Happy Atheist Forum

What scripture is it that says god gave man free will?

Thanks!

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_ ... _will.html (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/free_will.html)
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/free.html (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/free.html)

The scale leans toward not giving free will, if one reads all the info presented in the bible.

None that I know of explicitly, but James does hint at it (as do a few others).

Jam 1:13     Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
Jam 1:14    But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Jam 1:15    Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Much appreciated...  lol

I keep them bookmarked for free will arguments  

I can't stand the Christian philosophers who say that it's an amazing "paradox" that Christianity teaches them that they have both freewill and a predetermined destiny. There's a fine line between a paradox and a contradiction.

Quote from: "Sophus"I can't stand the Christian philosophers who say that it's an amazing "paradox" that Christianity teaches them that they have both freewill and a predetermined destiny. There's a fine line between a paradox and a contradiction.

Yes, and they've crossed it with the argument in this case.

PREDESTINATION:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Ephensians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

I Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

I Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

FREE WILL:

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Predestination wins, in my opinion. There are of course many more verses than these but most of them are very ambiguous. Most free will verses seem to be about accepting Jesus as your savior and being saved. Free will is just an excuse to explain evil. This is just another way to rationalize. Christianity solves its problem of evil by saying that God has decided, despite his benevolence, to let humans suffer and hang themselves if they so choose, by giving them free will. If God is believed to be omniscient then he already knows everything and there would be no reason for free will. The premise that god is omniscient means that there is nothing he doesn’t know. A person cannot make a decision god didn’t know he would make therefore all decisions are known in advance as well as the decision they would ultimately make, thus that person would have no free will at all, since its all predetermined in god's divine plan. Therefore: if god is omniscient then man has no free will; if man has free will then god is not omniscient. The Predestination vs. Free Will argument becomes very tedious and ludicrous to me.

Quote from: "lundberg500"If God is believed to be omniscient then he already knows everything and there would be no reason for free will. The premise that god is omniscient means that there is nothing he doesn’t know. A person cannot make a decision god didn’t know he would make therefore all decisions are known in advance as well as the decision they would ultimately make, thus that person would have no free will at all, since its all predetermined in god's divine plan. Therefore: if god is omniscient then man has no free will; if man has free will then god is not omniscient. The Predestination vs. Free Will argument becomes very tedious and ludicrous to me.

Additionally, assuming omnipotence, if man did have free will he would not be able to change a "god's plan", except by that omnipotent god's sufferance. This too means that there can be no free will.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"Jam 1:15    Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

So...basically, when you have a kid out of wedlock, the kid will kill people?

There are two types of Christians: Those who read the Bible basically like a manual or history book (EOC, CC..), and Sola-Scriptura (bible thumpers, "If it ain't in the bible it ain't true!"). The bible thumpers didn't come around until about 2,000 years after the original Church, and when they did separate they started taking out the parts they didn't like, which led them to read just the parts of the Bible that they felt were meant to be read literally. The first kind still view the Bible as sacred, but are probably not going to spend as much time on the actual wording as they will on what the whole message was.

Not all Christians are going to argue the same way depending on if they're Sola Scripura or not, so you've got to decide what kind of athiest you are; Sola Scriptura or not. (For example, an athiest once told me that I was wrong because the Bible said the world was a snowglobe...he was a Sola Scriptura athiest. If he weren't, he would have known that he was citing the mis-translated "flat-earth Bible", which is only used by extreme-Fundamentalists. It was hard for me to take him seriously because what he was saying just didn't apply to me anyways.)

:D

Quote from: "Being_Brave"There are two types of Christians: Those who read the Bible basically like a manual or history book (EOC, CC..), and Sola-Scriptura (bible thumpers, "If it ain't in the bible it ain't true!"). The bible thumpers didn't come around until about 2,000 years after the original Church, and when they did separate they started taking out the parts they didn't like, which led them to read just the parts of the Bible that they felt were meant to be read literally. The first kind still view the Bible as sacred, but are probably not going to spend as much time on the actual wording as they will on what the whole message was.

I hate to break the news to you but the Bible has been edited and revised since it was first compiled.  This is not a new phenomenon.

QuoteNot all Christians are going to argue the same way depending on if they're Sola Scripura or not, so you've got to decide what kind of athiest you are; Sola Scriptura or not. (For example, an athiest once told me that I was wrong because the Bible said the world was a snowglobe...he was a Sola Scriptura athiest. If he weren't, he would have known that he was citing the mis-translated "flat-earth Bible", which is only used by extreme-Fundamentalists. It was hard for me to take him seriously because what he was saying just didn't apply to me anyways.)

This is a false equivocation.  Simply because you break down believers into two types, it doesn't follow that non-believers must also be so divided.  There are some who specialize in taking apart holy texts, some who tilt at philosophical arguments, or the many who simply pay very little attention to either avenue of "evidence."  Because of the many different types of believers I see, I make it a point to be able to answer their arguments in their terms, and so to you, I would appear to be their mirror-image, but this would be wrong.

An atheist is simply one who rejects god(s).

Quote:) I know, "None of you Christians are right, so it doesn't matter what Bible the quote comes from!", but I'm telling ya the best way to talk to a Christian without them immediately shutting you out is to figure out what kind you're talking to.

Indeed, thus my point above.

Quote..that's my 12 cents... Good luck with civil conversations!  

Luck plays less of a role than good will.

I don't mind that you don't believe in it, it just might be helpful next time you're trying to talk to a person of faith to remember that not all of them are going to think alike. The arguments you bring to a Sola-Scriptura Christian will not be the same that hold water when talking to one who is not.  When an athiest who only knows how to break down scripture tries to explain how scripture can't be taken literally, it's a mute point and they won't get very far with someone like me. If an athiest can explain how the morals or events that the religion teaches is wrong, then they've got my ear...I may not change my mind, but at least then there can be some dialogue.

Just trying to help, no need for the breakdown  

Quote from: "Being_Brave"When an athiest who only knows how to break down scripture tries to explain how scripture can't be taken literally, it's a mute point and they won't get very far with someone like me.

Right then....so what type of Christian are you?

QuoteIf an athiest can explain how the morals or events that the religion teaches is wrong, then they've got my ear...I may not change my mind, but at least then there can be some dialogue.

What morals or events? Biblical? Extra biblical?

Welcome to HAF...*wavin*

Thanks for the welcome! :D

Quote from: "Being_Brave"Thanks for the welcome!

The pleasure was all mine...*grinnin*

Thanks for a well mannered and well thought out reply. My debate style as most will tell you is somewhat aggressive and at times rather caustic (sometimes I wonder why I haven't been banned yet). So, because your post, as it is, I'm trying a softer approach (and believe me, it's difficult).
I'm going to nitpick just one statement of yours instead of making a huge point-by-point post.

QuoteBasically we know it's okay to believe in ideas that aren't in the Bible. The CC doesn't oppose evolution like the sola-scriptura do, for example, and we practice traditions passed down through generations and adapt to modern more's. Some people claim to be Christian but if they took the time to read what is written, in stead of getting wrapped up in hype...

What makes you think that Catholicism is better than any other sect of Christianity?  Either the Bible is the word of God or it isn't. As far as traditions go:
Micah 6:16: You have observed the statutes of Omri and all the practices of Ahab's house, and you have followed their traditions. Therefore I will give you over to ruin and your people to derision; you will bear the scorn of the nations. "
Mark 7:4: When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.
Mark 7:8: You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
Mark 7:9: And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
Galatians 1:14: I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
The scripture quoted above (in context) deals with following traditions of men and not of God. How do you reconcile this with all the man made traditions the CC follows especially having said other sects don't read their bibles and have "hype"?
Do you not see the irony of your statement?

Quote from: "Being_Brave"When an athiest who only knows how to break down scripture tries to explain how scripture can't be taken literally, it's a mute point and they won't get very far with someone like me. If an athiest can explain how the morals or events that the religion teaches is wrong, then they've got my ear...I may not change my mind, but at least then there can be some dialogue.

Just trying to help, no need for the breakdown  

OK.  I followed you from your Introductions thread.

The problem is this.  You have no idea what an atheist is.  Really, none whatsoever.  At all.  If you have any desire to know what an atheist is, then you can ask about it, but there is no evidence that you do.  At all.

You haven't in your short tenure distinguished yourself from the hordes of theists who want all atheists to pay attention to your distinctions but who have no desire to get even a general grasp of the term "atheist."

BB,
I believe you are insinuating that Atheists don't have morals, and also fail at reading comprehension.  Your first mistake is roping Atheists together.  I've found over time that the only two things that Atheists tend to have in common is a lack of belief in the supernatural, and a love of science.  
Men wrote the bible...therefore your moral standards came from man.  We are men/women too.  
However, if you read the hundreds of passages from your book that have been combed over on this very forum, you will notice that the bible is not full of wisdom and grace.  There is some pretty ugly shit in that book.

To be fair, I've met plenty of atheists who didn't believe in god(s) but were suckered in by other woo.  Atheism is not a "get out of irrationality free" card.  To assert otherwise is simply another stereotype about atheists.  The fact that it is flattering causes it to remain largely unquestioned.

Quote from: "DropLogic"BB,
I believe you are insinuating that Atheists don't have morals, and also fail at reading comprehension.  Your first mistake is roping Atheists together.  I've found over time that the only two things that Atheists tend to have in common is a lack of belief in the supernatural, and a love of science.  
Men wrote the bible...therefore your moral standards came from man.  We are men/women too.  
However, if you read the hundreds of passages from your book that have been combed over on this very forum, you will notice that the bible is not full of wisdom and grace.  There is some pretty ugly shit in that book.

I don't mean to say Athiests don't have morals. That's not what I was getting at, at all. My statement was about how Christians use biblical stories and events to teach morals, and that it would take proving those things wrong to get someone to change their mind. It wasn't implying that you had different or poor morals. You guys are correct, I don't know what goes on in an Athiest's mind, that's why I'm here. At one point in my life I seriously doubted faith, but it's because I couldn't wrap my mind around atheism that I'm not athiest....so while I understand the basic idea of Atheist=no God, I really can't immagine how life is without God to turn to. It doesn't mean I think poorly of Athiests, I just don't understand the lifestyle. I don't know how I fail at reading comprehension, but I'm really trying to learn as much as I can. Sorry I came off rude, I really wasn't meaning to.

Quote from: "epepke"

Quote from: "Being_Brave"When an athiest who only knows how to break down scripture tries to explain how scripture can't be taken literally, it's a mute point and they won't get very far with someone like me. If an athiest can explain how the morals or events that the religion teaches is wrong, then they've got my ear...I may not change my mind, but at least then there can be some dialogue.

Just trying to help, no need for the breakdown  :verysad:

Well, I could explain why many Biblical lessons are wrong, but to what purpose?  That no more explains my atheism than my dislike of hip-hop makes me a blues guitarist.

Quote from: "Being_Brave"The quote above is the honest truth when an atheist starts referring to scripture to a theist. You may be speaking to one who already knows that the verse can't be taken literally. In that case an atheist could discuss what the story behind it is saying, and maybe even talk about how the event could not historically happened.

Well, when you have several different so called Christians claiming on thing or another about a piece of scripture, and one or two say it can't be taken literally, how is one to know WHAT IS to be taken literally? God didn't write in the foreword of the Bible that parts are allegory or litteral.

Quote from: "Being_Brave"I really can't immagine how life is without God to turn to.

It's exactly the same, except without all the wishful thinking.

Quote from: "Being_Brave"

Quote from: "DropLogic"BB,
I believe you are insinuating that Atheists don't have morals, and also fail at reading comprehension.  Your first mistake is roping Atheists together.  I've found over time that the only two things that Atheists tend to have in common is a lack of belief in the supernatural, and a love of science.  
Men wrote the bible...therefore your moral standards came from man.  We are men/women too.  
However, if you read the hundreds of passages from your book that have been combed over on this very forum, you will notice that the bible is not full of wisdom and grace.  There is some pretty ugly shit in that book.

I don't mean to say Athiests don't have morals. That's not what I was getting at, at all. My statement was about how Christians use biblical stories and events to teach morals, and that it would take proving those things wrong to get someone to change their mind. It wasn't implying that you had different or poor morals. You guys are correct, I don't know what goes on in an Athiest's mind, that's why I'm here. At one point in my life I seriously doubted faith, but it's because I couldn't wrap my mind around atheism that I'm not athiest....so while I understand the basic idea of Atheist=no God, I really can't immagine how life is without God to turn to. It doesn't mean I think poorly of Athiests, I just don't understand the lifestyle. I don't know how I fail at reading comprehension, but I'm really trying to learn as much as I can. Sorry I came off rude, I really wasn't meaning to.

I worded that incorrectly, sorry for the confusion.  I meant that you were insinuating that Atheists have poor reading comprehension.
When you turn to god...you realize you're just talking to yourself right?  I do it all the time too...weigh decisions and consequences in my head.  We all have an internal voice.
Logic and rationality go on in an Atheists mind.

Another argument is that of omniscience. Being omniscient means that you know everything. Including knowledge of future events. And if the future is set in stone, then there can be no free will.

If you find yourself getting stuck with this argument it's because it's like the "does god exist?" argument. With present technology, there's no way to go back in time and do it again just to see if you actually would've done something different. So there's no way to "prove" or "disprove" this one.

Personally, I don't think free will exists.