Happy Atheist Forum

...for your hard work? I understand that you believe in something higher than yourself, and I'm not about to take that away from you, but you've worked too hard to give the credit to something that, to my personal understanding, probably doesn't exist. Even if he does exist, I don't think he did anything that great anyway. As an Atheist, the way I see it is like this.

If God is so great, why let this happen anyway? I have had a few responses to this.

1) He gave us free will. OK, wonderful, we have free will, unless our free will is tossed aside by someone else for their enjoyment.

2) It was a test. Any being that would test a living human with this kind of pain, I do not want to exist anyway.

3) He does not give you anything you can't handle. Sorry, I wake up every morning feeling I can't handle this. The fact that I do, I feel, says more about me personally, than anything else.

I live next to a church, I see news everyday about religion's fight to remove my rights, or to keep me from attaining my rights because I happen to be gay. I have been told by church officials that I need to forgive my brother. Fuck. That. Shit. No, I am an Atheist, I am Anti-Theist, and while I may not be entirely happy with my life as I see it, I am damned happy with the result of my struggles, and God gets no credit in that.

Thanks for listening to my little rant.

here ya go.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.portlandmercury.com%2Fimages%2Fblogimages%2F2010%2F09%2F20%2F1285005638-bear_hug.jpg&hash=f07e251b088aa5eb849cdfb8ef3eaa9f8251e754)

It occurs to me also that if we have free will, then assigning credit to any god(s) is fallacious.

The credibility of "God's help" is actually the starting point where I began to doubt its existence   .

It came to me one day that since I cannot sense "god" that crediting either god or myself is equally reasonable.  That was a good-sized step, for me, not that I exclude other causes for events in my life.  But to give an invisible entity the credit struck me as silly, as it still does.

Most of the Christians I know think atheists are arrogant for not giving God credit for anything. I think it's disrespectful of them to give God credit for everything. Like when the last Chile miner was rescued today someone said "Praise God!" What about the people who worked their ass off to save them? At the dinner table: "Thank you for this meal, Lord." What about the person who cooked and prepared it? And if you ever have an impressive skill they say, "you have a God given gift." No actually, I worked really hard for years and years to be able to do what I do. But thanks for the "compliment".

Quote from: "Sophus"Most of the Christians I know think atheists are arrogant for not giving God credit for anything. I think it's disrespectful of them to give God credit for everything. Like when the last Chile miner was rescued today someone said "Praise God!" What about the people who worked their ass off to save them? At the dinner table: "Thank you for this meal, Lord." What about the person who cooked and prepared it? And if you ever have an impressive skill they say, "you have a God given gift." No actually, I worked really hard for years and years to be able to do what I do. But thanks for the "compliment".

Indeed.  False modesty is the worst sort.

if there was a god,

why should the christians give him (good) credit.

he's the one always asking them for money.  10 percent I believe.

The pastor I know thinks since God is suppose to be credited with everything we have he is also the owner of all those things, so that when he "asks" you to give something away you're not suppose to put a fight like "but - but - I worked for that." Nope, it's his. It's interesting that he also thinks Capitalism is all that and a bad of chips yet Marxist Communism is the devil.

Quotehe is also the owner of all those things

so this nigga wants ten percent of what's already his?

and at the same time, wants you to give it to somebody else......... but it's still his?

the company that published the bible should have hired better editors.

there's major continuity issues.

I think Diablo Cody and Martin Scorsese should collaborate on the new Bible.

Quote from: "Sophus"The pastor I know thinks since God is suppose to be credited with everything we have he is also the owner of all those things ....

It's a pity they don't explore the implications of this idea viz. ethical responsibility.

"God helps those who help themselves". I always heard this phrase as sarcastic, but I think a lot of people believe it.

They don't seem to see the stupidity there.

I've always wondered how people can ignore the reverse - God should be given credit for people being stupid or getting screwed.

I have one close friend that is very Christian.  He's always thanking God for various things.  I've kept my mouth shut in order to keep the relationship, but sometimes it's difficult.  The worst was when Hurricane Ike nearly hit his house.  He was evacuated up here to our place.  When he finally got the news that nothing was damaged, he clasped his hands, looked skyward and said "Thank you God - you are always looking out for me."  Ugh.  i wanted to ask if God also got credit for killing other people in the storm.  Guess they were sinners...

Quote from: "madness"I've always wondered how people can ignore the reverse - God should be given credit for people being stupid or getting screwed.

I have one close friend that is very Christian.  He's always thanking God for various things.  I've kept my mouth shut in order to keep the relationship, but sometimes it's difficult.  The worst was when Hurricane Ike nearly hit his house.  He was evacuated up here to our place.  When he finally got the news that nothing was damaged, he clasped his hands, looked skyward and said "Thank you God - you are always looking out for me."  Ugh.  i wanted to ask if God also got credit for killing other people in the storm.  Guess they were sinners...

Apparently it's as simple as good=God, bad=Devil. Don't know how that factors into the whole omnipotence, omnipresence deal though. Or the fact that he would have allowed the Devil to start the hurricane (which he only permits from June 1st to November 30th).  

Quote from: "Sophus"Don't know how that factors into the whole omnipotence, omnipresence deal though.

It cannot.  Omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and evil are incompatible.

Quote from: "madness"I've always wondered how people can ignore the reverse - God should be given credit for people being stupid or getting screwed.

I have a very close friend that is VERY Christian. We used to work together, and he was telling me about something going on that really sucked, his car had lost it's timing belt and he didn't realize it and kept driving it in the middle of the summer. It overheated and basically fused the engine together.

I said "Man, those acts of God really stick it in and break it off don't they?" He's cool enough to laugh about that, but I wish I had the nads to tell that to so many people when they praise God for things someone else did/useless things/anything/everything.

I hate how the religious can be so fucking terrible to a person.

Breaking down ones character because their gay. Fuck anyone who treats another human like that.

Everything you've ever accomplished was due to your own ability, not because god let it happen. When a football player thanks god for letting him have a good game, he gives little to no gratitude to his thousands of hours of practice and training.

So what? God helps his score a T.D. but doesn't feed the millions of children in africa?

Oh Boy, thats a god I want to worship!  :hail:

Quote from: "tymygy"I hate how the religious can be so fucking terrible to a person.

Breaking down ones character because their gay. Fuck anyone who treats another human like that.

Everything you've ever accomplished was due to your own ability, not because god let it happen. When a football player thanks god for letting him have a good game, he gives little to no gratitude to his thousands of hours of practice and training.

So what? God helps his score a T.D. but doesn't feed the millions of children in africa?

Oh Boy, thats a god I want to worship!  :hail:

Next time I post something like this topic, I'm using this as a reference. As a NFL fan, this is something I hate to see. I want to see ONE FUCKING PLAYER say "Yea, God had nothing to do with this, I worked my ass off everyday this week, and it paid off." Too much to ask?

Quote from: "GAYtheist"

Quote from: "tymygy"I hate how the religious can be so fucking terrible to a person.

Breaking down ones character because their gay. Fuck anyone who treats another human like that.

Everything you've ever accomplished was due to your own ability, not because god let it happen. When a football player thanks god for letting him have a good game, he gives little to no gratitude to his thousands of hours of practice and training.

So what? God helps his score a T.D. but doesn't feed the millions of children in africa?

Oh Boy, thats a god I want to worship!  :hail:

Next time I post something like this topic, I'm using this as a reference. As a NFL fan, this is something I hate to see. I want to see ONE FUCKING PLAYER say "Yea, God had nothing to do with this, I worked my ass off everyday this week, and it paid off." Too much to ask?

 

They'd loose fans faster than you can say Gabourey Sidibe is overrated.

Quote from: "GAYtheist"

Quote from: "tymygy"I hate how the religious can be so fucking terrible to a person.

Breaking down ones character because their gay. Fuck anyone who treats another human like that.

Everything you've ever accomplished was due to your own ability, not because god let it happen. When a football player thanks god for letting him have a good game, he gives little to no gratitude to his thousands of hours of practice and training.

So what? God helps his score a T.D. but doesn't feed the millions of children in africa?

Oh Boy, thats a god I want to worship!  :hail:

Next time I post something like this topic, I'm using this as a reference. As a NFL fan, this is something I hate to see. I want to see ONE FUCKING PLAYER say "Yea, God had nothing to do with this, I worked my ass off everyday this week, and it paid off." Too much to ask?

Doubt it will happen anytime soon. How many atheist football players are there? I don't see a lot of them in sports.

Quote from: "Sophus"

Quote from: "GAYtheist"

Quote from: "tymygy"I hate how the religious can be so fucking terrible to a person.

Breaking down ones character because their gay. Fuck anyone who treats another human like that.

Everything you've ever accomplished was due to your own ability, not because god let it happen. When a football player thanks god for letting him have a good game, he gives little to no gratitude to his thousands of hours of practice and training.

So what? God helps his score a T.D. but doesn't feed the millions of children in africa?

Oh Boy, thats a god I want to worship!  :hail:

Next time I post something like this topic, I'm using this as a reference. As a NFL fan, this is something I hate to see. I want to see ONE FUCKING PLAYER say "Yea, God had nothing to do with this, I worked my ass off everyday this week, and it paid off." Too much to ask?

Doubt it will happen anytime soon. How many atheist football players are there? I don't see a lot of them in sports.

Agreed, I can't think of one.

Pat Tillman, but he was killed in Afghanistan.  Dumb atheist, he turned down a lucrative contract in order to serve his country.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Pat Tillman, but he was killed in Afghanistan.  Dumb atheist, he turned down a lucrative contract in order to serve his country.

[youtube:3oo7clh6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM9YnsB-oBo[/youtube:3oo7clh6]

This is old and has probably been discussed in the past.  It's incredible how fixated the media was on the fact that he MIGHT be an atheist...as if that made him less of a patriot.

Religious advocates like to cherrypick.

When good happens, it is the doing of God.
When good does not happen, it isn't God's fault.

Quote from: "Sophus"Most of the Christians I know think atheists are arrogant for not giving God credit for anything. I think it's disrespectful of them to give God credit for everything. Like when the last Chile miner was rescued today someone said "Praise God!" What about the people who worked their ass off to save them? At the dinner table: "Thank you for this meal, Lord." What about the person who cooked and prepared it? And if you ever have an impressive skill they say, "you have a God given gift." No actually, I worked really hard for years and years to be able to do what I do. But thanks for the "compliment".

In my view, thanking the Lord for a meal entails those that did work to prepare it for myself (and others if present). As you have mentioned it is more than just thanking the substance that lays before us. It could also present itself with gratitude and humility.; the fact that I have something to consume.

Also praising God for the rescue of the Chilean miners could imply all the efforts involved. Now whether their rescue was 'divinely' directed is another matter.

What's interesting to me, however, is if those miners were not saved. Are we still to praise God then?

Quote from: "Achronos"In my view, thanking the Lord for a meal entails those that did work to prepare it for myself (and others if present). As you have mentioned it is more than just thanking the substance that lays before us. It could also present itself with gratitude and humility.; the fact that I have something to consume.

Also praising God for the rescue of the Chilean miners could imply all the efforts involved. Now whether their rescue was 'divinely' directed is another matter.

What's interesting to me, however, is if those miners were not saved. Are we still to praise God then?

May I ask for clarification?  Are you saying that you thank the people present first, such as the hostess or whoever prepared the food and then thank God or are you saying that thanking God is something you do to stand in place of thanking the people who provided and served the meal?

I guess what I'm asking is, do you thank God for things instead of thanking the people responsible or in addition to thanking the people responsible aloud?

I always express my gratitude towards the hostess and I thank God for providing not only the food, but the people who have prepared it. For me I find it very important to show how appreciative you are, but more importantly that also means being sincere about it.

Achronos,

My problem with what you're saying is this.  "God" has no substance. You can't see him, touch him, hear him, taste him or smell him. You can feel the wind against your skin, smell the scent of a flower, taste the salt of a sea breeze...those are things we know exist. But instead of of saying something like "Those doctors are amazing, look at how long they worked to save my son's life!" People will say "Thank God  for saving my son's life." Or, as I stated previously from personal, and painful, experience, I have been told too many times that God would not give me something in my life that I could not handle. I hope, sincerely hope, that you have never been sexually assaulted, but being a survivor myself, I can tell you that the only reason I am here is that I had the strength in me. I have had it since forever, and no magic man in the sky did that for me. The free will argument is rediculous. Relgion never forces the "creator" to take responsibility for what has happened in the world, and if he does exist, and I go to be judged, I'll tell your god to take a long walk off a short peer and fuck himself raw.

Quote from: "GAYtheist"The free will argument is rediculous. Relgion never forces the "creator" to take responsibility for what has happened in the world, and if he does exist, and I go to be judged, I'll tell your god to take a long walk off a short peer and fuck himself raw.

I agree, 'god' really has it good.  He gets thanked every time something good happens and worshipped when ever something bad happens.  People pray, and even when their prayers don't get answered they say 'god has a plan'.  

And the whole free will concept is BS anyway.  We are given a choice but if we choose wrong we go burn in hell for eternity.... srsly???  That's sick.  If that was someone on earth doing that to people they would be called a sociopath.  So if god exists he must really enjoy watching people suffer.

Id be right there next to Gaytheist telling god to go do unholy things to himself  

Quote from: "Sophus"Most of the Christians I know think atheists are arrogant for not giving God credit for anything. I think it's disrespectful of them to give God credit for everything. Like when the last Chile miner was rescued today someone said "Praise God!" What about the people who worked their ass off to save them? At the dinner table: "Thank you for this meal, Lord." What about the person who cooked and prepared it? And if you ever have an impressive skill they say, "you have a God given gift." No actually, I worked really hard for years and years to be able to do what I do. But thanks for the "compliment".

  This reminds me of something Pope John Paul was said to have said after he was shot, operated upon and survived....he claimed that the bullet was directed by Our Lady (Mary) to only injure him, not kill him. No mention of the team of highly skilled surgeons who operated for 6 hours to save his life. Richard Dawkins replies pretty straightly as to why, if it really was divine intervention, why it wasn't guided to miss him altogether.

If people are going to thank God for rescuing the Chilean miners, why hasn't anyone asked the two obvious questions:

1. Why let them get trapped in the first place
2. Why take so damned long to rescue them

The Sago Mine disaster had people attributing the news of rescued miners to God's grace - but, oh wait, they had the news wrong, and most of the miners, tragically, did not survive. A quick google search turns up (in just the last month) fatal mine collapses in Rwanda, Ecuador, Poland and China.

Guess they didn't believe in God, huh.

Quote from: "Achronos"I always express my gratitude towards the hostess and I thank God for providing not only the food, but the people who have prepared it. For me I find it very important to show how appreciative you are, but more importantly that also means being sincere about it.

I prefer to thank my benefactors directly.  I think it means more to them, that way.

If God takes all of the credit for our accomplishment then shouldn't he take all the blame for our failures; Paradise has never looked so fallen.

Do people give credit to god as a way to, in effect, provide evidence to themselves of his existence? Such evidence is useless for anyone else, but is it a way to convince yourself that yes, there is God and he got me this job at Burger King and yes, there is Satan and he's the one that popped my tire? Lacking any objective evidence, giving god credit seems to be the inevitable path most theists would take.

I know many people with this attitude - and the problem is the age old 'correlation /= causation' argument. If they're gonna start attributing things to unseen entities, I'm going to start thanking the FSM or the celestial teapot for any good in my life.

Quote from: "Croaker"If people are going to thank God for rescuing the Chilean miners, why hasn't anyone asked the two obvious questions:

1. Why let them get trapped in the first place
2. Why take so damned long to rescue them

The Sago Mine disaster had people attributing the news of rescued miners to God's grace - but, oh wait, they had the news wrong, and most of the miners, tragically, did not survive. A quick google search turns up (in just the last month) fatal mine collapses in Rwanda, Ecuador, Poland and China.

Guess they didn't believe in God, huh.

That's how god works.  

Quote from: "Croaker"If people are going to thank God for rescuing the Chilean miners, why hasn't anyone asked the two obvious questions:

1. Why let them get trapped in the first place
2. Why take so damned long to rescue them

The Sago Mine disaster had people attributing the news of rescued miners to God's grace - but, oh wait, they had the news wrong, and most of the miners, tragically, did not survive. A quick google search turns up (in just the last month) fatal mine collapses in Rwanda, Ecuador, Poland and China.

Guess they didn't believe in God, huh.

God works in mysterious ways.

Don't question them.

Oh, crap, you're right, my bad.
 

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Pat Tillman, but he was killed in Afghanistan.  Dumb atheist, he turned down a lucrative contract in order to serve his country.

True I forgot about him. Here's another. (http://www.atheistmedia.com/2010/12/atheist-football-player.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+AtheistMedia+%28Atheist+Media%29&utm_content=Twitter)
 

Giving god credit has never caused me any problems.

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"Giving god credit has never caused me any problems.

Of course it won't, because you're likely to give him credit only for the good things that happen in your life. That requires you to ignore the bad things, though, since God, if he was omnipotent, could have prevented those things. You can't make the statement that God has a hand in your life, but only when things go nicely. If he did have a  hand in your life, nothing bad would happen. Since it's more than likely that you are not the recipient of excessively good luck (like everyone else in this world) the perception that God has anything to do in your life which would merit 'credit' is no more than that - a perception.

Quote from: "Croaker"

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"Giving god credit has never caused me any problems.

Of course it won't, because you're likely to give him credit only for the good things that happen in your life. That requires you to ignore the bad things, though, since God, if he was omnipotent, could have prevented those things. You can't make the statement that God has a hand in your life, but only when things go nicely. If he did have a  hand in your life, nothing bad would happen. Since it's more than likely that you are not the recipient of excessively good luck (like everyone else in this world) the perception that God has anything to do in your life which would merit 'credit' is no more than that - a perception.

Am I really likely to think that? What do you base that on?

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"

Quote from: "Croaker"

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"Giving god credit has never caused me any problems.

Of course it won't, because you're likely to give him credit only for the good things that happen in your life. That requires you to ignore the bad things, though, since God, if he was omnipotent, could have prevented those things. You can't make the statement that God has a hand in your life, but only when things go nicely. If he did have a  hand in your life, nothing bad would happen. Since it's more than likely that you are not the recipient of excessively good luck (like everyone else in this world) the perception that God has anything to do in your life which would merit 'credit' is no more than that - a perception.

Am I really likely to think that? What do you base that on?

Well, I guess I typecast you!  

Let's find out what you think, then. Please give me examples of things you would give God the credit for. Then, necessarily, what the inverse of those things would be, things you wouldn't give God the credit for. Thanking God for everything, however, is an acceptable answer.

But you might typecast me again. The evidence suggests that that's what you do. Is there any evidence that will convince me that you won't do it again?

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"But you might typecast me again. The evidence suggests that that's what you do. Is there any evidence that will convince me that you won't do it again?

Hey, I was just trying to figure out what you believe, since I apparently had it way wrong. If you don't want to share, that's fine.

If you're present on this board, then you obviously want a challenge to your beliefs. No one can challenge you if you don't share, and if you do share, but avoid thinking about the challenges, then your presence is moot.

Quote from: "Croaker"

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"But you might typecast me again. The evidence suggests that that's what you do. Is there any evidence that will convince me that you won't do it again?

Hey, I was just trying to figure out what you believe, since I apparently had it way wrong. If you don't want to share, that's fine.

If you're present on this board, then you obviously want a challenge to your beliefs. No one can challenge you if you don't share, and if you do share, but avoid thinking about the challenges, then your presence is moot.

I don't give god credit only for good things that happen.

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"

Quote from: "Croaker"

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"But you might typecast me again. The evidence suggests that that's what you do. Is there any evidence that will convince me that you won't do it again?

Hey, I was just trying to figure out what you believe, since I apparently had it way wrong. If you don't want to share, that's fine.

If you're present on this board, then you obviously want a challenge to your beliefs. No one can challenge you if you don't share, and if you do share, but avoid thinking about the challenges, then your presence is moot.

I don't give god credit only for good things that happen.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would mean that you credit him for the bad things as well then, right? Just trying to understand here.

The word "credit" is misleading. It implies that I like something. But certainly yes, everything that happens is down to god.

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"The word "credit" is misleading. It implies that I like something. But certainly yes, everything that happens is down to god.

Does this imply that you do not have free will then? Since everything that happens is because of god, are you merely living out the existence predetermined for you? Or is he a reactive god, more akin to a random function, that takes in data (how we react to his actions) and then outputs randomness via new events?

Quote from: "Croaker"

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"The word "credit" is misleading. It implies that I like something. But certainly yes, everything that happens is down to god.

Does this imply that you do not have free will then? Since everything that happens is because of god, are you merely living out the existence predetermined for you? Or is he a reactive god, more akin to a random function, that takes in data (how we react to his actions) and then outputs randomness via new events?

We have free will.

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"

Quote from: "Croaker"

Quote from: "Chandler M Bing"The word "credit" is misleading. It implies that I like something. But certainly yes, everything that happens is down to god.

Does this imply that you do not have free will then? Since everything that happens is because of god, are you merely living out the existence predetermined for you? Or is he a reactive god, more akin to a random function, that takes in data (how we react to his actions) and then outputs randomness via new events?

We have free will.

Does god allow the 'things you don't like' to happen to better improve you, to give you an opportunity to mature? Or does he do it because, by his definition, he has no choice but to do so?

The former.

Quote from: "GAYtheist"...for your hard work? I understand that you believe in something higher than yourself, and I'm not about to take that away from you, but you've worked too hard to give the credit to something that, to my personal understanding, probably doesn't exist. Even if he does exist, I don't think he did anything that great anyway. As an Atheist, the way I see it is like this.

If God is so great, why let this happen anyway? I have had a few responses to this.

1) He gave us free will. OK, wonderful, we have free will, unless our free will is tossed aside by someone else for their enjoyment.

2) It was a test. Any being that would test a living human with this kind of pain, I do not want to exist anyway.

3) He does not give you anything you can't handle. Sorry, I wake up every morning feeling I can't handle this. The fact that I do, I feel, says more about me personally, than anything else.

I live next to a church, I see news everyday about religion's fight to remove my rights, or to keep me from attaining my rights because I happen to be gay. I have been told by church officials that I need to forgive my brother. Fuck. That. Shit. No, I am an Atheist, I am Anti-Theist, and while I may not be entirely happy with my life as I see it, I am damned happy with the result of my struggles, and God gets no credit in that.

Thanks for listening to my little rant.

IMO..  The better reason given by theist for giving god credit is that it keeps them humble..  They are constantly in awe and reminded of the lack of control and understanding they have of this world..  and remind themselves of this by recognizing the infinite and vast amount of probablistic permutations that have to take place for a thing to work in their favor... and they hope for the best when it does not..  They ascribe purpose and meaning to such things which necessitates and organizer or "mind" to control it..  

I agree with them to some extent..  just not with the latter part..

In other words ...  emotionally there have been moments where I have recognized the vast amount of happenings in the world and am humbled by something going my way that I really wanted, desired or needed..  recognizing that things could have gone differently in spite of my interactions with others...  I am left feeling thankful... grateful in some way..  and perhaps because of the human need to anthropomorphize everything lol

Quote from: "Khalliqa"

Quote from: "GAYtheist"...for your hard work? I understand that you believe in something higher than yourself, and I'm not about to take that away from you, but you've worked too hard to give the credit to something that, to my personal understanding, probably doesn't exist. Even if he does exist, I don't think he did anything that great anyway. As an Atheist, the way I see it is like this.

If God is so great, why let this happen anyway? I have had a few responses to this.

1) He gave us free will. OK, wonderful, we have free will, unless our free will is tossed aside by someone else for their enjoyment.

2) It was a test. Any being that would test a living human with this kind of pain, I do not want to exist anyway.

3) He does not give you anything you can't handle. Sorry, I wake up every morning feeling I can't handle this. The fact that I do, I feel, says more about me personally, than anything else.

I live next to a church, I see news everyday about religion's fight to remove my rights, or to keep me from attaining my rights because I happen to be gay. I have been told by church officials that I need to forgive my brother. Fuck. That. Shit. No, I am an Atheist, I am Anti-Theist, and while I may not be entirely happy with my life as I see it, I am damned happy with the result of my struggles, and God gets no credit in that.

Thanks for listening to my little rant.

IMO..  The better reason given by theist for giving god credit is that it keeps them humble..  They are constantly in awe and reminded of the lack of control and understanding they have of this world..  and remind themselves of this by recognizing the infinite and vast amount of probablistic permutations that have to take place for a thing to work in their favor... and they hope for the best when it does not..  They ascribe purpose and meaning to such things which necessitates and organizer or "mind" to control it..  

I agree with them to some extent..  just not with the latter part..

In other words ...  emotionally there have been moments where I have recognized the vast amount of happenings in the world and am humbled by something going my way that I really wanted, desired or needed..  recognizing that things could have gone differently in spite of my interactions with others...  I am left feeling thankful... grateful in some way..  and perhaps because of the human need to anthropomorphize everything lol

The way I've viewed such events as the child being saved is nothing more than a flight of good luck. People love to tout miracles such as that, but then only credit their specific deity if the miracle-receiver shared their same belief. No one talks about 'bad' miracles - cases of really awful luck, like the story a few years back of a cop in Denver who got killed during a traffic stop, not by a car, but by a detached tire from a semi passing by. Just rolled him down. Now, if it had been a robber or some other 'bad guy', instead of a cop, then it might have become a 'good' miracle, but it goes to show that 'miracles' are all in the eye of the beholder.

Quote from: "Khalliqa"

Quote from: "GAYtheist"...for your hard work? I understand that you believe in something higher than yourself, and I'm not about to take that away from you, but you've worked too hard to give the credit to something that, to my personal understanding, probably doesn't exist. Even if he does exist, I don't think he did anything that great anyway. As an Atheist, the way I see it is like this.

If God is so great, why let this happen anyway? I have had a few responses to this.

1) He gave us free will. OK, wonderful, we have free will, unless our free will is tossed aside by someone else for their enjoyment.

2) It was a test. Any being that would test a living human with this kind of pain, I do not want to exist anyway.

3) He does not give you anything you can't handle. Sorry, I wake up every morning feeling I can't handle this. The fact that I do, I feel, says more about me personally, than anything else.

I live next to a church, I see news everyday about religion's fight to remove my rights, or to keep me from attaining my rights because I happen to be gay. I have been told by church officials that I need to forgive my brother. Fuck. That. Shit. No, I am an Atheist, I am Anti-Theist, and while I may not be entirely happy with my life as I see it, I am damned happy with the result of my struggles, and God gets no credit in that.

Thanks for listening to my little rant.

IMO..  The better reason given by theist for giving god credit is that it keeps them humble..  They are constantly in awe and reminded of the lack of control and understanding they have of this world..  and remind themselves of this by recognizing the infinite and vast amount of probablistic permutations that have to take place for a thing to work in their favor... and they hope for the best when it does not..  They ascribe purpose and meaning to such things which necessitates and organizer or "mind" to control it..  

I agree with them to some extent..  just not with the latter part..

In other words ...  emotionally there have been moments where I have recognized the vast amount of happenings in the world and am humbled by something going my way that I really wanted, desired or needed..  recognizing that things could have gone differently in spite of my interactions with others...  I am left feeling thankful... grateful in some way..  and perhaps because of the human need to anthropomorphize everything lol

It is either luck or hard work of a person or persons that get the job done.

So a friend of mine just posted on FaceBook:

QuoteI need everyone's help!!! Please pray for my grandfather. He has cancer in his back and another spot. He is one of the best people in the world so please pray!!! Thanks!

And while I feel really bad for her that her family is going through this, I can't help but think about the message in her plea. Her grandfather is such a good person, but has has developed cancer. Did God give him cancer? If he had won the lottery, it would have been a reward from God for being a good person. They would have thanked God for the gift.

But her grandfather didn't win the lottery. He got cancer. So the way to remedy this is to get as many people as possible to ask God to cure him. Does God not take into account that the grandfather was a good man whose good deeds are worthy of a healthy body? Or does this man's life balance on the results of a sort of American Idol type popularity contest where whichever sick person gets the most call-ins gets to stick around for another week? If he had nobody to pray for him, would his prospects be any different?

If he succumbs to the cancer, will they say it was just his time to go and that God had bigger plans than we mortals can comprehend? If he overcomes it, will they thank the doctors who have dedicated their lives to saving others' lives? Or will they just give all the credit to God, since after all, the grandfather was a good person?

Quote from: "Khalliqa"IMO..  The better reason given by theist for giving god credit is that it keeps them humble..  They are constantly in awe and reminded of the lack of control and understanding they have of this world..  and remind themselves of this by recognizing the infinite and vast amount of probablistic permutations that have to take place for a thing to work in their favor... and they hope for the best when it does not..  They ascribe purpose and meaning to such things which necessitates and organizer or "mind" to control it..  

I agree with them to some extent..  just not with the latter part..

In other words ...  emotionally there have been moments where I have recognized the vast amount of happenings in the world and am humbled by something going my way that I really wanted, desired or needed..  recognizing that things could have gone differently in spite of my interactions with others...  I am left feeling thankful... grateful in some way..  and perhaps because of the human need to anthropomorphize everything lol

That's what I would call "luck" and to me luck (good and bad) does exist. I would consider myself a very lucky person in general, and believe me, I'm grateful for some of the things that have come my way.    But credit where credit's due. I don't take credit for the lucky and unlucky things that are beyond my control, but mingled in there are the things that I do take personal credit for.
Giving a god credit when outcomes based on skill and hard work are lucky is ridiculous, IMO.

Quote from: "februarystars"And while I feel really bad for her that her family is going through this, I can't help but think about the message in her plea. Her grandfather is such a good person, but has has developed cancer. Did God give him cancer? If he had won the lottery, it would have been a reward from God for being a good person. They would have thanked God for the gift.

But her grandfather didn't win the lottery. He got cancer. So the way to remedy this is to get as many people as possible to ask God to cure him. Does God not take into account that the grandfather was a good man whose good deeds are worthy of a healthy body? Or does this man's life balance on the results of a sort of American Idol type popularity contest where whichever sick person gets the most call-ins gets to stick around for another week? If he had nobody to pray for him, would his prospects be any different?

If he succumbs to the cancer, will they say it was just his time to go and that God had bigger plans than we mortals can comprehend? If he overcomes it, will they thank the doctors who have dedicated their lives to saving others' lives? Or will they just give all the credit to God, since after all, the grandfather was a good person?

In those cases it has little to do with any theological aspects (the problem of evil and suffering, etc), but more about trying to control the uncontrollable through negotiation (praying).

Quote from: "xSilverPhinx"In those cases it has little to do with any theological aspects (the problem of evil and suffering, etc), but more about trying to control the uncontrollable through negotiation (praying).

I hope I didn't come across as cold and unsympathetic. It breaks my heart to think about the helplessness one feels when a family member or close friend is in danger of pain or death. I know people really want to do anything they can to help the situation, and when there's nothing physical they can do, they often resort to prayer, and I can see how it comforts them.

It's just the idea of asking other people to pray on their behalf that makes me wonder what people really think about God's character. Children in Christian environments are often taught from an early age that God sees everything you do, hears everything you say, and even knows everything you think, all day every day. In this moment of helpless panic, do they wonder if maybe God isn't listening as intently as they might have thought, or even worse, that he hears them but needs a bit more convincing before he decides whether or not to act? If the desired outcome doesn't pan out, do they think God considered their plea, but decided to act otherwise, or do they think they just didn't pray hard enough and God simply didn't hear? I guess everybody interprets the situation differently.

Even when I was religious, I never felt close to God, so I definitely just don't get it. I never asked him for anything, and so I've never had to thank him for anything. 'Nuff said.

Quote from: "februarystars"I hope I didn't come across as cold and unsympathetic. It breaks my heart to think about the helplessness one feels when a family member or close friend is in danger of pain or death. I know people really want to do anything they can to help the situation, and when there's nothing physical they can do, they often resort to prayer, and I can see how it comforts them.

It's just the idea of asking other people to pray on their behalf that makes me wonder what people really think about God's character. Children in Christian environments are often taught from an early age that God sees everything you do, hears everything you say, and even knows everything you think, all day every day. In this moment of helpless panic, do they wonder if maybe God isn't listening as intently as they might have thought, or even worse, that he hears them but needs a bit more convincing before he decides whether or not to act? If the desired outcome doesn't pan out, do they think God considered their plea, but decided to act otherwise, or do they think they just didn't pray hard enough and God simply didn't hear? I guess everybody interprets the situation differently.

Even when I was religious, I never felt close to God, so I definitely just don't get it. I never asked him for anything, and so I've never had to thank him for anything. 'Nuff said. :cool:

The way I see it, god's character doesn't matter much in that situation, it's the action that people are after, and action can maybe be transformed into currency (many people praying for the same effect). And yes, people will rationalise and find an answer, whatever the outcome - as many different answers for the same effect as there are people looking for an answer.

I do know how despair can bring out those kinds of things in people, and I'm not judging them for trying to negotiate with reality/god, I just wouldn't pray if someone asked me to because I know it's pointless.

I'm going to go off on a tangent here but I think that theological speculations on the nature of god are extremely shallow. People trying to reconcile their preconceived notions of what reality should be with what it actually is looks so misdirected, mundane and in the end, futile.

You give credit to God, so the seed of ego cannot be planted in you.
Yes, we do have free will, that's true.

But...let me tell you once again the story of the birds

There were a few birds, and they were unhappy. Because the ants had their queen, the bees had their queen, the lions had their king..etc
So they wanted to find their king too, and it happened to be the Phoenix.
So they all went on a long journey, a journey they could only make as a group.

They flew in a V-formation, the one in front had to drag them all (aerodynamic), they regurlary changed position.
So it was everybody's turn to fly in front position. This is the only way they could reach the Phoenix.

Once they reached the Phoenix, the Phoenix asked them: Who made it possible to come on a journey here?
All of the birds answered at the same: I made it possible. Not a single one of them said 'We' made it possible.

So when you achieve something. You don't say 'I did this'. Because this will stimulate the ego that's in you. "Look how good I am, I don't need God! I did this, not God!"
You achieved it, because of other human beings. In the first place it should be always 'We did this'. "I'  is very wrong in my opinion...

Quote from: "xSilverPhinx"In those cases it has little to do with any theological aspects (the problem of evil and suffering, etc), but more about trying to control the uncontrollable through negotiation (praying).

The problem of evil? It's rather easy too explain. "Evil and suffering" is neccesary.
If we just open your eyes, it's very rational (I know you people love the word 'rational')

Quote from: "xSilverPhinx"it reminds me of Skinner's superstitious pidgeons: A pidgeon was conditioned in a machine that would release treats at random intervals by falsely associating some of it's own actions with what made the treat appear. The pidgeons actions had no effect on the machine. When the machine was shut down and treats (a response) were denied, the conditioned pidgeon developed superstitious behavior, as in ritualized actions that it believed caused an effect on the indifferent machine.

This is very interesting, it made me think from a different perspective with regards to theism and atheism.
Maybe the theists refuse to give up, refuse to accept that there are things that are out of their control. Having a belief in an all powerful god whom can love you and be on your side. One that you can appeal to through prayer and being a "good" person. Maybe this is a way of manipulating the world in one's favour. The better the person you are the more appealing your requests are to your god, the more luck, opportunities or blessings you will receive. This may give the appearance that you are in control even of the things that seem to be outside your influence. God can do anything. When good things happen you can justify it as a blessing from god because you have earned it as a deserving and loyal follower. When bad things happen, it is simply because you can't expect god to be at your beck and call. Maybe it is part of god's bigger plan for you, a lesson you must go through to acheive the results that god wants.

Atheists on the other hand accept that which is out of their control and would deem favourable events as simply chance given the laws of probability. If you have read Martin Seligman's book then maybe you could perceive this as pessimistic behaviour.

Obviously both theists and atheists would deem themselves as being realists.

I've never really thought of theistic world view of being optimistic before, but this has given me food for thought.

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "xSilverPhinx"In those cases it has little to do with any theological aspects (the problem of evil and suffering, etc), but more about trying to control the uncontrollable through negotiation (praying).

The problem of evil? It's rather easy too explain. "Evil and suffering" is neccesary.
If we just open your eyes, it's very rational (I know you people love the word 'rational')

The things that cause suffering such as pain are important biological heritages, those exist for a reason and are necessary. We give the result that is suffering a meaning, but I don't know what you mean by 'suffering is necessary' and in what sense exactly. As for evil, it gets a little more complicated with that...

I myself don't see cancer as an evil. It's a natural occurence: a cell breaks, starts to multiply uncontrollably, spreads and starts to multiply uncontrollably and starts to compromise the whole body and therefore a person's life. Is it necessary? No, it just happens.

The girl posted a request that people pray for her grandfather who has cancer and added that he's a good person (she reached a conclusion that he was undeserving of suffering because he is a good person). I wrote that to show that within the context of an omnibenevolent and omnipotent god who for some reason won't or can't answer a prayer to perform a good deed (heal the grandfather or stop his suffering), that the nature of their gods is the last thing on a person's mind who's in that situation such as februrarystars described. Her request is sort of at odds with the widely accepted view (assuming she's among them) that Christians hold which is that their god is an omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient god. The belief sort of temporarily breaks down, is further compartmentalised (those three characteristics existing in one being are already incompatible and mutually exclusive) or pushed to secondary plane to handle that situation.

One could say that if a person dies after all those prayers, and thus ends their suffering, that the prayers have been answered in a different way...but usually people don't pray to an omnibenevolent god for somebody's death, calling it 'good' wish. Is an omnibenevolent god being good to the distressed person praying? People who believe that their god is all good will tend to not want to interpret a death as an evil outcome, they'll resort to 'god works in mysterious ways' before doing that. In fact, there isn't any room for evil in a reality where god is all good, is everywhere and knows everything, including the 'evils' that go on. But 'evils' do go on, and christians fail miserably at trying to explain why. Free will to choose the 'right path' is incompatible with an omiscient and omnibenevolent god (who wants people to go to heaven and not suffer in hell but already knows whether they will or not).  

I don't know about your beliefs precisley (and even among christians these things differ, though they usually do compartmentalise and don't see the thing as a whole and why it is incompatible).

(It's late - or should I say early - and so if this is a wall of incoherent text, I'll look into it later)

Quote from: "xSilverPhinx"

Quote from: "iSok"

Quote from: "xSilverPhinx"In those cases it has little to do with any theological aspects (the problem of evil and suffering, etc), but more about trying to control the uncontrollable through negotiation (praying).

The problem of evil? It's rather easy too explain. "Evil and suffering" is neccesary.
If we just open your eyes, it's very rational (I know you people love the word 'rational')

The things that cause suffering such as pain are important biological heritages, those exist for a reason and are necessary. We give the result that is suffering a meaning, but I don't know what you mean by 'suffering is necessary' and in what sense exactly. As for evil, it gets a little more complicated with that...

I myself don't see cancer as an evil. It's a natural occurence: a cell breaks, starts to multiply uncontrollably, spreads and starts to multiply uncontrollably and starts to compromise the whole body and therefore a person's life. Is it necessary? No, it just happens.

The girl posted a request that people pray for her grandfather who has cancer and added that he's a good person (she reached a conclusion that he was undeserving of suffering because he is a good person). I wrote that to show that within the context of an omnibenevolent and omnipotent god who for some reason won't or can't answer a prayer to perform a good deed (heal the grandfather or stop his suffering), that the nature of their gods is the last thing on a person's mind who's in that situation such as februrarystars described. Her request is sort of at odds with the widely accepted view (assuming she's among them) that Christians hold which is that their god is an omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient god. The belief sort of temporarily breaks down, is further compartmentalised (those three characteristics existing in one being are already incompatible and mutually exclusive) or pushed to secondary plane to handle that situation.

One could say that if a person dies after all those prayers, and thus ends their suffering, that the prayers have been answered in a different way...but usually people don't pray to an omnibenevolent god for somebody's death, calling it 'good' wish. Is an omnibenevolent god being good to the distressed person praying? People who believe that their god is all good will tend to not want to interpret a death as an evil outcome, they'll resort to 'god works in mysterious ways' before doing that. In fact, there isn't any room for evil in a reality where god is all good, is everywhere and knows everything, including the 'evils' that go on. But 'evils' do go on, and christians fail miserably at trying to explain why. Free will to choose the 'right path' is incompatible with an omiscient and omnibenevolent god (who wants people to go to heaven and not suffer in hell but already knows whether they will or not).  

I don't know about your beliefs precisley (and even among christians these things differ, though they usually do compartmentalise and don't see the thing as a whole and why it is incompatible).

(It's late - or should I say early - and so if this is a wall of incoherent text, I'll look into it later)

Thank you for your reply, it's quite clear.

Evil is quite hard to define. 'Good' and 'Evil' are not absolutes within our reality.
For example cancer, I do see it as evil. The absence of knowledge, the mysteries of life..all are a form of evil.
Just like ignorance, ego, selfish behaviour, violence, illegal wars are also a form of evil.
I think the world is shrouded in evil, and good only exists within our hearts.
I hope I can explain this all, also why the girl wanted someone to pray for her grandfather.

But first let me ask this question for the people here:

What makes you happy? What is the source of your happiness? I hope some of you can define it, it's quite hard I understand.
(I hope you don't say: The new Philips Ambilight 3d 54 inch LED flatscreen)

Quote from: "iSok"What makes you happy? What is the source of your happiness? I hope some of you can define it, it's quite hard I understand.
(I hope you don't say: The new Philips Ambilight 3d 54 inch LED flatscreen)

I agree with Edmund Dantes in Alexandre Dumas' The Count of Monte Cristo, "There is neither happiness nor misery in the world; there is only the comparison of one state with another, nothing more. He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness."

In my case, I haven't exactly had the greatest grief, so I don't feel I'm capable of the greatest heights of happiness.  However, I do believe that I'm more often as happy as I'm capable of than in any other state.  I spend most of my time in my own greatest happiness.  This comes from understanding of psychology.  I know that I choose what emotional state I am.  I choose how to react to people.  If I get angry, it's my own fault.  I don't have to react to a situation by feeling anger.  That's my choice.  I find it's more productive to react to situations that would otherwise make me angry by instead finding a way to move forward into a solution for my problem.  Then it becomes a challenge.  Since I like challenges, it becomes fun.  Of course, these methods are aided by the fact that I do not have any chemical imbalances that require medication to stabilize.  Some people are incapable of using the "Johnny in his f-ing bubble" method without medication.

Quote from: "iSok"I think the world is shrouded in evil, and good only exists within our hearts.

It's interesting that you say this, because I've always felt like the exact opposite is true. The world always seemed inherently good, or neutral at worst. Of all the things in the world, living and non-living, the only ones I've seen to be capable of "evil" are humans.

Quote from: "iSok"What makes you happy? What is the source of your happiness? I hope some of you can define it, it's quite hard I understand.
(I hope you don't say: The new Philips Ambilight 3d 54 inch LED flatscreen)

Honestly, the ONLY thing that makes me truly happy is the company of close friends and family. I struggle with, I don't really want to say it's "depression" per se, but a sort of melancholy pretty regularly. Having that contact with the people I'm close to will make me snap out of it in an instant. People always ask me why I don't plan on moving away after college, and I always answer that I'd rather be close to my family than get a job at some impressive far-away place.

Quote from: "fester30"I agree with Edmund Dantes in Alexandre Dumas' The Count of Monte Cristo, "There is neither happiness nor misery in the world; there is only the comparison of one state with another, nothing more. He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness."

That is interesting, so we can experience only great happiness by experiencing severe suffering?
I have to agree though for a large part.

Quote from: "februarystars"It's interesting that you say this, because I've always felt like the exact opposite is true. The world always seemed inherently good, or neutral at worst. Of all the things in the world, living and non-living, the only ones I've seen to be capable of "evil" are humans.

I always like to think and view the world from the Islamic perspective, so far it has answered a lot of my questions, I am not yet dissapointed to say the least.
Many people would condemn me for this narrow-minded view, but I see it as a broad view. I'm just convinced of God's existence. This forum helped me to go from 2 on the Dawkins scale
to point 1 (I don't believe, I know). So by looking this way, I hope I can understand God's Way a bit more...

I think evil is very hard to define, same counts for good.
But I came to this point, on how to define evil.

Evil is that which we want to overcome.
So it's not neccesarily mainstream topics like: wars, murder and rape.
But also: Cancer and other diseases, environmental pollution, lack of knowledge, undesired behaviour (ego, arrogance, anger), doubt..etc..

These are all types of things we want too overcome, many of us know for example that we have a lot of anger inside of us.
Deep inside we know  that we have this problem and we want to change it but it's hard.

I think Good comes from our intention to overcome these problems.
Good does not neccesarily mean the result but the intention to overcome evil.
I also think that Good can be measured if we take a look at the context. |
Take the example of the girl who wanted people to pray for her father.
She wanted her father to overcome the evil inside him (cancer).
Her intention is important, because Good lies in intention, the result doesn't matter.

Quote from: "februarystars"So a friend of mine just posted on FaceBook:

QuoteI need everyone's help!!! Please pray for my grandfather. He has cancer in his back and another spot. He is one of the best people in the world so please pray!!! Thanks!

And while I feel really bad for her that her family is going through this, I can't help but think about the message in her plea. Her grandfather is such a good person, but has has developed cancer. Did God give him cancer? If he had won the lottery, it would have been a reward from God for being a good person. They would have thanked God for the gift.

But her grandfather didn't win the lottery. He got cancer. So the way to remedy this is to get as many people as possible to ask God to cure him. Does God not take into account that the grandfather was a good man whose good deeds are worthy of a healthy body? Or does this man's life balance on the results of a sort of American Idol type popularity contest where whichever sick person gets the most call-ins gets to stick around for another week? If he had nobody to pray for him, would his prospects be any different?

If he succumbs to the cancer, will they say it was just his time to go and that God had bigger plans than we mortals can comprehend? If he overcomes it, will they thank the doctors who have dedicated their lives to saving others' lives? Or will they just give all the credit to God, since after all, the grandfather was a good person?

I have been thinking about this very issue. My professor (an mid-60's Irish Catholic) tried to present "evidence" that dying patients who are prayed for survive longer than those who aren't, even if they don't know the prayer is happening. He didn't have any studies or anything, just said this happens... with his usual bias, so I don't mean to suggest I took it seriously, but this, along with people recently begging for prayer for Japan just got me thinking some obvious things.

Why do humans have to REMIND god (through praying) that people don't deserve suffering? What?? I suppose this is just more Calvinball and to discuss it insults mine and everyone's intelligence, but I really do try to tackle these logistical questions openly.

I suppose many theists would say that god is testing us (maybe???) and if we are humble and pray, god may make a miracle happen. Then it just goes back to god being a prick who tortures to teach lessons, at best (at worst just being a sadist or completely narcissistic) which is far from perfect, and the whole argument goes up in holy smoke  

Quote from: "Ulver"

Quote from: "februarystars"So a friend of mine just posted on FaceBook:

QuoteI need everyone's help!!! Please pray for my grandfather. He has cancer in his back and another spot. He is one of the best people in the world so please pray!!! Thanks!

And while I feel really bad for her that her family is going through this, I can't help but think about the message in her plea. Her grandfather is such a good person, but has has developed cancer. Did God give him cancer? If he had won the lottery, it would have been a reward from God for being a good person. They would have thanked God for the gift.

But her grandfather didn't win the lottery. He got cancer. So the way to remedy this is to get as many people as possible to ask God to cure him. Does God not take into account that the grandfather was a good man whose good deeds are worthy of a healthy body? Or does this man's life balance on the results of a sort of American Idol type popularity contest where whichever sick person gets the most call-ins gets to stick around for another week? If he had nobody to pray for him, would his prospects be any different?

If he succumbs to the cancer, will they say it was just his time to go and that God had bigger plans than we mortals can comprehend? If he overcomes it, will they thank the doctors who have dedicated their lives to saving others' lives? Or will they just give all the credit to God, since after all, the grandfather was a good person?

I have been thinking about this very issue. My professor (an mid-60's Irish Catholic) tried to present "evidence" that dying patients who are prayed for survive longer than those who aren't, even if they don't know the prayer is happening. He didn't have any studies or anything, just said this happens... with his usual bias, so I don't mean to suggest I took it seriously, but this, along with people recently begging for prayer for Japan just got me thinking some obvious things.

Why do humans have to REMIND god (through praying) that people don't deserve suffering? What?? I suppose this is just more Calvinball and to discuss it insults mine and everyone's intelligence, but I really do try to tackle these logistical questions openly.

I suppose many theists would say that god is testing us (maybe???) and if we are humble and pray, god may make a miracle happen. Then it just goes back to god being a prick who tortures to teach lessons, at best (at worst just being a sadist or completely narcissistic) which is far from perfect, and the whole argument goes up in holy smoke  

While we are on the topic.
American atheist (a surgeon) asks God for help, his daughter was about to die.

Watch from 4 min and 00 sec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J5_VETw ... ure=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J5_VETwfew&feature=relmfu)

I don't have sound at work, but I assume this is something of a traumatic conversion?

Just like the "Atheist converts to Christiantity" videos: significant other (newborn daughter in this case), is surely going to die, so the person (a guy in this case), who is a respected professional (a medical doctor for the eyes in this case), who is a skeptical atheist, randomly decides to pray just in case there is a god, the dying significant other miracously recovers, conveniently without any signs there was even a problem in the first place. Then spends time researching religion and converts to a religion (because iSok is posting it, I'm sure you can guess which religion it is), and writes books as if the money gained from selling the books doesn't even factor into the whole thing.

Quote from: "Davin"Just like the "Atheist converts to Christiantity" videos: significant other (newborn daughter in this case), is surely going to die, so the person (a guy in this case), who is a respected professional (a medical doctor for the eyes in this case), who is a skeptical atheist, randomly decides to pray just in case there is a god, the dying significant other miracously recovers, conveniently without any signs there was even a problem in the first place. Then spends time researching religion and converts to a religion (because iSok is posting it, I'm sure you can guess which religion it is), and writes books as if the money gained from selling the books doesn't even factor into the whole thing.

:P

Quote from: "Ulver":pop:
Mel Gibson directed this, too?

This is the sequel, it's called "The Passion of the Muhammad", and covers only the few days before Muhammad rides a horse into the sky.

Surprisingly, the story seems to copy the Rainbow Brite live action movie:
[youtube:2dkswopl]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofRF5vpFpl0[/youtube:2dkswopl]

Quote from: "Davin"This is the sequel, it's called "The Passion of the Muhammad", and covers only the few days before Muhammad rides a horse into the sky.

Surprisingly, the story seems to copy the Rainbow Brite live action movie:
[youtube:hx744vv4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofRF5vpFpl0[/youtube:hx744vv4]

:P)

I wonder, though, if you believe god did intervene for this man, why so many prayers go unanswered?

Quote from: "Ulver"lol I see, thank you for the clarification!
(I love The Soup)

I guess, in seriousness, to iSok I would say I believe fear certainly changes the structure of one's logic, but atheists are so unlikely to think the way this man has, that I'm prone to thinking these cases are bs. (See there we go again )

I wonder, though, if you believe god did intervene for this man, why so many prayers go unanswered?

They all get answered.  It's just that sometimes the answer is no, and sometimes the answer is yes.  That the answer happens to be yes about the same amount of times as random chance is not a simple coincidence but a miracle of God's camouflage, else you wouldn't have the awesome luxury of only having faith to go by if you wanted to believe in God.

Quote from: "fester30"They all get answered.  It's just that sometimes the answer is no, and sometimes the answer is yes.  That the answer happens to be yes about the same amount of times as random chance is not a simple coincidence but a miracle of God's camouflage, else you wouldn't have the awesome luxury of only having faith to go by if you wanted to believe in God.

Bah, and here I thought some of god's greatest gifts were unanswered prayers.  

Quote from: "Ulver"Bah, and here I thought some of god's greatest gifts were unanswered prayers.  

You must read the fine print:
The answer is a general summarization, Indiviudual answers may vary.

I have heard that before, that by answering the prayer with a "no", one learns some trait (like patience) and develops a better character and teaches them (or people around them that suffer), a lesson. Therefore it is better to get an answer of no (even if you asked to cure a very painful cancer on a child or at least asked to remove the suffering while the kid died), because people are more blessed that way.

Of course I've heard many different explanations and remember almost all of them.

Quote from: "Ulver"

Quote from: "Davin"This is the sequel, it's called "The Passion of the Muhammad", and covers only the few days before Muhammad rides a horse into the sky.

Surprisingly, the story seems to copy the Rainbow Brite live action movie:
[youtube:17tjmxvr]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofRF5vpFpl0[/youtube:17tjmxvr]

:P)

I wonder, though, if you believe god did intervene for this man, why so many prayers go unanswered?

haha, yeah the question is indeed why do so many prayers get unanswered..?
Could be for different reasons.

But I think God is not some personal Guardian, who is going to stick up for you.
We're more in a world where the human will is important.
God is more a Being which we have to grow towards, every religion is doing this.
If you sincerely ask for guidance, I think He will guide you.
Some may worship 360.000.000 gods like Hinduism, but they also want to grow towards One God, get near Him.

Nonetheless, I do think prayers get answered.
But also, an answering should have a certain extend.
I can wish for your death, but should God answer that? I guess no.
So it has a certain limit.......

The question here is: To what extend should the answering of a prayer be allowed?

You for example are not happy with the limit, you want too extend it.
The girl for example wants her father to recover from terminal cancer, but on what purpose?

He might live longer and be more happy, well eventually he's going to die.
The cancer itself is a law, which makes our developping more easy.
If we constantly had these miraculous recoveries, then medecine in it's essence built on the intellect of man
would crumble. It would have no idea what to do next, because they are constantly intervened.

I think in some cases answering, destroys the Laws here for man. Like the laws of gravity or thermodynamics.
Made to study, to understand the world around us and trying to make sense of it.

We pray for avoiding the punishments of those laws.
If that would constantly happen, then mankind would do nothing and except pray all day long.
Naturally the answering must have a certain extend.
Man always wants more and more, nothing is enough.
Eventually it would end in ridiculous situations like science trying to observe how God does something miraculously.
Insteaf of what science should do, is to study the laws created by God.

Qur'an [17:67] - "When a calamity befalls you on the sea, all those whom you invoke forsake you except Him. But when He delivers you safely to the shore you turn away from Him, for man is indeed most thankless."
The Qur'an was written in the desert, but talks about the sea.
Nowadays, we do exactly when a plane comes crashing down.
We scream for God, but when it's over, we consider it as luck, many of us do this.
Also notice in the verse that man will always call for One God, and will not think about calling for which God. (a proof of monotheism).

Just take the example of this guy.
Who believed that God saved his daughter's life, by promising to find a religion
suited for him. So what is he doing?

He spends 7 years, searching for a religion in Christianity.
He litteraly visits every church, every stream of Christianity.
But he is not impressed. After these 7 years, his family might think that he has lost it.
Till he comes across Islam, he continues to study it. And eventually he converts.

What does his family do? His wife hires an attorney, wants a divorce, because he has turned into a terrorist.
His parents no longer want to talk with him, his kids don't like him anymore. His colleagues despise him.
His whole world has crumbled down. Why? Because somehow he believes that God saved his daughter 10 years ago.

But after this, he somehow marries again and gets children once again and resettles.

Qur'an [94:6] - "Most certainly, there is ease with hardship."

Maybe that God thought, that this guy was worth it.
I have to confess, if I was this guy, I would give up after barely a few month's.
And see my daughter's sudden recovery as just coincidence, many of you would do the same.

@iSok: How you know that the god answers any prayers?

Quote from: "Davin"@iSok: How you know that the god answers any prayers?

We muslims believe in fate and free-will.

Free will comes from our intention, not the consequention.
We have the will to do something, but the result is in the hands of God.

I think, in certain aspects of my life, I just have to trust that it was God who has answered my prayer.

The reason that I pray is to go more near God, it's a way of stepping 5 times a day out of this world.
To leave everything behind. I'll give you an example.

A few weeks ago at uni, I was praying at the mosque (arranged for students), and asked sincerely for strength to talk with a friend about a difficult topic.
I had difficulties with this topic for already a few weeks.
So after prayer, I went back to the library to fetch a few books. While I was there, the same friend comes to me, who was already sitting there.
And starts talking with me about the difficult topic. So we talked for nearly 3 hours, discussed a lot of things. I felt relieved.

Then went back to the mosque for the 3rd prayer of the day. And when I was finished, I instinctively asked once again for strength to talk with my friend.
But when I did that, I shivered. I realised that I already did that and in the middle of two prayers.

The amazing thing was actually that I somehow came up with the plan to get a few books from the library before continuing my project.


Can I say that it was just coincidence? I could.
Can I say it was an answering? I could.


(On a side note: you don't have to politely write 'iSok' each time, 'isok' is fine enough. The name means: "in Search of knowledge". Somehow I gave it a capital S, looked cool to me.)