist, say this? Because I can't prove a negative. I can't prove that there is not an invisible pink unicorn nibbling your ear right now. But what evidence is there to support my assertion that there is an invisible pink unicorn nibbling your ear right now? None. So which is the more rational position to take; that there is or is not an invisible pink unicorn nibbling on your ear? You know the answer you're a bright kid.

But a God is not a Religion a religion is a construct of humanity and you are spot on with your observation that there are just too many for any one to be at all credible. If you go for authority, you have to be Jewish as they got there first and claim to be God's chosen people. If you want a friend then go for Jesus he seems a fairly approachable sort of guy, drinks wine, hangs out with ladies who may well not be perfect, bit of a rebel. If submission is what you want choose Islam and never bother to think again. Take your brain out and throw it away, being female you'll never need to use it again, find a bloke and start spiting out babies as that's all your good for, according to Islam.

Or alternatively simply stick it out for a few years until you can stand on your own two feet. This is the difficult option but it's the right option.

My three kids, al grown up now, had it relatively easy compared to you. Both I and my wife are atheists and we just let our kids find their own way. And what a surprise, they didn't get mugged by theists into believing ancient middle eastern mythology.

Good luck, be strong and keep in touch!

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Cross"If there really was a God, why would he put so many religions on the earth. There are so many! How the hell should we know what to follow. If I was a Christian, some other religion would be saying I was going to hell. And so on and so forth. It's all such nonsense, really. It's like a never ending cycle! I just don't understand, how can people be so ignorant toward other religions. How do they know their's is absolutely right? It's like they can only focus on their's and their's alone. Can somebody please explain it to me.

It's absolutely fear, but a healthy fear.  Similar to the kind of fear one might have for a parent.  Can we be 100% clear on God and His plan?  No.  Much like life as a child.  Many things are not understood, yet you trust your parent.  Will all your questions be answered?  Probably not.

The bottom line is simply that there's enough evidence to convince you there is no god and likewise there is enough evidence so that you can have the faith that there is a God.  It remains a choice and it is ultimately up to you in your heart and mind to make that decision.  Just don't let others make that choice for you.  Find it for yourself.  As a Christian myself, I hope you find what you need for faith in God.

You have got to be kidding me. That is a very poor attempt to rationalize the use of fear, if not deflect from it. The threat of burning in hell, death or any other similar kind of use of fear is manipulative and psychologically abusive  :shake: . In fact that has a lot to do with why her parents or friends might tell her that she would be damned. It's a programmed response and really has nothing to do with concern vs keeping their children in line with the religion.  If you seriously think that is some kind of "Healthy Fear" in a parenting sense, you has some serious issues to work on. Do us a favor, please don't try rationalizing brainwashing tools as if they are magically ok   . If you have to control using such tactics, you shouldn't be a parent. EVER!

Other than this, I think it's best that she makes her choices without subliminal manipulation. Yes her parents love her, but that is not an excuse to not think for herself. So I do hope she takes the path that suites her views, and beliefs as a free thinker. It's ok to be religious, a theist, a believer in a Deity, an atheist, or whatever.

So my only advice is for her to learn what kind of dogma she will face in life, or how brainwashing works so she can protect herself. I recommend this to everyone.

Quote from: "TheJackel"

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Cross"If there really was a God, why would he put so many religions on the earth. There are so many! How the hell should we know what to follow. If I was a Christian, some other religion would be saying I was going to hell. And so on and so forth. It's all such nonsense, really. It's like a never ending cycle! I just don't understand, how can people be so ignorant toward other religions. How do they know their's is absolutely right? It's like they can only focus on their's and their's alone. Can somebody please explain it to me.

It's absolutely fear, but a healthy fear.  Similar to the kind of fear one might have for a parent.  Can we be 100% clear on God and His plan?  No.  Much like life as a child.  Many things are not understood, yet you trust your parent.  Will all your questions be answered?  Probably not.

The bottom line is simply that there's enough evidence to convince you there is no god and likewise there is enough evidence so that you can have the faith that there is a God.  It remains a choice and it is ultimately up to you in your heart and mind to make that decision.  Just don't let others make that choice for you.  Find it for yourself.  As a Christian myself, I hope you find what you need for faith in God.

You have got to be kidding me. That is a very poor attempt to rationalize the use of fear, if not deflect from it. The threat of burning in hell, death or any other similar kind of use of fear is manipulative and psychologically abusive  :shake: . In fact that has a lot to do with why her parents or friends might tell her that she would be damned. It's a programmed response and really has nothing to do with concern vs keeping their children in line with the religion.  If you seriously think that is some kind of "Healthy Fear" in a parenting sense, you has some serious issues to work on. Do us a favor, please don't try rationalizing brainwashing tools as if they are magically ok   . If you have to control using such tactics, you shouldn't be a parent. EVER!

Other than this, I think it's best that she makes her choices without subliminal manipulation. Yes her parents love her, but that is not an excuse to not think for herself. So I do hope she takes the path that suites her views, and beliefs as a free thinker. It's ok to be religious, a theist, a believer in a Deity, an atheist, or whatever.

So my only advice is for her to learn what kind of dogma she will face in life, or how brainwashing works so she can protect herself. I recommend this to everyone.

Yes, I don't know if that comment qualifies as preaching but it did come across as bit of a low blow.

Quote from: "Sophus"Yes, I don't know if that comment qualifies as preaching but it did come across as bit of a low blow.

Sorry it wasn't meant as a blow of any sort.

Cross --

Hiyas.  I've found a pretty good way to deflect conversations away from becoming one-sided preaching sessions: "I respect your beliefs and would appreciate it if you'd respect my lack of belief."

And yes, you're right, most faith is based on fear.  No matter what anyone says (I'm looking at you, Animated Dirt), fear is not a healthy part of an adult-child relationship, and the moreso since as a parent, when my son misbehaves, I may punish him, but I don't throw him in the oven for all time.  Love doesn't behave that way.  Even Dirt's own Bible has some good words on it:

Quote from: "Paul, in 1 Cor"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Think for yourself, educate yourself, and reexamine your basic premises on a regular basis.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"And yes, you're right, most faith is based on fear.  No matter what anyone says (I'm looking at you, Animated Dirt), fear is not a healthy part of an adult-child relationship, and the moreso since as a parent, when my son misbehaves, I may punish him, but I don't throw him in the oven for all time.  Love doesn't behave that way.  Even Dirt's own Bible has some good words on it:

Quote from: "Paul, in 1 Cor"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

You're quite right, Thump (may I call you Thump?)  Lots and lots of Christians put belief in God out of fear.  However there are many if not also lots and lots that have faith in the understanding of, if the Bible account of God's salvation work is true,  what God has done FOR us.  Now, I realize it's a fable and all, I'm not intending on preaching to you so if you'd just take that as one basis of faith and not that all is based on fear.

Fear is healthy.  It certainly doesn't fit in a human parent/child relationship as in your context the parent is simply waiting to punish the child with or including fire and suffering.  (Again you will not agree, but the fire and suffering in the end is for those that have chosen not to be His children)  Without fear in this world, there would be more pain and more suffering.  Fear is that thing that keeps you from doing things that will or could hurt and/or kill you.  In that context, fear is healthy.

Again, I would agree with you that if a child continually fears their parent for the pain (one may assume abuse), then that fear is not a good thing for the relationship.

I am...

Quote...ready for a scourging

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"You're quite right, Thump (may I call you Thump?)  Lots and lots of Christians put belief in God out of fear.  However there are many if not also lots and lots that have faith in the understanding of, if the Bible account of God's salvation work is true,  what God has done FOR us.  Now, I realize it's a fable and all, I'm not intending on preaching to you so if you'd just take that as one basis of faith and not that all is based on fear.

I know that not all of it is, nor do all Christians worship out of fear.  But a large number, perhaps a majority, do.  I know my mom does, because she's said as much to me, explicitly.  The prevalence of variations on Pascal's Wager is also indicative of this.

QuoteFear is healthy.

When it causes one to be aware of avoidable harm, it can be.

QuoteIt certainly doesn't fit in a human parent/child relationship as in your context the parent is simply waiting to punish the child with or including fire and suffering.  (Again you will not agree, but the fire and suffering in the end is for those that have chosen not to be His children)

Well, I don't bake people who don't like me, either.  I ask myself why they don't like me.  If it's something I can change without violating basic principles, I try to change -- especially when it will result in an improvement of the general happiness.  Even If they still do not to like me, I don't go out of my way to torment them; I merely avoid them.

QuoteWithout fear in this world, there would be more pain and more suffering.  Fear is that thing that keeps you from doing things that will or could hurt and/or kill you.  In that context, fear is healthy.

But that is not the context we are using, so this analogy fails.

Quote...ready for a scourging

Nah, my scourge is in the shop being fitted with new barbs in the tails and a nice leather handle.

-Smiles- It's okay guys, I don't think AnimatedDirt meant any harm. He is just offering me some advise.

  And I know, fear is was causes others to convert themselves. And they do so because it's been taught to them since they were young, or they're just ignorant enough to believe this or that. I'm kind of sensitive, and not as intelligent as you all yet. I'm just easily intimidated by what some person say.

 

Quote(Again you will not agree, but the fire and suffering in the end is for those that have chosen not to be His children)

  That scares me. Not by what it is trying to say, but by how easily someone says it. I have never told anybody that they would go to hell, even when I was Christian. It hurts me when I hear someone put me down because I don't believe in the Christian God. I'm proud to be a atheist, because I'm sure I am one. I'm a person who relies heavily on scientific facts, and the bible seems like a fairy tale to me. Like some story fabricated by people to help explain how the world got here, and also how to control and manipulate people.

  I just don't know why other people don't take that to mind. Every time I try to explain it to them they just end it with this; your going to hell.

  I hate being sensitive, but I can't help but feel hurt that even my best friends would say that. I wish they would understand me. But I guess that's life, and I seriously need to toungh'n up.

  Anyway, I don't want to debate about this all my life, maybe on certain occasions if it is brought up, but that is it. I want to spend my life making my own path. I hate it when Christians say that are path is decided by their 'God' and that we are nothing but mere puppets, like sheep awaiting the shepherd. I am not a sheep to some invisible man floating in the sky. Or the unicorn currently nibbling my ear.... it kind of tickles. -giggles-

  And if we are the so-called 'children' of this God, why must we bow to him? You don't see me bowing to my parent.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"But that is not the context we are using, so this analogy fails.

I can appreciate this "other" point, however when I mention 'fear' in context of fearing God, it is simply that...a healty fear that one knows more than another and that one has more power than the other.  It's not necessarily the fear of pain and doom.  I've already acknowledged that certainly some view it and hold to their "faith" by the fear of pain and doom.  :)

I don't know/recall ever telling someone they are going to hell.  Now, I do joke about it (which is probably wrong) and in instances I may tell someone that has just cheated on their taxes, run a red light..."You're going to hell!"  But this is in context of a friend.  However as a point of me "knowing" for certain that someone is going to hell and thus proclaiming it as fact, is just wrong.  I don't know you or anyone's heart (which is where our true identity and beliefs is), or our inner-selfs.  I cannot presume that you will remain an Atheist all your life.  I don't know that.  You may be sure of it, but that's your own knowledge of yourself.  From a Christian perspective, I cannot do this knowing that only God knows each of us in our heart and knows what each will choose.  I don't know that so for me to make a judgment and use it as a scare-tactic is so wrong.  I would not hesitate to tell another Christian doing this that he/she is wrong in doing so and possibly even damning themselves in doing so.  If it interests you, you may want to ask your mother again and make sure it is the unhealthy fear she serves God from.  Maybe you took it wrong or maybe you're right.  I don't know.

What is fact (fact if the Bible is correct) is that choice is given.  If a person has chosen to disbelieve, then the consequence is hell...but more specifically the consequence is death.  Now, as an Atheist, you don't have a problem with death as you know in your heart that one day you will die.  I don't think anyone disputes this point.  So to say God is some kind of demon or fear-monger in making one choice death and another choice life...it just seems to go overboard.  You're an Atheist and at this time (again if the Bible is true) and Christ comes...you've made your choice and what is there more to say.  Of course you can protest that there were no clues, evidence, warnings...whatever else, or you can curse God for not giving you what you wanted to believe and simply die...as you would if there were no God.  I'm not sure what scares you specifically.  Would you like to elaborate?  I don't wish to debate you, but maybe I can shed some light on the subject or at least give you a different perspective.

Quote from: "Cross"And if we are the so-called 'children' of this God, why must we bow to him? You don't see me bowing to my parent.

That's not necessarily what God wants.  It can seem so, I don't deny the words indicate this.  Sometimes to bow is simply to acknowledge love or respect.  Other things are included there too.  To love as children love is more in tune with the true meaning, not manipulation and control.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"But that is not the context we are using, so this analogy fails.

I can appreciate this "other" point, however when I mention 'fear' in context of fearing God, it is simply that...a healty fear that one knows more than another and that one has more power than the other.  It's not necessarily the fear of pain and doom.  I've already acknowledged that certainly some view it and hold to their "faith" by the fear of pain and doom.  :)

I don't know/recall ever telling someone they are going to hell.  Now, I do joke about it (which is probably wrong) and in instances I may tell someone that has just cheated on their taxes, run a red light..."You're going to hell!"  But this is in context of a friend.  However as a point of me "knowing" for certain that someone is going to hell and thus proclaiming it as fact, is just wrong.  I don't know you or anyone's heart (which is where our true identity and beliefs is), or our inner-selfs.  I cannot presume that you will remain an Atheist all your life.  I don't know that.  You may be sure of it, but that's your own knowledge of yourself.  From a Christian perspective, I cannot do this knowing that only God knows each of us in our heart and knows what each will choose.  I don't know that so for me to make a judgment and use it as a scare-tactic is so wrong.  I would not hesitate to tell another Christian doing this that he/she is wrong in doing so and possibly even damning themselves in doing so.  If it interests you, you may want to ask your mother again and make sure it is the unhealthy fear she serves God from.  Maybe you took it wrong or maybe you're right.  I don't know.

What is fact (fact if the Bible is correct) is that choice is given.  If a person has chosen to disbelieve, then the consequence is hell...but more specifically the consequence is death.  Now, as an Atheist, you don't have a problem with death as you know in your heart that one day you will die.  I don't think anyone disputes this point.  So to say God is some kind of demon or fear-monger in making one choice death and another choice life...it just seems to go overboard.  You're an Atheist and at this time (again if the Bible is true) and Christ comes...you've made your choice and what is there more to say.  Of course you can protest that there were no clues, evidence, warnings...whatever else, or you can curse God for not giving you what you wanted to believe and simply die...as you would if there were no God.  I'm not sure what scares you specifically.  Would you like to elaborate?  I don't wish to debate you, but maybe I can shed some light on the subject or at least give you a different perspective.

Quote from: "Cross"And if we are the so-called 'children' of this God, why must we bow to him? You don't see me bowing to my parent.

That's not necessarily what God wants.  It can seem so, I don't deny the words indicate this.  Sometimes to bow is simply to acknowledge love or respect.  Other things are included there too.  To love as children love is more in tune with the true meaning, not manipulation and control.

You continuously try to rationalize eternal damnation, and the burning in Hell as some sort of rational "Healthy Fear tool". And even the mention of death is playing on peoples fears to indoctrinate them into the ideology, and to control them from leaving it. Do you even know how brainwashing works? You clearly have no concept of how this is used in religion. And when it comes to choices, you clearly don't comprehend what a "Free agent" is. Hence, what free will is. Forced servitude to worshiping him or damnation is pretty screwed up! You may as well be worshiping Hitler or face getting burned alive.  

And BTW, Any "GOD" that would damn you to burn in hell because you didn't believe in him is psychologically fucked up. And that is a real big EGO there that needs some serious therapy. No matter how you try to rationalize this as "LOVE", you can never magically make Damnation to burn in hell sound "Loving"..  Especially from a Deity that is said to have committed genocide just because he was sorry for ever creating man. Read the Genesis quotes and you clearly see what can be best described as a psychopath. Behaviors commonly found in serial killers. Not much love there vs Anger and Hate..

Quote from: "Cross"{snip}
Or the unicorn currently nibbling my ear.... it kind of tickles. -giggles-

:D

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Cross"{snip}
Or the unicorn currently nibbling my ear.... it kind of tickles. -giggles-

:D

That would sound sweet if it wasn't coming from a cavern mouthed zombie.  

(My 40 cents - adjusted to inflation)

If you're a Calvinist (Protestant), you have no choice; no free will. God already knows who's going to Heaven or Hell. Being omni - God, he's known this from time immemorial. Of course, we all know the problems of an omni - God has existing, etc.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "Tank"

Quote from: "Cross"{snip}
Or the unicorn currently nibbling my ear.... it kind of tickles. -giggles-

:D

That would sound sweet if it wasn't coming from a cavern mouthed zombie.  

Yeah, Tank, your avatar scares meh DDD:

It really does >.>

Quote from: "Cross"Yeah, Tank, your avatar scares meh DDD:

It really does >.>

Oh come ON people! Am I the only one who wants a super hi-res of it as a desktop background on my BIG screen?  :hmm: Is tank maybe a zombified form of SSY..?  :raised:

Quote from: "Asmodean"

Quote from: "Cross"Yeah, Tank, your avatar scares meh DDD:

It really does >.>

Oh come ON people! Am I the only one who wants a super hi-res of it as a desktop background on my BIG screen?  :hmm: Is tank maybe a zombified form of SSY..?  :raised:

.... -cries at the sight of zombie again-

T^T

No want DDD:<

I always keep hearing about Jesus being a zombie, and I hate zomibes >_<

They creep me out... >.>

A tiled SSY is hard to beat.

Quote from: "Cross"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"

Quote from: "Tank":D

That would sound sweet if it wasn't coming from a cavern mouthed zombie.  :D

Quote from: "Tank"It's my Halloween avatar, it will revert on Monday  :P

Hi Jackel...thx for your points and interest.  I'll do my best to answer or at least bring a little light on the subject from a point of view that differs from yours.  

Quote from: "TheJackel"You continuously try to rationalize eternal damnation, and the burning in Hell as some sort of rational "Healthy Fear tool".

I think you may be misunderstanding the original point.  It was not of hell, but simply fearing God for who He is.  A healthy fear like that of a child toward a parent, fearing consequences for doing things against the parent's wish or home "law".  My mention of fear had nothing to do with hell.

Quote from: "TheJackel"And even the mention of death is playing on peoples fears to indoctrinate them into the ideology, and to control them from leaving it.

I hardly think any one has the idea that they will live forever (leaving aside the Christian afterlife) and have no added fears in death than we already know to be true and inevitable.

Quote from: "TheJackel"Do you even know how brainwashing works? You clearly have no concept of how this is used in religion.

Actually I thought I had a good idea, however I did a quick search and found a few things not remotely in common such as sleep deprivation, starvation, separation from others, constant fear of physical harm...(now if you call hell a constant fear of harm, I would tend to agree if hell is the main point, which it's not...and even if, hell is a distant pain and not the here and now in typical brainwashing techniques)

Quote from: "TheJackel"And when it comes to choices, you clearly don't comprehend what a "Free agent" is. Hence, what free will is.

If you give me what it is, then I can agree or disagree.

Quote from: "TheJackel"Forced servitude to worshiping him or damnation is pretty screwed up! You may as well be worshiping Hitler or face getting burned alive.

It could be you misunderstand God...or in the least differ on interpretation of God and what He is or does.

If I may use a crude and less than perfect analogy of what God is.  Let's assume God is FIRE and nothing is able to abide with Him that isn't fire.  Everything else would simply burn up in His presence.  God's delight. if you will, is making other beings in His likeness (otherwise they can't exist) and so He creates small lighters that while they burn as He does, can exist with Him, not to mention He "ran His thumb on the wheel creating the spark that ignited the flame.  Initially, there is no need for filling the fuel reservoir as God keeps it full.  Then one lighter consumed by pride, thinks itself able to sustain its own life apart from God, having freewill.  Once that decision is made and the created separates itself from that which brings it life, the reservoir is now being consumed and will run out eventually.  I'm hoping you understand my crude analogy, it's not meant to be perfect, but simply to convey a point.  I think at this point I can ask the question, Is it God's fault, and so cruel of Him or Hitler-like, that the created chooses to separate and become something that cannot exist with Him?   The lighter then begins to influence others to think the same and so they also separate.  Basically they are believing one over the other.  It's not simply "believing IN God", but belief that without God, life is temporal.  That without God, eventually everything not being fed by God for life will burn simply because there is no other way...if God is God.  If God is Fire, can He change that nothing can survive Fire that isn't a fire also?

Quote from: "TheJackel"And BTW, Any "GOD" that would damn you to burn in hell because you didn't believe in him is psychologically fucked up. And that is a real big EGO there that needs some serious therapy. No matter how you try to rationalize this as "LOVE", you can never magically make Damnation to burn in hell sound "Loving".

Is it loving to force someone to believe if they don't?  Having the same "evidence" (I acknowledge "you" don't think there is evidence) to believe, yet many think there is, or not to believe (as this forum is evidence of the latter) is it not truly free will?  If you know the consequences IF this rediculous notion is true, have you not chosen your path?  It seems so and you are comfortable and confident in it, are you not?  It's not EFF'd up at all.  You already know what your choice brings and you disagree with God.  You are free to disagree and live out your life and either way, you and I will die whether God exists or He doesn't.

Quote from: "TheJackal"Especially from a Deity that is said to have committed genocide just because he was sorry for ever creating man. Read the Genesis quotes and you clearly see what can be best described as a psychopath. Behaviors commonly found in serial killers. Not much love there vs Anger and Hate..

Have you never heard of a parent being "sorry" a child was born just to see the path the child's life has lead.  Does that remorse remove the love and hope that was in the child at the beginning?

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Hi Jackel...thx for your points and interest.  I'll do my best to answer or at least bring a little light on the subject from a point of view that differs from yours.  

Quote from: "TheJackel"You continuously try to rationalize eternal damnation, and the burning in Hell as some sort of rational "Healthy Fear tool".

I think you may be misunderstanding the original point.  It was not of hell, but simply fearing God for who He is.  A healthy fear like that of a child toward a parent, fearing consequences for doing things against the parent's wish or home "law".  My mention of fear had nothing to do with hell.

Quote from: "TheJackel"And even the mention of death is playing on peoples fears to indoctrinate them into the ideology, and to control them from leaving it.

I hardly think any one has the idea that they will live forever (leaving aside the Christian afterlife) and have no added fears in death than we already know to be true and inevitable.

Quote from: "TheJackel"Do you even know how brainwashing works? You clearly have no concept of how this is used in religion.

Actually I thought I had a good idea, however I did a quick search and found a few things not remotely in common such as sleep deprivation, starvation, separation from others, constant fear of physical harm...(now if you call hell a constant fear of harm, I would tend to agree if hell is the main point, which it's not...and even if, hell is a distant pain and not the here and now in typical brainwashing techniques)

Quote from: "TheJackel"And when it comes to choices, you clearly don't comprehend what a "Free agent" is. Hence, what free will is.

If you give me what it is, then I can agree or disagree.

Quote from: "TheJackel"Forced servitude to worshiping him or damnation is pretty screwed up! You may as well be worshiping Hitler or face getting burned alive.

It could be you misunderstand God...or in the least differ on interpretation of God and what He is or does.

If I may use a crude and less than perfect analogy of what God is.  Let's assume God is FIRE and nothing is able to abide with Him that isn't fire.  Everything else would simply burn up in His presence.  God's delight. if you will, is making other beings in His likeness (otherwise they can't exist) and so He creates small lighters that while they burn as He does, can exist with Him, not to mention He "ran His thumb on the wheel creating the spark that ignited the flame.  Initially, there is no need for filling the fuel reservoir as God keeps it full.  Then one lighter consumed by pride, thinks itself able to sustain its own life apart from God, having freewill.  Once that decision is made and the created separates itself from that which brings it life, the reservoir is now being consumed and will run out eventually.  I'm hoping you understand my crude analogy, it's not meant to be perfect, but simply to convey a point.  I think at this point I can ask the question, Is it God's fault, and so cruel of Him or Hitler-like, that the created chooses to separate and become something that cannot exist with Him?   The lighter then begins to influence others to think the same and so they also separate.  Basically they are believing one over the other.  It's not simply "believing IN God", but belief that without God, life is temporal.  That without God, eventually everything not being fed by God for life will burn simply because there is no other way...if God is God.  If God is Fire, can He change that nothing can survive Fire that isn't a fire also?

Quote from: "TheJackel"And BTW, Any "GOD" that would damn you to burn in hell because you didn't believe in him is psychologically fucked up. And that is a real big EGO there that needs some serious therapy. No matter how you try to rationalize this as "LOVE", you can never magically make Damnation to burn in hell sound "Loving".

Is it loving to force someone to believe if they don't?  Having the same "evidence" (I acknowledge "you" don't think there is evidence) to believe, yet many think there is, or not to believe (as this forum is evidence of the latter) is it not truly free will?  If you know the consequences IF this rediculous notion is true, have you not chosen your path?  It seems so and you are comfortable and confident in it, are you not?  It's not EFF'd up at all.  You already know what your choice brings and you disagree with God.  You are free to disagree and live out your life and either way, you and I will die whether God exists or He doesn't.

Quote from: "TheJackal"Especially from a Deity that is said to have committed genocide just because he was sorry for ever creating man. Read the Genesis quotes and you clearly see what can be best described as a psychopath. Behaviors commonly found in serial killers. Not much love there vs Anger and Hate..

Have you never heard of a parent being "sorry" a child was born just to see the path the child's life has lead.  Does that remorse remove the love and hope that was in the child at the beginning?

Again you are resorting to circular arguments of rationalization.. Parents don't murder their kids in mass genocide. Would you toss your child into the oven and cook them alive because they disobey you and go their own way in life?  It's no wonder why so many theists a psychologically screwed up. Then you have the Parents that drowned their Kids in the bathtub because they are sorry for ever having them, or to "protect" them from demons ect.

And when it comes to omnipotence, you have a lot to learn how that is a logical fallacy. Especially when it comes to "Free will". And I won't even go into the stupidity it would take for an all knowing deity to create life that would be disobedient to his will and then burn them in hell for doing so. It's retarded to begin with. And for the record, omnipotence is impossible, as it's a direct self-contradiction.

Worst of all, you can't create reality when yourself is equally bound to require it materially and physically. Can't create complexity, consciousness, existence, time, or even the container to one's self so one's self can have a place to actually exist. GOD's are nonsensical self-contradictions.. And consciousness is only observability of reality and not the creator of.

Quote from: "TheJackel"Again you are resorting to circular arguments of rationalization.. Parents don't murder their kids in mass genocide. Would you toss your child into the oven and cook them alive because they disobey you and go their own way in life?  It's no wonder why so many theists a psychologically screwed up. Then you have the Parents that drowned their Kids in the bathtub because they are sorry for ever having them, or to "protect" them from demons ect.

And when it comes to omnipotence, you have a lot to learn how that is a logical fallacy. Especially when it comes to "Free will". And I won't even go into the stupidity it would take for an all knowing deity to create life that would be disobedient to his will and then burn them in hell for doing so. It's retarded to begin with. And for the record, omnipotence is impossible, as it's a direct self-contradiction.

Worst of all, you can't create reality when yourself is equally bound to require it materially and physically. Can't create complexity, consciousness, existence, time, or even the container to one's self so one's self can have a place to actually exist. GOD's are nonsensical self-contradictions.. And consciousness is only observability of reality and not the creator of.

I thought a discussion might be in the works, I suppose I was wrong.  Have a great day.

QuoteI thought a discussion might be in the works, I suppose I was wrong.  Have a great day.

You seemed to be digging for one, so I gave it to you. You wanted to play a circular game of rationality as if you could magically make irrationality rational. And your GOD didn't just kill baby humans in it's little tantrum within the book of Genesis, He basically drowned hundreds of billions of living organisms in a giant bathtub(Earth) because he was sorry for creating man. That includes baby bunnies, little lion cubs, and baby elephants. I'm sure animals love to drown. And what's worse is that said magical sky fairy could only come up with violence and irrational logic to try and fix his little problem that he supposedly created. Only a heartless genocidal maniac would do that kind of thing. And we will just skip the fact that there isn't enough water and ice on this planet to cause water levels to rise any higher than 250 ft  above sea level. .. It's just nonsensical.

Now when it comes to parenting, you don't mortify your children with threats of death, or burning them in the oven. Any parent that verbally abuses or threatens their kids ought to have their kids taken away from them until they can get some serious therapy. There is no rationalizing inappropriate use of fear. That's not how LOVE works.

Quote from: "TheJackel"

QuoteI thought a discussion might be in the works, I suppose I was wrong.  Have a great day.

You seemed to be digging for one, so I gave it to you. You wanted to play a circular game of rationality as if you could magically make irrationality rational. And your GOD didn't just kill baby humans in it's little tantrum within the book of Genesis, He basically drowned hundreds of billions of living organisms in a giant bathtub(Earth) because he was sorry for creating man. That includes baby bunnies, little lion cubs, and baby elephants. I'm sure animals love to drown. And what's worse is that said magical sky fairy could only come up with violence and irrational logic to try and fix his little problem that he supposedly created. Only a heartless genocidal maniac would do that kind of thing. And we will just skip the fact that there isn't enough water and ice on this planet to cause water levels to rise any higher than 250 ft  above sea level. .. It's just nonsensical.

Now when it comes to parenting, you don't mortify your children with threats of death, or burning them in the oven. Any parent that verbally abuses or threatens their kids ought to have their kids taken away from them until they can get some serious therapy. There is no rationalizing inappropriate use of fear. That's not how LOVE works.

No, I truly thought you might want to discuss, not just throw insults back and forth.  That's very easy to do, but my choice is to remain in good standing here on "your" forum.  Thanks for your exchange though.

QuoteNo, I truly thought you might want to discuss, not just throw insults back and forth.  That's very easy to do, but my choice is to remain in good standing here on "your" forum.  Thanks for your exchange though.

Ahh, I didn't throw out any insults. 2ndly, this isn't my forum. 3rdly, intellectual debates stem from honest discourse and not from circular arguments that try to rationalize irrationality. If you want to discuss the Concept of a GOD, you can feel free to try. However, that is a very slippery and movable goal post to where any concept can be refuted, or even proven wrong. This is especially true since there is no actual defined definition of what a god really is. It could be myself, my cat, solipsism, or anything you want to label as such. You will find that argument to quickly collapse, and find it to be a self-contradiction. The concept of GOD is purely 100% opinion. I've already had this debate many times before, and I have never lost it for a very good reason. I can move the goal post, and you won't like that argument. :cool:

Quote from: "TheJackel"

QuoteNo, I truly thought you might want to discuss, not just throw insults back and forth.  That's very easy to do, but my choice is to remain in good standing here on "your" forum.  Thanks for your exchange though.

Ahh, I didn't throw out any insults. 2ndly, this isn't my forum. 3rdly, intellectual debates stem from honest discourse and not from circular arguments that try to rationalize irrationality. If you want to discuss the Concept of a GOD, you can feel free to try. However, that is a very slippery and movable goal post to where any concept can be refuted, or even proven wrong. This is especially true since there is no actual defined definition of what a god really is. It could be myself, my cat, solipsism, or anything you want to label as such. You will find that argument to quickly collapse, and find it to be a self-contradiction. The concept of GOD is purely 100% opinion. I've already had this debate many times before, and I have never lost it for a very good reason. I can move the goal post, and you won't like that argument. :cool:

If I'm insulted, then they are insults.  You're apparently insulted by my beliefs and so you throw nonsensical pink elephants, fairies...and the like into the mix...rightly so by your non-belief, but insulting to me.

I never said it was your forum, I said it is "your" forum.  Obviously insinuating that I am a guest here among believers of a different sort opposed to my belief.  If you can't see that, then I stand corrected that it is not "your" forum.

I was honestly answering your points.  If they lack enough intellectuality for you, then I apologize for my stupid ignorance in the face of your intellectual superiority.

I apologize to Cross for side-tracking this thread.  Moving on.  

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "TheJackel"

QuoteNo, I truly thought you might want to discuss, not just throw insults back and forth.  That's very easy to do, but my choice is to remain in good standing here on "your" forum.  Thanks for your exchange though.

Ahh, I didn't throw out any insults. 2ndly, this isn't my forum. 3rdly, intellectual debates stem from honest discourse and not from circular arguments that try to rationalize irrationality. If you want to discuss the Concept of a GOD, you can feel free to try. However, that is a very slippery and movable goal post to where any concept can be refuted, or even proven wrong. This is especially true since there is no actual defined definition of what a god really is. It could be myself, my cat, solipsism, or anything you want to label as such. You will find that argument to quickly collapse, and find it to be a self-contradiction. The concept of GOD is purely 100% opinion. I've already had this debate many times before, and I have never lost it for a very good reason. I can move the goal post, and you won't like that argument. :cool:

If I'm insulted, then they are insults.  You're apparently insulted by my beliefs and so you throw nonsensical pink elephants, fairies...and the like into the mix...rightly so by your non-belief, but insulting to me.

I never said it was your forum, I said it is "your" forum.  Obviously insinuating that I am a guest here among believers of a different sort opposed to my belief.  If you can't see that, then I stand corrected that it is not "your" forum.

I was honestly answering your points.  If they lack enough intellectuality for you, then I apologize for my stupid ignorance in the face of your intellectual superiority.

I apologize to Cross for side-tracking this thread.  Moving on.  

Did you seriously think opposite views wouldn't be incompatible? Now you are trying to play the morality game to deflect from having to actually address the inherent problems to your beliefs system. And you soon forget that I can't actually insult something that doesn't exist. Kind of like how Unicorns don't exist, but are claimed to have in the bible. Arguing from a Carl Sagan position is inherently the nonsensical part of this discussion. Thus you are stuck with the equivocation of said deity to that of something like a Pixie fairy. Worse yet, you actually believe that my disbelief is insulting to you. Now that is some rich Dogma there because I don't find it at all insulting that you believe in a GOD. I think you need to reevaluate that position, and stop emotional pleading for credibility. And in no way am I claiming "Intellectual superiority" vs holding you to an honest debate.

So what your posts lack intellectually is ability to remain honest. Rationalizing immoral and abusive behavior is not intellectually honest. It's at best advocating that it's ok to throw your kids into the oven and cook them to death so long as you are sorry for creating them due to their disobedient behavior, or because they don't worship you, or even believe in you. An honest person would know you can't make death, violence, fear mongering, or burning in hell sound loving, or even loving in nature. Much less the idea of the creation of death, pain, starvation, disease, suffering, torture, abuse, genocide, anger, hate, disorders, birth defects, violent events, accidents, ect.

"Thou shall not Kill"

Great moral value, hypocritical by nature of that which you claim had said it. Especially when it had invented death itself under your belief system. Not much you can give for an excuse to a deity that's supposed to be an all "LOVING" Parent like figure to which is also supposed to be Omnipotent. It gets worse knowing what Omnipotent means.

Quote from: "TheJackel"Did you seriously think opposite views wouldn't be incompatible?

Not at all.  That doesn't mean we can't discuss in a manner more condusive to learning rather than imputing one's superiorty over the other.

Quote from: "TheJackel"Now you are trying to play the morality game to deflect from having to actually address the inherent problems to your beliefs system. And you soon forget that I can't actually insult something that doesn't exist. Kind of like how Unicorns don't exist, but are claimed to have in the bible. Arguing from a Carl Sagan position is inherently the nonsensical part of this discussion. Thus you are stuck with the equivocation of said deity to that of something like a Pixie fairy. Worse yet, you actually believe that my disbelief is insulting to you. Now that is some rich Dogma there because I don't find it at all insulting that you believe in a GOD. I think you need to reevaluate that position, and stop emotional pleading for credibility. And in no way am I claiming "Intellectual superiority" vs holding you to an honest debate.

So what your posts lack intellectually is ability to remain honest. Rationalizing immoral and abusive behavior is not intellectually honest. It's at best advocating that it's ok to throw your kids into the oven and cook them to death so long as you are sorry for creating them due to their disobedient behavior, or because they don't worship you, or even believe in you. An honest person would know you can't make death, violence, fear mongering, or burning in hell sound loving, or even loving in nature. Much less the idea of the creation of death, pain, starvation, disease, suffering, torture, abuse, genocide, anger, hate, disorders, birth defects, violent events, accidents, ect.

"Thou shall not Kill"

Great moral value, hypocritical by nature of that which you claim had said it. Especially when it had invented death itself under your belief system. Not much you can give for an excuse to a deity that's supposed to be an all "LOVING" Parent like figure to which is also supposed to be Omnipotent. It gets worse knowing what Omnipotent means.

I tried to put forth an intelligent analogy that we could exchange ideas about what I believe and you don't.  You reject it, or better, you ignored it and simply made fun of it.  So be it.

Your disbelief is not insulting to me.  You choose to use a  crass method of discussion, as idiotic as you think it may be to discuss with me, is what is insulting...not your disbelief.  This is why I stated that it's easy to throw insults back and forth, but you don't seem to understand the point.  Maybe that is your point, and I get it.  My belief is so unintelligent that to discuss it is impossible without bringing up fairy tales.  It's your only method, apparently.  My wish would simply be that if "Thou shalt not kill" is the question, let's discuss it.  We both believe in the command/law, simply one of us has a another reason aside from civil morality.  I can understand you think my belief is stupid, but you pose no question as to the rational behind it, instead attribute it to impossible things.  You've made up your mind it is equivalent to pink elephants etc. so you treat it as a joke and cannot move past the game.  

It's quite apparent you'd rather not discuss intelligently...as limited as I am...but instead you keep on going in the same circle as you accuse me of going in.  Let's just end our part in this thread for now.  It's probably doing nothing for the OP's intention for posting this question.

Thanks again.

QuoteNot at all.  That doesn't mean we can't discuss in a manner more condusive to learning rather than imputing one's superiorty over the other.

Then please refrain from acting like it. And again this isn't imputing superiority, you seriously need to drop that reaching argument. Arguing for rationality is not imputing superiority.

QuoteI tried to put forth an intelligent analogy that we could exchange ideas about what I believe and you don't.  You reject it, or better, you ignored it and simply made fun of it.  So be it.

I am aware of your attempt to put forth an intelligent analogy. However, your analogy doesn't even come close to actually being reflective of what you attempted to analogize. And I didn't make fun of anything vs being blunt and straight forward to cut off circular arguments.

QuoteYour disbelief is not insulting to me. You choose to use a  crass method of discussion, as idiotic as you think it may be to discuss with me, is what is insulting...not your disbelief.

This is a prime case of Christian realism to where anything against their religion is considered a direct insult to themselves. It's a means to ignore what doesn't agree with them by equivocating it to being insulting, demonic, evil ect. The topic has to do with you trying to side step the problems discussed above. This is why you revert to this topic of discussion vs addressing the problems specifically outlined above.  Prime example is as follows:

QuoteThis is why I stated that it's easy to throw insults back and forth, but you don't seem to understand the point.  Maybe that is your point, and I get it.  My belief is so unintelligent that to discuss it is impossible without bringing up fairy tales.  It's your only method, apparently.

Then after you are done with emotional pleading you state the following:

QuoteMy wish would simply be that if "Thou shalt not kill" is the question, let's discuss it.  We both believe in the command/law, simply one of us has a another reason aside from civil morality.

Here you did not evaluate the Law in regards to that supposedly made the law and broke it. Not only did it break the law, it created the law that routinely breaks it. Logically, why would such laws need to exists if you simply remove that which breaks it? Self-contradiction and hypocrisy do not make GODS, or even Omnipotent ones for that matter. However, you revert back to more emotional pleading vs actually addressing the issue below:

QuoteI can understand you think my belief is stupid, but you pose no question as to the rational behind it, instead attribute it to impossible things.  You've made up your mind it is equivalent to pink elephants etc. so you treat it as a joke and cannot move past the game.  

No where did I say your belief in GOD was stupid. That context is a matter of opinion, and is irrelevant considering anything can be stated to be a "GOD". That includes ourselves. I equivocate your supposed GOD to such things because it has no more evidence to support it's existence than that of something like a pixie fairy. It's the Carl Sagan's Invisible dragon, and it's a baseless position. Hence I am treating it like fiction vs a "Joke". And there are several paradoxes that disprove the possibility of Omnipotence because it's a direct self-contradiction. If you like, I can outline them here.

QuoteIt's quite apparent you'd rather not discuss intelligently...as limited as I am...but instead you keep on going in the same circle as you accuse me of going in.  Let's just end our part in this thread for now.  It's probably doing nothing for the OP's intention for posting this question.

Incorrect, and I am not the one avoiding the discussion. The circle I bring you around is the circle that is trying to force you to actually address the argument vs avoiding it. When you can actually address the argument, you let me know.

Quote from: "TheJackel"When you can actually address the argument, you let me know.

When you can discuss without reverting to making fun of and simply talk, you let me know.

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"

Quote from: "TheJackel"When you can actually address the argument, you let me know.

When you can discuss without reverting to making fun of and simply talk, you let me know.

Nobody made fun, please refrain from making baseless assertions, or stop instigating circular arguments that seem intended to place you on a "Moral High Ground". We can simply talk, I've been doing that the entire time. I would rather you simply address the argument vs deflect from it. And you do realize you are talking to an EX-Christian correct?

This will be very direct, and no explanations or excuses required.

Did your GOD -->kill<-- anything?

I hope you're still keeping up with this thread...
I'm not athiest, but I do think that you should absolutely get facts and stick to your guns. By facts, I mean to review what each side presents as fact.  Sometimes it's like a political smear campaign with both sides ripping the other to shreds but never really stating what they stand for. It's easy for Christians to default to, "What if you're wrong?" and for Atheists to default to,"You can't prove God exists." I think by making the choice to ask questions you've already started out strong, and I hope you find enough support here (and eventually in your community) to be more confident in your choice.

People, including your friends and family, don't have the authority to damn you to hell. If it's real, they certainly couldn't send you there anyways. They may think it concerns them, especially your family, but the truth is you have a brain that functions perfectly well, and you get to use it to make informed decisions about your life. (Remind your family/friends that their duty as Christians obligates them only to teach you about faith, not to force it on you. If they're frightened for your soul, tell them they've done their part...it would be between you and God anyways).

QuoteIf there really was a God, why would he put so many religions on the earth. There are so many! How the hell should we know what to follow. If I was a Christian, some other religion would be saying I was going to hell.

As a Christian, other Christians will tell you you're going to hell, depending on what denomination you are :D

Of course, I would love everyone to see religion the way I do!!.... but it's just not going to happen. It's a personal choice. I chose to have faith, and I chose my religion based on history and how I am allowed to accept ideals that other denominations don't. I think before you quesiton WHICH religion is right, you have to decide IF religion is right. If it's not something you can live by then you've got your whole life to read up on what everybody else believes, and I wouldn't sweat it. If it's still something you feel drawn to, though, or if you're just curious about it,  it might be helpful to get a couple books on religions that touch on the basics of what each believes. ((i.e. The Complete Guide to Christian Denominations: Understanding the History, Beliefs, and Differences by Ron Rhodes, 10$ Amazon or B&N; World Religions in a Nutshell: A Compact Guide to Reaching Those of Other Faiths by Ray Comfor, 10.19$ Amazon/B&N))

You know what?  I dont get it either .... I think it's important to not get too caught up in what drives people- it will make you crazy.

I feel really isolated too but lately im finding that there are many athiests or other like minded people out there, we just dont advertise it: You are not alone by any means.  You will find people in your life that you can relate to.

The best advice I can give you is to love yourself and never let anyone make you feel inferior or wrong because of who you are or what you believe in.  

It gets so much better after highschool I promise!  Your so brave and so smart, you have an amazing life ahead of you.

/hug

Unfortunately, over the centuries the Christians and Muslims have been so effective at imposing their religion that just between these two, they claim to account for almost a full third of the planet's population. Over time, these religions have become a "defacto standard" in our lives. They cling to the belief that if enough people believe in something then there must be some truth to it. Tell that to flat earth society ( http://theflatearthsociety.org/ (http://theflatearthsociety.org/) ).

It's like when [strike:2avmf3ft]Newton[/strike:2avmf3ft] Copernicus proposed that the Earth was not the center of the universe. At the time, for most people, it was an unimaginable statement. How could anybody think that? Well, now we have streams of evidence pouring in that directly contradicts science and history as it is presented in "the good book". And yet people still cling to their security blanket. This is the mentality you are dealing with. A mentality born of ignorance and superstition. One that says: "Well, since science doesn't have all the answers, I am going to believe something completely irrational and without foundation." It's just silly.

And if you take the position that religion is false, then you start to see all the problems with it. For instance, in education, there are those who want "equal time" with Creationism and Evolution. It's the equivalent of saying "after biology class, we are going to learn all about how storks make babies and distribute them to deserving parents". It's ridiculous. At least the creationists have the balls the to stand up for what they believe in, unlike so called cafeteria catholics and "liberal" Christians that "don't take the bible so literally".

The population is expanding at a phenomenal rate, resources are dwindling, the extinction of other species is increasing at an alarming rate and liberal Christians are running around preaching the childish notion of the prosperity gospel? They say things like "God wants to bless you" and "God loves you and He wants you to live in prosperity". People tend to interpret that as saying "God wants you to have money and cars and houses and clothes and accessories and a ps3 and a 50" plasma tv and ..." You have to hand it to them, it's a good way of distracting gullible people from $15 trillion worth of debt owed by the American people and the fact that we're raping the planet, damn near killing ourselves and others in order to fulfill this silly notion of "prosperity".

In my opinion, religion should be put in the mythology section. And we people should start working towards heaven on earth instead of just waiting for our troubles to end in some imaginary afterlife. We need to stop praying and start thinking. You are way more capable than religion would like to give you credit for. If you want to have "faith" - have faith in yourself, not some imaginary authoritarian god.

Good post, but it was Copernicus and not Newton who disposed of geocentrism.

I was reading an article today off another website discussing the Large Hadron Collider, and how they were changing over to different elements inside. Somebody commented on how it was a waste of time, since they wouldn't be able to figure out how the universe was created, and that knowledge was not for us to learn anyways - this someone being Christian, of course.

The motto of Christians when it comes to science seems to not be "I give up," since they of course love the internet, phones, tech, etc., but more of a "don't research things that question my beliefs."

Keep your head in the sand, folks, nothing to see here...

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Good post, but it was Copernicus and not Newton who disposed of geocentrism.

The force is strong with you ... my apologies. You are correct: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus)

Fascinating article too.

Quote from: "Croaker"I was reading an article today off another website discussing the Large Hadron Collider, and how they were changing over to different elements inside. Somebody commented on how it was a waste of time, since they wouldn't be able to figure out how the universe was created, and that knowledge was not for us to learn anyways - this someone being Christian, of course.

The motto of Christians when it comes to science seems to not be "I give up," since they of course love the internet, phones, tech, etc., but more of a "don't research things that question my beliefs."

Keep your head in the sand, folks, nothing to see here...

I can only laugh. I mean, what else can I do?

And I would love see that article. Please post the link if you have it.

I'm still waiting for AnimatedDirt to answer my question to see if he can actually face the reality of it rationally, and without trying to rationalize killing something intentionally.

BTW TheFlatEarthSociety.org is either a Joke site, or people trying to teach creationism. I especially laughed at them when they thought they could take the globe (an oblate sphere) and magically create an accurate map on a projected flat disk. Even if they used equal area map projection, it would laughably fail time speed and distance. Worst part is, the map in their Faq uses Earth's circumference as their diameter while knowing that is the formula for unfolding a sphere into circle. However, it can't be done without adding mass area . I had one of them argue that distances would be the same LOL, along with the coordinate system. That's the kind of intelligence you are dealing with when confronting creationists. They are either intentionally stupid, or they really are stupid.

Facts don't matter to creationists, they simply don't care if they are wrong because their beliefs are emotionally bound to them. And they don't realize that is the key element on brainwashing. It's getting you emotionally bound to an ideological construct to the point where rationality is no-longer apart of their thought processes.

Quote from: "fazFwQo83"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Good post, but it was Copernicus and not Newton who disposed of geocentrism.

The force is strong with you ... my apologies. You are correct: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus)

Fascinating article too.

It's all good, just a little niggle.

Quote from: "fazFwQo83"And I would love see that article. Please post the link if you have it.

Here's the original story :
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101109132350.htm

The main thing they are searching for is 'quark-gluon plasma,' which can evolve into other types of matter, hopefully giving us better understanding into how the universe was created.

It was linkied to another page I frequent (that's where the comment arose) and here's the comment:

While I am interested in the collider, I don't think they will ever figure anything out.
Personally, believing in a Creator makes it difficult for me to see what science can prove or utilize with the data that they are gathering to be of any use.
I get what they are trying to do, just don't understand how they justify this small matter being able to evolve into matter as we know it today.

...right.

And in the meantime another one cropped up:

you know, i wish people would stop presenting the unknown and unprovable as scientific fact..... I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone, so i'd appreciate it if all these secular thinking scientists stopped speaking in absolutes when trying to explain shit they have no idea is true.

Quote from: "Croaker"...

Here's the original story :
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101109132350.htm

The main thing they are searching for is 'quark-gluon plasma,' which can evolve into other types of matter, hopefully giving us better understanding into how the universe was created.

It was linkied to another page I frequent (that's where the comment arose) and here's the comment:

While I am interested in the collider, I don't think they will ever figure anything out.
Personally, believing in a Creator makes it difficult for me to see what science can prove or utilize with the data that they are gathering to be of any use.
I get what they are trying to do, just don't understand how they justify this small matter being able to evolve into matter as we know it today.

...right.

And in the meantime another one cropped up:

you know, i wish people would stop presenting the unknown and unprovable as scientific fact..... I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone, so i'd appreciate it if all these secular thinking scientists stopped speaking in absolutes when trying to explain shit they have no idea is true.

WOW! Fantastic article and so great to see so much success at CERN. It's brilliant. And as they say on the site, I too am keen to see what they learn. Often these experiments are not only meant to discover new things, but help confirm and deny controversies over existing theory and contribute to the growing mountains of evidence in favour of science and rational thinking. Its great!

And regarding all the naysayers, its like someone famous once said: "I think science is interesting and if you don't, you can f#@k off!" I love it!

Quote from: "TheJackel"... BTW TheFlatEarthSociety.org is either a Joke site, or people trying to teach creationism ... They are either intentionally stupid, or they really are stupid. ...

They seem pretty adamant about their position to me ... but hey, people have the right to be as ignorant as they want and The Flat Earth Society seems to be taking full advantage.

QuoteOften these experiments are not only meant to discover new things, but help confirm and deny controversies over existing theory and contribute to the growing mountains of evidence in favour of science and rational thinking. Its great!

What's even better is that, in almost every field of science, every answer brings a few new questions along with it.