Happy Atheist Forum

The post is fairly self explanatory.

Background: I have been going out with my girlfriend for 10 years. I am an atheist, she is a non-practicing Muslim. The problem is her family. They insist on me converting in order to marry her. She has asked me to do this for the sake of an easy life. We live in England, her parents live in Indonesia. So it would be over to Indonesia for a marriage and then back to England for tea and biscuits and the rest of our lives (so i hope!!!).

The benefits of this arrangement are that she keeps her family onside and we can get on with our secular lives as normal.

As you may imagine i have tried to explore all of the contradictions and ethical issues involved including but not limited to; lying to her family, lying to myself, having to go through with the conversion and religious marriage, kids, etc etc....    

So does anyone have any thoughts on this as i'm in a real dilemma. To be totally clear I love this girl with all my heart.

What you're actually asking, then, is whether or not it's okay to lie to your future in-laws about something this serious. I don't know that we can answer this one for you. Personally? I'd probably not be willing to lie, but I'm not you.

Is your wife ok with you "converting" simply on paper and not actually buying into any of the tenets?  We all do crazy things for our inlaws, but honesty in the relationship with your future wife is vastly more important.

Quote from: "madness"Is your wife ok with you "converting" simply on paper and not actually buying into any of the tenets?  We all do crazy things for our inlaws, but honesty in the relationship with your future wife is vastly more important.

^ If there were a "like" button I would push it for this. ^

Love comes and goes.  Dishonesty lasts a lifetime.

When you say your gf is a "non-practicing muslim", what do you mean?
I don't mean to come off as coarse...but you've been together for 10 years...has the atheism issue never come up?  They are extremely far away, are they part of your lives at all?  If they can't respect your love for their daughter, why go through all the trouble to please them?

I know I couldn't.  I got married in a church, as much to keep my wife's parents happy as anything - that and the fairytale wedding thing.  They said their prayers and sang their hymns, but I never once said I believed in anything I didn't.  If they had insisted, I would have refused.  We didn't need their permission to get married, they weren't paying for it, and it wouldn't have stopped either of us if they hadn't approved.  13 years later, my wife has gone from skeptical agnostic to functional atheist and her (closeted gay) dad is still in deluded denial.

Your mileage may vary.  Ultimately this is a question nobody can answer but you.

My wife's best school friend 'H' had an English Mum and an Iraqi Dad. He was a serious Muslim. 'H' knew she was going to get dragged back to Iraq to marry a cousin or some such. 'H' was/is top shelf totty, really amazing.  :D

My brother went through the process of converting to Catholicism to marry.
That marriage did fail, but that's because he is often a jerk, religion didn't seem to matter.
Do any kids have to be Muslimised as well?
Are the parents devout?
Would they expect you to act devout, or just go through the motions?
I would find it hard to do though this, but I wouldn't think badly of anyone who did.

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."
Polonius in Hamlet Act 1, Scene 3 by William Shakespeare

IMHO, honesty is the best foundation for a long term relationship (of any kind).
If you don't believe, and your girlfriend doesn't either, why perpetuate the lie?
Time to bite the bullet and be honest with her parents.

It'll only be worse if it comes out later...

YMMV

What joeactor said. The time has come to an end for religion to make people convert (or other things) for love and happiness....such as marriage. If it were me, I wouldn't convert. My future wife would understand this, I would hope. I could care less what her parents would think. It's my life (and hers if we got married).

It would be like converting to a particular political spectrum/party in order to marry. Ain't gonna happen.

On a purely practical level, I object to the idea of letting the future inlaws impose conditions on the marriage.  That's a sure-fire recipe to invite further meddling, even from half-a-world away.  If a girl grants her parents this power, that scratches her off the list, afaiac.

This is his dilemma though, gentlemen.
He has been with her for 10 years.  I have been with my wife for 8 years thus far, and I could not imagine going a day without her.
I think you do need to have a serious discussion with your gf about the level of control her parents are going to be allowed in your lives.

Quote from: "kkma"The post is fairly self explanatory.

Background: I have been going out with my girlfriend for 10 years. I am an atheist, she is a non-practicing Muslim. The problem is her family. They insist on me converting in order to marry her. She has asked me to do this for the sake of an easy life. We live in England, her parents live in Indonesia. So it would be over to Indonesia for a marriage and then back to England for tea and biscuits and the rest of our lives (so i hope!!!).

The benefits of this arrangement are that she keeps her family onside and we can get on with our secular lives as normal.

As you may imagine i have tried to explore all of the contradictions and ethical issues involved including but not limited to; lying to her family, lying to myself, having to go through with the conversion and religious marriage, kids, etc etc....    

So does anyone have any thoughts on this as i'm in a real dilemma. To be totally clear I love this girl with all my heart.

My feelings are: it seems to me that their will be less problems if your girlfriend was honest with her parents. You could be laying the seeds for future problems with converting. It also appears that there is no easy option, unless you feel lying about it is acceptable.

Quote from: "DropLogic"This is his dilemma though, gentlemen.
He has been with her for 10 years.  I have been with my wife for 8 years thus far, and I could not imagine going a day without her.
I think you do need to have a serious discussion with your gf about the level of control her parents are going to be allowed in your lives.

I understand that that is his dliemma.  My point is that if even after ten years she still cannot bring herself to put her relationship with him first, then any marriage is likely to fail -- unless he does the bending.

What does kkma loose from playing out the charade?
A bit of time spent playing a distasteful game.
What does his gf loose if he doesn't? her family.

As long as children aren't involved, it's a reasonable thing someone would do for their partner.
But it is a considerable inconvenience, so during discussions some months of back rubs should be negotiated.

In my opinion your wife should consider your wishes over that of her family.  If she can accept your lack of belief then she should tell them they can either do the same or be cut off from her life.  It's going to come up one day anyway (you aren't going to raise your kids Muslim just to make her family happy are you?) so it might as well be nipped in the bud.  Not to mention that in my experience Muslim women who wish to live a secular life end up having to distance relations with Muslim family anyway; no amount of lies cover up that you aren't actually practicing Islam.  I'd also be concerned about even going back to her home for marriage, for all you know they'll not let her leave when the inevitably find out you aren't a true believer.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"What does kkma loose from playing out the charade?
A bit of time spent playing a distasteful game.
What does his gf loose if he doesn't? her family.

As long as children aren't involved, it's a reasonable thing someone would do for their partner.
But it is a considerable inconvenience, so during discussions some months of back rubs should be negotiated.

This is one of the few times I have completely disagreed with you.  If the choice is between gf losing her family, and having them butt into such personal matters, the latter arrangement ought to be avoided; if the camel gets his nose in the tent at bedtime, you shall wake up with him in your sleeping-bag in the morning.

Life is too short to be dishonest about it.

I used to live in Indonesia, and know several people in that exact predicament. Family is important to them, and they will want you in the same religion.

Actually you can convert quite easily, after all its just talking arabic and maybe doing an exam. The family won't question you about it too much they'll just be happy you converted, and you can be an atheist in heart and eat all the pig you want (though you dont tell the family that). And in Indonesia you can usually bribe the guy a bit of cash to pass the exams on your first go. easy.

but whatever you do, dont listen to the guys that tell you you need to be circumscised. its not a requirement of islam, merely a tradition.

also in indonesia you can find open minded officials who will marry you together whatever your faith.

if you love her, do it...
feel free to message me if you wanna know more...

I wouldn't do it, acquiescing to her parents' wishes now will only set a precedent of them making the rules. If their primary concern is the religion of the man their daughter marries, and not his character, it would seem they have little regard for her happiness, and merely wish to impose their own values. I wouldn't want people like that in my marriage, nor should your wife. If she decides that keeping her parents happy is the most important thing, then I would recommend flight, there are obviously other problems.

Also, why must you marry? If you have been muddling along OK like this up until now, why change things when it is bound to cause problems?

I agree with SSY.

10 years, thats alot logner than most marriages.

Is it really that important to her parents?

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"What does kkma loose from playing out the charade?
A bit of time spent playing a distasteful game.
What does his gf loose if he doesn't? her family.

As long as children aren't involved, it's a reasonable thing someone would do for their partner.
But it is a considerable inconvenience, so during discussions some months of back rubs should be negotiated.

This is one of the few times I have completely disagreed with you.  If the choice is between gf losing her family, and having them butt into such personal matters, the latter arrangement ought to be avoided; if the camel gets his nose in the tent at bedtime, you shall wake up with him in your sleeping-bag in the morning.

Life is too short to be dishonest about it.

On the subject of lies, kkma doesn't have lie to himself or to the love of his life.
He may not even have to lie to her parents.
I'm not sure how these things works, but perhaps once a marriage is performed satisfying custom, the parents are satisfied and responsibility for gf is handed to her husband.
I'm sure I would hold little fear of in laws half a world away.
I'm not convinced that the fears expressed apply here, kkma doesn't seem to think they do.

Quoteback to England for tea and biscuits and the rest of our lives (so i hope!!!).

But he has this

Quotelying to her family, lying to myself, having to go through with the conversion and religious marriage, kids, etc etc

I think he needs to talk to gf and make sure their views of the future agree, kids, etc etc is a bit vague.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"On the subject of lies, kkma doesn't have lie to himself or to the love of his life.
He may not even have to lie to her parents.

If he goes through the conversion process honestly, and honestly comes to believe, that's cool.  It's his horse, and he should ride it the way he sees fit.

However, if he goes through it solely to please them, and comes out still unconvinced, yet lets them think that he is a Muslim convert, then that is indeed lying: deceit by omission.

QuoteI'm not sure how these things works, but perhaps once a marriage is performed satisfying custom, the parents are satisfied and responsibility for gf is handed to her husband.

It occurs to me that if they are poking around like this already, the odds of this behavior ceasing upon wedlock are pretty small -- particularly if he doesn't honestly convert and that somehow comes to their attention.

QuoteI'm sure I would hold little fear of in laws half a world away.

I wouldn't worry about them if they lived next door.  A couple's love is a private affair, and no couple ought to submit to outsiders laying conditions upon its sanctification (forgive the neologism).

QuoteI'm not convinced that the fears expressed apply here, kkma doesn't seem to think they do.

I hope I'm wrong and you're right, but I'm not convinced.  Not that that matters to him.

Quoteback to England for tea and biscuits and the rest of our lives (so i hope!!!).

QuoteBut he has this

Quotelying to her family, lying to myself, having to go through with the conversion and religious marriage, kids, etc etc

I think he needs to talk to gf and make sure their views of the future agree, kids, etc etc is a bit vague.

Obviously he would consider it lying, from the quote you selected.

you are certainly going to get mixed responses on this.

changing your religion on paper is a small sacrifice to make for someone who is special to you.

though, this may eventually lead to some problems down the road.

i guess it depends.

Thanks for all of the responses.

Update: My girlfriend and i have decided to separate. It turns out that conversion and appeasing her family was going to be quite an ordeal. Apparently the father wanted me to go on a 2 year conversion course!!! F#*k that! I thought it would be one week at the most. Also my girlfriend has promised to move back closer to her family and i cannot deal with the lies and deceit that would come about from this arrangement. She was not prepared to risk the exclusion of her family and ultimately she was not prepared to marry a non-muslim (even though she would know in my heart that i am not, should i have converted, as would the all powerful Allah! )  

Finally i think  joeactor's quote spoke to me the most~:

Quote from: "joeactor""This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."
Polonius in Hamlet Act 1, Scene 3 by William Shakespeare

I dont think i can live a lie.

I just wish it hadn't taken me 10 years to work this out.

Many thanks

kkma.

Quote from: "kkma"Thanks for all of the responses.

Update: My girlfriend and i have decided to separate. It turns out that conversion and appeasing her family was going to be quite an ordeal. Apparently the father wanted me to go on a 2 year conversion course!!! F#*k that! I thought it would be one week at the most. Also my girlfriend has promised to move back closer to her family and i cannot deal with the lies and deceit that would come about from this arrangement. She was not prepared to risk the exclusion of her family and ultimately she was not prepared to marry a non-muslim (even though she would know in my heart that i am not, should i have converted, as would the all powerful Allah! )  

Finally i think  joeactor's quote spoke to me the most~:

Quote from: "joeactor""This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."
Polonius in Hamlet Act 1, Scene 3 by William Shakespeare

I dont think i can live a lie.

I just wish it hadn't taken me 10 years to work this out.

Many thanks

kkma.

Bummer that it worked out this way.  For what it's worth, I think you made the right decision, difficult as it may be.

Quote from: "kkma"Thanks for all of the responses.

Update: My girlfriend and i have decided to separate. It turns out that conversion and appeasing her family was going to be quite an ordeal. Apparently the father wanted me to go on a 2 year conversion course!!! F#*k that! I thought it would be one week at the most. Also my girlfriend has promised to move back closer to her family and i cannot deal with the lies and deceit that would come about from this arrangement. She was not prepared to risk the exclusion of her family and ultimately she was not prepared to marry a non-muslim (even though she would know in my heart that i am not, should i have converted, as would the all powerful Allah! )  

Finally i think  joeactor's quote spoke to me the most~:

Quote from: "joeactor""This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."
Polonius in Hamlet Act 1, Scene 3 by William Shakespeare

I dont think i can live a lie.

I just wish it hadn't taken me 10 years to work this out.

Many thanks

kkma.

That is tough, but as Thump said, you've made the right decision. Especially as the father would have made you sit through a two year ordeal of insanity.

Plenty of other fish, and all that.

I am deeply saddened by this.  I am very sorry this did not work out for you.

If this isn't a case for the insanity of organized religion...I don't know what is.
I am deeply sorry that things didn't work out.  I hope you can find a mate who loves you for you in the near future.

Very sad indeed - sorry you're going through this.
Not what you need to hear now, but in the long run it's probably best to find out now.
Take care and let us know how you're doing...

What a stupid situation, I think she'll regret it.
Good luck.