Happy Atheist Forum

I've recently got into the TV show Dexter. If you're not familiar with it you should at least give it a try. It will draw you in. Promise.

A common theme in the show seems to be moral ambiguity and that everyone is both good and evil. This seems like a very cultural Christian view, almost like original sin. I'm sure that everyone pretends to be something they're not at times and that we all have the inner instinct to inflict harm which sometimes surfaces to our thoughts in anger, but that doesn't mean one ever acts on it. I have hard time believing everyone has a Dark Passenger.

Oh and I'm only on season 2 so don't spoil anything for me... or I will kill you!!!  :)

I watched the first season and loved it, but I no longer have access to it.

Quote from: "Sophus"Oh and I'm only on season 2 so don't spoil anything for me... or I will kill you!!!  

Just be prepared to be really sad in season 3 when the busload of orphans drives off a cliff.

But no, amazing show. I can't wait for the newest episode tonight.

Dexter has an urge to inflict harm because it makes him feel a high, and the rest of his life is numb.
I don't have such a dark passenger, causing harm gives me no joy.
I find it interesting people are able to accept a psychopath as the hero of the story.
Does the satisfaction of seeing the villain punished allow people to accept a truly fucked up character?
Do we enjoy vicariously meeting out the justice?
Does the catchy intro tune and Dexter's impeccable personal hygiene excuse the odd murder?
He is good with the kids.

I do enjoy Dexter and I don't usually watch crime shows, Life On Mars is the only other crime series I've watched in years.

Nah.  I vicariously enjoy inflicting painful death on people.  Fuck I need to get some money and netflix that motherfucker.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Dexter has an urge to inflict harm because it makes him feel a high, and the rest of his life is numb.
I don't have such a dark passenger, causing harm gives me no joy.
I find it interesting people are able to accept a psychopath as the hero of the story.
Does the satisfaction of seeing the villain punished allow people to accept a truly fucked up character?
Do we enjoy vicariously meeting out the justice?
Does the catchy intro tune and Dexter's impeccable personal hygiene excuse the odd murder?
He is good with the kids.

I do enjoy Dexter and I don't usually watch crime shows, Life On Mars is the only other crime series I've watched in years.

What if he only shot them instead of butchering them, would you feel different? The way I see it he is actually not that much different from other "heros" on TV other than that he enjoys the kill and has serial killer rituals. He's a serial killer who kills serial killers, therefore saves innocent lives.

Quote from: "Ihateyoumike"when the busload of orphans drives off a cliff.

I'm SO getting it!  :devil:

Quote from: "Sophus"What if he only shot them instead of butchering them, would you feel different? The way I see it he is actually not that much different from other "heros" on TV other than that he enjoys the kill and has serial killer rituals. He's a serial killer who kills serial killers, therefore saves innocent lives.

I wouldn't want to know someone who enjoyed killing people by gun, knife or sabotaged school bus.
I wouldn't want to know some who enjoyed killing chickens, even though dead chickens are useful.
The plot says Dexter knows the villains are guilty, in real life this would be questionable.
Dexter doesn't seem to put any effort into gathering evidence to help the incompetent legal system do the job.

If you knew a Dexter would you tell the police?  
He wont hurt you, he has a code.
How about police who fabricate evidence?

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"Dexter doesn't seem to put any effort into gathering evidence to help the incompetent legal system do the job.

Of course not.  If they were convicted, Dex wouldn't get to kill them.  He gathered evidence (at least in the first season he did), he just kept it to himself.

QuoteIf you knew a Dexter would you tell the police?  

I'm not sure.  Maybe.

QuoteHow about police who fabricate evidence?

Fabricated evidence isn't evidence.  Dexter gathered real evidence so that he would know a person was guilty.  Fabricating evidence doesn't help knowledge to be gained, it merely makes someone appear guilty regardless of whether they really are.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"Fabricated evidence isn't evidence.  Dexter gathered real evidence so that he would know a person was guilty.  Fabricating evidence doesn't help knowledge to be gained, it merely makes someone appear guilty regardless of whether they really are.

We have all seen the shows, the cop knows the bad guy did it, we know it and we know he'll do it again.
So why not plant an incriminating blood stained shirt?
But the problem is if too much power is given to a person it tends to get abused, not just for the good.
So many of those shows had the theme that an individual didn't have the right to "take justice into their own hands"
Dexter seems to have broken that convention.

I had a guy tell me once he came into a room and found a housemate molesting his children, in theory at least I think making that person dead, out of site of the children of course, but without delay would have been the best thing to do.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"We have all seen the shows, the cop knows the bad guy did it, we know it and we know he'll do it again.
So why not plant an incriminating blood stained shirt?

It seems to me that a cop who KNOWS that the bad guy did it has evidence.  I've seen shows where the evidence is presented and the jury fails to convict, in which case fabricated evidence probably won't help and is potentially something by which the defense can plant reasonable doubt, making planted evidence more detrimental than helpful.  The alternative to this is the "gut feeling" a cop has.  While this kind of intuition is often right, the cop doesn't KNOW the bad guy did it.  In the context of a fictional TV show, the cop could be psychic or something, in which case I could understand the premise of he KNOWS it, but can't prove it so he fabricates evidence, but I doubt that would have the same kind of fan appeal that Dexter does.  In real situations, however, I would consider the evidence fabricator to be dishonest, as he doesn't know without the evidence, whereas the serial killer hunter would at least be honest (assuming he gathered enough evidence to know his guys were guilty).

QuoteBut the problem is if too much power is given to a person it tends to get abused, not just for the good.
So many of those shows had the theme that an individual didn't have the right to "take justice into their own hands"
Dexter seems to have broken that convention.

It's mindless entertainment.  In real life, nobody does have the right to take justice in their own hands, but rights aren't always congruent to morality.  I would say a guy killing serial killers is outside of his rights and deserving of prison, but that doesn't mean he's fulfilling his desire to kill in an immoral way.

QuoteI had a guy tell me once he came into a room and found a housemate molesting his children, in theory at least I thing making that person dead, out of site of the children of course, but without delay would have been the best thing to do.

Had it been me who personally saw someone molesting children, I probably would have killed the molester.  Were I to go to prison for it, I would understand and accept my sentence, but I would still feel morally justified in killing the guy.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"Had it been me who personally saw someone molesting children, I probably would have killed the molester.  Were I to go to prison for it, I would understand and accept my sentence, but I would still feel morally justified in killing the guy.

I don't think you would go to jail if you acted straight away.
The courts may have improved since I formed this idea, they probably treat kids better, maybe they give video evidence and don't have to face their abuser, but I'll stick with it for now.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"I don't think you would go to jail if you acted straight away.

In America, unless I killed him right in front of the kids, it would be premeditated murder, which is a life sentence.  Even if I killed him in front of the kids, I'd be charged, but it's the only way I'd potentially get off by jury misvote.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"I don't think you would go to jail if you acted straight away.

In America, unless I killed him right in front of the kids, it would be premeditated murder, which is a life sentence.  Even if I killed him in front of the kids, I'd be charged, but it's the only way I'd potentially get off by jury misvote.

Jury nullification is your friend.

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"

Quote from: "PoopShoot"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"I don't think you would go to jail if you acted straight away.

In America, unless I killed him right in front of the kids, it would be premeditated murder, which is a life sentence.  Even if I killed him in front of the kids, I'd be charged, but it's the only way I'd potentially get off by jury misvote.

Jury nullification is your friend.

Explain.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"I don't think you would go to jail if you acted straight away.

In America, unless I killed him right in front of the kids, it would be premeditated murder, which is a life sentence.  Even if I killed him in front of the kids, I'd be charged, but it's the only way I'd potentially get off by jury misvote.

I expect you would be charged, but juries are people and I don't think they would convict you.
But if I'm wrong, what sort of cake should I bake for you?

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"I expect you would be charged, but juries are people and I don't think they would convict you.

If I ran off with him somewhere and had time to think about it?  Yeah they would.

QuoteBut if I'm wrong, what sort of cake should I bake for you?

Keep the cake, I'll need some soap on a rope.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Jury nullification is your friend.

Explain.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... ation.html (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/zenger/nullification.html)

People who suffer extreme trauma at such a young age are almost invariably "messed up".  Dexter's need to kill was honed and given direction because he had an awesome foster father who understood his needs.  For Dexter, murder is heroin.  [spoiler:2zxtmfc5]Even though Harry had some problems of his own, without him, Dexter would have turned out like Rudy.[/spoiler:2zxtmfc5]

Quote from: "PoopShoot"Had it been me who personally saw someone molesting children, I probably would have killed the molester.  Were I to go to prison for it, I would understand and accept my sentence, but I would still feel morally justified in killing the guy.

The interesting thing is that if Dexter's angelic choir victim from episode one were only a child molester Dexter would not have felt justified in killing him. Harry's Code only permits him to kill those who have killed and will likely kill again. It's sort of odd because it makes you catch yourself wanting Dexter to kill the complete jerks, but he refrains from doing so because they don't meet his "standards".

It's hard for me to say molesters or rapists, whether it be of children or adults, should be given the death penalty when they haven't actually killed anyone, but I'm for life in prison for them. It prevents them from harming anyone else and that's what matters most.

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"The plot says Dexter knows the villains are guilty, in real life this would be questionable.
Dexter doesn't seem to put any effort into gathering evidence to help the incompetent legal system do the job.

If you knew a Dexter would you tell the police?
He wont hurt you, he has a code.
How about police who fabricate evidence?

Dexter hasn't fabricated evidence in order to justify a kill in any of the shows I've seen. He did do it once to frame someone for drugs use though.

If I knew Dexter and knew he was a killer I don't think I would call the police. There would be more dead bodies if it weren't for him.

Quote from: "Sophus"It's hard for me to say molesters or rapists, whether it be of children or adults, should be given the death penalty when they haven't actually killed anyone, but I'm for life in prison for them. It prevents them from harming anyone else and that's what matters most.

If they belong out of society, I see no reason not to execute them.  The only reason I even support life in prison at all is because there are too many questionable lifers.  You can free a lifer, you can't unexecute someone.  Regardless, a rapist or molester has taken a life, even if they didn't kill their victim.  The psychological trauma for a rape victim rarely, if ever, heals and the psychological trauma to a molested child is also irreparable and often creates a new molester.  Bottom line for me is that if they're not able to ever return to society, I see no reason to feed, clothe and house them.

Quote from: "PoopShoot"

Quote from: "Sophus"It's hard for me to say molesters or rapists, whether it be of children or adults, should be given the death penalty when they haven't actually killed anyone, but I'm for life in prison for them. It prevents them from harming anyone else and that's what matters most.

If they belong out of society, I see no reason not to execute them.  The only reason I even support life in prison at all is because there are too many questionable lifers.  You can free a lifer, you can't unexecute someone.  Regardless, a rapist or molester has taken a life, even if they didn't kill their victim.  The psychological trauma for a rape victim rarely, if ever, heals and the psychological trauma to a molested child is also irreparable and often creates a new molester.  Bottom line for me is that if they're not able to ever return to society, I see no reason to feed, clothe and house them.

Still not convinced they're equal. If I had to choose between being raped or killed I'd take the former. Well, there's my lovely thought for the day.

Has anyone read the Hannibal series? I've only seen the movies but from what I can tell he almost has a code of his own doesn't he? Seems like Hannibal the Cannibal only eats jerks.

Quote from: "Sophus"Still not convinced they're equal.

Equal or not, removal from society puts a drain on that society.  A society the person has betrayed.  People shouldn't have to pay to feed clothe and house lifers, whether their crimes are as serious as someone else's or not.

QuoteIf I had to choose between being raped or killed I'd take the former.

I'm thinking I'd rather have the latter, myself.

when I first saw this topic I thought you were referring to me directly. Well I guess I should say something here being the Darkpassenger of the forum. Obviously I am obsessed with the show and think it is the best thing since Fraggle Rock. In the show I when they refer to your dark passenger to me it's just a way of expressing our Deepest, darkest, horrifying thoughts and feelings. Letting your dark passenger out is probably not a good idea for anyone, as we have seen in the show. Its uncontrollable, unpredictable, and addictive and If in the hands of anyone that thinks they can control it, it may be too late for them. Well that all I got to say, Enjoy the show It only gets better with every season Which is rare for any series.

I wasn't aware we had a dark passenger on the forum. Sorry for the confusion.

It's nice to know the show gets better. How many seasons are they planning to make, do you by chance know?

Quote from: "Sophus"lol I wasn't aware we had a dark passenger on the forum. Sorry for the confusion.

It's nice to know the show gets better. How many seasons are they planning to make, do you by chance know?

There are 5 books...I would think that 5 seasons would just about cover it.